Topic: Which character are you more drawn to?

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Hey, i thought u were with me with regards to Ennis being the #1 man!!!!!!! 

When the choice is between Ennis and Jack, Ennis wins big in my heart...but l can't ignore this other hunk of man. It was a small part, but memorable!

I hate that CHARACTER :-) !!!!  homewrecker :-)

Now, now, be nice.  Randall could only be a homewrecker if he knew about Ennis.  Nothing in the movie indicated he did. Sorry.

[roguejedi]

Hey, i thought u were with me with regards to Ennis being the #1 man!!!!!!! 

When the choice is between Ennis and Jack, Ennis wins big in my heart...but l can't ignore this other hunk of man. It was a small part, but memorable!

I hate that CHARACTER :-) !!!!  homewrecker :-)

Now, now, be nice.  Randall could only be a homewrecker if he knew about Ennis.  Nothing in the movie indicated he did. Sorry.

hehe...maybe that is my biggest flaw...i guess when i love someone..or when i love a character as much as i love that of ennis, i want the whole world to go right for them...and anything else would be an obstacle for them :-)

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Hey, i thought u were with me with regards to Ennis being the #1 man!!!!!!! 

When the choice is between Ennis and Jack, Ennis wins big in my heart...but l can't ignore this other hunk of man. It was a small part, but memorable!

I hate that CHARACTER :-) !!!!  homewrecker :-)

Now, now, be nice.  Randall could only be a homewrecker if he knew about Ennis.  Nothing in the movie indicated he did. Sorry.

hehe...maybe that is my biggest flaw...i guess when i love someone..or when i love a character as much as i love that of ennis, i want the whole world to go right for them...and anything else would be an obstacle for them :-)

Don't worry about it.  Your among friends here!!  I understand.

[n061857]

Interesting point of view!  You bring up an interesting question that I was having in my mind, but was a bit hesitant to bring up....do you think that Ennis and Jack took traditional roles in their sexual encounters?  I had originally felt that Jack seemed more appropriate in the bottom role, as his size and demeanor physically led him there...and there was also their first experience in the tent to guess from.  I think if this were the case, it might make Ennis' guilt that much more painful in that Jack was presumably killed at the hands of some lynch mob, and he wasn't there to protect him?
 

In the story some mention is made that Ennis is upset that Lureen wasn't there to turn him over to keep him from drowning in his own blood.  I don't think Ennis blames himself for Jack being lynched.  It was Jack's lack of caution that got him killed in Ennis' eyes.  However, I am certain he wishes he could have protected him.  I think Ennis could have protected them both, if they had lived together.  He was one tough duse.  Think of him in that firework scene.                                                                                  - Nancy

[n061857]

If I had to choose between Ennis and Jack, I would likely gravitate toward Ennis.  His character had me with one word..."what?"  It's the one time in the film where I actually melt! 

Several people have referred to Ennis saying,  "What."  Can you tell me when he said that?   I did not catch it.  Thanks.                - Nancy

[chrissy323]

If I had to choose between Ennis and Jack, I would likely gravitate toward Ennis.  His character had me with one word..."what?"  It's the one time in the film where I actually melt! 

everal people have referred to Ennis saying, What."  Can you tell me when he said that.  I did not catch it.  Thanks.                - Nancy

Ennis said "what" when Jack was sorta smiling at him while they were sitting in front of the fire. Ennis gave the long (for him) explaination about how he ended up there after Jack asked if his brother and sister did all right by him.

[n061857]

Hi Adisonvunguy,

Yes, good post..but what stuck in my throat was that Jack was killed anyway for the things ennis tried to protect him from - so it was as if it all was in vain..they could've tried to build a life together anyway.  Not sure what you think.

Alicat xx

Hi Alcat xx,

Not to put the blame on the victim,  but I do belive Ennis could have protected Jack from death if he had played by Ennis' rules.  Jack became very reckless and indiscreet in his behavior.  This led to his demise.  I am asucker for a happy ending, but I'd like to think that after that last meeting, Ennis would have come around.  They would have lived together and Ennis would have protected him.                  - Nancy

[n061857]

Ennis said "what" when Jack was sorta smiling at him while they were sitting in front of the fire. Ennis gave the long (for him) explaination about how he ended up there after Jack asked if his brother and sister did all right by him.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.  I remember that, What?''  -very sexy with a little curl to the side of his lip.  How could I forget that?         
                                                                                                                             - Nancy

[n061857]

Ennis all the way.  Tall, strong and handsome.  Lanky.  Cool shuffle when he walks.  Innocence and vulnerability (endearing) on one hand, but tough and macho on the other.  Cute sense of humor only exposed to those that he loves.  Once you win his heart, it is yours forever.  His expressions speak volumes - sly smile, sideways glance, devastating hurt so masked.

Jack has a prettier face, but Ennis' rugged look and vulnerable personality do it all for me.                        - Nancy

*sorry, had to change the colour because it was very difficult to read ~ Froggy ~ Global Moderator*

[Titus]

I had originally felt that Jack seemed more appropriate in the bottom role, as his size and demeanor physically led him there

I don't think size or demeanour have anything to do with it.  That's a walking, talking sterotype.  That one night we saw isn't enough to go on to decide what their sex life was like.  Yes Ennis probably drew the line at being a bottom, lots of guys do; but he did kiss which surprised me no end.    "Cowboys don't kiss" that old adage I remember reading in the first edition of the Joy of Gay Sex back in the 80's.  Guys hung up on their own sexuality would, one would think, be less likely to kiss another man but happy to shag his brains out.

Jack became very reckless and indiscreet in his behavior.  This led to his demise.

  If Jack were queer-bashed it goes to follow that it might never had happened had he been able to be with Ennis 24/7.  If he wasn't in Texas, not a married man looking for sex, not sooo desperately lonely; he wouldn't have been in that position anyway.  What Ennis always feared, and what stunted his life, did happen anyway.  Not Ennis' fault or Jack's, but the real evil that finds it acceptable to beat the shit out of somebody just because they're different or they fancy you.  I mean how sick is that.  Titus.

[n061857]

*sorry, had to change the colour because it was very difficult to read ~ Froggy ~ Global Moderator*

Thanks so much.  I didn't know how to do that.                                       - Nancy

[Russianman]

am more drawn to Jack for many reasons.

First. He has a lovely personality. He is so moving, loving and caring. He is very spontaneous and emotional. He knows what he wants and is full of determination to have a better life not only for himself but for Ennis too!
Second. He is sincere and open about his feelings. He understands that life together with Ennis could be so much more! “Ya know, it can be like this... just like this... always”.  He wants Ennis to be open too! He really needs sharing life together. But does he get it? Think of that scene at the fire. “Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate, difficult times. … And maybe, he thought, they’d never got much farther than that.” (Friends, I am watering again!!  :'( :'( :'()
Jack was the only one who could truly understand Ennis. With not so much signs from Ennis’ side, Jack understands that Ennis loves him too and cares about Jack in his own way.

Third. Jack has a great sense of humor and a huge sex appeal. His eyes in the second tent’ scene are so vulnerable and touching! And I just love all his smiles- tender, flirty, open, sad etc.

And last but not least. Without Jack there would not be a story. If he did not approach Ennis, they would simply part after they came down from BB. If he did not find Ennis after 4 years, there would never be any fishing trips, fires in the night, stars in the dark heaven and many years of rare but happy mountain trips for Ennis and Jack  If not Jack, we would never know such a story of true affection, love and feelings of such strengths that made us all gather here on this forum.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

And last but not least. Without Jack there would not be a story. If he did not approach Ennis, they would simply part after they came down from BB. If he did not find Ennis after 4 years, there would never be any fishing trips, fires in the night, stars in the dark heaven and many years of rare but happy mountain trips for Ennis and Jack  If not Jack, we would never know such a story of true affection, love and feelings of such strengths that made us all gather here on this forum.

Jack, Ennis...it doesn't matter which one you are drawn to.
It's the magic of Brokeback Mountain!
We are all drawn to this story.  Isn't it great?!

[n061857]

Jack became very reckless and indiscreet in his behavior.  This led to his demise.

  If Jack were queer-bashed it goes to follow that it might never had happened had he been able to be with Ennis 24/7.  If he wasn't in Texas, not a married man looking for sex, not sooo desperately lonely; he wouldn't have been in that position anyway.  What Ennis always feared, and what stunted his life, did happen anyway.  Not Ennis' fault or Jack's, but the real evil that finds it acceptable to beat the shit out of somebody just because they're different or they fancy you.  I mean how sick is that.  Titus.

It is VERY sick.  I was afraid in writing this that I would sound like I was blaming the victim.  Believe me I am not.  I understand perfectly how Jack's rejection and frustration could lead him on a spiraling course of self destruction.  It is just so sad that there were so many eager to help him out.                                                              -Nancy

[Titus]

I was afraid in writing this that I would sound like I was blaming the victim.  Believe me I am not.

I know that's not what you're on about, Nancy, it's just that some people will blame Jack, Matt Shepard, etc. for what happened to them.  Even well-grounded, open-minded folks.  Sorry, not jumping down your throat.  Maybe I was anticipating the Oscar snub.  Next time I hear ANYTHING about Hollywood's pro-gay agenda somebody's gonna get smacked.   Hollywood, pro-gay, oh purleaze!  Titus the 

[matsuki33]

Ennis, i think that is a very complex person being affected by the lost of his parents, also from what he saw as a kid and then discover that he was just as Earl and Rich, it was a big hit to him and his failing marriage, his fears to fullfill his love desires and that he was unable to express himself make me feel that he was more human that the other people. he is the kind of person that you know that are the ones that you wuold like to help

[n061857]

Sorry, not jumping down your throat.  Maybe I was anticipating the Oscar snub.  Next time I hear ANYTHING about Hollywood's pro-gay agenda somebody's gonna get smacked.   Hollywood, pro-gay, oh purleaze!  Titus the 

Titus,  I didn't think you were jumping down my throat at all.  Honestly, although I perfectly understand all Jack's motivations I am still partial to Ennis.  To this end I worry what could happen to Ennis.  Jack was "discovered".  It wouldn't take much for people to assume that Ennis is gay too.
To me these characters are very real abd I feel protective towards Ennis.  I worry for him.                 - Nancy

[Titus]

I worry what could happen to Ennis.  Jack was "discovered".  It wouldn't take much for people to assume that Ennis is gay too

I think people did know, in spite of what Ennis thought that he was very discreet.  Aguirre knew and he was based at Signal.  According to the short story Ennis' brother lived at Signal.  Later on Cassie would be working at a bar in Signal.  Aguirre kept his mouth shut?  In the story when Jack returns the next summer to see if Ennis has returned to BBM and if he can get a job, the men in the parking lot look askance at Jack.  They know something.  How?

I think Ennis wasted all that time trying to be something he wasn't.  Aguirre saw them having sex.  People knew.  Like they say three people can keep a secret only if two of them are dead.  Ennis played the game and was a good boy.  Look where it got him.  Titus.

[Patriot1]

In the story when Jack returns the next summer to see if Ennis has returned to BBM and if he can get a job, the men in the parking lot look askance at Jack.  They know something.  How?

What men in the parking lot are you referring to Titus?

[jagrafess]

I haven't cried over this movie in over a week but reading through this thread has got me going again!

I'm more drawn to Jack, probably initially because he's just the most gorgeous looking fella!!!! But scratch the surface and you see a character that really is complex, generous, affectionate, and bursting with a good heart. 

He's set on Ennis right from the start, and is determined to peel back all those barriers.  Ennis can't help but be charmed by Jack's energy and personality.  Jack kinda draws Ennis out of his shell by showing a genuine interest in Ennis' life, and by being able to listen without judging.  I think Ennis also sees a vulnerability in Jack (he's a bit useless really with tents, guns, can openers!).  Yet Jack sees the vulnerablity that Ennis tries to hide.  They compliment each other perfectly, but I'd be drawn to Jack because of his gregarious nature.

I also feel for Jack's situation and know of his frustration.

[jerasjr]

Well you know what they say about opposites attracting...Jack has my heart.  At first thought that it was because physically am attracted to dark hair, etc. but then... Jack is such a complex person with the outgoing easy manner and yet underneath that there is a wealth of emotion and passion.  It takes a person like Jack to
bring out the best in me, and boy would sure give it a try!

[n061857]

I worry what could happen to Ennis.  Jack was "discovered".  It wouldn't take much for people to assume that Ennis is gay too

I think people did know, in spite of what Ennis thought that he was very discreet.  Aguirre knew and he was based at Signal.  According to the short story Ennis's brother lived at Signal.  Later on Cassie would be working at a bar in Signal.  Aguirre kept his mouth shut?  In the story when Jack returns the next summer to see if Ennis has returned to BM and if he can get a job, the men in the parking lot look askance at Jack.  They know something.  How?

I think Ennis wasted all that time trying to be something he wasn't.  Aguirre saw them having sex.  People knew.  Like they say three people can keep a secret only if two of them are dead.  Ennis played the game and was a good boy.  Look where it got him.  Titus.

Titus,  I knew Acguirre knew.  Never quite figured out why he didn't seem to have spread the word?  Didn't catch that Ennis had a brother in Signal.  Also didn't catch the men in the parking lot.  I guess you mean outside Acguirre's trailer?  Any speculation on why Ennis was left alone?  Maybe because he kept it to himself and didn't bother anybody?  Not that I think Jack was bothering anyone, but homophobes I guess could be bothered by him. 
 Too bad ! 

A couple of questions to anyone who can answer.  I never heard of Mexico being a place of homosexual tolerance.   Is this so?  Also, Jack was always talking about Ennis moving to Texas.  I understand that he lived in Texas and that was his motivation, but aren't Texans in general very intolerant of homosexuals.  Thanks  to all!                                           - Nancy

[Patriot1]

A couple of questions to anyone who can answer.  I never heard of Mexico being a place of homosexual tolerance.   Is this so?  Also, Jack was always talking about Ennis moving to Texas.  I understand that he lived in Texas and that was his motivation, but aren't Texans in general very intolerant of homosexuals.  Thanks  to all!                                           - Nancy

Nancy, Mexico is no different than the United States.  There are male and female prostitutes in both countries.  It is just cheaper in Mexico.    And, there probably is a little more tolerance there because it is an impoverished country.  People make a living how they can.

This is now my opinion.  Rural Texans are intolerant of anything they don't like or understand.  Blacks, mixed marriages, homosexuals, you name it, they are intolerant.  But, I believe it is the same in most any rural community in America.  Education and sophistication are needed for people to be tolerant.  But, having said that, I hear things are changing with the young people of rural America due to things like MTV.  MTV presents homosexuals as a normal part of life.  I have seen programs on MTV about dating, and they will have 2 or 3 male female couples and a gay couple.  It is interesting how they integrate it.  There is a program called "Real World".  It is a program where 7 young people live together in the same house for 4 or 5 months.  Sort of a reality show.  Usually there is at least one gay person in the group.  Personally, I think MTV has been very instrumental in enlightening the youth of America about homosexuals.

Well, you asked a question.  I am sure you weren't asking for a novel.   

[n061857]

Well, you asked a question.  I am sure you weren't asking for a novel.   

Thanks for your input, Patriot 1.  Don't think you were long winded at all.                             - Nancy

[Titus]

What men in the parking lot are you referring to Titus?

  Sorry, Patriot, something I think I read about over on Dave Cullen as a scene that was cut from the final movie.  Don't know if they are right or not, but do know that Signal was (short storywise) a place where Ennis had a brother and folks who knew him.  The movie paints a picture of Ennis arriving from outside, so they don't agree.  Aguirre though would he have kept what he saw a secret?  Titus.

[Patriot1]

Aguirre though would he have kept what he saw a secret?  Titus.

I base this answer on what Ms. Proulx said in her essay which was published in Brokeback Mountain Story to Screenplay.

I thought it would be plausible for the characters to get into a sexual situation. That's nothing new or out of the ordinary; livestock workers have a blunt and full understanding of sexual behaviors of man and beast. High lonesome situation, a couple of guys---expediency sometimes rules and nobody needs to talk about it and that's how it is. One old sheep rancher, dead now, used to say he always sent up two men to tend the sheep "so's if they get lonesome they can poke each other." From that perspective Aguirre, the hiring man, would have winked and said nothing, and Ennis's remark to Jack that this was a one-shot deal would have been accurate.

I have read some harsh words about Aguirre here and on other forums but I thought he was an OK guy.

From the beginning Aguirre was a no nonsense, matter of fact guy that explained to the boys what the Federal rules were and what he expected. 

When he saw the boys having sex out in the open and then playfully chasing each other around, Aguirre looked at his watch and waited a sufficient amount of time to let the boys finish, get dressed and then to let Ennis get all the way to the top of the mountain where the sheep were to start working.  I thought that was thoughtful of him, especially seeing he was a no nonsense guy who had better things to do than wait around for the boys to finish.

I saw that Aguirre was angry with them but I thought he was angry that the boys weren't doing their jobs that he was paying them to do. He said as much when Jack came back the next year.  Aguirre wouldn't hire Jack again because he "wasn't gettin' paid to leave the dogs baby-sit the sheep while you stemmed the rose."

Also, when Jack asked about Ennis, look at Aguirre's face. An ever so slight grin came on his face just before he said "You boys sure found a way to pass the time up there."  I took this grin as 'boy! This guy del Mar must have been good for this kid to be looking for him again.'  or something like that.  But the grin was funny.

So, forty-two pages later, my answer to your question is, no I do not believe Aguirre would have said a word to anyone about the sex.  It was a natural thing.

[jagrafess]

I agree.  Aguirre was angry about their work but didn't appear to be too perterbed about their sexual habits!

He could have done so much to destroy those boys lives...spread rumours etc...but apparently he kept it to himself.

[n061857]

I have read some harsh words about Aguirre here and on other forums but I thought he was an OK guy.

From the beginning Aguirre was a no nonsense, matter of fact guy that explained to the boys what the Federal rules were and what he expected. 

When he saw the boys having sex out in the open and then playfully chasing each other around, Aguirre looked at his watch and waited a sufficient amount of time to let the boys finish, get dressed and then to let Ennis get all the way to the top of the mountain where the sheep were to start working.  I thought that was thoughtful of him, especially seeing he was a no nonsense guy who had better things to do than wait around for the boys to finish.

Patriot 1,  Thanks for the Annie Proulx quote.  Not being familiar with livestock workers, I did not really think of it that way.  I also took notice of Acguirre's response in that situation.  I thought he was very thoughtful here not to embarrassed Ennis and Jack by letting his presence known too soon.  Thanks.                                               - Nancy

[keren_b]

back to the original question - which character am I more drawn to?...

well, it's definitely Ennis for me. oh, he melts me. if I had one wish it would be for Ennis to push me agaisnt the wall and kiss me like he did to Jack... I've got butterflies in my stomach now.

[Titus]

I have read some harsh words about Aguirre here and on other forums but I thought he was an OK guy.

From the beginning Aguirre was a no nonsense, matter of fact guy that explained to the boys what the Federal rules were and what he expected. 

When he saw the boys having sex out in the open and then playfully chasing each other around, Aguirre looked at his watch and waited a sufficient amount of time to let the boys finish, get dressed and then to let Ennis get all the way to the top of the mountain where the sheep were to start working.  I thought that was thoughtful of him, especially seeing he was a no nonsense guy who had better things to do than wait around for the boys to finish.

Aguirre may have turned a blind eye to whatever happens between two men left alone on a mountain all summer, but I don't take his refusal to hire jack the next summer as a result of poor work.  Even after the sheep got mixed up with the other flock Ennis and Jack at least got the number right.  They don't appear to have had the 25% loss Jack had the previous summer.  The boys had no reason to think Joe would be pissed off with them.  What Annie says notwithstanding, Lee fleshed out her story and gave added nuances to what he had to work with.  The thanksgiving scene with Alma is a case in point, not in the story at all.  He and Alma simply drift apart.  There is no showdown between them.

My point is that Aguirre is just as homophobic as anyone else in 1963.  What he doesn't know doesn't hurt him, keep it that way.  But when Jack comes back looking for work all is held in check until Jack, desperate for news, asks if he has seen Ennis.  Out comes the hostility, "no work for you".  Aguirre is faced by Jack's love for Ennis, his need for him, the one shot thing that could easily be ignored as casual sex between two horny men who have no available women, is obviously much more.  It's affection, love even, and that breaks all the rules.  Screw what you like, but don't ever fall in love with another man.  Lee's Aguirre is an asshole.  "Stemming the rose" is not a neutral expression, its derogatory and insulting.  He's not on my Christmas card list.  Titus.