Topic: Ennis/Jack skipped breakfast after FNIT?

[smartestsonia]

thankyou guys for all the post and all the intersting observations..its really great reading them..

I think Ennis very well knew how he felt for Jack in the morning....although a part of him dint wana accept that and a part of him just knew the truth....he was surrounded by all these conflicting thoughts as he knew the truth...when he was alone the whole next day he was thinking about Jack and what will he react in front of him.....he knew he couldnt run away from this and sooner or later had to confront Jack..He could not even pretent that it never happened as it was too huge and close to his heart..it was a breakout of all the emotions in him....

[tpe]

Never mind being sober enough to know what he was doing.  It's the  "I'll stick with beans" philosophy, out the window.  All of Ennis beliefs were being shifted,  "Sheep be damned."

That first night with Jack changed him fundamentally.  No matter what happened afterward he'd never denied his need for Jack, but after the reunion, Ennis couldn't think of being without Jack.   

This is a very insightful way of tracing Ennis's development over the years, as reflected in his deepening need for Jack.  Not even his conflictedness in the later years truly weakended this -- in spite of appearances.

[tpe]

thankyou guys for all the post and all the intersting observations..its really great reading them..

I think Ennis very well knew how he felt for Jack in the morning....although a part of him dint wana accept that and a part of him just knew the truth....he was surrounded by all these conflicting thoughts as he knew the truth...when he was alone the whole next day he was thinking about Jack and what will he react in front of him.....he knew he couldnt run away from this and sooner or later had to confront Jack..He could not even pretent that it never happened as it was too huge and close to his heart..it was a breakout of all the emotions in him....

Yes, I do think that it was coming to terms with the truth (i.e., about his feelings for Jack) that Ennis struggled with after FNIT -- the truth at this point was never in question.  He knew how he felt, and the struggle was coming to terms with what he could not control or deny himself, in spite of all his fears and prejudices.

[smartestsonia]

Yes, I do think that it was coming to terms with the truth (i.e., about his feelings for Jack) that Ennis struggled with after FNIT -- the truth at this point was never in question.  He knew how he felt, and the struggle was coming to terms with what he could not control or deny himself, in spite of all his fears and prejudices.

This struggle was huge for Ennis…he realized the truth…but to accept it completely was a challenge… he knew that and had to come to terms with that …..he had to come out with what he felt opposed to what he feared…I am happy that he followed his heart that night and dint deny his feelings that night..that meant a lot to both of them

[tpe]

This struggle was huge for Ennis…he realized the truth…but to accept it completely was a challenge… he knew that and had to come to terms with that …..he had to come out with what he felt opposed to what he feared…I am happy that he followed his heart that night and dint deny his feelings that night..that meant a lot to both of them

I do think that after FNIT, it was up to Ennis to affirm or deny.  I think the subsequent affirmation had a lot to do with Jack's immediate presence.  One wonders what could have been had they been allowed to see each other during the intervening 4 years.  perhaps the seeds of fear and the bitter harvest could have been averted.

[smartestsonia]

I do think that after FNIT, it was up to Ennis to affirm or deny.  I think the subsequent affirmation had a lot to do with Jack's immediate presence.  One wonders what could have been had they been allowed to see each other during the intervening 4 years.  perhaps the seeds of fear and the bitter harvest could have been averted.

exactly, he did respond to his feelings at SNIT as Jack was around and also as they were just 2 of them at the Brokeback Mountain....so he could be himself and express the way he truely felt.... I feel that if there was an intervening time between those 4 years then they would be more aware about how they feel..I mean 4 years is a really long time and there can be alot of changes in life...I think if they met in the 4 years they would be more aware of the fact that life without each other can just be miserable even though during the 4 years they had fought their thoughts and emotions and that fact...its like atleast there is some kind of satisfaction in life to be in touch with someone u love and care about...

[tpe]

exactly, he did respond to his feelings at SNIT as Jack was around and also as they were just 2 of them at the Brokeback Mountain....so he could be himself and express the way he truely felt.... I feel that if there was an intervening time between those 4 years then they would be more aware about how they feel..I mean 4 years is a really long time and there can be alot of changes in life...I think if they met in the 4 years they would be more aware of the fact that life without each other can just be miserable even though during the 4 years they had fought their thoughts and emotions and that fact...its like atleast there is some kind of satisfaction in life to be in touch with someone u love and care about...

Thanks smartestsonia.  I have drifted to the conclusion that the 4 intervening years was crucial and was perhaps the defining period that sowed the seeds of their future hardships.  But to get back to the time immediately after the FNIT, I think Jack did good to seek out Ennis up in the mountains.  Had he not done this on his own initiative, SNIT would not have been a possibility.  It was clear that Ennis took strength in Jack's presence there and then -- notice that he didn't avoid Jack or hid from him or even angrily confronted him when Jack went up to where he was.  His relatively calm and deliberate spelling out of how he saw it may have been a ruse, but I think Jack's presence really didn't disturb him in the same way his own internal fears did...

[smartestsonia]

Thanks smartestsonia.  I have drifted to the conclusion that the 4 intervening years was crucial and was perhaps the defining period that sowed the seeds of their future hardships.  But to get back to the time immediately after the FNIT, I think Jack did good to seek out Ennis up in the mountains.  Had he not done this on his own initiative, SNIT would not have been a possibility.  It was clear that Ennis took strength in Jack's presence there and then -- notice that he didn't avoid Jack or hid from him or even angrily confronted him when Jack went up to where he was.  His relatively calm and deliberate spelling out of how he saw it may have been a ruse, but I think Jack's presence really didn't disturb him in the same way his own internal fears did...

Thanks Thomas   

Jacks presence definitely wouldnt disturb Ennis as he himself wanted jack to be there...the way he embraced and kissed him at the 4 year reunion scene speaks volumes..He needed Jack but the fears in him took over the most of him. The fear of being humiliated, teased, abandoned and killed always was a turmoil in Ennis mind..His conflicting feelings were fighting all that as opposed to his true love and wants. I am very happy that he responded to his feelings at SNIT else whole life they would have wondered what could have happened ...its obvious that they would have never forgotten each other ever..however, the SNIT took their relationship to the next level....

I personally dont think Ennis would felt the same for another man if Jack wasnt there or even if he would anytime of his life he would not have emoted it..its Jack who made him feel very comfortable..after FNIT jack gave him his space for Ennis to himsef come to the terms with the fact that he is falling in love with him....I may be wrong but this is what I feel about Ennis....

[tpe]

Thanks Thomas   

Jacks presence definitely wouldnt disturb Ennis as he himself wanted jack to be there...the way he embraced and kissed him at the 4 year reunion scene speaks volumes..He needed Jack but the fears in him took over the most of him. The fear of being humiliated, teased, abandoned and killed always was a turmoil in Ennis mind..His conflicting feelings were fighting all that as opposed to his true love and wants. I am very happy that he responded to his feelings at SNIT else whole life they would have wondered what could have happened ...its obvious that they would have never forgotten each other ever..however, the SNIT took their relationship to the next level....

I personally dont think Ennis would felt the same for another man if Jack wasnt there or even if he would anytime of his life he would not have emoted it..its Jack who made him feel very comfortable..after FNIT jack gave him his space for Ennis to himsef come to the terms with the fact that he is falling in love with him....I may be wrong but this is what I feel about Ennis....

I think Ennis feared himself more than he feared Jack -- well, not that he ever feared Jack.  As you said, I think Jack was a reassuring element in his life, and his withdrawal after the FNIT signified more a withdrawal into himself rather than a "pushing out" of Jack.   I do feel that Jack always gave Ennis the space he needed, and no place is this more apparant than in the scenes after FNIT.  Even though he passively sought out Ennis later in the day, he was certainly not confrontational, and let Ennis bring the matter up in this own time and in his own terms.

[myprivatejack]

I think Ennis feared himself more than he feared Jack -- well, not that he ever feared Jack.  As you said, I think Jack was a reassuring element in his life, and his withdrawal after the FNIT signified more a withdrawal into himself rather than a "pushing out" of Jack.   I do feel that Jack always gave Ennis the space he needed, and no place is this more apparant than in the scenes after FNIT.  Even though he passively sought out Ennis later in the day, he was certainly not confrontational, and let Ennis bring the matter up in this own time and in his own terms.

I think Ennis also feared Jack,for the hidden feelings and sensations he had awaken in him; but is true that he feared himself the most.He feared above all where he was able to arrive with these feelings and sensations...I've always thought that Jack knew this,accept it and respect it; so,it wasn't difficult to him to give Ennis this space he needed in order to come to terms with them.Enough time as to let him "digest" what had happenned,but not so much time as to let things "getting cold"between them,knowing the inner struggle he had then.Sometimes I feel Jack was the most and best psychologist of both.

[smartestsonia]

wow Tomas and MPJ   interesting analysis  I completely agree with both of u..Ennis did realize that Jack could see through the real him and he could not hide himself from that..he knew jack exactly knew him and his vulnerability...I think even though Jack was confident that Ennis felt the same a part of Jack also must have feared that Ennis would not acknowledge his feelings due to the depths of fear he had in his mind and due to the extreme rules and narrow mindedness of the society.....Inspite of this, Jack was very patient with Ennis and that comforted Ennis.. he did not overwhelm him and this quality of Jack made Ennis himself come to him.

[topoex]

i've read much of what people have written.  i hope i got it right.  to me when ennis went to jack on that hill.  maybe out of guilt for what happened,  he saw a part of himself he didn't know was there.  how did jack see him?  as queer, does he do this a lot with other guys, this just a one thing or whatever.   he made his case, and jack accepted it.  without any guilt he returned to him. 

[tpe]

Thanks, MPJ, smartestsonia, and topoex.

On the subject of fear -- I think we fear most especially the censure/disapproval of people we truly care about and who we fell care about us.  I know that it is common to say that for a relationship to be healthy, the persons in it must not be afraid to express themselves to the other.  But at the same time, I think that there is always an element of this "fear" of dispproval in an living relationship, and its absence would signify that we had ceased to care anymore -- meaning that the relationship is dead.

And topoex, yes, I think that jack did reveal to Ennis a part of himself that he never really knew/suspected.But I also think that although Ennis's meeting with Jack after FNIT allayed his fears, it perhaps didn't really get rid of them.  The substance of the scenes after FNIT was that Ennis learned to accept his feelings for Jack together with his own fears -- that the latter couldn't suppress the former.

[Asali]

Thomas I so totally agree with your post.

[smartestsonia]

Thanks, MPJ, smartestsonia, and topoex.

On the subject of fear -- I think we fear most especially the censure/disapproval of people we truly care about and who we fell care about us.  I know that it is common to say that for a relationship to be healthy, the persons in it must not be afraid to express themselves to the other.  But at the same time, I think that there is always an element of this "fear" of dispproval in an living relationship, and its absence would signify that we had ceased to care anymore -- meaning that the relationship is dead.

And topoex, yes, I think that jack did reveal to Ennis a part of himself that he never really knew/suspected.But I also think that although Ennis's meeting with Jack after FNIT allayed his fears, it perhaps didn't really get rid of them.  The substance of the scenes after FNIT was that Ennis learned to accept his feelings for Jack together with his own fears -- that the latter couldn't suppress the former.

Well said Thomas. In my opinion, if the relationship is new there is a fear of losing something special which is just received….the fear of getting to know something or to reveal a part of u in a new relationship is there as there is a fear of losing the person. The apprehension of telling about ones past or something that one is not proud of is there as one does not want to lose what one has in a new relationship. When the relationship has matured there is also a fear of losing what u have with someone for years as that becomes a part of your soul. If that goes away u lose a part of the real u…

After FNIT Ennis got a startle as he could not neglect his feelings anymore…The entire day went in dealing with all his the mind boggling thoughts…At SNIT Ennis affirmed his feelings…Even then his fears were there.They were still a major part of him all along…although the fact that they were alone on the mountain calmed his fears. Even if there would be a shadow of someone around Ennis, his fears would have had taken over his love. As we can make out the main reason is his childhood traumatic experience of seeing the dead person as well as the society taboos, the fear of rejection, name calling, abandonment etc..It all sums up to this….As for Jack who is the sweetest thing on earth, (well, I am  crazy after him   ) had been patient with Ennis after FNIT as he exactly knew that Ennis needs time to come in terms with this fact. Am glad that Ennis accepted this…. my heart goes out as I am writing this as I can actually feel Ennis fears…I can understand what he must have been through. It's horrible when u love someone but can't acknowledge it to the world or have to keep fighting with it your whole life :\'(

[tpe]

Thanks Asali and smartestsonia!

I cannot stress enough that this fear of  losing something special is particularly acute when the relationship is new and untried/untested.  Putting to rest any such fear can be considered to be the first great test of any relationship -- a trust that the other will go the distance even as one puts oneself out in a vulnerable position.

And I do think that we can see this fear in both Ennis and Jack after FNIT.  We see it certainly with Ennis.  But even in Jack...  When he tries to reassure Ennis when they finally meet up in the mountainside, we can sense the tension in Jack's look and voice.  He was not about to give up Ennis very easily...

[myprivatejack]

Both of them showed their fears that night,it's true; but I do feel that Jack was afraid of loosing,while Ennis was afraid of finding...

[babytammy7]

After FNIT Ennis got a startle as he could not neglect his feelings anymore…The entire day went in dealing with all his the mind boggling thoughts…At SNIT Ennis affirmed his feelings…Even then his fears were there.They were still a major part of him all along…although the fact that they were alone on the mountain calmed his fears. Even if there would be a shadow of someone around Ennis, his fears would have had taken over his love. As we can make out the main reason is his childhood traumatic experience of seeing the dead person as well as the society taboos, the fear of rejection, name calling, abandonment etc..It all sums up to this….
As for Jack who is the sweetest thing on earth, (well, I am  crazy after him   ) had been patient with Ennis after FNIT as he exactly knew that Ennis needs time to come in terms with this fact. Am glad that Ennis accepted this…. my heart goes out as I am writing this as I can actually feel Ennis fears…I can understand what he must have been through. It's horrible when u love someone but can't acknowledge it to the world or have to keep fighting with it your whole life :\'(

Ennis was confused and scared after FNIT, but he went along...because Jack took him by surprise that night. I think that with FNIT, SNIT and the Reunion Kiss Ennis realized how vulnerable he was around Jack, with no reins, scared that that "thing" could make him show to the world how "mishapped" he was, how weak. So yeah, Jack gave him wings to feel thanks to FNIT, but, like Vane (Gothica_Vanessa) said, Jack had pushed the door open, taking Ennis by surprise, and Ennis had followed, of course. But Jack knew that making that breach had only turned all the rest in a real damn impregnable fort. Showing to Ennis where the weakness was, so that Ennis could cement it shut and never to break again.

BTW, Cleo, hold on, baby. I'm on my way!! Soon you'll get it!!!! YAYAYAYAY!!! 

[gothica_vanessa]

I JUST TOTALLY AGREE WITH THOSE BITS
thanks everyone for sharing

I wonder how Ennis felt with the lost of control from a man who seemed to keep his emotions in deep check. He couldn't fight off that desire, not that he was drunk, but that is what he wanted. He wanted Jack, and didn't or couldn't stop himself. 
How confused he must of felt the next morning, this desire which seemed not to have happened with Alma, but with Jack.  His sexual desire becomes so overpowering that he couldn't control it. 

Thanks Asali!  The first time a watched BBM, I was actually surprised that Ennis didn't use his inebriated state as an excuse.  It told me that there was something much deeper thanjust the sex.

O YES YOU BET

I think Ennis also feared Jack,for the hidden feelings and sensations he had awaken in him; but is true that he feared himself the most.He feared above all where he was able to arrive with these feelings and sensations...I've always thought that Jack knew this,accept it and respect it; so,it wasn't difficult to him to give Ennis this space he needed in order to come to terms with them.Enough time as to let him "digest" what had happenned,but not so much time as to let things "getting cold"between them,knowing the inner struggle he had then.Sometimes I feel Jack was the most and best psychologist of both.

But I also think that although Ennis's meeting with Jack after FNIT allayed his fears, it perhaps didn't really get rid of them. The substance of the scenes after FNIT was that Ennis learned to accept his feelings for Jack together with his own fears -- that the latter couldn't suppress the former.

it all would have been better if ennis had changed a bit about that you made me cry here thomas

Both of them showed their fears that night,it's true; but I do feel that Jack was afraid of loosing,while Ennis was afraid of finding...

privatejack, really, WOW, that IS a very powerful way to sum it all up !!!

vanessa

[smartestsonia]

Thanks Asali and smartestsonia!

I cannot stress enough that this fear of  losing something special is particularly acute when the relationship is new and untried/untested.  Putting to rest any such fear can be considered to be the first great test of any relationship -- a trust that the other will go the distance even as one puts oneself out in a vulnerable position.

And I do think that we can see this fear in both Ennis and Jack after FNIT.  We see it certainly with Ennis.  But even in Jack...  When he tries to reassure Ennis when they finally meet up in the mountainside, we can sense the tension in Jack's look and voice.  He was not about to give up Ennis very easily...

I do feel that Jack also had the fear of losing Ennis...even though he knew that Ennis wanted him too he knew the depths of Ennis fear..so he literally tried to hold on and be patient the next day..If he would have confronted Ennis with passion the next morning then Ennis would have got too guarded and overwhelemed..So he gave him the time and space he needed..am sure a 1000 thoughts were running across Jack's mind...Although Jack kept himself together as he wanted to support Ennis as he knew what Ennis is going through...I think when Ennis accepted it at SNIT, it was complete declaration of pure love from both of them..

Jack would never give up on Ennis..He meant too much to him....Sometimes just the presence of a loved one is enough to give support and Jack was there for Ennis wrapped up with so much love, affection as well as the fear of losing him ..Although he dint show the fear part openly....he never wanted to give up on something so precious...

[tpe]

Both of them showed their fears that night,it's true; but I do feel that Jack was afraid of loosing,while Ennis was afraid of finding...

Very succinct way of putting it!

[tpe]

it all would have been better if ennis had changed a bit about that you made me cry here thomas

Sorry Vanessa.     It's at the heart of the whole tragedy.  It moves us in spite of ourselves.

[tpe]

I do feel that Jack also had the fear of losing Ennis...even though he knew that Ennis wanted him too he knew the depths of Ennis fear..so he literally tried to hold on and be patient the next day..If he would have confronted Ennis with passion the next morning then Ennis would have got too guarded and overwhelemed..So he gave him the time and space he needed..am sure a 1000 thoughts were running across Jack's mind...Although Jack kept himself together as he wanted to support Ennis as he knew what Ennis is going through...I think when Ennis accepted it at SNIT, it was complete declaration of pure love from both of them..

Jack would never give up on Ennis..He meant too much to him....Sometimes just the presence of a loved one is enough to give support and Jack was there for Ennis wrapped up with so much love, affection as well as the fear of losing him ..Although he dint show the fear part openly....he never wanted to give up on something so precious...

Exactly.  I think I had said this elsewhere, but Jake had a knack of reading Ennis correctly.  Perhaps he understood Ennis better than Ennis understood his own fears -- especially in the scenes after FNIT.  But behind all this is indeed Jack's motivation of not giving Ennis up to his (Ennis's) fears and reservations.  We would see him biding his time for the next 20 years...

[smartestsonia]

Exactly.  I think I had said this elsewhere, but Jake had a knack of reading Ennis correctly.  Perhaps he understood Ennis better than Ennis understood his own fears -- especially in the scenes after FNIT.  But behind all this is indeed Jack's motivation of not giving Ennis up to his (Ennis's) fears and reservations.  We would see him biding his time for the next 20 years...

wow..thats great Thomas that we think alike about this....After the FNIT Jack did fear that Ennis would not return to him... After the SNIT when Ennis did come to him he was overjoyed…After the SNIT the fear was not losing what they already have… For 20 years Jack tries hard so they don’t lose each other and so that Ennis does not succumb into his fears…What I really like about Jack is that he is very subtle in his attempts and does not push Ennis over the edge...Even when he tells Ennis that they could live together, after Ennis drops the idea Jack does not get angry…he understands why Ennis is so...He can empathize with the traumatic childhood experience Ennis had and he touches his face...that was so beautiful and showed how much Jack cared for him and how much he dint wana lose Ennis and wanted to make sure that he is alright

[tpe]

Thanks smartestsonia!

I think Jack's fear showed in his not waiting for Ennis to come back to camp for supper.  He apparently went up to where the sheep were grazing, and waited for Ennis.  The fact that he waited for Ennis and didn't confront him directly shows the depth of Jack's understanding of Ennis and his situation.  This is I think what you call Jack's subtlety -- and like you, I love it very much. 

[smartestsonia]

Ennis was confused and scared after FNIT, but he went along...because Jack took him by surprise that night. I think that with FNIT, SNIT and the Reunion Kiss Ennis realized how vulnerable he was around Jack, with no reins, scared that that "thing" could make him show to the world how "mishapped" he was, how weak. So yeah, Jack gave him wings to feel thanks to FNIT, but, like Vane (Gothica_Vanessa) said, Jack had pushed the door open, taking Ennis by surprise, and Ennis had followed, of course. But Jack knew that making that breach had only turned all the rest in a real damn impregnable fort. Showing to Ennis where the weakness was, so that Ennis could cement it shut and never to break again.

BTW, Cleo, hold on, baby. I'm on my way!! Soon you'll get it!!!! YAYAYAYAY!!! 

Awww Tammy..u r such a sweetheart ...u r so kind and affectionate and I cant thank you enough dear.....I am so excited... yehhhhh  ....just for my information let me know if u r sending it by post or courier....

Ya, as u said Ennis was confused and scared as he realized that he has strong feelings for Jack but the confusion was that whether he should go ahead or not..the feelings were so intense and he couldnt deny it..Jack was around and his presence made Ennis feel more drawn towards him..After the FNIT when they met in the evening Jack hardly spoke to him..but the fact that Jack was around was enough for Ennis to just flow like a strong stream of river towards him..he became vulnerable as the love and the undeniable feelings were gushing through him yet the fear was also there..."When you cant fix it you got to stand it"...OMG..when he said that line in the second half of the film my heart skips a beat as so much pain can be expressed in that line..the struggle to come to terms with what he is and also to hide it from others...
Vanessa (Gothica_Vanessa) has beautifully mentioned that Jack showed Ennis the way and he followed as he realized what he wanted and he followed his heart...As we can see that Ennis knew that Jack saw the real him and his vulnerablitiy but he also knew that Jack understood him...Jack wanted to make sure that love which can be ones strength can also be a weakness to the person but it is significant being weak as u r weak for someone u cant live without or someone who is a part of u and who means too much to u.....its it worth it?

[vedrana]

So beautiful thread! Lovely thoughts about Ennis&Jack's love!

I loved when the morning after FNIT Jack got up and followed Ennis who was just about to leave, just to say "See you at the supper!" only to make contact with Ennis! He is so lovely, and Ennis was so closed at the time! Maybe never so much as then! Cos it was the first time (maybe even in his life) when he lost his control completely and he just needed to have a control over his life.

I felt fo him when he came back to Jack, dare not to look at him and made some stupid excuses. Jack was also so vulnerable and lovely than.

Between FNIT and SNIT so many things were going on in both of their minds. Their disturbance was accompained with a disturbing music. Ennis was riding, working, moving around to let his feelings go. He was sexy that morning! 

Jack, on the other side made everything to prepare the next step for two of them. He was so cute when he was washing the clothes! So lovely when he was waiting for Ennis in the tent!

That is the best part of the movie, cos it is so distant from the end, and it brings us their physical and physological love! Beautiful! 

In fact I think that I am going to put my CD and watch only that part... a few times...

[tpe]

The interesting thing about the scenes between FNIT and SNIT is that they are largely without spoken dialogue.  It's just the music that sets the mood and the tone for the most part -- up until they talk about the arrangement on the mountainside.  I don't think there was any need for words, in fact.   We FELT what was on their minds.

[vedrana]

The interesting thing about the scenes between FNIT and SNIT is that they are largely without spoken dialogue.  It's just the music that sets the mood and the tone for the most part -- up until they talk about the arrangement on the mountainside.  I don't think there was any need for words, in fact.   We FELT what was on their minds.

Not only that there's a lack of dialogue (which is not so uncommon) but the music was of the most disturbing mood in the whole movie. I watch it last night... It was great, but at the end I always end up sad!  :\'(

[tpe]

You must admit though that there was purpose in all the tension -- because this very tension in the music led beautifully into the music that accompanied the SNIT.