Topic: Do you think that Jack was gay? Or straight, but in love? - possible spoiler

[ethan]

I even suspect that both Ledger and Gyllenhaal acted beautifully because they just tried to be themselves, even if they tried to project a strong on-screen love for each other that is not common among (I assume) non-gay/bisexual actors attempting gay/bisexual roles.

The more both Ledger and Gyllenhaal tried not to 'act' a gay identity, the more they struck me as thoroughly convincing.  This is just my opinion...

tpe, this is my take as well. To address the question whether Jake and Heath should act gay, one needs to look at the characters. It could well be that in Jack and Ennis's mind - the term "gay" doesn't exist (as much as they were attracted to each other). If I may call it - straight acting

Were Jake and Heath told that Ennis and Jack were both gay and they should act gay delibrately? I hope not. Even if so, how could they act "gay"? If you could have a chance to ask Ennis and Jack after 20 years about their sexual orientation, they probably would still deny they were gay.

[tpe]

tpe, this is my take as well. To address the question whether Jake and Heath should act gay, one needs to look at the characters. It could well be that in Jack and Ennis's mind - the term "gay" doesn't exist (as much as they were attracted to each other). If I may call it - straight acting

Were Jake and Heath told that Ennis and Jack were both gay and they should act gay delibrately? I hope not. Even if so, how could they act "gay"? If you could have a chance to ask Ennis and Jack after 20 years about their sexual orientation, they probably would still deny they were gay.

ethan, yes, I agree that the characters of Ennis and Jack were essentially 'straight acting'.  If Jack were to be considered less straight, it is only because he was more emotive and sensitive than Ennis.  Ennis certainly kept everything inside of him.  He is in the classic mold of the strong, silent, stoic masculine cowboy of popular imagination -- but with a TWIST, if you excuse the pun.  Ennis and Jack certainly did not think of themselves as gay, in my opinion.

[monicita]

There is one point that hasn't been touched yet: Jake G. has the more "dangerous" part in the movie for an actor who wants to go on being a "straight" leading man in Hollywood. In the first scene in the tent Jack is the "bottom" (hateful word, I know, but that is how it will be seen), he is the instigator of most of the sex we see, the one who is interested in other relationships with men (Mexico, Randall), the one who shows his feelings etc. Jack has even been called a "sexual predator" in one ill-fated review.

The point I am trying to make is that Jake G. is probably a bit scared about his image and maybe even a bit unsure about everything after the whole Brokeback experience. I read one very nice interview where he says he hasn't had sex with a man yet, but would be open to it. What more can you expect. Most straight men would rather be seen dead than kissing another man...

monicita

[tpe]

There is one point that hasn't been touched yet: Jake G. has the more "dangerous" part in the movie for an actor who wants to go on being a "straight" leading man in Hollywood. In the first scene in the tent Jack is the "bottom" (hateful word, I know, but that is how it will be seen), he is the instigator of most of the sex we see, the one who is interested in other relationships with men (Mexico, Randall), the one who shows his feelings etc. Jack has even been called a "sexual predator" in one ill-fated review.

The point I am trying to make is that Jake G. is probably a bit scared about his image and maybe even a bit unsure about everything after the whole Brokeback experience. I read one very nice interview where he says he hasn't had sex with a man yet, but would be open to it. What more can you expect. Most straight men would rather be seen dead than kissing another man...

monicita

monicita, it does disappoint me that many critics continue to be silent (by and large) on Gyllenhaal's beautiful performance in the film.  As a perfect example, the critics of the NY Times just put out their selections for who should be nominated for the Oscars.  Gyllenhaaal is absent from all the lists.

I have read somewhere that the reason for this is that both Ledger and Gyllenhaal are BOTH considered as LEAD ACTORS by all the critics associations.  I would have thought that Ledger had the leading role, and Gyllenhaal had the supporting actor role.  But it seems that this assignment is not accepted by many critics.  So, choosing between Ledger and Gyllenhaal, they invariably ignore Gyllenhaal in favor of Ledger.  I think this is not a fair treatment, since the story makes clear from the start that Ennis is the main protagonist here.  If the feeling is that BOTH Ennis and Jack were main protaginists in the movie, it is because of Gyllenhaal's imaginative interpretation to expand the role of Jack Twist in contradistinction to the original story.

Yes, I loved it when he said that he was open to love in all its forms, if it so moved him (my phrasing here.)  In real life, Gyllenhaal strikes me as a pretty sophisticated 25/26 year-old.  He certainly seems more mature, world-wise, and talented than, say, Tom Cruise!

[ethan]

There is one point that hasn't been touched yet: Jake G. has the more "dangerous" part in the movie for an actor who wants to go on being a "straight" leading man in Hollywood. In the first scene in the tent Jack is the "bottom" (hateful word, I know, but that is how it will be seen), he is the instigator of most of the sex we see, the one who is interested in other relationships with men (Mexico, Randall), the one who shows his feelings etc. Jack has even been called a "sexual predator" in one ill-fated review.

The point I am trying to make is that Jake G. is probably a bit scared about his image and maybe even a bit unsure about everything after the whole Brokeback experience. I read one very nice interview where he says he hasn't had sex with a man yet, but would be open to it. What more can you expect. Most straight men would rather be seen dead than kissing another man...

monicita

Good point, monicita. Although it seems to be this way in the movie, I am not sure if his role in the movie would really affect his image. You see - now I am one of his biggest fans had he not delivered such effective performance as Jack. It is definitely not because he plays a "gay" character.; And I am sure many would agree. I can certainly relate to his hesitation of taking the *risk.* As far as I am concerned, he has made the right decision.

monicita, it does continue to disappoint me that many critics continue to be silent (by and large) on Gyllenhaal's beautiful performance in the film.  As a perfect example, the critics of the NY Times just put out their selections for who should be nominated for the Oscars.  Gyllenhaaal is absent from all the lists.

I have read somewhere that the reason for this is that both Ledger and Gyllenhaal are BOTH considered as LEAD ACTORS by all the critics associations.  I would have thought that Ledger had the leading role, and Gyllenhaal had the supporting actor role.  But it seems that this assignment is not accepted by many critics.  So, choosing between Ledger and Gyllenhaal, they invariably ignore Gyllenhaal in favor of Ledger.  I think this is not a fair treatment, since the story makes clear from the start that Ennis is the main protagonist here.  If the feeling is that BOTH Ennis and Jack were main protaginists in the movie, it is because of Gyllenhaal's imaginative interpretation to expand the role of Jack Twist in contradistinction to the original story.

Yes, I loved it when he said that he was open to love in all its forms, if it so moved him (my phrasing here.)  In real life, Gyllenhaal strikes me as a pretty sophisticated 25/26 year-old.  He certainly seems more mature, world-wise, and talented than, say, Tom Cruise!

tpe, I share your disappointment. During my 5th viewing yesterday, I paid attention to Jack and really appreciated his performance. It effectively contrasts Ennis so well. Without him (Jake), there would be no Ennis. I do hope that Jake will get nominated for the Oscar.

[stickler]

Another point to add is that I suspect that there is a little homophobia in almost everybody ... gay men included.  It takes a lot to break away from the norm and has far reaching psychological impacts.  As a gay guy I feel I'm pretty clued up about things but this has only been in the last couple of years (I'm 21) and I've had my whole life to process those emotions ...

[paradigm69]

The point I am trying to make is that Jake G. is probably a bit scared about his image and maybe even a bit unsure about everything after the whole Brokeback experience. I read one very nice interview where he says he hasn't had sex with a man yet, but would be open to it. What more can you expect. Most straight men would rather be seen dead than kissing another man...

monicita

Yea, thanks Moncita this makes alot of sense.  I mean, poor guy really, just imagine the comments that he has had to defend himself against.  Ok Jakie G, you're in my good books again.  The guy is a total HOTTIE.  And if he really is open to a relationship with a man, I AM FIRST IN LINE !! 

haha  :-)

[coguaro]

I'm not obviously sure but I think that Jack an Ennis are homosexuals. They live in a conservative and rural area of US in the '60; in this space-time conditions it could be very difficult to realize and admit to be homosexual. The particular situation such their hermit encounter and above all the intensity of their spontaneous and natural love could unblocked their heart. And also in these condition they had difficult to express each other their feelings  because  something of new and incomparable was realizing  (Ennis particularly use more body, actions and silence to communicate with Jack then words).

Coguaro

[rabjr1]

I think that Jack was gay and over the years come to know and accept this term.  Ennis?  My take on Ennis is this: I think all of us are capable of finding someone of the same sex that because of a "force of nature" we are emotionally and sexually attracted to - fall in love. We have an exlusive "homosexual" relationship with this one person and no one else.  Monogamy? While still heterosexual.

[jimnick]

Yea, thanks Moncita this makes alot of sense.  I mean, poor guy really, just imagine the comments that he has had to defend himself against.  Ok Jakie G, you're in my good books again.  The guy is a total HOTTIE.  And if he really is open to a relationship with a man, I AM FIRST IN LINE !! 

haha  :-)

Dream on!!  You want to talk about a b***h slapping, just try to cut in front of me!!!

Uh uh

Jim

[greenfrog]

I posted this on the Internet Movie Database message board for BBM. So I don't have to retype it ... here you go. 


After reading the story and many reviews of the movie, I devised my own theory about the sexuality of Jack and Ennis. Note: I haven't seen the movie yet, but there may be some spoilers in this. So... you were warned.


I think that both Jack and Ennis are bi-sexual however in the end they are very different sexuality wise. First of all, Ennis.

Ennis Del Mar

When we begin in 1963 I think that Ennis was more straight then bi-sexual. I doubt he would have ever considered being in a relationship with a man. Then along came Jack. Throughout the movie (or book) you can really tell that Ennis loves Jack so much but he is deeply in denile about his feelings for him. Ennis being Ennis (I could go into why he is the way he is but I would get writers cramp) I suppose. As time goes by he has trouble keeping a stable relationship with women. He divorces Alma and can't commit to Cassie. He only wants Jack but can't accept it completly. By the end of the film he seems to have come out of his *denial and understands his complete love for Jack (little late though). However, I doubt that he would ever be with another man.

My final thought: Ennis - Bi-sexual but leans more towards straight.

*DENIAL

Location: Here, there, basically anywhere
Population: You
When to visit: I hear it's good this time of year.

Jack Twist

When the movie begin, Jack seems to be definately bi-sexual. People (on the message boards) have given the impression that he had been with a man before, but at this current time, he doesn't seem to be leaning either way. Over the twenty year span (whew) that we see Jack ...... oh hell to this, I'm going for dot point.

- Marries Lureen (marriage of convienience or just married because it's the norm)?
- After 4 years meets up with Ennis.
- Constantly tries to get Ennis to live with him. Also trys to express to Ennis how much he loves him.
- Goes to Mexico ( we all know what happens there)
- Gives up on Ennis and comes onto Randall.
- Tells his parent he plan to bring a man (Randy boy) to the ranch to work with him... or something like that.
- Mystery death? (Bring on CSI)

So after all that, my final thought.

Jack - Bi-sexual but in the end he leans more towards being gay.

THERE!!

[jakeofrome]

Well my opinion is that we basically have some sort of problems with labels.
Ennis and Jack fall in love one with another (in a different way, in different moments, but that doesn't make a big difference).
Also, Ennis and Jack have sex - if you have to label it you can't call it anything else but homosexual sex.

But there's more. Meaning that the two of them, no matter how much we love them, are actually only fictional characters of the short story (first) and of the movie (then). This means to me that we can either ask Annie Proulx how did she envision the guys, or just speculate.
There are two many unsaid things you can only guess about that would make a big difference in order to figure out if Jack and Ennis are gay, bisexual, or whatever.
We basically don't know anything about their experience of sex to each other except the description of the first night and the reunion four years later. Don't want to sound gross but the way Ennis and Jack would keep having sex through the years would make quite a difference if we really have to assign a label to each of them.

There's one thing I found interesting in the short story (for Ennis) and in the movie (for Jack). The way Ennis has sex with Alma and the way Jack reacts to Lureen's sexual offer in the car aren't exactly the ones I would expect from a straight guy.
But again, we will end going on for stereotypes here.
There are only three things I am sure about: Ennis and Jack are in love, they have sex, and they are victims of homophobia (on many different levels).

[ethan]

Well my opinion is that we basically have some sort of problems with labels.
Ennis and Jack fall in love one with another (in a different way, in different moments, but that doesn't make a big difference).
Also, Ennis and Jack have sex - if you have to label it you can't call it anything else but homosexual sex.

But there's more. Meaning that the two of them, no matter how much we love them, are actually only fictional characters of the short story (first) and of the movie (then). This means to me that we can either ask Annie Proulx how did she envision the guys, or just speculate.
There are two many unsaid things you can only guess about that would make a big difference in order to figure out if Jack and Ennis are gay, bisexual, or whatever.
We basically don't know anything about their experience of sex to each other except the description of the first night and the reunion four years later. Don't want to sound gross but the way Ennis and Jack would keep having sex through the years would make quite a difference if we really have to assign a label to each of them.

Labels are a convenient way of evaluation. They are short cuts for comprehension. Unfortunately, sometimes they can lead to a different conclusion. You are right that we can only tell from what we read from the story and what we see from the movie. I remember from one interview with Ang Lee, he did say in his mind that both Jack and Ennis are gay (if we really want to conviniently label them)

There's one thing I found interesting in the short story (for Ennis) and in the movie (for Jack). The way Ennis has sex with Alma and the way Jack reacts to Lureen's sexual offer in the car aren't exactly the ones I would expect from a straight guy.

Interesting observation. I, being gay, not sure what a *straight* guy would do in those situations. But that is another topic.

There are only three things I am sure about: Ennis and Jack are in love, they have sex, and they are victims of homophobia (on many different levels).

You nailed them and I am with you on these three things. 

[stickler]

I agree with the labels thing ... its saft when you think about it.

Personally I think of sexuality as of being on a spectrum. I reckon that I'm kinda 97% woofter ... I cant rule out that I'll never find a woman attractive but I think it very unlikely.

From what I picked up from the film I reckon that both Jack and Ennis are fully fledged homosexuals too.  I suspect that were they to be born into a world without predjudice they would have followed a gayer way of life :-s.  Their love for their wives and families was the love you have for close relations and friends rather than lovers in my eyes.  This is not to say that they couldn't have found some women that they would have found 'lover-able' but I saw no evidence to suggest this in the film.

[rabjr1]

Remember Roy Cohn?  If not rent "Angels In America".  He dies of AIDS and yet never, never said he was gay.  He said that he had sex with men but that he wasn' t gay.

By the way, Roy Cohn was one of the most despicable persons to have ever walked the earth and that is a general consensus.

[coguaro]

I think that the fact of to not be able to give a sexual label to Jack and Ennis is central to the story. Considering both Ennis and Jack as neutral person in fact our attention is centered on their love and we could see that love as the fundamental actor.

baci
coguaro

[rabjr1]

All I would ask is "So Jack, how do you like your eggs in the morning?"

[stickler]

With rice or chips?

[*Froggy*]

All I would ask is "So Jack, how do you like your eggs in the morning?"

Good one!

I can't even answer the original question, coz I don't know...nor care...to me they are in love...oh geez I think I just answered it!!!

[Mabon]

I think they both were gay -- it seems obvious to me after seeing the movie and comparing it to the short story. 

They tried not to be, and they even (especially Ennis) tried to deny their sexual orientation to themselves based on fear and the culture they were raised in.  Ennis is even so rejecting of his sexuality that in the heat of an argument he blames it on Jack, ("it's because of you I'm like this...").

I believe that they both were like that because they're gay, and the marriages, etc. happened in their attempts to suppress and deny it.

I think that's one of the points of the story -- how homophobia affects the individuals involved and how it sort of reverberates out and causes so much pain to so many people.  The underlying theme in the whole story and movie is homophobia.  Both the gay person's homophobia and the cultures homophobia and how it is destructive.

It seems clear to me that both men were gay, unexpectedly fell in love, yet they were trying to fit into the social norms of the time.  It was their survival instinct to hide, deny and even reject their own feelings.  Ennis was not only emotionally constipated but he had a deep fear for his life if he did anything of a homosexual nature.  He even says so in the book when they're in the hotel room after their initial 4 year separation, "if his dad looked in the door right now he'd go get the tire iron..." (or something to that effect -- I don't have the book in front of me)  And that's why he doesn't buy a ranch and move in with Jack, he says that, too, during their first summer on the mountain and at least one more time after that.  I think their bisexual behavior was just that, behavior to keep the mask up and fit into the society that they were in.  Straight men don't fall in love with other men, and they certainly don't carry on a 20 year affair with another man.  That's what makes 'em straight!

After seeing the movie and reading the short story several times (I highly recommend both), it seems to me that there is no question that both were gay.  That's the tragedy of living in a homophobic society and what leads to the tragedy of their situation.  If they were who they were they would be ostracized and killed, and yet when all is said and done, they couldn't help being who they were.  Subsequently one is killed and the other lives out the rest of his life emotionally shut down, closeted and alone.  (The last line of the short story makes that clear.) :'(

I think this story and movie have the potential to do more to promote compassion, acceptance and understanding than anything else has done in a very long time.

[chameau]

I think they both were gay -- it seems obvious to me after seeing the movie and comparing it to the short story. 

They tried not to be, and they even (especially Ennis) tried to deny their sexual orientation to themselves based on fear and the culture they were raised in.  Ennis is even so rejecting of his sexuality that in the heat of an argument he blames it on Jack, ("it's because of you I'm like this...").

I believe that they both were like that because they're gay, and the marriages, etc. happened in their attempts to suppress and deny it.

I think that's one of the points of the story -- how homophobia affects the individuals involved and how it sort of reverberates out and causes so much pain to so many people.  The underlying theme in the whole story and movie is homophobia.  Both the gay person's homophobia and the cultures homophobia and how it is destructive.

It seems clear to me that both men were gay, unexpectedly fell in love, yet they were trying to fit into the social norms of the time.  It was their survival instinct to hide, deny and even reject their own feelings.  Ennis was not only emotionally constipated but he had a deep fear for his life if he did anything of a homosexual nature.  He even says so in the book when they're in the hotel room after their initial 4 year separation, "if his dad looked in the door right now he'd go get the tire iron..." (or something to that effect -- I don't have the book in front of me)  And that's why he doesn't buy a ranch and move in with Jack, he says that, too, during their first summer on the mountain and at least one more time after that.  I think their bisexual behavior was just that, behavior to keep the mask up and fit into the society that they were in.  Straight men don't fall in love with other men, and they certainly don't carry on a 20 year affair with another man.  That's what makes 'em straight!

After seeing the movie and reading the short story several times (I highly recommend both), it seems to me that there is no question that both were gay.  That's the tragedy of living in a homophobic society and what leads to the tragedy of their situation.  If they were who they were they would be ostracized and killed, and yet when all is said and done, they couldn't help being who they were.  Subsequently one is killed and the other lives out the rest of his life emotionally shut down, closeted and alone.  (The last line of the short story makes that clear.) :'(

I think this story and movie have the potential to do more to promote compassion, acceptance and understanding than anything else has done in a very long time.

Thanks for posting this Mabon!

Wow!

I think this story and movie have the potential to do more to promote compassion, acceptance and understanding than anything else has done in a very long time.

Ditto!

Big hugs from the chameau

[Mabon]

Big hugs from the chameau

Big hugs back and thanks, Chameau -- I'm new here so I appreciate the encouragement!

[chameau]

Big hugs from the chameau

Big hugs back and thanks, Chameau -- I'm new here so I appreciate the encouragement!

Good work Mabon, keep going! 

[bbmlover]

I have this scene in my mind....... wanted to share with you guys.

When Jack and Ennis have their 1st breakfast:

Then Jack says about his favourite breakfast recipe.
But Ennis says he is saving for his life with Alma after getting down from mountain.

Quickly.......Jack just ignores it. (wow.......he does it so well)
And says "no fire no bullshit......" etc.

Jack so badly want to be with Ennis - right from 1st night.....

Jack says it all - i guess from the 1st scene: starting from "Shi...iiit" & then the look. phoo...

[dr bill]

In my personal opinion regarding the labels of gay, bi, or straight:  Securely be who are, no matter what others say about you.  Labels are not intended as rules for us to follow.  They are merely words used to categorize and really in my book there is a lack of depth in these categorizations.  I don't tell others how they should feel or be in any venture in life.  I do the same with sexuality.  It just is.  What I would rather look at is the larger picture of all that a person is and sexuality is only one part of who a person is. 

Its amazing how people can get all bent out of shape over the color of another's skin, sexual partners or how much money one has (or doesn't have) in their bank account?

[CherryCake]

Call him what you want... Jack like the company of men. He took a liking to Ennis at the start. He was experienced and he made little comments to Ennis.  By today's standards, Jack was gay.  Ennis was probably open and liked Jack and wanted to experience the sex. 
But they fell in love, no doubt.

[dr bill]

But they fell in love, no doubt.

That is the whole point in my opinion not any labels...love exists outside of any labels.

[cybernaut]

Well, Jack hit the Jackpot with Ennis! :D

Do you think that Jack is a predator as well?

[CherryCake]

Well, Jack hit the Jackpot with Ennis! :D

Do you think that Jack is a predator as well?

Ya know... I heard that Gene Shalit call Jack a predator as well.  That was idiotic thing for Gene to call him  Jack is gay.  He was attracted to Ennis right from the start.  He sublety 'felt' him out.  Yes. he was more of the aggressor but does that make him a predator?  If so, then all the romantic leads, from Jack in The Titantic to  Rhett Butler from Gone With The Wind, and 99 per cent of the other straight men should be called predators.  We won't even mention Casssonova!  Is Jack a predator? No. He shows interest in someone because he is sexually attracted.

[Cowboy Cody]

MAH GAWD! All you have to do is look at Gene Shalit then ask yourself, Who's on crack now?

Jack's character was a man who found himself attracted to other men, but confined by society to a certain straight life. When I read the book, my immediate thought was...Yup, Jack likes men, always has. My gaydar went off like the foghorn on the Queen Mary.