Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines (Read 414560 times)

jackster · « **Reply #510 on:** Dec 13, 2007, 02:48 PM »

I've always seen the intermittent view of Ennis as seen through the wheels of the passing train as a metaphor for the 20 year relationship of Ennis & Jack, i.e. - There; Gone; There; Gone; There; Gone; etc. Just MHO. But I can now see these other views as well.

tpe · « **Reply #511 on:** Dec 14, 2007, 08:39 AM »

Quote from: jackster on Dec 13, 2007, 02:48 PM

I've always seen the intermittent view of Ennis as seen through the wheels of the passing train as a metaphor for the 20 year relationship of Ennis & Jack, i.e. - There; Gone; There; Gone; There; Gone; etc. Just MHO. But I can now see these other views as well.

Truthfully, I had thought about the train scene before, but have never thought of it this way until now. Thanks friends for brining this up. It's a wonderful metaphor, IMO.

welshwitch · « **Reply #512 on:** Dec 15, 2007, 11:58 AM »

The train is also a powwerful symbol - it represents the coming of industrialisation and the opening up of the West, as in "Westward the Course of Empire Takes its Way". It suggests to me that J and E are to some extent out of their time, in a world and way of life that's passing, while the future is also passing them by.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #513 on:** Dec 15, 2007, 12:49 PM »

Fantastically well said. These are some great insights. Thanks everyone.

tpe · « **Reply #514 on:** Dec 17, 2007, 08:59 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Dec 15, 2007, 11:58 AM

The train is also a powwerful symbol - it represents the coming of industrialisation and the opening up of the West, as in "Westward the Course of Empire Takes its Way". It suggests to me that J and E are to some extent out of their time, in a world and way of life that's passing, while the future is also passing them by.

Wonderful.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #515 on:** Dec 19, 2007, 02:28 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Dec 17, 2007, 08:59 AM

Wonderful.

Some the very best posts on the forum are in this thread imo. I'm always learning new lessons in the film. Thanks everyone.

Dont't know if any one has said this but,I feel the very title of the film speaks volumes. Brokeback is a mountain, has a very solid foundation. such as their love, but there are rocky surfaces, and stomy weather, some dangerous and scarey places here even predators dwell.

As was their love. It was a mountain hard to climb. , Intimidating in it's strength,their love reached highs and lows. But the mountain is also beautiful. it's scenery wide open and free. It's what Ennis and Jack :f)found on Brokeback. At times, this was their love too.

I feel a mountain is a fitting symbol of their journey of love. So high you can't get over it, so big you can't get arround it. Jack felt leaving Brokeback Mt. was an end of a beginning, Jack was serious about his dreams with Ennis, all he needed was Ennis himself. . Ennis felt it as the beginning to an end. He knew he could not deny accepting Jack's love , givin so freely, yet he felt undeserving of it. Jack has the nearly impossible task of making Ennis feel differently. That's a hard mountain to climb, and for him it was.

Did they ever conquer this mountain? I feel Jack reached the top and looked over, Ennis joined him only after Jack's death in the closet scene, when he found the shirts. , Ennis's moment of love lost and found. Too bad they could'nt reach the top together.

tpe · « **Reply #516 on:** Dec 19, 2007, 07:43 AM »

Thanks aintfoolin!

I certainly felt that the mountain was a symbol of something that was double-edged, as you implied. Even the name itself -- broke back -- speaks of some kind of tribulation, no? At least this is the impression I get. Perhaps it implies Love's labors...

Nikita111 · « **Reply #517 on:** Dec 19, 2007, 04:18 PM »

Quote from: ethan on May 25, 2006, 05:41 PM

Reading every post makes my heart ache. I don't think there will ever be one that fills the love of Ennis and Jack. Thanks for your thoughts.

ENNIS AND JACK :\'( :\'( :\'(

lamusica · « **Reply #518 on:** Dec 19, 2007, 07:26 PM »

Besides being such a rugged mountain, Broke Back Mountain was ponderous, which to me, always meant, too heavy to lift or to carry. That's why I think it was chosen by Annie as the name of the place where Ennis and Jack fell into their relationship. They found love, but neither of them were to find it easy to carry the weight of that love through their lives. No matter where they were, or whom they were with, the weight of BBM and what that signified always oppressed them. By that, I mean their love, while wonderful and deep and powerful, also sat heavily upon them, thus making them always aware that being apart, they were not able to live their love outwardly, fully, together. I think it's the perfect name for that mountain, and the mountain is the perfect symbol for a love that so completely dominated the two men. Again kudos to Annie.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #519 on:** Dec 19, 2007, 08:18 PM »

Great posts aintfoolin' and Lamusica! :\'(

tpe · « **Reply #520 on:** Dec 20, 2007, 07:45 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Dec 19, 2007, 07:26 PM

Besides being such a rugged mountain, Broke Back Mountain was ponderous, which to me, always meant, too heavy to lift or to carry. That's why I think it was chosen by Annie as the name of the place where Ennis and Jack fell into their relationship. They found love, but neither of them were to find it easy to carry the weight of that love through their lives. No matter where they were, or whom they were with, the weight of BBM and what that signified always oppressed them. By that, I mean their love, while wonderful and deep and powerful, also sat heavily upon them, thus making them always aware that being apart, they were not able to live their love outwardly, fully, together. I think it's the perfect name for that mountain, and the mountain is the perfect symbol for a love that so completely dominated the two men. Again judos to Annie.

The moutain always seemed to loom large between them as much as it kept them together, I suppose.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #521 on:** Dec 20, 2007, 08:22 AM »

This is true. The mountain was always between them. Wether they were at the peak, (The Dozy Embrace) or in the valley, ( the divorce scene) ,The passion of love was shown. Even in the end, when Jack acknowledged that it was the mountain that stood between them , it was all they had to build on. Their love was an immovable, stubborn force, but as Jack said "Brokeback got us good" , implying that even if they wanted to, they could'nt quit each other. No one else was really gonna do with these two. MO.

orangetruck · « **Reply #522 on:** Dec 20, 2007, 10:32 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Dec 20, 2007, 08:22 AM

This is true. The mountain was always between them. Wether they were at the peak, (The Dozy Embrace) or in the valley, ( the divorce scene) ,The passion of love was shown. Even in the end, when Jack acknowledged that it was the mountain that stood between them , it was all they had to build on. Their love was an immovable, stubborn force, but as Jack said "Brokeback got us good" , implying that even if they wanted to, they could'nt quit each other. No one else was really gonna do with these two. MO.

Absolutely lovely.

tpe · « **Reply #523 on:** Dec 21, 2007, 07:51 AM »

The mountain is truly a metaphor for their relationship, no? The highs and the lows. The adamantine quality. The immobility. That which lasts forever, even as things change and die.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #524 on:** Dec 21, 2007, 08:04 AM »

But in the end didn't Jack surrendered to the mountain, and recognizing what an important part it play in realationship with Ennis, and that in the end it was his favorite place, and wanted his ashes there. Jack knew even then it was him, Ennis and the mountain. Even though his greatest fear was that it was all they would have, that later it was all he wanted.

tpe · « **Reply #525 on:** Dec 21, 2007, 08:16 AM »

I think in the end, he resigned himself to the fact that this was what he will only have -- but also, this was what he will always have.

stephan · « **Reply #526 on:** Dec 21, 2007, 02:04 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Dec 21, 2007, 08:16 AM

I think in the end, he resigned himself to the fact that this was what he will only have -- but also, this was what he will always have.

Beautiful, tpe

About the Brokeback Mountain being their love : it also makes me remember the words of Jack's father. He didn't want Jack (his ashes) to go there.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #527 on:** Dec 22, 2007, 03:33 AM »

Jack's father did alot for his own selfish reasons. Denied Jack a father's love and friendship. This has always irked me badly towards Mr. Twist. After Jack finally escapes his tyranny and abuse, making something of his life, the likes of the old man steps in the way of Jack's last wishes. To be scatterd over Brokeback mountain. It's where he found the most acceptance and happiness.

I see the only thing double meaning here is the standards he applied to himself with an implication that he was somewhat justified in how he treated Jack. like he was a bastion of sweetness and light for Jack, Yeah right.. Put his failure as a father in more favor by putting himself above Ennis's audacity to love his son. His gay son. He was just wrong, so does'nt really matter what he wanted in the end. while I'm going long I would just say that Jack turned out to be a sensitive, kind, and nurturing person, very giving of himself despite his father. .blessed with a insight of fate itself imo

. He was able to tap into Ennis's conflicted soul Like preserving the shirts, and displaying them the way he did. he believed. Chose a postcard with mountains, reminding Ennis and preserving the love. He writes it's "long overdue, another "clue to Ennis. These two elements of the postcard says : Mountains+"long overdue"= remember Brokeback. and only Ennis would know they meant something special.... little "vintageJack" things like this reasurred Ennis that he still loved and cared.

Alma was partially right when she guessed Jack was some one Ennis "cowboyed with" and Brokeback was not a pretend place , but a real place, complete with bluebirds singing and a whiskey...oops

(almost) a whiskey spring. Both had good times up there. It was their "favorite place".

My thoughts.

I wish all of you and yours a very Happy Peaceful Holiday and a great new year.!!

myprivatejack · « **Reply #528 on:** Dec 22, 2007, 12:16 PM »

I ALSO WISH YOU A VERY HAPPY CHRISTMAS HOLIDAYS AND A BETTER NEW YEAR,AINTFOOLIN¡

A double meaning,or something similar,to me appears in the confrontation scene when they left BBM.An scene where they passed from a game-when Jack puts his lasso around Ennis,as a way to make the moment a bit lighter...-to a fight.As a mix,in this case,of relief of the nerves that the situation provokes in them,a rage for leaving each other and perhaps in Ennis case,disgust for what has passed in BBM and what he must deal with in the real world they're going to face soon.
For me this changing situation to pass from playing to fighting could mean their own passing from the paradise on Earth that BBM to the real world,this one that could easily "fight" with them,beat them morally and socially speaking.A change that produced itself as quickly as they passed to one situation to the other during their last physical contact in BBM.I don't know if all this makes sense...

Marge Innavera · « **Reply #529 on:** Dec 22, 2007, 02:38 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Dec 15, 2007, 11:58 AM

The train is also a powwerful symbol - it represents the coming of industrialisation and the opening up of the West, as in "Westward the Course of Empire Takes its Way". It suggests to me that J and E are to some extent out of their time, in a world and way of life that's passing, while the future is also passing them by.

One more comment on the train thingy:

Most historians of the old West (US) consider the end of the frontier era to be the finishing of the railroad line across the continent. The coming-of-age of the railroads meant not only increased urbanization but, on another level, the shrinking of possibilities and the freedom that the frontier symbolized. (Sometimes appropriately and sometimes not...)

tpe · « **Reply #530 on:** Dec 26, 2007, 08:43 AM »

Quote from: stephan on Dec 21, 2007, 02:04 PM

About the Brokeback Mountain being their love : it also makes me remember the words of Jack's father. He didn't want Jack (his ashes) to go there.

I somehow felt that John Twist's refusal also had a hideen meaning -- that he was not willing to acknowledge his son's source happiness -- as if he resented him having even that one source of consolation.

tpe · « **Reply #531 on:** Dec 26, 2007, 08:47 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Dec 22, 2007, 03:33 AM

Jack's father did alot for his own selfish reasons. Denied Jack a father's love and friendship. This has always irked me badly towards Mr. Twist. After Jack finally escapes his tyranny and abuse, making something of his life, the likes of the old man steps in the way of Jack's last wishes. To be scatterd over Brokeback mountain. It's where he found the most acceptance and happiness.

I see the only thing double meaning here is the standards he applied to himself with an implication that he was somewhat justified in how he treated Jack. like he was a bastion of sweetness and light for Jack, Yeah right.. Put his failure as a father in more favor by putting himself above Ennis's audacity to love his son. His gay son. He was just wrong, so does'nt really matter what he wanted in the end. while I'm going long I would just say that Jack turned out to be a sensitive, kind, and nurturing person, very giving of himself despite his father. .blessed with a insight of fate itself imo

. He was able to tap into Ennis's conflicted soul Like preserving the shirts, and displaying them the way he did. he believed. Chose a postcard with mountains, reminding Ennis and preserving the love. He writes it's "long overdue, another "clue to Ennis. These two elements of the postcard says : Mountains+"long overdue"= remember Brokeback. and only Ennis would know they meant something special.... little "vintageJack" things like this reasurred Ennis that he still loved and cared.

Alma was partially right when she guessed Jack was some one Ennis "cowboyed with" and Brokeback was not a pretend place , but a real place, complete with bluebirds singing and a whiskey...oops (almost) a whiskey spring. Both had good times up there. It was their "favorite place". My thoughts.

I wish all of you and yours a very Happy Peaceful Holiday and a great new year.!!

aintfoolin, I had not yet read your post when I wrote my previous post. You elucidate it here better than I did, to be sure. Yes, I felt that John Twist's behavior was full of double meanings -- that for everything he spoke about or touched during this scene with Ennis on LF had someting hidden underneath. And although some members do disagree with this, I do feel that he was able to tap into Ennis's psyche in a way that could only have been accomplished by someone who understood the true meaning of Ennis's visit, and was resolute in not granting him anything for his troubles.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #532 on:** Dec 26, 2007, 08:41 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Dec 22, 2007, 03:33 AM

. He was able to tap into Ennis's conflicted soul Like preserving the shirts, and displaying them the way he did. he believed. Chose a postcard with mountains, reminding Ennis and preserving the love. He writes it's "long overdue, another "clue to Ennis. These two elements of the postcard says : Mountains+"long overdue"= remember Brokeback. and only Ennis would know they meant something special.... little "vintageJack" things like this reasurred Ennis that he still loved and cared.

Your whole post was beautiful but this part made me cry. :\'( And I agree Jack grew up into the man he was despite his father.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #533 on:** Jan 04, 2008, 10:46 AM »

We´ve spoken largely before about the meaning of colours as a reflex of both characters,and,even,in significative scenes as the reunion´s.But,have you realised that Ennis only wears blue clothes when he´s away from Jack?:In the farewell scene with Cassie,in Thanksgiving Day,in the scene of the firewoks...What do you mean that means?.

tpe · « **Reply #534 on:** Jan 04, 2008, 03:35 PM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Jan 04, 2008, 10:46 AM

We´ve spoken largely before about the meaning of colours as a reflex of both characters,and,even,in significative scenes as the reunion´s.But,have you realised that Ennis only wears blue clothes when he´s away from Jack?:In the farewell scene with Cassie,in Thanksgiving Day,in the scene of the firewoks...What do you mean that means?.

Interesting also. Could it mean that he remembers Jack this way -- during the dry spells when they are apart?

aintfoolin · « **Reply #535 on:** Jan 06, 2008, 09:40 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Dec 26, 2007, 08:47 AM

aintfoolin, I had not yet read your post when I wrote my previous post. You elucidate it here better than I did, to be sure. Yes, I felt that John Twist's behavior was full of double meanings -- that for everything he spoke about or touched during this scene with Ennis on LF had someting hidden underneath. And although some members do disagree with this, I do feel that he was able to tap into Ennis's psyche in a way that could only have been accomplished by someone who understood the true meaning of Ennis's visit, and was resolute in not granting him anything for his troubles.

Yes Tpe, I agree. Sorry so long getting back but yes Mr. Twist was full of double meanings and contradictions during Ennis's visit. His own guilt was probably diminished somewhat after Jack's death, so he thought, but along comes Ennis, someone who loved and cared for Jack despite his failure as a father. Obviously he felt Ennis had no right being there but there he was. Despite his efforts to humiliate Ennis (mentioning Randall and so forth...), Ennis was there on Jack's behalf to carrying out his last wishes.

Mr. Twist tried to turn it into a test of wills. His hatred for what Ennis's presence there meant, against the love Jack had for this man and v/v despite that hatred..They were two men who Jack felt had failed him in different ways. The one who sought a peaceful redemption was redeemed. The other continued to drown in self-righteous anger. Ennis did'nt get the answers he wanted regarding the ashes, but Jack had went one better. the shirts, a monument wrapped up in a testament of undying love for him. thru Jack, he and Ennis had the last word in the end imo.

tpe · « **Reply #536 on:** Jan 07, 2008, 09:37 AM »

I do think John Twist EXPECTED Ennis to fight him on this -- John Twisted seemed to have been somewhat disapoointed, since he felt the need to reiterate that the ashes stay in LF close to the end of the visit. It was as if he resented the connection made between Ennis and Mrs. Twist, and wanted to remind Ennis that he had lost what he would have values the most -- i.e., Jack's ashes -- in spite of Ennis getting the shirts...

myprivatejack · « **Reply #537 on:** Jan 10, 2008, 05:24 AM »

Coming back to the colours topic,I wonder if seeing Ennis wearing lighter colours,specially blue,means a way to have Jack with him.I mean,if it's a way to remember him,and mainly still,TO BE Jack when he's away.We all know that Ennis is little keen on fantasies and almost unfeasible projects- a Jack's characteristic-and that this is reflected in his clothings,always in clear and related with Earth colours.Well then,if Ennis wears a Jack's colour-like blue-expressing a lively,dreamer,rebel way of being,we can find that Ennis only allow himself some kind of fantasies-it´s to say,an approach to Jack's personality-when he's alone,when nobody sees him or listen to him,neither Jack,of course.In these moments,he can allow himself to dream in the "sweet life together",and also wishing it and thinking Jack was right in defying society's rules.But coming back to reality-in his case,crashing against reality-he must behave himself according to these rules and keep on being "Ennis,the stubborn realistic".It's a kind of adopting the lover's way of being because,at the end,both of them was different sides of the same coin.I don't know, as always,if I'm explaining myself well and this makes sense...

aintfoolin · « **Reply #538 on:** Jan 10, 2008, 07:12 AM »

Quote from: myprivatejack on Jan 10, 2008, 05:24 AM

Coming back to the colours topic,I wonder if seeing Ennis wearing lighter colours,specially blue,means a way to have Jack with him.I mean,if it's a way to remember him,and mainly still,TO BE Jack when he's away.We all know that Ennis is little keen on fantasies and almost unfeasible projects- a Jack's characteristic-and that this is reflected in his clothings,always in clear and related with Earth colours.Well then,if Ennis wears a Jack's colour-like blue-expressing a lively,dreamer,rebel way of being,we can find that Ennis only allow himself some kind of fantasies-it´s to say,an approach to Jack's personality-when he's alone,when nobody sees him or listen to him,neither Jack,of course.In these moments,he can allow himself to dream in the "sweet life together",and also wishing it and thinking Jack was right in defying society's rules.But coming back to reality-in his case,crashing against reality-he must behave himself according to these rules and keep on being "Ennis,the stubborn realistic".It's a kind of adopting the lover's way of being because,at the end,both of them was different sides of the same coin.I don't know, as always,if I'm explaining myself well and this makes sense...

MPJ, This is so interesting that you point this out. Ennis's wearing of blue may very well be his way of "channeling" Jack if you will, when they are apart. Perhaps it is a code that keeps Jack with him at all times. He even ended up with a blue and white truck in the end. Perhaps it is his way of mostly identifying Jack in that blue shirt when he first laid eyes on him. It's possible that Jack's clothes stood out for Ennis as a reminder of him in perhaps a sub-concious way. We KNOW Jack loved blue. A blue tent?,insistance on finding the the blue parka etc....certainly Ennis could lose himself in fantasys about Jack and "live" them out whenever Jack was away. I don't doubt it.

tpe · « **Reply #539 on:** Jan 10, 2008, 09:18 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jan 10, 2008, 07:12 AM

MPJ, This is so interesting that you point this out. Ennis's wearing of blue may very well be his way of "channeling" Jack if you will, when they are apart. Perhaps it is a code that keeps Jack with him at all times. He even ended up with a blue and white truck in the end. Perhaps it is his way of mostly identifying Jack in that blue shirt when he first laid eyes on him. It's possible that Jack's clothes stood out for Ennis as a reminder of him in perhaps a sub-concious way. We KNOW Jack loved blue. A blue tent?,insistance on finding the the blue parka etc....certainly Ennis could lose himself in fantasys about Jack and "live" them out whenever Jack was away. I don't doubt it.

Thanks MPJ and aintfoolin. Yes, this is how I understood this when I first saw the topic about colors posted here.

I love the word "channeling". It captures the idea quite beautifully.

I don't know whether we are reading too much here, but I certainly feel that the rarker colors, the blues and the purples, somehow point back to Jack. Which is why I think this idea resonates with me, as it clearly did with both of you.

Author Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines (Read 414560 times)

manhattangirl