Author Topic: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?  (Read 41947 times)

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2006, 03:54 PM »
Hey, Bubba, I'd defend you the same way if anyone got on your case again.. Let me at'em!
No Sl*ts here (in the negative tranlation of the word since, Esme, you say you're okay with it by your definition), just highly sexed individuals, Jack Twist included. :)

"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

mactwck

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2006, 04:10 PM »



For example ... can anyone give a reason why Jack (and you know how much I adore Jack) didn't just leave Lureen and set up in Lighting Flat, regardless of what Ennis was doing??  Maybe if Jack set up a place for Ennis to go to - not some "pretend" place, but a actual done-deal - then maybe, just maybe, Ennis might have been tempted there like a bee to honey.  I always fault Ennis for turning Jack away all the time.  Did Ennis's complete negativity about the chances of them being able to ranch together erode Jack's confidence in being able to do that for himself??   :-\  I'm really confused on this issue, as you can tell. :P


I must admit to being as baffled as you on this point.  ???  Why wouldn't he move closer?  I think that if Jack had moved back things would have eventually worked out the way they both wanted and pined for.  Someone mentioned that Jack did not want to give up his comfortale life but I do not see that as he said, "Here I am" in the divorce scene. Damn them both for being so stubborn.


Offline donnaread

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2006, 04:14 PM »
tpe, we seem to have our own colloluquy this morn.  Think we're coming around to this point...Explore motivations, explore feelings, surmise, infer but in all of that do not hasten to denigrate.   A person may be drawn to one more than the other, fine.  A person may think they understand one more than the other.  A person may feel they are more like one the other.  With all of that in mind, and considering their faults and foibles, their story together is unsurpassable.

Jer I support you 100% on this. All of the characters in BBM were created to behave with a very specific purpose in mind and all succeeded so well which is why the story DOES work so well In our way we grow to love Jack, Ennis, Alma, Lureen. Alma Jr., Cassie, LaShawn, Randall, Mrs Twist and yes maybe we can even appreciate (probably not like) where Mr. Twist might be coming from. But like you I cannot stand by and see Jack labeled as a slut anymore than I can see Ennis labeled as uncaring or selfish. They both did what they had to do to make it work.

Maybe some of these people who label Jack unflatteringly are mistaking movie/Jack for  story/Jack.  In the story, Jack is much more...I'm not sure how to put this...materialistic and opportunistic?   To me the movie shines a much more "flattering" light on Jack, than the story does. 
This is the forest primeval.  The murmuring pines and the hemlocks, bearded with moss, and in garments green, indistinct in the twilight...but where are the hearts that beneath it leaped...

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2006, 04:25 PM »



For example ... can anyone give a reason why Jack (and you know how much I adore Jack) didn't just leave Lureen and set up in Lighting Flat, regardless of what Ennis was doing??  Maybe if Jack set up a place for Ennis to go to - not some "pretend" place, but a actual done-deal - then maybe, just maybe, Ennis might have been tempted there like a bee to honey.  I always fault Ennis for turning Jack away all the time.  Did Ennis's complete negativity about the chances of them being able to ranch together erode Jack's confidence in being able to do that for himself??   :-\  I'm really confused on this issue, as you can tell. :P


I must admit to being as baffled as you on this point.  ???  Why wouldn't he move closer?  I think that if Jack had moved back things would have eventually worked out the way they both wanted and pined for.  Someone mentioned that Jack did not want to give up his comfortale life but I do not see that as he said, "Here I am" in the divorce scene. Damn them both for being so stubborn.


Why would he?! Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't going to come build a life with Jack. He didn't hesitate because they didn't have a place set up to go to - he hesitated because he was fundamentally incapable of letting go of his  own fear and denial. Jack was right there in front of him ready to leave everything in his life behind to build a new life with Ennis. But he finally got the message that it wasn't Ennis' sense of obligation to his marriage that had been keeping them apart - it was Ennis himself. There would be no good reason to go to Lightning Flat - his father was a horrible person who always made him feel small. And he did at least have a comfortable life in Texas, not to mention a son that he loved. He loved Ennis more and would have left Bobby behind if Ennis said yes, but not for any other reason. And I don't think it would have worked out. Poor Ennis just didn't have it in him to take that kind of chance.
 :(
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2006, 04:29 PM »



For example ... can anyone give a reason why Jack (and you know how much I adore Jack) didn't just leave Lureen and set up in Lighting Flat, regardless of what Ennis was doing??  Maybe if Jack set up a place for Ennis to go to - not some "pretend" place, but a actual done-deal - then maybe, just maybe, Ennis might have been tempted there like a bee to honey.  I always fault Ennis for turning Jack away all the time.  Did Ennis's complete negativity about the chances of them being able to ranch together erode Jack's confidence in being able to do that for himself??   :-\  I'm really confused on this issue, as you can tell. :P


I must admit to being as baffled as you on this point.  ???  Why wouldn't he move closer?  I think that if Jack had moved back things would have eventually worked out the way they both wanted and pined for.  Someone mentioned that Jack did not want to give up his comfortale life but I do not see that as he said, "Here I am" in the divorce scene. Damn them both for being so stubborn.


Hey Mactwck - I agree, I don't think it would just be about creature comforts either.  It would be worthwhile exploring Jack deeper to try to eplain this, don't you think?  Nothing driving either man was ever that simple, that I could see.

I wonder if part of it had to do with him being afraid he would scare Ennis off completely if they were no longer some tangible barrier keeping them apart?  Ennis seems to avoid confrontation unless pushed, IMO, and at that point his reactions are less than reasonable, to say the least.  See how Ennis over-reacted to Jack suggesting that HE move closer to Jack?  Both men were walking a very fine line keeping their relationship together, guess they were able to figure it out for the better part of 20 years without ever having to speak of it, pretty impressive ...
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2006, 04:39 PM »

Why would he?! Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't going to come build a life with Jack. He didn't hesitate because they didn't have a place set up to go to - he hesitated because he was fundamentally incapable of letting go of his  own fear and denial. Jack was right there in front of him ready to leave everything in his life behind to build a new life with Ennis. But he finally got the message that it wasn't Ennis' sense of obligation to his marriage that had been keeping them apart - it was Ennis himself. There would be no good reason to go to Lightning Flat - his father was a horrible person who always made him feel small. And he did at least have a comfortable life in Texas, not to mention a son that he loved. He loved Ennis more and would have left Bobby behind if Ennis said yes, but not for any other reason. And I don't think it would have worked out. Poor Ennis just didn't have it in him to take that kind of chance.
 :(

Hey FlwrChild -

So many reasons aren't there, always, to NOT do something.  You're definitely pointed out some good ones.

Yes, Ennis's fear certainly was keeping them apart, just thought that maybe, since Jack was in a miserable marriage anyway, he could have left and at least moved closer to Ennis, or given Ennis a safe place to let go of or deal with his fear, instead of holding back waiting for Ennis to say "okay, leave your wife now, I'm ready"...

As I said, I'm of two minds on the issue, so appreciate the feedback ..

Just a "might have been" that had me wondering, I guess. 

No doubt John Twist seems like a miserable person, but the ranch was there for the taking, wouldn't require much capital for Ennis and Jack to set up, so it seems like it might have been a place to start ..

See - there it is again ... "might have been"...
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline edgar

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2006, 04:53 PM »
I'll weigh in here on this high-altitude, high-quality thread.

Faulting Jack:
Too focused on his own needs, with not enough empathy for Ennis. Not enough concern for Ennis's kids.

Faulting Ennis:
Friend, lover, relative, or even acquaintance, it is very bad form to just turn someone away who has driven from Texas to Wyoming. If any of you have ever driven that, it is a long, hard, drive. Ennis needed a slap up the side of the head for pushing Jack away at that point. He obviously should have said, "Go up to Lightning Flat for the weekend; I'll see you Monday at ....."

I think the idea is intriguing that Jack could move to LF and set up shop there and then he and Ennis could see each other more often. Problems with this idea: someone said that John Twist "made Jack feel small." Well, more than that, he made Jack feel.... well, pissed. Not pissed off, pissed on. Jack could NOT live in that house with that man.

Jack could, theoretically, have built a little cottage on the family property. Room for Ennis to come and stay sometime if he wanted.

HOWEVER.

Jack has some of the same reasons Ennis has to stay put. I for one admire Ennis for not forsaking his children to follow his dream. Jack also had a child, and he was very involved in Bobby's upbringing. I think the children are a big part of the motivations of each character that sometimes gets overlooked. We all know that Ennis refused to move to Texas because of the kids. Jack also is tied to Texas because of his kid. (Even though he sort of forgets about Ennis's kids at one point. Oh well.)

The reason the story is so heartbreaking is because there is no good solution to the problems that exist. Like tpe (who definitely needs to start a writing career) has said, we love Ennis and Jack partly *because* of their flaws, as in the great tragedies. Also as in the great tragedies (especially Greek) there is a sense that Fate will not allow certain things to happen. There is just no getting around it.

Whatever scenario we dream up, for THOSE GUYS, in THAT TIME, there was just no way out. "You can't fix it." "There ain't never enough." "No way."

How they both endure, exist, grow, stretch, resist, cry out under such circumstances is the essence of the story.

 :-\ :-\

Offline tpe

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2006, 05:06 PM »
The reason the story is so heartbreaking is because there is no good solution to the problems that exist.

Quote
How they both endure, exist, grow, stretch, resist, cry out under such circumstances is the essence of the story.

My heart is wedged between these two lines.  They sum up the root of all their imperfections.  The last line especially so.  It lays bare the foundation on which this entire story is built.


Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2006, 05:13 PM »
The reason the story is so heartbreaking is because there is no good solution to the problems that exist.

Quote
How they both endure, exist, grow, stretch, resist, cry out under such circumstances is the essence of the story.

My heart is wedged between these two lines.  They sum up the root of all their imperfections.  The last line especially so.  It lays bare the foundation on which this entire story is built.



Beautiful.  thank you tpe and Edgar for more to think on ... :)
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline BBBOY

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2006, 05:47 PM »

Hmm, I have to say I never once thought that Jack's taking off to Mexico was meant to imply that all he had gone to Ennis for was the sex.  And since the heart of the story is their life-long love for each other, I really can't believe that was the intent of the scene either...

Watching Jack drive away and trying  to recover from what had just happen it looks as if he went to Mexico entirely on impulse in reaction to his hurt, not out of a frustrated libido.  I've always believed, too, that this was the first time he had looked to be with another man since he and Ennis had reunited.

When you're rejected by someone you love, even if you know they're sorry for hurting you, it's not uncommon to lash back by doing something that might be considered self-destructive. Having Ennis turn him away like that was not only hurtful, it was humiliating.

There were likely a jumble of reasons why Jack took off for Mexico right then. Picking up a stranger when he knows how possessive Ennis is may have been a way to hit back and say "to hell with you, then". ; he may have wanted to punish Ennis - and himself for needing Ennis so bad that he had left himself open to humiliation; he may have just been so damn broken at that point and desperate for the touch of another human being (one he could maybe pretend was Ennis) that he sought out what cold comfort he could. 

Emotions are rarely a simple "one of" and everything gets mixed up together driving us to poor choices sometimes.  There was probably a lot going on in his head we haven't considered yet, these few possibilities just came to me.  And maybe the need for sex was in there too ...

But Mexico = simple sex ??  as Ennis said "no way!".

BTW - thinking about it now - by deciding to go to Mexico Jack was still being protective of Ennis.  Jack obviously knew that Mexico was "the place", he could pick up someone without too much danger to himself, Ennis would never need to know since it's so far out his circle, and this encounter would be completely anonymous.  There is absolutely no chance that Jack would start up a relationship with this one-night stand.  Which is likely why Randall's propostion to him later (quietly) freaked him out - it was the complete opposite of the Mexico situation.

Just my thoughts on the whole divorce misunderstanding debacle  .. since it kills me everytime.  Like Patriot1 and most others who have posted in this thread I don't think there was anything inherently bad in either man.  To use another Ennis-ism ..."they did the best they could "...

But as mentioned earlier, regardless of what we loving fans write here, I have seen in the media, in film reviews and articles, where some critics have cast Jack in a less then positive light.  Most likely these people had only seen the film once, which I think we can agree isn't enough pick up on all the undercurrents going on.  And of course, there are some people who just don't "get" it.  So to these people, maybe the trip to Mexico might seem to be just about sex.  We know better, of course, because we do "get" how much they loved each other, whatever their actions or words. :)


My 25 cents worth, since I appear to be incapable of giving only 2.   lol

Terrific post Miss.Red. I think you have made some very sharp observations about Jack and his trip to Mexico. I really can't add anything to it.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2006, 07:10 PM »

Why would he?! Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't going to come build a life with Jack. He didn't hesitate because they didn't have a place set up to go to - he hesitated because he was fundamentally incapable of letting go of his  own fear and denial. Jack was right there in front of him ready to leave everything in his life behind to build a new life with Ennis. But he finally got the message that it wasn't Ennis' sense of obligation to his marriage that had been keeping them apart - it was Ennis himself. There would be no good reason to go to Lightning Flat - his father was a horrible person who always made him feel small. And he did at least have a comfortable life in Texas, not to mention a son that he loved. He loved Ennis more and would have left Bobby behind if Ennis said yes, but not for any other reason. And I don't think it would have worked out. Poor Ennis just didn't have it in him to take that kind of chance.
 :(

Hey FlwrChild -

So many reasons aren't there, always, to NOT do something.  You're definitely pointed out some good ones.

Yes, Ennis's fear certainly was keeping them apart, just thought that maybe, since Jack was in a miserable marriage anyway, he could have left and at least moved closer to Ennis, or given Ennis a safe place to let go of or deal with his fear, instead of holding back waiting for Ennis to say "okay, leave your wife now, I'm ready"...

As I said, I'm of two minds on the issue, so appreciate the feedback ..

Just a "might have been" that had me wondering, I guess. 

No doubt John Twist seems like a miserable person, but the ranch was there for the taking, wouldn't require much capital for Ennis and Jack to set up, so it seems like it might have been a place to start ..

See - there it is again ... "might have been"...

MississaugaRed, you make more good points! And I too spend a lot of time thinking about "might have beens". In regard to Jack (and Ennis) working the ranch at Lightning Flat, I have to admit one thing I've always thought: Mr. Twist was a miserable, small man with a pretty nasty view of the world, but I always got the impression his real resentment toward Jack had nothing to do with sexual orientation, et al. I think he was pissed that Jack never came to work the ranch for him. I bet he wouldn't care if Jack brought in a tribe of cannibals as long as they did all the work and made it profitable! Though I'm sure he still would have been a son-of-a-B to Jack anyway. And as I reread my post here, I was a little appalled at how insistant it sounded. I hope it didn't come off as hostile or too adamant - it definitely was not intended that way.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline Patriot1

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2006, 08:09 PM »

makes sense ....I just don't like it.....but maybe because someone called me one on a forum here
Quote


LOL!!!  Bubba dear, your memory is getting as bad as mine is.  It was you who referred to yourself that way.  LOL!


Love this spot... it shows that we more senior ones are lively, funny, and with libidos definitely intact ;).  We are a pack to be reckoned with...it has been a bright spot to come here and see everyone haggling over Jack or Ennis or the extra, all of us with perfectly valid reasons, of course.  None as good as mine of course.  Look forward to hearing from you all again and again.

My DOB is 11/10/1950//placing me right in the middle of the SCORPIO sign...also born on this date: Richard Burton

I win the slut contest..hands down....LOL

« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 08:29 PM by Patriot1 »
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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2006, 08:17 PM »



For example ... can anyone give a reason why Jack (and you know how much I adore Jack) didn't just leave Lureen and set up in Lighting Flat, regardless of what Ennis was doing??  Maybe if Jack set up a place for Ennis to go to - not some "pretend" place, but a actual done-deal - then maybe, just maybe, Ennis might have been tempted there like a bee to honey.  I always fault Ennis for turning Jack away all the time.  Did Ennis's complete negativity about the chances of them being able to ranch together erode Jack's confidence in being able to do that for himself??   :-\  I'm really confused on this issue, as you can tell. :P


I must admit to being as baffled as you on this point.  ???  Why wouldn't he move closer?  I think that if Jack had moved back things would have eventually worked out the way they both wanted and pined for.  Someone mentioned that Jack did not want to give up his comfortale life but I do not see that as he said, "Here I am" in the divorce scene. Damn them both for being so stubborn.


Why would he?! Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't going to come build a life with Jack. He didn't hesitate because they didn't have a place set up to go to - he hesitated because he was fundamentally incapable of letting go of his  own fear and denial. Jack was right there in front of him ready to leave everything in his life behind to build a new life with Ennis. But he finally got the message that it wasn't Ennis' sense of obligation to his marriage that had been keeping them apart - it was Ennis himself. There would be no good reason to go to Lightning Flat - his father was a horrible person who always made him feel small. And he did at least have a comfortable life in Texas, not to mention a son that he loved. He loved Ennis more and would have left Bobby behind if Ennis said yes, but not for any other reason. And I don't think it would have worked out. Poor Ennis just didn't have it in him to take that kind of chance.
 :(

I was doing some thinking today about Jack and Mexico and then I saw a question I always had. I had always wondered why Jack didn't move back to Wyoming to be closer to Ennis. FlwrChild you said a lot of my thoughts on that. I think his marriage to Lureen was not necessarily horrible but it was  tolerable. I think Jack needed to have someone in his life and we all know the someone he wanted most was Ennis. He took a big chance in driving up to Wyoming after finding out about Ennis' divorce and he got his airplane shot out of the sky big time. Why is he going to move there- Ennis' reaction to the truck in the distance was very eye opening to Jack, almost a defining moment. IMO that would have been the perfect time for Ennis to suggest he stay- maybe not at Ennis' place but get a room in town or something. He had no trouble introducing his "fishing buddy" to his wife so what was the big deal in hanging out with an old friend in public? Jack had out of state plates- would that have been so bad to put up a friend for a few nights? Didn't people have distant relatives that came to visit them?

The divorce scene is tough to take. I'm sure Jack played out various scenarios in his mind during his 14 hour ride to Wyoming. I'm pretty certain that those scenarios were happy ones- I don't think he would have taken the drive if he thought he would be turned away. Now that is not Ennis' fault or doing- Jack did that of his own free will.  I don't believe for a second that Jack rode all that way for sex. I think he went there so that he and Ennis could work on their "game plan" in planning the future. I could just imagine that 14 hour ride back to Texas. How devastated he must have been to be turned down and away.  I agree that he went to Mexico out of frustration. i don't think it was retaliation or him just being a "slut". He was deeply wounded and where was he going to go? To his parents and have Papa Twist kicking him while he's down? Back home to Lureen? I think he went there to seek out comfort- albeit it was in the form of sex but he needed some comfort. IMO he was not proud of being there, he looked disgusted with himself like this is what I'm reduced to, these are the lengths I have to go to to get what I need. I think the ride to Wyoming was filled with happiness and hope. On the ride back he had a LOT of time to replay years of their relationship- and when you get wounded like that things you should have seen or realized before become oh so clear now.





“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline BBBOY

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #73 on: May 03, 2006, 08:36 PM »

makes sense ....I just don't like it.....but maybe because someone called me one on a forum here
Quote


LOL!!!  Bubba dear, your memory is getting as bad as mine is.  It was you who referred to yourself that way.  LOL!


Love this spot... it shows that we more senior ones are lively, funny, and with libidos definitely intact ;).  We are a pack to be reckoned with...it has been a bright spot to come here and see everyone haggling over Jack or Ennis or the extra, all of us with perfectly valid reasons, of course.  None as good as mine of course.  Look forward to hearing from you all again and again.

My DOB is 11/10/1950//placing me right in the middle of the SCORPIO sign...also born on this date: Richard Burton

I win the slut contest..hands down....LOL



LMAO!
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline BBBOY

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2006, 08:42 PM »

Why would he?! Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't going to come build a life with Jack. He didn't hesitate because they didn't have a place set up to go to - he hesitated because he was fundamentally incapable of letting go of his  own fear and denial. Jack was right there in front of him ready to leave everything in his life behind to build a new life with Ennis. But he finally got the message that it wasn't Ennis' sense of obligation to his marriage that had been keeping them apart - it was Ennis himself. There would be no good reason to go to Lightning Flat - his father was a horrible person who always made him feel small. And he did at least have a comfortable life in Texas, not to mention a son that he loved. He loved Ennis more and would have left Bobby behind if Ennis said yes, but not for any other reason. And I don't think it would have worked out. Poor Ennis just didn't have it in him to take that kind of chance.
 :(

I was doing some thinking today about Jack and Mexico and then I saw a question I always had. I had always wondered why Jack didn't move back to Wyoming to be closer to Ennis. FlwrChild you said a lot of my thoughts on that. I think his marriage to Lureen was not necessarily horrible but it was  tolerable. I think Jack needed to have someone in his life and we all know the someone he wanted most was Ennis. He took a big chance in driving up to Wyoming after finding out about Ennis' divorce and he got his airplane shot out of the sky big time. Why is he going to move there- Ennis' reaction to the truck in the distance was very eye opening to Jack, almost a defining moment. IMO that would have been the perfect time for Ennis to suggest he stay- maybe not at Ennis' place but get a room in town or something. He had no trouble introducing his "fishing buddy" to his wife so what was the big deal in hanging out with an old friend in public? Jack had out of state plates- would that have been so bad to put up a friend for a few nights? Didn't people have distant relatives that came to visit them?

The divorce scene is tough to take. I'm sure Jack played out various scenarios in his mind during his 14 hour ride to Wyoming. I'm pretty certain that those scenarios were happy ones- I don't think he would have taken the drive if he thought he would be turned away. Now that is not Ennis' fault or doing- Jack did that of his own free will.  I don't believe for a second that Jack rode all that way for sex. I think he went there so that he and Ennis could work on their "game plan" in planning the future. I could just imagine that 14 hour ride back to Texas. How devastated he must have been to be turned down and away.  I agree that he went to Mexico out of frustration. i don't think it was retaliation or him just being a "slut". He was deeply wounded and where was he going to go? To his parents and have Papa Twist kicking him while he's down? Back home to Lureen? I think he went there to seek out comfort- albeit it was in the form of sex but he needed some comfort. IMO he was not proud of being there, he looked disgusted with himself like this is what I'm reduced to, these are the lengths I have to go to to get what I need. I think the ride to Wyoming was filled with happiness and hope. On the ride back he had a LOT of time to replay years of their relationship- and when you get wounded like that things you should have seen or realized before become oh so clear now.






Quote

I don't want to sound like a sexist here but men and women do react differently under the same conditions. Jack went to Mexico because he didn't know what else to do after the ultimate rejection. He didn't want sex, he wanted love and I think men equate the 2 as the same. It's our weakness. Brains in our pants and all that. IMHO and I've had a little experience with men.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline edgar

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #75 on: May 03, 2006, 11:21 PM »
Jack driving all the way to Wyoming for sex? That's just silly.

Here's the deal. Ennis had written a postcard to Jack. Unscheduled. You can imagine how happy Jack was every time he got a postcard from Ennis. ((Btw--in the story, it's a *phone call* from Ennis. That was really something special.) The postcard said he was divorced.

Why did Ennis send this card?

He was reaching out to Jack. He wanted some emotional support, some sympathy--maybe he really was saying, in spite of himself, maybe now we can get together more often.

But then Ennis retreats back into the scared, macho Ennis when Jack shows up to call his bet.

I said it before, but Ennis needs to be slapped up the side of the head for that stiff refusal. That was raw.

Okay, so Jack is driving away. Maybe he went up to see Mom, but maybe he couldn't handle that at this time; and maybe his parents would think it strange for him to show up unannounced. So he has no choice but the head south.

He has lots of time to think on the way. And--whatever story he told Lureen when he left--he's not expected back home immediately. So....he's got some time to kill, and he kills it in Mexico.

Not very honorable, but it happens. He got a minimal amount of comfort from his actions, sort of like what Paul Simon says in his great song, "The Boxer"

"Asking only workman's wages I come looking for a job, but I get no offers
Just a come-on from the whores on 7th avenue.
I do declare there were times when I was so lonesome I took some comfort there."

Some comfort. That's all.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #76 on: May 03, 2006, 11:28 PM »
Jack driving all the way to Wyoming for sex? That's just silly.

Here's the deal. Ennis had written a postcard to Jack. Unscheduled. You can imagine how happy Jack was every time he got a postcard from Ennis. ((Btw--in the story, it's a *phone call* from Ennis. That was really something special.) The postcard said he was divorced.

Why did Ennis send this card?

He was reaching out to Jack. He wanted some emotional support, some sympathy--maybe he really was saying, in spite of himself, maybe now we can get together more often.

But then Ennis retreats back into the scared, macho Ennis when Jack shows up to call his bet.

I said it before, but Ennis needs to be slapped up the side of the head for that stiff refusal. That was raw.

Okay, so Jack is driving away. Maybe he went up to see Mom, but maybe he couldn't handle that at this time; and maybe his parents would think it strange for him to show up unannounced. So he has no choice but the head south.

He has lots of time to think on the way. And--whatever story he told Lureen when he left--he's not expected back home immediately. So....he's got some time to kill, and he kills it in Mexico.

Not very honorable, but it happens. He got a minimal amount of comfort from his actions, sort of like what Paul Simon says in his great song, "The Boxer"

"Asking only workman's wages I come looking for a job, but I get no offers
Just a come-on from the whores on 7th avenue.
I do declare there were times when I was so lonesome I took some comfort there."

Some comfort. That's all.

edgar, you are wise.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

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Offline Rønnaug

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2006, 01:43 AM »


I said it before, but Ennis needs to be slapped up the side of the head for that stiff refusal. That was raw.


I agree...
No matter how much jell-O you pour in the pool , you still can't walk on water

Offline NoReins

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #78 on: May 04, 2006, 02:16 AM »
Jack driving all the way to Wyoming for sex? That's just silly.

Here's the deal. Ennis had written a postcard to Jack. Unscheduled. You can imagine how happy Jack was every time he got a postcard from Ennis. ((Btw--in the story, it's a *phone call* from Ennis. That was really something special.) The postcard said he was divorced.

Why did Ennis send this card?

He was reaching out to Jack. He wanted some emotional support, some sympathy--maybe he really was saying, in spite of himself, maybe now we can get together more often.

But then Ennis retreats back into the scared, macho Ennis when Jack shows up to call his bet.

Maybe Ennis was expecting Jack to reply by postcard to arrange a date to get together (in the very near future)? Presumably that's how things worked normally as it couldn't just be one of them sending a card and assuming the other would make it. Maybe he didn't think for a second that Jack would be that impulsive...

I said it before, but Ennis needs to be slapped up the side of the head for that stiff refusal. That was raw.

Yup, not even I can defend Ennis here. He should have done what someone above suggested and told Jack to hang out in Lightning Flat till the weekend was over and then they could be together for a night or two.

Okay, so Jack is driving away. Maybe he went up to see Mom, but maybe he couldn't handle that at this time; and maybe his parents would think it strange for him to show up unannounced. So he has no choice but the head south.

He has lots of time to think on the way. And--whatever story he told Lureen when he left--he's not expected back home immediately. So....he's got some time to kill, and he kills it in Mexico.

Not very honorable, but it happens. He got a minimal amount of comfort from his actions, sort of like what Paul Simon says in his great song, "The Boxer"

"Asking only workman's wages I come looking for a job, but I get no offers
Just a come-on from the whores on 7th avenue.
I do declare there were times when I was so lonesome I took some comfort there."

Some comfort. That's all.

I like that - some comfort, that's all. That's how I see it too.
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Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2006, 07:44 AM »

MississaugaRed, you make more good points! And I too spend a lot of time thinking about "might have beens". In regard to Jack (and Ennis) working the ranch at Lightning Flat, I have to admit one thing I've always thought: Mr. Twist was a miserable, small man with a pretty nasty view of the world, but I always got the impression his real resentment toward Jack had nothing to do with sexual orientation, et al. I think he was pissed that Jack never came to work the ranch for him. I bet he wouldn't care if Jack brought in a tribe of cannibals   ;D ;D ;D as long as they did all the work and made it profitable! Though I'm sure he still would have been a son-of-a-B to Jack anyway. And as I reread my post here, I was a little appalled at how insistant it sounded. I hope it didn't come off as hostile or too adamant - it definitely was not intended that way.

FlwChild, you make us think and present valid arguments for your points, good things both, so never worry that you were coming across as being hostile and adamant is a good thing when you passionately believe in something, so no worries.  Plus ...  you just made me LOL big time with that line about the cannibals - what a visual! ;D  Hysterical!

I can agree with your take on John Twist here too, for the most part.  If he had an inkling of Jack's orientation, it wouldn't have been a welcome bit of news, but IMO not being able to get Jack to do what he wanted him to do that was really sticking in his craw.  He did come across as one controlling SOB, didn't he?  His poor wife certainly seemed cowed.  I give huge kudos to Jack for staying out from under his daddy's thumb and still being able to maintain some kind of a relationship with his parents at the same time.  Our Jack was talented at walking fine lines in all his relationships, it seems.

If we can allow for a second that the point Jerasjr is trying to make here is maybe less about Ennis being "bad"  and more about the anti-bashing of Jack, then I have to admit I started feeling guilty for the times I may have come across as bashing Ennis. I get mad enough sometimes to smack him (apparently I'm not the only one), mostly each time he turns down every overture Jack makes for them to make a life together. Yes, I understand his reasons and feel for him, but it's exasperating nonetheless. So to play devil's advocate, I thought it only fair to ask by  Jack himself didn't make the move closer to Ennis. 

So, exploring that scenario by suggesting LF as a possibly ranching site for Jack & Ennis was mostly based on the fact that it was a family holding, no big financial outlay needed, looked pretty isolated so few prying eyes, and still in Wyoming so Ennis could visit his girls regularly.  As everyone has pointed out, though, none of that would have meant a hill of beans if Jack and his father couldn't find a way to get along.  Or unless Ennis could let go of his fear of exposure long enough to admit he had a once in a lifetime love with another man.  Some excellent posts in response here covering all points, great reading.

Edgar, BBboy, LuvJackNasty, NoReins, you have all made excellent observations here which help balance those actions we might deem hurtful, self-destructive, heartbreaking, fearful, etc., with an understanding of the motivations behind them.  Including BBboy's comment that men and women don't always react in the same way, especially regarding love and sex.  :)

And as Edgar said earlier and as has been acknowledged many times in this forum, the boys did the best they could for who they were, where they were, when they were.  And love that quote from "the Boxer'.   Seeking comfort in an uncomfortable world, that could describe many of the choices Jack (and Ennis?) make during their lives.  From wives, to jobs, to staying in a familiar setting rather than risking the unknown.

The suggestion, however, that maybe Jack's impulsive visit to Ennis after his divorce might have forestalled a future invitation from Ennis to come up and talk about their options, must admit I can't really see ... 

Ennis might be conflicted and afraid, but he certainly had no problem laying out the boundaries on their relationship when they first reunited.  And I don't think he would have played games with Jack, he loved him too much.  Can't see him being scared off that easily either by Jack's unexpected appearance IF he was seriously considering getting together with him permanently. Ennis wasn't that delicate a flower (low startle point??) that this would make him back off if he'd already made up his mind about something, IMO.   I doubt it had even occurred to Ennis that this was finally his chance to make a change.  How can Jack be responsible here for what Ennis doesn't say or do??   :-\

See, Jerasjr .. worms everywhere! ;)
 

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Offline bubbaluna

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2006, 08:53 AM »


I said it before, but Ennis needs to be slapped up the side of the head for that stiff refusal. That was raw.


I agree...

Couldn't agree with you more...cruelest thing Ennis did to Jack.......broke my heart
If you want something in life...don't frustrate yourself...take it.....

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2006, 11:31 AM »


 Jack went to Mexico because he didn't know what else to do after the ultimate rejection. He didn't want sex, he wanted love .....

Exactly!


“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #82 on: May 04, 2006, 02:23 PM »
Quoted from MississaugaRed earlier today:

"Our Jack was talented at walking fine lines in all his relationships, it seems."

He sure was. And I've learned that's not an easy talent to cultivate.

Also, I love your use of "Our Jack". They really are our boys, aren't they?
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

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Offline Rønnaug

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2006, 02:31 PM »


Also, I love your use of "Our Jack". They really are our boys, aren't they?

THay are :) and that is why we love them, good and or bad, thay are not black and white card board cut outs, thay are flawed and real
No matter how much jell-O you pour in the pool , you still can't walk on water

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #84 on: May 04, 2006, 02:39 PM »


Also, I love your use of "Our Jack". They really are our boys, aren't they?

THay are :) and that is why we love them, good and or bad, thay are not black and white card board cut outs, thay are flawed and real

We can all share "Our Jack" but you must all promise handle him with care and return him safely when done.  No bashing. :) (as if WE would ..ha!)
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline bubbaluna

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #85 on: May 04, 2006, 02:41 PM »


Also, I love your use of "Our Jack". They really are our boys, aren't they?

THay are :) and that is why we love them, good and or bad, thay are not black and white card board cut outs, thay are flawed and real

We can all share "Our Jack" but you must all promise handle him with care and return him safely when done.  No bashing. :) (as if WE would ..ha!)

Absolutely NO bashing....
If you want something in life...don't frustrate yourself...take it.....

Offline Rønnaug

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #86 on: May 04, 2006, 02:45 PM »
Featherlight "bashing" in confined quarters of a private bed on the other hand....
No matter how much jell-O you pour in the pool , you still can't walk on water

Offline MississaugaRed

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #87 on: May 04, 2006, 02:50 PM »
Featherlight "bashing" in confined quarters of a private bed on the other hand....

see above re: handle with care and RETURN safely when done .... :)
"Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein loma-làn easgannan".
My hovercraft is full of eels.

“I miss you,” Jack whispered. “I miss you.” He felt loved. He felt heard. Shades of Grey by MidwestGirl

Offline BBBOY

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #88 on: May 04, 2006, 04:13 PM »
Not very honorable, but it happens. He got a minimal amount of comfort from his actions, sort of like what Paul Simon says in his great song, "The Boxer"

"Asking only workman's wages I come looking for a job, but I get no offers
Just a come-on from the whores on 7th avenue.
I do declare there were times when I was so lonesome I took some comfort there."

Some comfort. That's all.

This is an excellent way to describe what he did.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?
« Reply #89 on: May 04, 2006, 07:53 PM »

MississaugaRed, you make more good points! And I too spend a lot of time thinking about "might have beens". In regard to Jack (and Ennis) working the ranch at Lightning Flat, I have to admit one thing I've always thought: Mr. Twist was a miserable, small man with a pretty nasty view of the world, but I always got the impression his real resentment toward Jack had nothing to do with sexual orientation, et al. I think he was pissed that Jack never came to work the ranch for him. I bet he wouldn't care if Jack brought in a tribe of cannibals   ;D ;D ;D as long as they did all the work and made it profitable! Though I'm sure he still would have been a son-of-a-B to Jack anyway. And as I reread my post here, I was a little appalled at how insistant it sounded. I hope it didn't come off as hostile or too adamant - it definitely was not intended that way.

FlwChild, you make us think and present valid arguments for your points, good things both, so never worry that you were coming across as being hostile and adamant is a good thing when you passionately believe in something, so no worries.  Plus ...  you just made me LOL big time with that line about the cannibals - what a visual! ;D  Hysterical!

I can agree with your take on John Twist here too, for the most part.  If he had an inkling of Jack's orientation, it wouldn't have been a welcome bit of news, but IMO not being able to get Jack to do what he wanted him to do that was really sticking in his craw.  He did come across as one controlling SOB, didn't he?  His poor wife certainly seemed cowed.  I give huge kudos to Jack for staying out from under his daddy's thumb and still being able to maintain some kind of a relationship with his parents at the same time.  Our Jack was talented at walking fine lines in all his relationships, it seems.

If we can allow for a second that the point Jerasjr is trying to make here is maybe less about Ennis being "bad"  and more about the anti-bashing of Jack, then I have to admit I started feeling guilty for the times I may have come across as bashing Ennis. I get mad enough sometimes to smack him (apparently I'm not the only one), mostly each time he turns down every overture Jack makes for them to make a life together. Yes, I understand his reasons and feel for him, but it's exasperating nonetheless. So to play devil's advocate, I thought it only fair to ask by  Jack himself didn't make the move closer to Ennis. 

So, exploring that scenario by suggesting LF as a possibly ranching site for Jack & Ennis was mostly based on the fact that it was a family holding, no big financial outlay needed, looked pretty isolated so few prying eyes, and still in Wyoming so Ennis could visit his girls regularly.  As everyone has pointed out, though, none of that would have meant a hill of beans if Jack and his father couldn't find a way to get along.  Or unless Ennis could let go of his fear of exposure long enough to admit he had a once in a lifetime love with another man.  Some excellent posts in response here covering all points, great reading.

Edgar, BBboy, LuvJackNasty, NoReins, you have all made excellent observations here which help balance those actions we might deem hurtful, self-destructive, heartbreaking, fearful, etc., with an understanding of the motivations behind them.  Including BBboy's comment that men and women don't always react in the same way, especially regarding love and sex.  :)

And as Edgar said earlier and as has been acknowledged many times in this forum, the boys did the best they could for who they were, where they were, when they were.  And love that quote from "the Boxer'.   Seeking comfort in an uncomfortable world, that could describe many of the choices Jack (and Ennis?) make during their lives.  From wives, to jobs, to staying in a familiar setting rather than risking the unknown.

The suggestion, however, that maybe Jack's impulsive visit to Ennis after his divorce might have forestalled a future invitation from Ennis to come up and talk about their options, must admit I can't really see ... 

Ennis might be conflicted and afraid, but he certainly had no problem laying out the boundaries on their relationship when they first reunited.  And I don't think he would have played games with Jack, he loved him too much.  Can't see him being scared off that easily either by Jack's unexpected appearance IF he was seriously considering getting together with him permanently. Ennis wasn't that delicate a flower (low startle point??) that this would make him back off if he'd already made up his mind about something, IMO.   I doubt it had even occurred to Ennis that this was finally his chance to make a change.  How can Jack be responsible here for what Ennis doesn't say or do??   :-\

See, Jerasjr .. worms everywhere! ;)
 




Miss-Red

I give huge kudos to Jack for that as well. He became the man he was not because of his father but in spite of him. I also can’t see where Jack’s impulsiveness thwarted any plans Ennis may have had for a future invite. As I said in another post, I’m sure Jack was thinking that he was going to go up there and they would plan their future.

IMO if Ennis had any plans to invite Jack up so they could talk about their options at a later date, he wouldn’t have sent Jack on his way without at least saying something in regards to that. It may not have been the best time to do so and he was caught off guard but still….

As you said- he had no problems laying out the boundaries in their relationship and he isn’t a delicate flower. He was impulsive with that reunion kiss and then leaving for a few days with Jack. He was seen in Jack’s truck when they drove to the motel. His reluctance to ask Jack to stay isn’t because of the girls- he introduced Jack to them {meaning asking him to get a place in town or something as the girls were staying with Ennis}. I’m trying to figure out what made him so damned paranoid about a truck in the distance.

I think him going to Mexico was for comfort as I’ve stated in prior posts but I’m thinking it’s also him trying to take control on some level. That ride back was long and he had a lot of time to think- the poor guy isn’t “good enough” for the men in his life- his father, LD Newsome and Ennis only seems to want him when they are hidden away somewhere. He has to be the one to concede to all of these people whether he likes it or not. Randall was one of the few people in Jack’s life where Jack didn’t have to do all/most of the work. I used to think that look on Jack’s face after Randall propositions him was Jack thinking of Ennis. Now I’m starting to think it was shock or maybe surprise- ‘Wow here’s a guy who is actually approaching ME; I don’t have to go looking for it, he’s making himself available to me, etc.”  I think that was empowering to Jack. Even though that scene absolutely rips my heart out and stomps all over it, I’m glad he stood up to Ennis their last time together. I don’t think he’d ever give up on Ennis, nor would I want him to {and that is a different thread anyway} but I think being with Randall made it a lot easier for him to speak his mind.

I also don’t want to come across as bashing Ennis- as I’ve said before- I love both of them and I feel for both of them but that doesn’t stop me from being aggravated at some of the things he {Ennis} does or doesn’t do.


“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon