Author Topic: how many lies were told? (Read 102465 times)

BBBOY · « **Reply #60 on:** Aug 16, 2006, 10:23 PM »

From the short story: "Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable-admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears-rose around them.... and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

Dear God there are times I can't stand the pain of it. :\'(

greenfrog · « **Reply #61 on:** Aug 17, 2006, 02:26 AM »

Quote from: BBBOY on Aug 16, 2006, 10:23 PM

From the short story: "Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable-admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears-rose around them.... and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

Dear God there are times I can't stand the pain of it. :\'(

*Gives BBBOY a big hug*

That passage always tears me up :\'( :\'( :\'(

Fiona-Berlin · « **Reply #62 on:** Sep 26, 2006, 09:50 AM »

And what is with the lie that Ennis told to Alma?

Alma : Is he somebody you cowboyed with?

..
Ennis: We was fishing buddys

I mean did Ennis in this moment thinking obout “fishing-trips” with Jack in the future?

Can`t belive that.

welshwitch · « **Reply #63 on:** Sep 26, 2006, 10:35 AM »

Ennis owned fishing equipment so presumably fishing was a hobby ( or even a means of combining an interest with bringing home food?) so it was plausible if he went fishing that he might have fished with other people and why not explain Jack as an acquaintance formed that way? Still a lie, or course.

tpe · « **Reply #64 on:** Sep 26, 2006, 10:57 AM »

Perhaps I am missing something, but what would he have revealed had he said that he used to cowboy with Jack. He could still claim later that they fished together.

I suspect he just didn't want to reveal anything to Alma -- most especially their time together in BBM. Had he answered yes, "where?" might have been the next question...

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #65 on:** Sep 26, 2006, 11:11 AM »

Interesting thoughts, tpe, and I agree with you there.

I think it was in part that his time with Jack on Brokeback was too private, too sacrosanct for him to speak of it to anyone, especially Alma.

And as you said, where would the questions lead if he admitted where he knew Jack from? Wouldn't she wonder, since they married shortly after he came down from Brokeback, why he'd never before mentioned the name of the man he had spent the summer working with? That alone might have had her curious immediately. $:-\\$ He must have deliberately kept any details of that summer job from Alma all those years. Safer now to say "fishing buddy", I would think.

tpe · « **Reply #66 on:** Sep 26, 2006, 03:54 PM »

Quote from: MississaugaRed on Sep 26, 2006, 11:11 AM

Interesting thoughts, tpe, and I agree with you there.

I think it was in part that his time with Jack on Brokeback was too private, too sacrosanct for him to speak of it to anyone, especially Alma.

And as you said, where would the questions lead if he admitted where he knew Jack from? Wouldn't she wonder, since they married shortly after he came down from Brokeback, why he'd never before mentioned the name of the man he had spent the summer working with? That alone might have had her curious immediately. $:-\\$ He must have deliberately kept any details of that summer job from Alma all those years. Safer now to say "fishing buddy", I would think.

It did seem to me that Ennis went out of his way NOT to let Alma get to know Jack. I have also wondered whether he thought that their affection for each other would have been too obvious for Alma. Did he not trust Jack enough to keep certain details?

My suspicion is that Ennis knew it could get complicated -- making Jack and him agree on a "story" when dealing with Alma. This is quite natural. Many an affair has been exposed because of subtle inconsistencies...

welshwitch · « **Reply #67 on:** Sep 26, 2006, 11:43 PM »

By contrast, and maybe later, Jack tells Lureen about Brokeback Mountain. He has to come up with some story to explain his times away, I guess, though going to see his parents would have covered it - Lureen never meets them so there'd be no chance of her finding out that when he was away he hadn't spent as long with them as he said - so he uses the same cover story as Ennis does, but Jack also says he wants his ashes scattered on BBM, which is a way of indicating that it's a special place for him. Other than letting her n=know what the relationship is between himself and Ennis, Jack comes nearer telling her the truth than Ennis does with Alma. In both cases, what they say or don't say is true to character.

tpe · « **Reply #68 on:** Sep 27, 2006, 07:25 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Sep 26, 2006, 11:43 PM

By contrast, and maybe later, Jack tells Lureen about Brokeback Mountain. He has to come up with some story to explain his times away, I guess, though going to see his parents would have covered it - Lureen never meets them so there'd be no chance of her finding out that when he was away he hadn't spent as long with them as he said - so he uses the same cover story as Ennis does, but Jack also says he wants his ashes scattered on BBM, which is a way of indicating that it's a special place for him. Other than letting her n=know what the relationship is between himself and Ennis, Jack comes nearer telling her the truth than Ennis does with Alma. In both cases, what they say or don't say is true to character.

It is indeed interesting to note that Jack mentioned Brokeback to Lureen -- but he probably never associated it in LUreen's mind with the fishing buddy. It is interesting -- but entirely consistent -- that Lureen did not ask further questions about Brokeback Mountain to Jack, and assumed that it was some pretend place. It is entirely consistent with her character: to let such personal details go unexplained and concentrate on the family business.

rick65 · « **Reply #69 on:** Sep 27, 2006, 10:42 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Sep 27, 2006, 07:25 AM

Quote from: welshwitch on Sep 26, 2006, 11:43 PM
By contrast, and maybe later, Jack tells Lureen about Brokeback Mountain. He has to come up with some story to explain his times away, I guess, though going to see his parents would have covered it - Lureen never meets them so there'd be no chance of her finding out that when he was away he hadn't spent as long with them as he said - so he uses the same cover story as Ennis does, but Jack also says he wants his ashes scattered on BBM, which is a way of indicating that it's a special place for him. Other than letting her n=know what the relationship is between himself and Ennis, Jack comes nearer telling her the truth than Ennis does with Alma. In both cases, what they say or don't say is true to character.

It is indeed interesting to note that Jack mentioned Brokeback to Lureen -- but he probably never associated it in LUreen's mind with the fishing buddy. It is interesting -- but entirely consistent -- that Lureen did not ask further questions about Brokeback Mountain to Jack, and assumed that it was some pretend place. It is entirely consistent with her character: to let such personal details go unexplained and concentrate on the family business.

I suppose it was Ennis who told the bigger truth when he said to Lureen, "We used to work up in Brokeback one summer." Perhaps that was a big enough hint to Lureen, if she was able to pick up the clues,, about the relationship Jack and Ennis maintained. About why this "pretend place" was the happiest place on Earth for Jack. It might also provide a reason for why she said, "about the ashes, I mean." to Ennis. She knew he dreamed of being up in Brokeback, and this call from Ennis gave her sufficient evidence to assume Jack really wanted to be with his fishing buddy, even after his passing.

tpe · « **Reply #70 on:** Sep 28, 2006, 09:00 AM »

Quote from: rick65 on Sep 27, 2006, 10:42 PM

I suppose it was Ennis who told the bigger truth when he said to Lureen, "We used to work up in Brokeback one summer." Perhaps that was a big enough hint to Lureen, if she was able to pick up the clues,, about the relationship Jack and Ennis maintained. About why this "pretend place" was the happiest place on Earth for Jack. It might also provide a reason for why she said, "about the ashes, I mean." to Ennis. She knew he dreamed of being up in Brokeback, and this call from Ennis gave her sufficient evidence to assume Jack really wanted to be with his fishing buddy, even after his passing.

I do agree, rick65. I don't think Jack would have told Lureen that Brokeback was the place where he met his "fishing buddy". When Ennis mentioned this, I am sure everything fell into place in Lureen's mind and she finally understood why if was Jack's favorite place, and who Ennis really was.

Most of all, I do agree on the significance of Lureen's last comment: "about the ashes, I mean."

welshwitch · « **Reply #71 on:** Sep 28, 2006, 10:47 AM »

Whether or not Lureen loved Jack by the end, at least she realized the truth - that Brokeback was where he wanted to be, even if only after he was dead - and told the truth about his wishes to Ennis. In fact neither of the women tells lies; it's the men who do - another subversion of the stereotype that women are devious and deceitful while men are honest and straight-forward. Actually Jack doesn't exactly lie about the fishing trips - he just doesn't tell the whole truth - it's Ennis who tells a deliberate lie about how he knew the "fishing buddy".

jpwagoneer1964 · « **Reply #72 on:** Sep 28, 2006, 08:39 PM »

I'm likely im camp alone on this but I believed it was the ranch formans wife. Movie Jack, very striking would always get the attention of the ladies, he would not have started it. Maybe LeShaun, maybe not. i just don't think Jack would lie to Ennis.

greenfrog · « **Reply #73 on:** Sep 28, 2006, 11:35 PM »

Quote from: jpwagoneer1964 on Sep 28, 2006, 08:39 PM

I'm likely im camp alone on this but I believed it was the ranch formans wife. Movie Jack, very striking would always get the attention of the ladies, he would not have started it. Maybe LeShaun, maybe not. i just don't think Jack would lie to Ennis.

I can't really picture Jack and LaShawn having an affair. I mean . . it's LaShawn

In fact, I can't really picture Jack with anyone except Ennis :\'( :\'( :\'(

Patriot1 · « **Reply #74 on:** Sep 28, 2006, 11:37 PM »

Quote from: jpwagoneer1964 on Sep 28, 2006, 08:39 PM

I'm likely im camp alone on this but I believed it was the ranch formans wife. Movie Jack, very striking would always get the attention of the ladies, he would not have started it. Maybe LeShaun, maybe not. i just don't think Jack would lie to Ennis.

Sorry jpwagoneer1964, but Jack lied to Ennis directly or by omission many time in this movie.

tpe · « **Reply #75 on:** Sep 29, 2006, 07:26 AM »

Quote from: jpwagoneer1964 on Sep 28, 2006, 08:39 PM

I'm likely im camp alone on this but I believed it was the ranch formans wife. Movie Jack, very striking would always get the attention of the ladies, he would not have started it. Maybe LeShaun, maybe not. i just don't think Jack would lie to Ennis.

I do think the movie is deliberately ambiguous about this. Although I think this was really a reference to Randall, I would have to admit that Jack could have been referring to an affair with Randall, or with LaShawn, or with both. THe ambiguity hightens the overall tension of the viewer as he or she tries to read what is happening beneath the surface.

Fiona-Berlin · « **Reply #76 on:** Oct 01, 2006, 07:52 AM »

Ennis: Two guy`s living together? No way!

Hey, and what is with Jim Newton and Pete Wilkey from the “Broken Wheel Ranch”?
Fury the black mustang, you remember?

Two guy´s and a ranch, they even got a kid (Joey)

And nobody had a bad thought obout it.

tpe · « **Reply #77 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 08:01 AM »

Quote from: Fiona-Berlin on Oct 01, 2006, 07:52 AM

Ennis: Two guy`s living together? No way!

Hey, and what is with Jim Newton and Pete Wilkey from the “Broken Wheel Ranch”?
Fury the black mustang, you remember?

Two guy´s and a ranch, they even got a kid (Joey)

And nobody had a bad thought obout it.

Interesting thought. But I do think it depends on the individual's experiences. With what Ennis had to go through and see when he was 9, I am sure he was convinced that what he said was the plain truth.

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #78 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 08:18 AM »

Quote from: Fiona-Berlin on Oct 01, 2006, 07:52 AM

Ennis: Two guy`s living together? No way!

Hey, and what is with Jim Newton and Pete Wilkey from the “Broken Wheel Ranch”?
Fury the black mustang, you remember?

Two guy´s and a ranch, they even got a kid (Joey)

And nobody had a bad thought obout it.

interesting .. I think for Ennis though it would be the perceived bad thoughts that would bother him whether actual or not. And seems that his only frame of reference for two men ranching up together didn't end so well. We never hear either of them offer up an example that ended well, at least.

I'm not familiar with the story you're referencing, Fiona-Berlin, were these men just friends or lovers too?? I guess if two guys were ranching together who weren't in a relationship, they likely wouldn't give it a second thought? Would two straight men in that situation worry that people would think they were gay (queer)?

It's a different concept for Ennis, I think, because he and Jack would be trying to hide something. They are lovers, so Ennis is already predisposed to think that it's a natural conclusion for others to come to. Maybe he was right to be worried, 'cause usually the harder you work to hide things from people, the more suspicious people are that you have something to hide. It's one of those vicious cycle things, sometimes, I think. Ennis might project feelings of "guilt", and people who are sensitive to what others are feeling might start to wonder what was making him uncomfortable. Just speculating. It may be true that two men could ranch together without drawing the wrong kind of attention, but Ennis believed it impossible. So is his statement a lie if he believed the truth of what he said??

welshwitch · « **Reply #79 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 09:24 AM »

I wonder how common it would have been for two men to run a ranch together without having wives on hand to do the cooking and all the rest? Ennis is a conventional charwacer - presumably he's want to look "normal" to the outside world and there's no way he could do that living on a ranch with Jack in his opinion, nor could he go into a kind of parnership with Jack, the two wives being included! And I expect he thinks, and he's right too, that if the two of them did set up together, given the circumstances and the fact that they would be carrying on a physical and emotional relationship, it would be very hard to hide that long-term. I don;t think he's lying about this - I just think he can't envision it, the only example he seems to know being Earl and Rich who were apparently tough but nevertheless one of them ended up beaten to death.

There's also firmly embedded in his mind the fact that his father was so convinced that being queer was wrong that he took his two sons to see what he considered its rightful consequences, thus living with Jack would be against everything his father believed, and apparently at least some of the people in the society he grew up in. there's too much of a weight of disappoval for him to cope with - he really does believe that two men can't live together.

Still, you have to wonder wy he never changes - society changed so fat from the 60s to the 70s and 80s. Even in Wyoming there must have been some progress, and given better knowledge of the outside world some sense that there were other places where they might have found a more tolerant environment.

Fiona-Berlin · « **Reply #80 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 09:27 AM »

My thougt is, Ennis was wrong.
There was a way
But Ennis was to scared from the things he saw as he was 9
But there was a way.
Two guys livin together, have a ranch – it could have worked

Sorry for my bad english – I am just a stupid german girl, but I hope you understands my posts

I try my best to translate in english what I think in german.

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #81 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 09:33 AM »

Fiona-Berlin, you are not a "stupid" anything, and you make yourself understood just fine!

Thank you for taking the time to do the translation from German to English. We are happy to hear your thoughts.

Yes, I understand what you mean. Two men ranching together might actually have been possible under certain conditions. But Ennis believed there was no way for them to live together; his belief that it was impossible prevented him from taking the chance.

Like you said ... he was scared.

Fiona-Berlin · « **Reply #82 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 09:44 AM »

Thank you MississaugaRed

for saying my english is not to bad

and I am happy that you understand what I mean.

welshwitch · « **Reply #83 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 11:09 AM »

If I had to post in German, the total wouldn't have got to 30, never mind 3130! This is a great place to practice, anyway, Fiona-Berlin.

tpe · « **Reply #84 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 07:48 AM »

Quote from: Fiona-Berlin on Oct 02, 2006, 09:27 AM

My thougt is, Ennis was wrong.
There was a way
But Ennis was to scared from the things he saw as he was 9
But there was a way.
Two guys livin together, have a ranch – it could have worked

Sorry for my bad english – I am just a stupid german girl, but I hope you understands my posts

I try my best to translate in english what I think in german.

Fiona-Berlin, from someone like me who took German for 2 years and lost it as fast as he learned it, you put me to shame. No need to apologize. You made yourself perfectly understood.

I am sure there was a way. Jack seemed to have thought there was a way. It is the tragedy of this story that Ennis could not bring himself to see possibilities.

So when you reference "two guys living together, no way" as a lie, I must say that I agree with you in that this was certainly not true (no matter what the cost was -- as Jack must have realized), although Ennis probably was also victim to the lie.

HLJG · « **Reply #85 on:** Jan 01, 2007, 12:46 PM »

This is definitely a complicated question of how many lies were told, and the reasons behind the lies.
I agree that Jack 'withheld information' from Ennis--to protect him. For example--he didn't tell Ennis what Aguirre said about the two of them 'stemming the rose'. Jack also didn't tell Ennis about sleeping with other men, both before and after he met him, as well as in Mexico. This would have devastated Ennis. In their final 'goodbye' Jack lets it slip out--about going somewhere 'warm--like Mexico'. Upon hearing this Ennis confronts Jack by asking if he has been to Mexico (inferring for sex with men). Jack is pissed, at Ennis cancelling their August get-together--and says that their relationship has become a 'goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation'--that he can't 'make it on a couple of high altitude fucks ', etc. So he says , in anger, 'yeah--I been to Mexico'. ^This is the first time Ennis is told point blank that Jack sleeps with other men. This must have floored him--and he says out of depression and overwhelming sadness 'why don't you just let me be?'

As for the 'ranchhand's wife' that Jack says he has been with, and may get shot over, by 'her' husband or Lureen----to me this was a made up story. Jack wasn't sleeping with any woman, (save Lureen from time to time, if that). He said he 'needed' sex with men. In the movie they allude to the idea that Randall and Jack hook up--and outside the dancehall, Randall invites jack to the cabin, etc. I don't know if I buy this either.
It was added to the movie--and is unsettling to me. Perhaps Jack has started up an affair with Randall, since he sees Ennis so infrequently. Jack figured in mid 1970's that Ennis' divorce meant that they would now be together. When he learned from Ennis that this is NOT gonna happen--he leaves and cries on the long drive back. His expectations were blown outta the water. He is floored.

In Ennis' mind, if he truly believed that it could work--that he and Jack could have lived together as partners, he would have done it. He knew this was an impossibility. He , himself said he wouldn't be surprised if his own father wasn't involved in the brutal killing of the older gay man in the ditch. Ennis must have been terrified of his father--and bringing Ennis ,as a child to see the dead body was terrifying to Ennis and left an indelible fear in his heart.

tpe · « **Reply #86 on:** Jan 02, 2007, 09:29 AM »

HLJG, welcome.

Although the movie added these unsettling details, I do have to say that the short story implies as much when John Twist reveals Jack's plans to Ennis and when Jack confessed obliquely to an affair (with the ranch neighbor's wife -- certainly a suble cover-up).

Finally, I should note that if everyone pre-ordains everything an impossibility, then nothing will ever happen. I think Ennis thinking a sweet life to be an impossibility does not mean that it is so. After all, which is a worse fate: Earl's or Ennis's? At least Earl lived a life of love with Rich. There are worse things than death which, after all, comes to us all.

HLJG · « **Reply #87 on:** Jan 02, 2007, 01:56 PM »

Agreed. I think that Ennis would keep things just as they were with Jack. The 'impossibility' wou;ld be for the two of them to live together. He knew he couldn't 'fix' it, so he was 'standin it'--and for as long as he could ride it.
I still don't get a strong handle on what John Twist told Ennis. The more I think about it, though, I see how Jack really may have spoke of moving up there with Randall--to his father.
I used to think that Mr twist made that up to hurt Ennis--out of his own anger and bitterness of their relationship.
Hmmmmm--need to think on this some more. Thanx.

tpe · « **Reply #88 on:** Jan 02, 2007, 02:15 PM »

Quote from: HLJG on Jan 02, 2007, 01:56 PM

Agreed. I think that Ennis would keep things just as they were with Jack. The 'impossibility' wou;ld be for the two of them to live together. He knew he couldn't 'fix' it, so he was 'standin it'--and for as long as he could ride it.
I still don't get a strong handle on what John Twist told Ennis. The more I think about it, though, I see how Jack really may have spoke of moving up there with Randall--to his father.
I used to think that Mr twist made that up to hurt Ennis--out of his own anger and bitterness of their relationship.
Hmmmmm--need to think on this some more. Thanx.

HLJG , it does gnaw on me many times -- the ambiguity. Although I don't think John Twist invented it, I did think he said it with an intention to hurt Ennis, without thought of the memory of his son.

A truth that's said with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #89 on:** Jan 03, 2007, 04:01 AM »

Maybe he spoke of bringing Randall there without really opening up the true nature of the relationship. Mr. Twist referred to Randall as "another fella" as in a freind or buddy who was coming up to help with the ranch. Jack had obviously dicussed Ennis with either his mom or dad or both. He knew Ennis by name. It was only when Ennis came up to get the ashes , along with his wife's interactions with Ennis did he realize that these two men were'nt just "buddies" to Jack and showed his disgust with either man with his son, humiliating Ennis in the process. I think Jack confided more closely with his mom.Randall never made it up to meet them, but Ennis did. By mentioning Randall, whom , Ennis never knew of or met, it made Ennis realized how close Jack came to loosing him to the ranch foreman himself....not his wife.

Author Topic: how many lies were told? (Read 102465 times)

greenfrog

greenfrog