Author Topic: Which character are you more drawn to?  (Read 128543 times)

vedrana

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #240 on: Dec 18, 2008, 09:27 AM »
The dreams of Jack in the ss certainly show that as far as Ennis was concerned, Jack was still "present" -- perhaps more real than mundane reality itself... 

Yes, tpe! And at the end, I can only find that much comfort in all that unbearable pain!  :\'(

Others just don't make any difference - only Jack! In any form of presence!

Offline tpe

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #241 on: Dec 19, 2008, 10:06 AM »
*o) There was an experiment where scientist showed to a group of people 10-20 photos. One of the photos was always the photo of the chosen candidate, but reversed into the man or a woman and changed a bit. In that way candidate couldn't recognize his own face, but nevertheless most of them have chosen just themselves as the most beautiful!  This is the answer about the part of narcissism.  ;)

That is so interesting!

Quote
As for E&J sexual attraction at the beginning... I am not sure, I can not sense that between them. Not that it doesn't exist, it's just that I'm incapable of seeing it. But the beauty of their friendship and the growth of their unique relationship surpasses anything that I could ever expect from the movie!  <^(

Well, take a look at the first few posts of the surreptitious glances.  By the way they looked at each other, you can tell that there was a physical attraction there.  It couldn't have been anything else because they had yest to utter a single word!   ;D

Offline tpe

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #242 on: Dec 19, 2008, 10:08 AM »
Yes, tpe! And at the end, I can only find that much comfort in all that unbearable pain!  :\'(

Others just don't make any difference - only Jack! In any form of presence!

I feel for and with Ennis in the final scene -- because as I watched the movie, I shared that pain that was the loss of Jack.

Offline tpe

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #243 on: Dec 19, 2008, 10:09 AM »
I feel for and with Ennis in the final scene -- because as I watched the movie, I shared that pain that was the loss of Jack.

vedrana

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #244 on: Dec 19, 2008, 01:42 PM »
I feel for and with Ennis in the final scene -- because as I watched the movie, I shared that pain that was the loss of Jack.

I feel just the same! ^f^

We already spoke of it - they were each other reflecion - through one of them, we experience the other. We felt Ennis's pain so huge, as through it we felt the biggest possible loss in the movie -loss of Jack! And devastating impact that loss had on Ennis. It's a vicious circle of their unfortunate fate that we were put in. No way out!  :(




Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #245 on: Dec 19, 2008, 03:56 PM »
*o) There was an experiment where scientist showed to a group of people 10-20 photos. One of the photos was always the photo of the chosen candidate, but reversed into the man or a woman and changed a bit. In that way candidate couldn't recognize his own face, but nevertheless most of them have chosen just themselves as the most beautiful!  This is the answer about the part of narcissism.  ;)

As for E&J sexual attraction at the beginning... I am not sure, I can not sense that between them. Not that it doesn't exist, it's just that I'm incapable of seeing it. But the beauty of their friendship and the growth of their unique relationship surpasses anything that I could ever expect from the movie!  <^(
Wow..Thank you Loreen for this wonderful post.I think the experiment shows the human nature of the perception of self very vividly...I think Ennis and Jack in time saw the beauty of their friendship and love and recognized it but again so many other factors kept them from taking it more ahead..

vedrana

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #246 on: Dec 19, 2008, 04:33 PM »
Wow..Thank you Loreen for this wonderful post.I think the experiment shows the human nature of the perception of self very vividly...I think Ennis and Jack in time saw the beauty of their friendship and love and recognized it but again so many other factors kept them from taking it more ahead..

It was just that beauty which made them during so many years meet "in the middle of nowhere" and share even rare, but precious moments together.

Offline tpe

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #247 on: Dec 22, 2008, 09:47 AM »
I feel just the same! ^f^

We already spoke of it - they were each other reflecion - through one of them, we experience the other. We felt Ennis's pain so huge, as through it we felt the biggest possible loss in the movie -loss of Jack! And devastating impact that loss had on Ennis. It's a vicious circle of their unfortunate fate that we were put in. No way out!  :(

The fact that I am more drawn to Jack certainly doesn't negate our feelings and wmpathy/sympathy for Ennis here.  In fact, I think it enhances it.  Because we can actually put ourselves in Ennis's shoes...

The other way also works, BTW.  :)




Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #248 on: Dec 22, 2008, 11:16 AM »
The fact that I am more drawn to Jack certainly doesn't negate our feelings and wmpathy/sympathy for Ennis here.  In fact, I think it enhances it.  Because we can actually put ourselves in Ennis's shoes...

The other way also works, BTW.  :)

Yes,I agree again ¡ We can feel more drawn to Jack for his way of being,for his sufferings,his inconditional love during half his short life...thousands of reasons ¡. But,even if I must confess my rejection for Ennis behaviour in the first moments-as I have repeated some times here...-,loving Jack makes me now more understanding of Ennis point of view,as strange as it could seem.It's as if we tried to understand the reasons for which he denied him again and again,as a way to be closer to Jack by means of Ennis troubles acceptation.I don't know if this makes sense... :-\\
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #249 on: Dec 23, 2008, 09:19 AM »
Yes,I agree again ¡ We can feel more drawn to Jack for his way of being,for his sufferings,his inconditional love during half his short life...thousands of reasons ¡. But,even if I must confess my rejection for Ennis behaviour in the first moments-as I have repeated some times here...-,loving Jack makes me now more understanding of Ennis point of view,as strange as it could seem.It's as if we tried to understand the reasons for which he denied him again and again,as a way to be closer to Jack by means of Ennis troubles acceptation.I don't know if this makes sense... :-\\

Thanks MPJ.  I don't think we can truly say we love one independent of the other.  We may love one better, but it is always measured in the context of their love for each other. 

We are drawn to Ennis because -- after all -- he too loves Jack.  :)

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #250 on: Dec 23, 2008, 10:19 AM »
Thanks MPJ.  I don't think we can truly say we love one independent of the other.  We may love one better, but it is always measured in the context of their love for each other. 

We are drawn to Ennis because -- after all -- he too loves Jack.  :)

That is ¡ And we can feel that way closer to Ennis feelings; we are like him in this sense ¡. <^(
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

vedrana

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #251 on: Dec 23, 2008, 11:29 AM »
Thanks MPJ.  I don't think we can truly say we love one independent of the other.   We may love one better, but it is always measured in the context of their love for each other.  

We are drawn to Ennis because -- after all -- he too loves Jack.  :)


This is so true! In fact we love their love for each other, for that is the beauty we see in ourselves - loving other human being!

The one we love better is our weaker point, the one we'd personally like to comfort and love!

But we are not so madly attracted to any of them, but to both of them!  <^( <^( <^(

Ennis <^( Jack
Jack  <^( Ennis

Offline keren_b

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #252 on: Dec 23, 2008, 11:53 AM »
Sometimes people say that they don't understand Ennis, and they resent his behavior. I don't get that. Even in these modern days there are still, unfortunately, people who have problems accepting their sexuality, who hide it from their family and friends, who are afraid to come out. The reason is usually that they're afraid of the reaction, afraid of being rejected. Do we resent them for that? Do we get angry at them? Do we judge them?

Ennis was not only afraid of being rejected, he was afraid of getting killed. And he had reasons to be afraid. He grew up in a time and place where being gay was in no way acceptable, and he was taught that "queers" deserved to die. Do you know what a trauma it is for a 9 year old kid to see a dead body? Can you imagine the fears and the nightmares this kind of thing produces in a child? Can you imagine, after being told that this person deserved to die because he was queer, how terrifying it is to realize that you're also "like that"? That only meant one thing for Ennis - if anyone finds out, they'll kill him too. No wonder that he repressed his feelings as deeply as he could, and convinced himself that he wasn't queer. He didn't know anything about being gay and living with another man, he knew only two people who did that - Earl and Rich, and look what happened to them. He had no other role models. "Two men living together - no way". This thing wasn't even a possibility in Ennis's world, not where he grew up, not in the reality that he knew. All he knew was that "if this thing grabs hold of us in the wrong place, in the wrong time, we're dead". And he was terrified of that. Looking at his history and the trauma he carried with him, is that so hard to understand? Can anyone blame him for acting like he did? Is any of us in a position to judge him?
The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.

vedrana

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #253 on: Dec 23, 2008, 12:20 PM »
Sometimes people say that they don't understand Ennis, and they resent his behavior. I don't get that. Even in these modern days there are still, unfortunately, people who have problems accepting their sexuality, who hide it from their family and friends, who are afraid to come out. The reason is usually that they're afraid of the reaction, afraid of being rejected. Do we resent them for that? Do we get angry at them? Do we judge them?

Ennis was not only afraid of being rejected, he was afraid of getting killed. And he had reasons to be afraid. He grew up in a time and place where being gay was in no way acceptable, and he was taught that "queers" deserved to die. Do you know what a trauma it is for a 9 year old kid to see a dead body? Can you imagine the fears and the nightmares this kind of thing produces in a child? Can you imagine, after being told that this person deserved to die because he was queer, how terrifying it is to realize that you're also "like that"? That only meant one thing for Ennis - if anyone finds out, they'll kill him too. No wonder that he repressed his feelings as deeply as he could, and convinced himself that he wasn't queer. He didn't know anything about being gay and living with another man, he knew only two people who did that - Earl and Rich, and look what happened to them. He had no other role models. "Two men living together - no way". This thing wasn't even a possibility in Ennis's world, not where he grew up, not in the reality that he knew. All he knew was that "if this thing grabs hold of us in the wrong place, in the wrong time, we're dead". And he was terrified of that. Looking at his history and the trauma he carried with him, is that so hard to understand? Can anyone blame him for acting like he did? Is any of us in a position to judge him?

Keren  ^f^,

You're right about the homophobic environment. That is understandable. We (at least I) on the other hand are not judging him.

He didn't refuse Jack completely. He agreed to rare meetings "in the middle of nowhere", where (IMO) they could've be caught too! And I was always wondering how come that during so many years they haven't been caught.

Jack was open to the possibility to live with Ennis, and Ennis was accepting his love. So, it's not like Ennis rejected the idea and decide to deal with his marriage as best as he can. He ruined his marriage, had no steady/good job, lived alone and lonely.... but still didn't want to make a step foreward, a step which could've save them both.

That's what makes us/me in a little disapproval of his behaviour. But I am not judging him. It's just my huge regret that he destroyed chances for a "sweet life" for Jack and himself.  :\'(


Offline atalley

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #254 on: Dec 23, 2008, 05:35 PM »
Great post Karen!

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #255 on: Dec 26, 2008, 04:33 PM »
It was just that beauty which made them during so many years meet "in the middle of nowhere" and share even rare, but precious moments together.
Those few precious moments r something that Ennis will hold onto when Jack is physically gone...Those few moments spent "middle of nowhere " were one of the most meaningful moments of their lives...

vedrana

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #256 on: Dec 26, 2008, 04:42 PM »
Those few precious moments r something that Ennis will hold onto when Jack is physically gone...Those few moments spent "middle of nowhere " were one of the most meaningful moments of their lives...

Maybe those moments were the most meaningful not only because spent with the dearest person in the world, but also because so rare!  :\'( :\'( :\'(

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #257 on: Dec 26, 2008, 04:52 PM »
Maybe those moments were the most meaningful not only because spent with the dearest person in the world, but also because so rare!  :\'( :\'( :\'(
I agree...we all wish they had more of them...  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

Offline tpe

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #258 on: Dec 29, 2008, 09:26 AM »
That is ¡ And we can feel that way closer to Ennis feelings; we are like him in this sense ¡. <^(

This is so true! In fact we love their love for each other, for that is the beauty we see in ourselves - loving other human being!

The one we love better is our weaker point, the one we'd personally like to comfort and love!

But we are not so madly attracted to any of them, but to both of them!  <^( <^( <^(

Ennis <^( Jack
Jack  <^( Ennis

Thanks MPJ and loreen.  loreen , I find your point very interesting.  I too have thought of it in this way, and was surprised at how closely you mirrored the way I feel.


Offline tpe

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #259 on: Dec 29, 2008, 09:29 AM »
Sometimes people say that they don't understand Ennis, and they resent his behavior. I don't get that. Even in these modern days there are still, unfortunately, people who have problems accepting their sexuality, who hide it from their family and friends, who are afraid to come out. The reason is usually that they're afraid of the reaction, afraid of being rejected. Do we resent them for that? Do we get angry at them? Do we judge them?

Ennis was not only afraid of being rejected, he was afraid of getting killed. And he had reasons to be afraid. He grew up in a time and place where being gay was in no way acceptable, and he was taught that "queers" deserved to die. Do you know what a trauma it is for a 9 year old kid to see a dead body? Can you imagine the fears and the nightmares this kind of thing produces in a child? Can you imagine, after being told that this person deserved to die because he was queer, how terrifying it is to realize that you're also "like that"? That only meant one thing for Ennis - if anyone finds out, they'll kill him too. No wonder that he repressed his feelings as deeply as he could, and convinced himself that he wasn't queer. He didn't know anything about being gay and living with another man, he knew only two people who did that - Earl and Rich, and look what happened to them. He had no other role models. "Two men living together - no way". This thing wasn't even a possibility in Ennis's world, not where he grew up, not in the reality that he knew. All he knew was that "if this thing grabs hold of us in the wrong place, in the wrong time, we're dead". And he was terrified of that. Looking at his history and the trauma he carried with him, is that so hard to understand? Can anyone blame him for acting like he did? Is any of us in a position to judge him?

It is not hard to understand, because many of us have been in a similar place.  It doesn't have to be in exactly the same context.  But many of us know first-hand how it feels -- the fear and the deep wanting to belong.


vedrana

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #260 on: Dec 29, 2008, 10:36 AM »
Thanks MPJ and loreen.  loreen , I find your point very interesting.  I too have thought of it in this way, and was surprised at how closely you mirrored the way I feel.

I'm glad that you feel the same!  :^^)


Offline tpe

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #261 on: Dec 30, 2008, 09:13 AM »
I'm glad that you feel the same!  :^^)

This one is so true that I feel I must quote it again:

The one we love better is our weaker point, the one we'd personally like to comfort and love!



Offline happyday9

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #262 on: Jun 24, 2009, 10:14 PM »
To be honest, both. Yeah, I was drawn to both characters. One romantic and the other is serious. Like they were pretty much opposite to each other yet the same time in love for another. How sweet can that be.

Offline tpe

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #263 on: Jun 25, 2009, 06:23 AM »
To be honest, both. Yeah, I was drawn to both characters. One romantic and the other is serious. Like they were pretty much opposite to each other yet the same time in love for another. How sweet can that be.

They are, above all, complementary.  Opposite, but matching, as a lock matches a key.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #264 on: Jun 25, 2009, 12:36 PM »
They are, above all, complementary.  Opposite, but matching, as a lock matches a key.



Yes: complementary but opposite,opposite,but complementary.Maybe for this same reason,their love had such a great basis; because each one of them could give the other this part he needed...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Which character are you more drawn to?
« Reply #265 on: Jun 26, 2009, 11:22 AM »
Yes: complementary but opposite,opposite,but complementary.Maybe for this same reason,their love had such a great basis; because each one of them could give the other this part he needed...

Exactly.  Each one completes the other.  These are not differences that are grounded on fundamental incompatibilities; rather, they are based on basic affinities.