Author Topic: The Significance of Names  (Read 56448 times)

Offline zephK

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2007, 12:57 AM »
OT: I assume that he had.  This was implied when Jack confessed to having a relationship with "the ranch foreman's wife".  There are many threads dealing with this topic...



Well, I'd better stay away from there - the  thought of it seems to me like a big "Whuh?"  What the hell'd they draw on to come up with an idea like that?  Surely not out of Jack's lie?  Well, thanks.
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Offline fairy

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #61 on: Jun 07, 2007, 01:09 PM »
Ennis means island? and del mar means of the sea? Is it right?
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Offline fairy

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #62 on: Jun 07, 2007, 01:14 PM »
OT: I assume that he had.  This was implied when Jack confessed to having a relationship with "the ranch foreman's wife".  There are many threads dealing with this topic...


In Annie Proulx's book Ennis asks to Jack "Have you everbeen with other guys?" and Jack says "no, never", but Proulx comments he didn't stay steady...so I think he had a relation with Randal...into the movie it is clear on my opinion...Jack needs it
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Offline tpe

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #63 on: Jun 07, 2007, 05:29 PM »
Ennis means island? and del mar means of the sea? Is it right?

Yes.  :)


Offline zephK

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #64 on: Jun 11, 2007, 10:54 PM »
In Annie Proulx's book Ennis asks to Jack "Have you everbeen with other guys?" and Jack says "no, never", but Proulx comments he didn't stay steady...so I think he had a relation with Randal...into the movie it is clear on my opinion...Jack needs it

   The only problem I have with this is that Randall isn't even in the book (nor does Ms. Proulx make any reference to a steady "date" for Jack, and he's only in the film for the Dinner/Dance where Jack seems to go out of his way to ignore him and even get away from him.  Look at it like this: Jack's a high-school dropout, Randall has graduated from Texas A&M (current enrolment over 45,000) - Jack goin' to the croppie house with a ranch foreman?  IMO Jack would be rightly suspicious of someone so far out of his class making a pass at him with both their wives present.  And there's another thing about Randall that set my gay nerves atwitchin' - he's a ranch foreman who has a four-year degree from Texas Agriculture and Mechanics University - if he couldn't fix his own pickup, he'd have someone working for him who could.  To break down by the side of the road on the way to an important social event of the Childress social calendar would very definitely cause Randall to lose face and to be in for some serious cojones-as-pinata action the following day.  Now of course this could be just a little homo-paranoia creepin' up, but it doesn't make sense.  Besides, on a farm there'd be all kinds of vehicles available to a ranch foreman if his truck wasn't operating up to snuff.  The potentially darker side of Randall, the one I left the theater with the first time I saw the film was that he was part of the Good Ole Boy Network - right out of college he gets a foreman's job on a ranch, that doesn't happen to each of the several thousand Aggie grads  every year. (I did live in Houston for a year and a half as a banquet manager for a national hotel chain - these moneyed "ranch" folks are very much into status,  and would expect their foreman, as a representative of their business, to keep up appearances.  The broken down pick up by the side of the road isn't really believable.)  A ranch has to have more than a few employees to have a foreman, which means there's money in that ranch, which means that Roy Taylor, Randall's boss, is friendly with the other money in town, LD Newsome.  Now if you were one of the richest men in town and some poor to middlin' bull-rider knocked your daughter up, you would be looking for ways to get rid of him...and everybody knows what a lonely rodeo cowboy will do with a few beers alone with any other lonely male...   Well, I have been wrong before, but my first viewing it seemed logical that LD wanted jack gone - hell Jack even says he practically offered to by him off, and agreeing to meet clandestinely with Randall would be a good way to get killed.  I'm just sayin'.
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Offline tpe

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #65 on: Jun 12, 2007, 07:11 AM »
   The only problem I have with this is that Randall isn't even in the book (nor does Ms. Proulx make any reference to a steady "date" for Jack, and he's only in the film for the Dinner/Dance where Jack seems to go out of his way to ignore him and even get away from him.  Look at it like this: Jack's a high-school dropout, Randall has graduated from Texas A&M (current enrolment over 45,000) - Jack goin' to the croppie house with a ranch foreman?  IMO Jack would be rightly suspicious of someone so far out of his class making a pass at him with both their wives present.  And there's another thing about Randall that set my gay nerves atwitchin' - he's a ranch foreman who has a four-year degree from Texas Agriculture and Mechanics University - if he couldn't fix his own pickup, he'd have someone working for him who could.  To break down by the side of the road on the way to an important social event of the Childress social calendar would very definitely cause Randall to lose face and to be in for some serious cojones-as-pinata action the following day.  Now of course this could be just a little homo-paranoia creepin' up, but it doesn't make sense.  Besides, on a farm there'd be all kinds of vehicles available to a ranch foreman if his truck wasn't operating up to snuff.  The potentially darker side of Randall, the one I left the theater with the first time I saw the film was that he was part of the Good Ole Boy Network - right out of college he gets a foreman's job on a ranch, that doesn't happen to each of the several thousand Aggie grads  every year. (I did live in Houston for a year and a half as a banquet manager for a national hotel chain - these moneyed "ranch" folks are very much into status,  and would expect their foreman, as a representative of their business, to keep up appearances.  The broken down pick up by the side of the road isn't really believable.)  A ranch has to have more than a few employees to have a foreman, which means there's money in that ranch, which means that Roy Taylor, Randall's boss, is friendly with the other money in town, LD Newsome.  Now if you were one of the richest men in town and some poor to middlin' bull-rider knocked your daughter up, you would be looking for ways to get rid of him...and everybody knows what a lonely rodeo cowboy will do with a few beers alone with any other lonely male...   Well, I have been wrong before, but my first viewing it seemed logical that LD wanted jack gone - hell Jack even says he practically offered to by him off, and agreeing to meet clandestinely with Randall would be a good way to get killed.  I'm just sayin'.


True, the ss never calls Randall by name, although he is assumed to be the Texas ranch neighbor mentioned by John Twist.

Also, the movie explicitly stated that Randall majored in animal husbandry, so I guess we can forgiv ehis not being so mechanical!   ;D

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #66 on: Jun 30, 2007, 04:04 AM »
 Did I hear Ennis refer to Jack as " Henry" in the confrontation scene? Any one else hear this?
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #67 on: Jun 30, 2007, 08:17 AM »
No - where?

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #68 on: Jun 30, 2007, 08:47 AM »
No I never heard that.
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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #69 on: Jun 30, 2007, 09:33 AM »
 No, the only name he did call him was "bud",when he about to break the news that he had to change the date of their next meeting.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #70 on: Jul 01, 2007, 03:28 PM »
I heard this just as Jack starts in on Ennis about how they could have had a " fu--kin good life". Jack is pointing at Ennis and Ennis nods his head and mumbles  " Gawd Henry" listen up with your earphones , he says it ! I have a set of  powerful Sony stereo headphones and they pick up everything. I suppose in the SS they give Jack's full name. I can't remember.  as I admit,  I've only read it once as I very much prefer the movie version.not to take anything away from A.Proux's  descriptions of these wonderful characters. Is Jack's  middle name Henry? or something, Please inform. Thanks.
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Offline jackster

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #71 on: Jul 01, 2007, 07:11 PM »
. . . and Ennis nods his head and mumbles "Gawd Henry" listen up with your earphones , he says it!

Sorry, to me it sounds like "goddamn him"

Is Jack's middle name Henry? or something, Please inform. Thanks.

I believe it's "Jack F**ckin Twist" ain't it?  ;D  Don't think any other moniker is used.
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #72 on: Jul 01, 2007, 09:08 PM »
 I'm just wondering if this name had significance. I maybe wrong but this is what I think I hear, but won't say I'm absolutly right. It's more of Ennis's mumbling . First I thought he said " Gotta get going" but after listening to it over and over this is what I came up with. Goddamn him" could very  well  be possible too.  Ah ,another excuse to watch BBM again ,especially this great scene! ;DThanks.
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Offline tpe

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #73 on: Jul 02, 2007, 08:33 AM »


Interesting comment, although I never heard this.  Then again, I have not used earphones.  Perhaps you just misunderstood what Ennis said.  It is difficult to follow waht Ennis says for most of the movie anyway!  :)


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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #74 on: Jul 02, 2007, 01:30 PM »
I heard this just as Jack starts in on Ennis about how they could have had a " fu--kin good life". Jack is pointing at Ennis and Ennis nods his head and mumbles  " Gawd Henry" listen up with your earphones , he says it ! I have a set of  powerful Sony stereo headphones and they pick up everything. I suppose in the SS they give Jack's full name. I can't remember.  as I admit,  I've only read it once as I very much prefer the movie version.not to take anything away from A.Proux's  descriptions of these wonderful characters. Is Jack's  middle name Henry? or something, Please inform. Thanks.

I have to listen to this asap.!!! BRB
The most difficult scene was the paragraph where, on the mountain, Ennis holds Jack and rocks back and forth, humming, the moment mixed with childhood loss and his refusal to admit he was holding a man.

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From the vibration of the floorboard on which they both stood, Ennis could feel how hard Jack was shaking.

Offline Twisted

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #75 on: Jul 02, 2007, 02:08 PM »
I hear: "God damned Henry"
The most difficult scene was the paragraph where, on the mountain, Ennis holds Jack and rocks back and forth, humming, the moment mixed with childhood loss and his refusal to admit he was holding a man.

- Annie Proulx -



From the vibration of the floorboard on which they both stood, Ennis could feel how hard Jack was shaking.

Offline lamusica

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #76 on: Jul 02, 2007, 02:25 PM »
Alma means soul or spirit.  Alma del Mar =           Spirit of the sea?  Soul of the sea?   Maybe Annie was trying to imply that Alma was the spirit within which Ennis's island existed.  Jack disrupted this scenario, thus leading to the turmoil in the marriage.
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #77 on: Jul 02, 2007, 03:04 PM »
I hear: "God damned Henry"

 This what i heard too. Thanks. It's mumbled, but again after numerous times  going over it, this seems to be what he says . Glad some one else hears it too.
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Offline tpe

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #78 on: Jul 03, 2007, 06:55 AM »
Alma means soul or spirit.  Alma del Mar =           Spirit of the sea?  Soul of the sea?   Maybe Annie was trying to imply that Alma was the spirit within which Ennis's island existed.  Jack disrupted this scenario, thus leading to the turmoil in the marriage.

I find the pronunciation of the name rather interesting: more like "Elma" instead of "Alma" -- as if to sound in consonance with "Ennis".

As for "Henry", I don't know what to make of it.  We are probably hearing something that sounds close to "Henry" but is probably a different word.  Again, the way Ennis mumbles all the time, it is hard to say what he is exactly saying.




Offline tamlynn

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #79 on: Nov 11, 2007, 09:57 PM »
I finally deciphered Ennis's name and its significance... i could be all wrong... I have not stopped thinking about his name.  here it is:  (I always thought my theory on led ram was significant.  He was the ram, led by Jack)

      spell del mar backwards then spell ennis backwards... over and over (like their affair) and you have the meaning.

       ram led sinneramledsinneramledsinner

sinner is a significant word in the movie.  "then sinners like us, we march off to hell..."  "Speak for yourself, I haven't yet had the opportunity."

The name Ennis was just too unusual ... it seemed part of a message, a code... with the unusual last name also.   anyone else discover this?  And, any thoughts? 



Offline myprivatejack

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #80 on: Nov 12, 2007, 10:19 AM »
Interesting point of view,Tamlynn;perhaps it´s only a coincidence,but it can also have a symbolism.And if it´s so,we could be facing to a moral lesson?The man who is unfaithful to his wife in a literal sense and also unfathful to HIMSELF by denying his deepest feelings, in a more general or emotional sense?.It´d be like the symbolism of Jack´s red shirt in the reunion scene we talked about in "Double meanings...",referring to sin´s idea...¿no?.And if we unite it with the surname,Del Mar-that is very curious to me,because it has already been said that means "Of the sea" in Spanish-,we find a man with a strong sense of the sin who lives with a great guilt feeling isolated from the society that surrounds him,in his own world,in his own "island i the sea".At least,it´s poetical and nice... <^(
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
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Offline tpe

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #81 on: Nov 13, 2007, 08:12 AM »
I finally deciphered Ennis's name and its significance... i could be all wrong... I have not stopped thinking about his name.  here it is:  (I always thought my theory on led ram was significant.  He was the ram, led by Jack)

      spell del mar backwards then spell ennis backwards... over and over (like their affair) and you have the meaning.

       ram led sinneramledsinneramledsinner

sinner is a significant word in the movie.  "then sinners like us, we march off to hell..."  "Speak for yourself, I haven't yet had the opportunity."

The name Ennis was just too unusual ... it seemed part of a message, a code... with the unusual last name also.   anyone else discover this?  And, any thoughts? 

Interesting interpretation.

The name Ennis is a variant of Hennessy, O'Hennessy, or O hAonghusa (descendant of Anonghus) which is much more common in Irish/Scottish/Gaelic.  The root is probably "Island", hence the variant meaning in Irish "one or only choice".


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #82 on: Nov 13, 2007, 01:07 PM »
Interesting interpretation.

The name Ennis is a variant of Hennessy, O'Hennessy, or O hAonghusa (descendant of Anonghus) which is much more common in Irish/Scottish/Gaelic.  The root is probably "Island", hence the variant meaning in Irish "one or only choice".


Very interesting,Thomas.Then,the meaning of his name and surname as "Island of the sea" has a greater significance.Ennis was a man of an one or only choice,but was as isolated as an island,alone in the inmensity of the sea;he must very  often to hide this choice he made because of his own isolation,because of not being able to share this choice with nobody,even with himself.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
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Offline tpe

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #83 on: Nov 14, 2007, 08:07 AM »
Very interesting,Thomas.Then,the meaning of his name and surname as "Island of the sea" has a greater significance.Ennis was a man of an one or only choice,but was as isolated as an island,alone in the inmensity of the sea;he must very  often to hide this choice he made because of his own isolation,because of not being able to share this choice with nobody,even with himself.

Yes, it always seemed to me that Ennis felt -- rightly or wrongly -- that he was limited in his choices, as a person stranded on a desert island, surrounded by the sounding sea.


Offline lamusica

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #84 on: Nov 14, 2007, 11:47 PM »

The name Ennis was just too unusual ... it seemed part of a message, a code... with the unusual last name also.   anyone else discover this?  And, any thoughts? 


Ennis is an unusual name in the US, but not among the Irish.
Del Mar is also a first name ( Delmar) that was pretty popular in the 30's and 40's in the US.  I had a cousin Delmar, and often heard that name.
I like the interpretation of Ennis meaning Island, because he was an island unto himself and that name seems appropriate.  Also, it sound very masculine to me, and very musical.
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Offline tpe

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #85 on: Nov 15, 2007, 08:04 AM »
Ennis is an unusual name in the US, but not among the Irish.
Del Mar is also a first name ( Delmar) that was pretty popular in the 30's and 40's in the US.  I had a cousin Delmar, and often heard that name.
I like the interpretation of Ennis meaning Island, because he was an island unto himself and that name seems appropriate.  Also, it sound very masculine to me, and very musical.

The image of the island certainly conjures the image of "standing alone", and being "only one".  It conjures both uniqueness, self-sufficiency, and loneliness.

Offline jackster

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #86 on: Nov 16, 2007, 09:52 PM »
Yes, it always seemed to me that Ennis felt -- rightly or wrongly -- that he was limited in his choices, as a person stranded on a desert island, surrounded by the sounding sea.

This description brings to mind the Paul Simon song from 1965, "I Am A Rock". Most of us of a certain, ahem age, can probably recite the melody from this song in our head. The lyrics are a good picture of Ennis and go something like this . . .

I am a rock,
I am an island.
I've built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
Its laughter and its loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

Dont talk of love,
But Ive heard the words before;
Its sleeping in my memory.
I wont disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #87 on: Nov 18, 2007, 03:46 PM »
Thanx Jackster, this expresses Ennis to a T. By the way I owned this when it was an album. oops showing my age!! lol.  ;D ;D I believe it's off the Bookends album..Ennis is symbolic to an island, and we can say that he he was surrounded by threatening waters, that he felt could wipe him out at any time A very appropriate name for him.
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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #88 on: Nov 18, 2007, 04:02 PM »
This description brings to mind the Paul Simon song from 1965, "I Am A Rock". Most of us of a certain, ahem age, can probably recite the melody from this song in our head. The lyrics are a good picture of Ennis and go something like this . . .

I am a rock,
I am an island.
I've built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
Its laughter and its loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

Dont talk of love,
But Ive heard the words before;
Its sleeping in my memory.
I wont disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.


Yeah, that song describe Ennis so perfectly!!!

So true: he was an island....  :\'(
« Last Edit: Nov 19, 2007, 12:23 PM by babytammy7 »

Offline jackster

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Re: The Significance of Names
« Reply #89 on: Nov 18, 2007, 11:14 PM »
I believe it's off the Bookends album . . .

Sounds of Silence.  O0
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