Topic: how many lies were told?

[tpe]

I do think Ennis did see through the lie about Randall.  But I don't think he realized that Jack was planning something more serious...

 

[welshwitch]

I do;now whether we've said this before, but from the moment of her seeing the reunion kiss, Alma lives a lie - she never confronts Ennis, never tells him what she saw, pretends they're a normal couple. In essence she acts a lie too - trying to get Ennis to go to the church social with her and so on.

[tpe]

I do;now whether we've said this before, but from the moment of her seeing the reunion kiss, Alma lives a lie - she never confronts Ennis, never tells him what she saw, pretends they're a normal couple. In essence she acts a lie too - trying to get Ennis to go to the church social with her and so on.

She lives the lie.  That is because she couldn't face up to the truth.

[jedibarrister]

To Ennis, Jack cheating with a woman is not as bad because it's more normal. But when he sleeps with other men, that's when Ennis has a problem because, to him it's not normal (and he's scared it will get Jack killed).

The answer is different, for me, depending on if you refer to the book or the movie.  Ennis were almost different characters in each incarnation.  At the core, however, Ennis was in deep denial about his sexuality.  Somehow, he'd convinced himself that Jack was it.  And in a certain respect, it's true.  Jack was the only one for him.  He was so withdrawn and so taciturn that he didn't mix socially unless someone reeled him in, i.e. Alma, Jack, Cassie, Junior.  Jack was more extroverted and more accepting of who he was and what he needed.  And since he was more social, he needed more social life.  So Jack's lies, to me, all boiled down to one motivation: save Ennis' ego and protect his sense of self.  So Jack lies about Aguirre so Ennis doesn't freak out about people thinking he's "queer".  He lies about Randall's "wife" so that Ennis doesn't freak out and think Jack (and by extension he) are "queer".  He doesn't tell him about Mexico and the fact that he'd "ridden more than bulls, and not rolled his own" for the same reason.  If Ennis thinks Jack is full on gay, then what does that say about Ennis?  To me, Jack lied to protect Ennis from his own homophobia and fears.

[tpe]

The answer is different, for me, depending on if you refer to the book or the movie.  Ennis were almost different characters in each incarnation.  At the core, however, Ennis was in deep denial about his sexuality.  Somehow, he'd convinced himself that Jack was it.  And in a certain respect, it's true.  Jack was the only one for him.  He was so withdrawn and so taciturn that he didn't mix socially unless someone reeled him in, i.e. Alma, Jack, Cassie, Junior.  Jack was more extroverted and more accepting of who he was and what he needed.  And since he was more social, he needed more social life.  So Jack's lies, to me, all boiled down to one motivation: save Ennis' ego and protect his sense of self.  So Jack lies about Aguirre so Ennis doesn't freak out about people thinking he's "queer".  He lies about Randall's "wife" so that Ennis doesn't freak out and think Jack (and by extension he) are "queer".  He doesn't tell him about Mexico and the fact that he'd "ridden more than bulls, and not rolled his own" for the same reason.  If Ennis thinks Jack is full on gay, then what does that say about Ennis?  To me, Jack lied to protect Ennis from his own homophobia and fears.

Wonderful post, jedibarrister.  I agree with you.

[lancecowboy]

The answer is different, for me, depending on if you refer to the book or the movie.  Ennis were almost different characters in each incarnation.  At the core, however, Ennis was in deep denial about his sexuality.  Somehow, he'd convinced himself that Jack was it.  And in a certain respect, it's true.  Jack was the only one for him.  He was so withdrawn and so taciturn that he didn't mix socially unless someone reeled him in, i.e. Alma, Jack, Cassie, Junior.  Jack was more extroverted and more accepting of who he was and what he needed.  And since he was more social, he needed more social life.  So Jack's lies, to me, all boiled down to one motivation: save Ennis' ego and protect his sense of self.  So Jack lies about Aguirre so Ennis doesn't freak out about people thinking he's "queer".  He lies about Randall's "wife" so that Ennis doesn't freak out and think Jack (and by extension he) are "queer".  He doesn't tell him about Mexico and the fact that he'd "ridden more than bulls, and not rolled his own" for the same reason.  If Ennis thinks Jack is full on gay, then what does that say about Ennis?  To me, Jack lied to protect Ennis from his own homophobia and fears.

This is very insightful, jedibarrister. I wonder, however, how much of Jack's lying is really protecting Ennis, and how much of it is to protect his own access to Ennis. I don't doubt for a moment that Jack would do whatever he can to protect Ennis, but I also think there is more than a fair share of his own self-interest involved.

I agree with you about Jack's an extrovert and therefore requires more social/sexual satisfaction. Indeed, Ennis is so introverted that he can do with a couple high altitude f@##$ks a few times a year. He can be happy living in his lonely trailer with nothing but memories and dreams of Jack.

I must concede that Jack being the consummate salesman and master of human behavioral understanding may know exactly what you say to be Ennis' ultimate button, his homophobia and fear and avoided pressing it by lying. I am only unsure, as you seem to be certain, of his motivation. I'd say it's half protectiveness and half self-interest.

[jedibarrister]

Indeed, Ennis is so introverted that he can do with a couple high altitude f@##$ks a few times a year.

In the movie version, when he's dropped to his knees and crying on Jack's shoulder, he says "I can't stand it anymore."  His constant refrain is "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it."  So he's saying he can't stand it anymore.  So is that his way of saying that he can't survive on the couple of high altitude Fs anymore either?  Could be.

[tpe]

In the movie version, when he's dropped to his knees and crying on Jack's shoulder, he says "I can't stand it anymore."  His constant refrain is "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it."  So he's saying he can't stand it anymore.  So is that his way of saying that he can't survive on the couple of high altitude Fs anymore either?  Could be.

I do agree that "I can't stand it anymore, Jack" constitutes an admission on Ennis's part.  It was the one time that Ennis let his stoicism fall back to reveal his true feelings.

[myprivatejack]

In the movie version, when he's dropped to his knees and crying on Jack's shoulder, he says "I can't stand it anymore."  His constant refrain is "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it."  So he's saying he can't stand it anymore.  So is that his way of saying that he can't survive on the couple of high altitude Fs anymore either?  Could be.

I've always supposed that his constant refrain,as you call it,"If you can't fix it,you gotta stand it",was repeated so that the own Ennis could believe it in the end.I mean,he kept a constant struggle with himself in order not to "fall" in something that he wished very much,but that he feared much more still.So it's difficult to spend half your life living in a lie,when you are obliged to repeat to yourself that you are happy the way you're living...For me,when he collapses in Jack's arms,he's saying,of course,that he can't survive on the couple of high altitude f...s not for a physical reason,but for what these f...s meant; to be living with the only person he had really loved.In spite of himself.

[lancecowboy]

In the movie version, when he's dropped to his knees and crying on Jack's shoulder, he says "I can't stand it anymore."  His constant refrain is "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it."  So he's saying he can't stand it anymore.  So is that his way of saying that he can't survive on the couple of high altitude Fs anymore either?  Could be.

I don't agree with you here. Ennis accepts society's bigotry, can't fix it, can't change people's prejudices, can't move to a big city, so he gotta stand the situation, and just live with a couple high altitude meets with Jack each year. He was not happy with it but he was thankful just to have beans. He don't need no elk to be happy.

"I can't stand it no more." I believe was referring to his feeling trapped in the same poverty that gripped him since childhood. His sense of powerlessness in the face of Jack's demand for more meeting, going some place further away (more costly) etc. The proud Ennis was finally overwhelmed with his own sense of self worth, or lack of worth, in the face of Jack's high class finance and Monroe's prosperity, and his own diminishing struggle to get ahead. He wish he could go with Jack to Texas; he wish he could work at the power company; he wish he don't have no alimony. If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it. He was born poor, and probably will die poor. He just gotta stand it. But when the love of his love wish he got quit and go somewhere other than Riverton, he can't stand it no more, that nagging sense of powerlessness. He couldn't imagine losing Jack, and couldn't think of a way out of his life.

Ennis was trapped in a prison of his own making, the fear from his childhood and social bigotry, the pride from his pa's upbringing, his own love for a man that seemed out of his reach by social mores and social station, his love for the children that he could no longer support, his regrets for not holding on to Jack twenty years ago. All those fears and regrets, all the hope and dreams, all smashed together, and brought him to his knees. 

[tpe]

Interesting exchange here.

I suppose all of us would agree that "I can't stand it anymore, Jack" was a sincere and artless outburst on Ennis part that showed something of his true feelings.

For me, it indicated that Ennis was nearing the breaking point as far as "living the lie" is concerned.  By this, I amean that (for me), the outburst showed that Ennis couldn't stand not being with Jack -- this, in spite of what seemd to be his inability to see Jack more often. 

The fact that his outburst seems to be in direct contradiction with his cutting back on the fishing trips indicates that there was real internal conflict within himself. 

Like most of us, Ennis is a sea of contradictions and compromises.  This outburast showed (at least to me) how truly human he really is -- lies or no lies.

 

[lancecowboy]

"Ennis was trapped in a prison of his own making, the fear from his childhood and social bigotry, the pride from his pa's upbringing, his own love for a man that seemed out of his reach by social mores and social station, his love for the children that he could no longer support, his regrets for not holding on to Jack twenty years ago. All those fears and regrets, all the hope and dreams, all smashed together, and brought him to his knees."

  Good read here Lance.  How many of us are in the prisons of our own makin for some of the very same reasons.  These things that shape our lives and leave us with regrets.  Why their story is so much my/our story?

  One lie gives birth to 1000 others...

Those are the quintessential questions of religion, of philosophy, of art, Ranchand.  They are the foundations of great art, and why we love Brokeback Mountains so much. The movie touches on those very questions, and offers shadows of answers to the questions of our lives. PBS is the continuing journey, the quest, to grasp those answers, really, firmly, emotionally.

I am glad to have you all for my fellowship on this quest.

[tpe]

Those are the quintessential questions of religion, of philosophy, of art, Ranchand.  They are the foundations of great art, and why we love Brokeback Mountains so much. The movie touches on those very questions, and offers shadows of answers to the questions of our lives. PBS is the continuing journey, the quest, to grasp those answers, really, firmly, emotionally.

I am glad to have you all for my fellowship on this quest.

OT:  likewise, lance. 

[myprivatejack]

The question of lies in BBM are not a quantitative,but a qualitative subject.It's to say,no matter how many lies were told,because as a matter of fact,all their lives were a great lie in themselves.They,specially Ennis,did the worst thing than a person can do; lie to oneself.They were pretending during all their lives that they could "disguise" as a friendship what was a real love; and,what is worse,they ended believing it inside themselves.They were pretending that they could live as two "normal" men with family and siblings and play the role of gay lover one or twice times a year.They were pretending they could stand this situation because it was what people expected from them; and in the end,both of them could stand nothing of all this...

[lancecowboy]

The question of lies in BBM are not a quantitative,but a qualitative subject.It's to say,no matter how many lies were told,because as a matter of fact,all their lives were a great lie in themselves.They,specially Ennis,did the worst thing than a person can do; lie to oneself.They were pretending during all their lives that they could "disguise" as a friendship what was a real love; and,what is worse,they ended believing it inside themselves.They were pretending that they could live as two "normal" men with family and siblings and play the role of gay lover one or twice times a year.They were pretending they could stand this situation because it was what people expected from them; and in the end,both of them could stand nothing of all this...

That's right on the money, mpj. The trailer, if we recall, says it poignantly,

"It was a friendship that became a secret."
"There are lies we have to be tell."
"There are truths we cannot deny."

It's why Don't Ask Don't Tell makes life miserable. The lies that must be told in the name of patriotic duty.

Ennis was made to lie from the moment his pa took him up to look at Earl lying on the ditch, dead and bloodied.

Both Ennis and Jack were made to lie with every derogatory statement out of the mouths of people around them, especially from the ones they loved.

The tragedy of Brokeback Mountain is not just the death of Jack, the lost opportunities of Ennis and Jack, but the prison forged of bigotry and cruel insensitivity that lie dormant in our social fabric, ready to come out stabbing at the hearts of other nine-year-olds, other Ennises, other Jacks.

The lies that have to be told, in the name of God and Country.

[tpe]

The question of lies in BBM are not a quantitative,but a qualitative subject.It's to say,no matter how many lies were told,because as a matter of fact,all their lives were a great lie in themselves.They,specially Ennis,did the worst thing than a person can do; lie to oneself.They were pretending during all their lives that they could "disguise" as a friendship what was a real love; and,what is worse,they ended believing it inside themselves.They were pretending that they could live as two "normal" men with family and siblings and play the role of gay lover one or twice times a year.They were pretending they could stand this situation because it was what people expected from them; and in the end,both of them could stand nothing of all this...

At the heart of the lie is the deep desire to conform -- to be ordinary... to live a life of happiness as other people try to do.  At the heart of the lie is a realization that in the larger world.  appearances had to be maintained, even at the cost of one's true feelings.
Pretence.

[lancecowboy]

At the heart of the lie is the deep desire to conform -- to be ordinary... to live a life of happiness as other people try to do.  At the heart of the lie is a realization that in the larger world.  appearances had to be maintained, even at the cost of one's true feelings.
Pretence.

I wonder how much of Ennis' lies come from desire, and how much come from fear.

His homophobia stems from the fear of being smashed with a tire iron. He didn't care much about appearances or conforming. If he did, he would have married Cassie. If he did, he would have initiated their relationship and pursued Cassie. Ennis was proud, but that was the extent of what he thought of other people's opinions of him.

The fear of violence also stems from KD's bullying him, as told in the short story. He could fight back against KD but he couldn't fight against the world, so he gotta just stand it.

I don't see any of this deep desire that you speak of. I see only fear created by violent oppression.

Just my cents, for what's it worth.

[vedrana]

I have to admit that I haven't follow the discussion entirely, but... when I saw the title of the thread:

How many lies were told?...

... it occurred to me that it was more avoiding the truth, keeping the most important things inside, that telling lies... 

Sorry if I just jumped in without previous introduction to the matter, but well... just a thought. 

[lancecowboy]

I have to admit that I haven't follow the discussion entirely, but... when I saw the title of the thread:

How many lies were told?...

... it occurred to me that it was more avoiding the truth, keeping the most important things inside, that telling lies... 

Sorry if I just jumped in without previous introduction to the matter, but well... just a thought. 

Welcome to the discussion, loreen.

Some lies are omissions of the truth. Don't Ask Don't Tell was not about lying, but it turned into that when the omission of the truth forced people to lie about who they are, what they do.

Ennis, as you said, was also about avoiding to face the truth, that his relationship with Jack was that of a gay man in love.

"The friendship that became a secret" became "the lies that have to be told", to cover up the truth that he could not face.

[vedrana]

Welcome to the discussion, loreen.

Some lies are omissions of the truth. Don't Ask Don't Tell was not about lying, but it turned into that when the omission of the truth forced people to lie about who they are, what they do.

Ennis, as you said, was also about avoiding to face the truth, that his relationship with Jack was that of a gay man in love.

"The friendship that became a secret" became "the lies that have to be told", to cover up the truth that he could not face.

Makes sense, have to admit! 

[tpe]

I wonder how much of Ennis' lies come from desire, and how much come from fear.

His homophobia stems from the fear of being smashed with a tire iron. He didn't care much about appearances or conforming. If he did, he would have married Cassie. If he did, he would have initiated their relationship and pursued Cassie. Ennis was proud, but that was the extent of what he thought of other people's opinions of him.

The fear of violence also stems from KD's bullying him, as told in the short story. He could fight back against KD but he couldn't fight against the world, so he gotta just stand it.

I don't see any of this deep desire that you speak of. I see only fear created by violent oppression.

Just my cents, for what's it worth.

Certainly there was fear and desire.  But I really think that like all of us, Ennis just wanted to live life like everybody else.  Why then should he have married Alma?  It is hard for me to believe that he did this just because he feared being found out.  He married her, I believe, because that was what was expected of people who came of age.  It was the natural step to take for a young man attaining manhood.  And in this, he just wanted to be like his brother or everyone else.  Ennis had perhaps convinced himself that he indeed truly loved her.  Was it an outright sham?  Perhaps it was more of self delusion.

[tpe]

Welcome to the discussion, loreen.

Some lies are omissions of the truth. Don't Ask Don't Tell was not about lying, but it turned into that when the omission of the truth forced people to lie about who they are, what they do.

Ennis, as you said, was also about avoiding to face the truth, that his relationship with Jack was that of a gay man in love.

"The friendship that became a secret" became "the lies that have to be told", to cover up the truth that he could not face.

Living the lie is of course not always "active" -- as you pointed out, it can be in the "passive" mode.  To not recognize something so fundamental to oneself is certainly living a lie, IMO.

Is self delusion equivalent to a lie?

[lancecowboy]

Living the lie is of course not always "active" -- as you pointed out, it can be in the "passive" mode.  To not recognize something so fundamental to oneself is certainly living a lie, IMO.

Is self delusion equivalent to a lie?

YUP! It's lying to oneself, and that's what society has forced on us in many ways, not just in terms of sexuality, but also in terms of what is important in life, like material things, or looks or whatever ways people keep score.

One of the great Buddhist insight is that a lot of what we call real life is made up of illusions, or lies if you will.

Ennis bought in on the lie of homophobia, that being gay is bad.

Loreen (Jack's wife  ) bought in on the lie that material things mean success, that being rich is really important.

In the end, Ennis lost his love, and Loreen lost hers. I think Jack was giving his marriage an honest try until he just couldn't stomach the treatment he got from Old man Newsome, and his wife's tacit complacent agreement with his view of his being a lesser person for lack of material wealth.

What made Jack special was his determination to stand up to these lies, to homophobia and to grass materialism.

To Jack, love was the truth that made sense of everything else.

[tpe]

YUP! It's lying to oneself, and that's what society has forced on us in many ways, not just in terms of sexuality, but also in terms of what is important in life, like material things, or looks or whatever ways people keep score.

One of the great Buddhist insight is that a lot of what we call real life is made up of illusions, or lies if you will.

Ennis bought in on the lie of homophobia, that being gay is bad.

Loreen (Jack's wife  ) bought in on the lie that material things mean success, that being rich is really important.

In the end, Ennis lost his love, and Loreen lost hers. I think Jack was giving his marriage an honest try until he just couldn't stomach the treatment he got from Old man Newsome, and his wife's tacit complacent agreement with his view of his being a lesser person for lack of material wealth.

What made Jack special was his determination to stand up to these lies, to homophobia and to grass materialism.

To Jack, love was the truth that made sense of everything else.

Beautifully said, lance!  The veneer of "reality" that covers (or seeks to cover) so many lies proves to be the undoing of so many people...

[vedrana]

YUP! It's lying to oneself, and that's what society has forced on us in many ways, not just in terms of sexuality, but also in terms of what is important in life, like material things, or looks or whatever ways people keep score.

One of the great Buddhist insight is that a lot of what we call real life is made up of illusions, or lies if you will.

Ennis bought in on the lie of homophobia, that being gay is bad.

Loreen (Jack's wife  ) bought in on the lie that material things mean success, that being rich is really important.

In the end, Ennis lost his love, and Loreen lost hers. I think Jack was giving his marriage an honest try until he just couldn't stomach the treatment he got from Old man Newsome, and his wife's tacit complacent agreement with his view of his being a lesser person for lack of material wealth.

What made Jack special was his determination to stand up to these lies, to homophobia and to grass materialism.

To Jack, love was the truth that made sense of everything else.

Lance,

I agree that it is the society that sometimes forces us to accept something that we personally don't cherish at all. We have all been there, and as much as I personally try to avoid it, I found myself several times falling down to the mud of the rotten society rules... (later you can not wash the mud out easily.)

What I don't agree with you is that Lureen thought of Jack to be a lesser person for any reason. She hated other treated him that way (it was obvious in few scenes), but she was part of that society, which she couldn't avoid. She wasn't able to stand up for him, for she was a woman... I resent her a lack of feelings for him, but the same as Jack, she did her best in the circumstances of the society and her own capability of loving someone.

Also, Jack was a good husband and a father, but he would've dump both his wife and son for Ennis any moment Ennis agreed to be with him... unfortunately he never did. What I mean, that it wasn't LD or Lureen's fault of their poor marriage so much as it was his longing for Ennis which never found it's way to the "sweet life".

Finally, the red words are so true! My Jack! 

[lancecowboy]

Beautifully said, lance!  The veneer of "reality" that covers (or seeks to cover) so many lies proves to be the undoing of so many people...

Thanks for the kind words, tpe. It's not just so many people. Specifically, the smarter the person, the more convoluted the deception, and the deeper the layers of lies. It's why the simplest and most unsophisticated person can be more authentic than the smartest sophisticate. The smarter we are, the more able we can fool ourselves.

[lancecowboy]

Lance,

I agree that it is the society that sometimes forces us to accept something that we personally don't cherish at all. We have all been there, and as much as I personally try to avoid it, I found myself several times falling down to the mud of the rotten society rules... (later you can not wash the mud out easily.)

We live in the world, and therefore we are limited by what we can do pursuing our own dreams. Not everyone is free to do everything they want. What Ennis feared, kept him chained in his miserable life, and missing out on a wonderful life with Jack. Sometimes, facing these limitations, whether they be fears or lies, can open up new avenues to pursue our dreams. What matters is the courage to change, to try, to reach high, to dream the impossible dream. Not all of us can do that. Jack did. It's why we admire him so. Ennis, after the epiphany at the diner, tried reaching out to Jack in a postcard, a first perhaps, but had his dream shattered by a single red lettered word. It's why we ache for him so.

As for washing out the mud, Christians call it repentence, Buddhists call it repentence, Muslims call it submission or repentence (not too sure). Dr. Phil call it "you cannot keep doing the same thing and expect a different result." The saying goes, "It's never too late."

What I don't agree with you is that Lureen thought of Jack to be a lesser person for any reason. She hated other treated him that way (it was obvious in few scenes), but she was part of that society, which she couldn't avoid. She wasn't able to stand up for him, for she was a woman... I resent her a lack of feelings for him, but the same as Jack, she did her best in the circumstances of the society and her own capability of loving someone.

I have to confess that I do not have a good grasp of Loreen and her motivations. I don't know if her marriage fell apart because of her pursuit of finance or her pursuit was a means of solace from the failed marriage. Perhaps it's one of those self-fulfilling reinforcing contributing factors that made the failed marriage self-catalysed. I understand the society of her family made choices limited for her. The bullying old man Newsome also made life difficult. I don't know her feelings well enough to say if she still loved Jack after Randall et al. But she certainly embraced the high society (recall her Greek snobbishness with LaShawn) and exacerbated Jack's feeling of "left-out" loneliness.

The sad part of it all, it's that Ennis did his best against the homophobia, while Loreen did her best against the snobbishness, but in the end, it was Jack who was left hanging.

Also, Jack was a good husband and a father, but he would've dump both his wife and son for Ennis any moment Ennis agreed to be with him... unfortunately he never did. What I mean, that it wasn't LD or Lureen's fault of their poor marriage so much as it was his longing for Ennis which never found it's way to the "sweet life".

Finally, the red words are so true! My Jack! 

Yup. The fact that after twenty years of short leash yanking from Ennis and constant condescension from Texas, Jack only drank as much as he did and not more, says a lot about the man.

[tpe]

If there were any lies told between Ennis and Jack, it certainly wasn't on the level of sophistication that we associate with conscious self-deception.  I do think that for all their emotional and psychological complexity, Ennis and Jack were fairly simple people -- especially in the matter of love (and hate.)  Any self-deception on their part wasn't something self-conscious and self-convoluted.  The best way to read it is this: that from very simple intentions, serious complications can arise purely from honest misunderstanding, or the desire not to hurt someone.

[lancecowboy]

If there were any lies told between Ennis and Jack, it certainly wasn't on the level of sophistication that we associate with conscious self-deception.  I do think that for all their emotional and psychological complexity, Ennis and Jack were fairly simple people -- especially in the matter of love (and hate.)  Any self-deception on their part wasn't something self-conscious and self-convoluted.  The best way to read it is this: that from very simple intentions, serious complications can arise purely from honest misunderstanding, or the desire not to hurt someone.

Lies are never simple. Every lie is a thread in a tangled web we weave. Ennis may be simple, but society is not. Homophobia forces the simple man to adapt, to wear a mask and lead a double life. His simplicity and guilelessness is the reason for his pain and suffering. A smarter man would find ways to lie, to pretend, and be financially successful, and be happy with a wife and kids, and be free to spend more time with Jack. His powerlessness was the root of his pain and suffering. Ennis' self-deception was the one every gay man experienced at some point in their coming out. "I ain't queer." Fortunate is the generation when being gay ain't perceived as bad, as horrible, as something we need to hide and deny. From that one simple lie, the tangled web of other lies spring forth to trap Ennis into powerlessness.

I don't see the desire to not hurt someone.  I see Ennis and Jack trying to keep others from hurting them. Their lies hurt their respective spouses.

It is interesting to note, that of all the relationships in the movie, the best ones are those between Jack's Ma and Jack, between Junior and Ennis, between Jack's Ma and Ennis, when the truth of the way they are, is accepted. The lies we have to tell...aren't. The irony is that telling lies actually made matters worse. Ennis would have been happier if he told Alma the truth after that first summer. Jack would have been happier if he told Ennis the truth, about his feelings, the shirts, before coming down the mountain. Alma would have been happier if she told Ennis the truth about witnessing the kiss. Loreen would have been happier if she told off Old Man Newsome about how she felt, instead of accepting the bullying of her husband in silence.

True, the consequences of telling the truth in each of these circumstances also carry certain painful repercussions. Ennis may have been ostracized in Wyoming, but like he said in the short story, he could move to Denver or some big city. Alma would have to either accept Jack into the family or divorce Ennis earlier. With her smarts, she could still land on her feet no matter what. Loreen may feel standing up to the old man would result in losing her financial standing. That's an understandable reason for submission, especially with Bobby in tow. Her role was heartbreaking and difficult. Hathaway did a great job portraying it. That scene with Ennis on the phone was Academy Award worthy. All the lies we told...revealed in that moment when Ennis said, we herded sheep together one summer.

[tpe]

Lies are never simple. Every lie is a thread in a tangled web we weave. Ennis may be simple, but society is not. Homophobia forces the simple man to adapt, to wear a mask and lead a double life. His simplicity and guilelessness is the reason for his pain and suffering. A smarter man would find ways to lie, to pretend, and be financially successful, and be happy with a wife and kids, and be free to spend more time with Jack. His powerlessness was the root of his pain and suffering. Ennis' self-deception was the one every gay man experienced at some point in their coming out. "I ain't queer." Fortunate is the generation when being gay ain't perceived as bad, as horrible, as something we need to hide and deny. From that one simple lie, the tangled web of other lies spring forth to trap Ennis into powerlessness.

I don't see the desire to not hurt someone.  I see Ennis and Jack trying to keep others from hurting them. Their lies hurt their respective spouses.

It is interesting to note, that of all the relationships in the movie, the best ones are those between Jack's Ma and Jack, between Junior and Ennis, between Jack's Ma and Ennis, when the truth of the way they are, is accepted. The lies we have to tell...aren't. The irony is that telling lies actually made matters worse. Ennis would have been happier if he told Alma the truth after that first summer. Jack would have been happier if he told Ennis the truth, about his feelings, the shirts, before coming down the mountain. Alma would have been happier if she told Ennis the truth about witnessing the kiss. Loreen would have been happier if she told off Old Man Newsome about how she felt, instead of accepting the bullying of her husband in silence.

True, the consequences of telling the truth in each of these circumstances also carry certain painful repercussions. Ennis may have been ostracized in Wyoming, but like he said in the short story, he could move to Denver or some big city. Alma would have to either accept Jack into the family or divorce Ennis earlier. With her smarts, she could still land on her feet no matter what. Loreen may feel standing up to the old man would result in losing her financial standing. That's an understandable reason for submission, especially with Bobby in tow. Her role was heartbreaking and difficult. Hathaway did a great job portraying it. That scene with Ennis on the phone was Academy Award worthy. All the lies we told...revealed in that moment when Ennis said, we herded sheep together one summer.

This is a good distinction that you make.  From simple lies come forth great tragedies.  Artists (dramatists in particular) have long known this.  For some of them, they would call it the machinations of fate.  But for others, they explicitly acknowledge that certain things, simply and innocently started, get a life of theri own once they are let loose.  And it magnifies beyond anyone's control.  This is the genesis of true tragedy.

The most excellent example is to be found in the Bard's "King Lear".  To Lear's question, Cordelia answers that most dissembling of lies: "NOTHING".  From this one simple word is born the great tragedy that engulfs them all.