Topic: motel room scene

[welshwitch]

Practically no Lashawn would be fine too. I'd rather have more of scenes like this, which is almost more powerful in the ss, simply because it's all about nothing ( and everything) happening.

[dalemidex]

Oh yes hpv, I love this quote! I wish Ang kept the motel scene more close to the original and included this line... he could've cut on other scenes! (less Cassie or less LaShawn would be fine by me...)

From an interview I heard or read someplace I think Annie Proulx initially was very concerned that the motel scene was pared down too much.  But a lot of the guts of the motel scene (I don't have the book with me to see specifics) were moved to different, later points in the movie.  And ultimately Ms Proulx said (essentially) it worked out better this way for the movie.  I tend to agree.  The short story necessarily has to (a) be much more compact and (b) reply on dialog.  When I think about how the move flowed in general -- the pacing of it, how the characters spoke, and how of the story was "told" to us in words versus "revealed" to us in other ways,  I think that the motel scene couldn't have remained intact.  Too much.  Too soon.  Too wordy and too upfront.  At least compared to how the rest of the story played out. 

There are things in the short story motel segment, including some lines, that I'd very much like to have heard.  But I'm just not sure it would have worked quite right if they had left it as is.  And if I recall correctly.  Ms Proulx ultimately agreed.

[tpe]

Oh yes hpv, I love this quote! I wish Ang kept the motel scene more close to the original and included this line... he could've cut on other scenes! (less Cassie or less LaShawn would be fine by me...)

From an interview I heard or read someplace I think Annie Proulx initially was very concerned that the motel scene was pared down too much.  But a lot of the guts of the motel scene (I don't have the book with me to see specifics) were moved to different, later points in the movie.  And ultimately Ms Proulx said (essentially) it worked out better this way for the movie.  I tend to agree.  The short story necessarily has to (a) be much more compact and (b) reply on dialog.  When I think about how the move flowed in general -- the pacing of it, how the characters spoke, and how of the story was "told" to us in words versus "revealed" to us in other ways,  I think that the motel scene couldn't have remained intact.  Too much.  Too soon.  Too wordy and too upfront.  At least compared to how the rest of the story played out. 

There are things in the short story motel segment, including some lines, that I'd very much like to have heard.  But I'm just not sure it would have worked quite right if they had left it as is.  And if I recall correctly.  Ms Proulx ultimately agreed.

I do like the way they moved some of the crucial aspects into the night scene up on Brokeback.  Had the screenwriters followed the ss to the letter, we would have been deprived of the "anything up there in heaven..." scene.  That would have been a great loss.  And the story of Earl and Rich works so well in this later scene.  Light and shadows...

[edgar]

A short story and a movie are two different genres. What works in one does not work so well in the other. If we wanted to remain complete purists, we could have said, "No, don't make the movie. It would ruin the beautiful short story." ( *o)This is what is preventing us from seeing JG as Holden Caufield--Salinger won't let anyone make a movie of _Catcher in the Rye_).

The short story is beautiful, perfect, spare, and cutting.

The movie is beautiful, enchanting, allusive, and devastating.

I'm very thankful we have both.

[tpe]

A short story and a movie are two different genres. What works in one does not work so well in the other. If we wanted to remain complete purists, we could have said, "No, don't make the movie. It would ruin the beautiful short story." ( *o)This is what is preventing us from seeing JG as Holden Caufield--Salinger won't let anyone make a movie of _Catcher in the Rye_).

The short story is beautiful, perfect, spare, and cutting.

The movie is beautiful, enchanting, allusive, and devastating.

I'm very thankful we have both.

This is a good discussion, as the motel scene is the best example of how the movie and short story deviate from each other, and yet attain the same goal: to move us, and to touch us.

[hpv]

As though once the actual sex is over, they've moved to a new plane of intimacy - there are so many things that, when you do them with or in the company of someone you love, feel closer than sex can bring you. This sequence is, like the dozy embrace, one of those transcendent moments.

Am I being hyper-imaginative here, but you can almost SMELL them in this scene.  It is quite visceral.  But it indeed has a transcendent power.

I'd like to quote from A.P. short story:

"The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit and cheap soap. Ennis lay spread-eagled, spent and wet, breathing deep, still half tumescent, Jack blowing forceful cigarette clouds like whale spouts, and Jack said, "Christ, it got a be all that time a yours ahorseback makes it so goddamn good.  "

Sigh.... I rest my case..

BTW. I do miss the underlined quote

Well ,I brought this specific quote to emphasize A.P. exquisite  description  of the atmosphere in the motel room especially the SMELL...of course that the story is not the movie..both are perfect  IMHO..

[edgar]

As though once the actual sex is over, they've moved to a new plane of intimacy - there are so many things that, when you do them with or in the company of someone you love, feel closer than sex can bring you. This sequence is, like the dozy embrace, one of those transcendent moments.

Am I being hyper-imaginative here, but you can almost SMELL them in this scene.  It is quite visceral.  But it indeed has a transcendent power.

I'd like to quote from A.P. short story:

"The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit and cheap soap. Ennis lay spread-eagled, spent and wet, breathing deep, still half tumescent, Jack blowing forceful cigarette clouds like whale spouts, and Jack said, "Christ, it got a be all that time a yours ahorseback makes it so goddamn good.  "

Sigh.... I rest my case..

BTW. I do miss the underlined quote

Well ,I brought this specific quote to emphasize A.P. exquisite  description  of the atmosphere in the motel room especially the SMELL...of course that the story is not the movie..both are perfect  IMHO..

Yes, the smells of different things are emphasized in the short story... part of what makes it so affecting.

The smells of the motel room are not emphasized, though it does seem Jack smells Ennis's hair....

But other times in the movie, smells are very much emphasized. Ennis especially smells his own shirt, smells Jack's bloody shirt, smells Jr's jumper.... Very nice touch.

[hpv]

  Edgar

[tpe]

Edgar

And thanks also hpv . 

[shieldmaid]

In addition to the smells implied by this scene , I really love the fact that they're rediscovering the feel of one another's bodies.  I know that's been said in many ways before--but their relationship is so intensely tactile.  Ennis can never tell Jack straight out how he feels--he has to show him, and in no better way than here, stroking his arm (unless it's the reunion kiss . . . ). 

[Raisa]

Their love dominates everything -- even the sex.  You see them physically content -- but definitely wanting more on a deeper level.

I never thought of using the word "virginal" before, tpe, but I think it works perfectly here.  After all, this is the first time they've been together in 4 years, and although they've both got wives, it's pretty clear they've been thinking of each other throughout those relationships.  They are rediscovering the landscapes of one another's bodies and minds . . . coming back to the place where they worship again.

They are rediscovering the landscapes of one another's bodies and minds . . . coming back to the place where they worship again.

So wonderfully said.  It is a rediscovery.  What was lost has been found.

Reading this thread fills me with joy. It is so beautiful and your notices so true and illuminative.

[Raisa]

I think you're so right, tpe--one of the reasons this scene is so powerful is that you see them using so many of their own senses.  Jack smells Ennis's hair, Ennis strokes Jack's arm, they listen intently to one another's words--and I'm sure they're still tasting each other after the intensely physical experience they've just had.    Significantly, the one sense that isn't used as much here is sight, as everyone's been discussing.  They are communicating with their other senses this time.

And yes, can we smell it ourselves?  I think so--remember the short story: "The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit, and cheap soap."

One thing that moves me is that the scent of a lover remains after he is long gone -- even on one's own person. 

I do not mean to offend those of us who are fastidious in their tastes, but the way they kissed, the way they embraced, one cannot help but getting drunk on the physcial presence of the beloved.  Even as the room smelled of terrible things, it is surely the scent of each other that overpowers them, inebriates them -- like incense, like choice perfume.

Smells belong to life. I liked both in the movie and Annie Proulx´s story that they were so real, true, not sanitized.

[tpe]

THanks Carmilla.  I love your comment about smell being a part of life.  And certainly the story is not sanitized.   There is enough hint of this in the movie.  There is enough suggestive power...

[edgar]

Meant to say this yesterday. The sense of smell is closely linked in the brain to both emotion and memory.

I'm sure many of us have had the experience of walking into, say our parents's house, after a long time away and smelling a familiar smell which sends a pang to the center of the heart.

A familiar perfume....     The aroma of a certain dish being cooked....     The scent of new-mown hay.....   The boquet of a certain wine....   

All these things instantly transport me to previous scenes in my life.


And, btw, venturing ever closer to the edge of the  precipice, D. H. Lawrence has a great short story, "The Odor of Chrysanthemums" in which that titular "odor" (and anyone who knows chrysanthemums knows that's the right word) accompanies a woman through all the important phases of her life.

[tpe]

Meant to say this yesterday. The sense of smell is closely linked in the brain to both emotion and memory.

I'm sure many of us have had the experience of walking in, say our parents's house, after a long time away and smelling a familiar smell which sends a pang to the center of the heart.

A familiar perfume....     The aroma of a certain dish being cooked....     The scent of new-mown hay.....   The boquet of a certain wine....   

All these things instantly transport me to previous scenes in my life.

And the olfactory sense has a more primitive power.  Animals certainly rely on this more than humans.  With humans, it is weakened, submerged.  It peeps out only in the deepest of human needs and emotions.  It harks back to the bedrock of what makes us living creatures.

[welshwitch]

In a minute someone's going to refer to Proust, so I'll do it.

[tpe]

In a minute someone's going to refer to Proust, so I'll do it.

When nothing else subsists from the past, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered· the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls· bearing resiliently, on tiny and almost impalpable drops of their essence, the immense edifice of memory...


(Marcel Proust -- English Trans. Moncrieff)

[shieldmaid]

When nothing else subsists from the past, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered· the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls· bearing resiliently, on tiny and almost impalpable drops of their essence, the immense edifice of memory...


(Marcel Proust -- English Trans. Moncrieff)

Gorgeous, tpe--thanks.  (I *knew* there was a reason why I should get Remembrance of Things Past off my shelf and actually read it!)

[tpe]

When nothing else subsists from the past, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered· the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls· bearing resiliently, on tiny and almost impalpable drops of their essence, the immense edifice of memory...


(Marcel Proust -- English Trans. Moncrieff)

Gorgeous, tpe--thanks.  (I *knew* there was a reason why I should get Remembrance of Things Past off my shelf and actually read it!)

You're welcome shieldmaid.  This whole discussion about sensory perception in the motel scene is indeed very Proustian.  Another suberb Proustian moment is the scene where Ennis discovers the shirts.  The short story again dwells on the golden moment of memory.  It is unimaginably moving.

 

[shieldmaid]

When nothing else subsists from the past, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered· the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls· bearing resiliently, on tiny and almost impalpable drops of their essence, the immense edifice of memory...


(Marcel Proust -- English Trans. Moncrieff)

Gorgeous, tpe--thanks.  (I *knew* there was a reason why I should get Remembrance of Things Past off my shelf and actually read it!)

You're welcome shieldmaid.  This whole discussion about sensory perception in the motel scene is indeed very Proustian.  Another suberb Proustian moment is the scene where Ennis discovers the shirts.  The short story again dwells on the golden moment of memory.  It is unimaginably moving.

 

I have long believed that Proulx deserved a place among the writers that modern civilization chooses most to honor.  If you've never read The Shipping News, her first book (winner of both the Pulitzer and the National Book Award), I highly recommend it.

Sorry, OT--how about this to get us started again?  One of the things I most love about this scene--let me just be honest here--is the simple fact that they're both shirtless.  I think it's the only time, other than SNIT, when we see them really revelling in the feel of each other's skin.  They hardly ever get to enjoy it--but here they do.  And Ang Lee's decision to let us see just a little--"only so far, and nothing more"--proves far more sensual and tantalizing than the full monty could have. 

[CherryCake]

When Ennis says "I doubt there's nothing we can do" you can see him deliberately closing the door to the future, shutting his love for and need of Jack away, and setting the tone for much of the rest of his life, and you want to scream at him not to do it.

He is tryinmg to shore up the status quo here.  It is not that he does not love Jack.  He is afraid of losing him again.  He is afraid of losing what little they have...

Love is expressed in the strangest of ways...

I'm going to have to disagree with both of you on this scene and Ennis's reaction.  While we know Ennis really cares for and is obviously attracted to Jack, and vice vera, we need to remember, these two are uneducated and unworldly invidivuals here.  That is not meant as a critism of intellectual capabilities, but rather, to appreciate that Ennis has never been in a situation he finds himself in with a male lover..  Deliberately closing the door to thier future somewhat implies that Ennis knows  he and Jack are capable of a future together as a  couple.  He doesn't.   1963 west sociey dictated he get married to a woman.  Ennis 'doubts' theres nothing he can do about it because he doesnt know WHAT he can do.  We can speculate what Ennis would do were there  not the societal restriction circa 1963 toward same sex coulping, but it's clear that Ennis is at a loss to cope with his feelings and attractions towards Jack.  Ennis does want to keep Jack in his life somehow and increasingly becomes frustrated by the limitations on thier relationship.  Where Jack is more able to bitch about something he is unhappy with and discuss somewhat--god bless him!--Ennis usually resorts to violence.   

[Patriot1]

When Ennis says "I doubt there's nothing we can do" you can see him deliberately closing the door to the future, shutting his love for and need of Jack away, and setting the tone for much of the rest of his life, and you want to scream at him not to do it.

He is tryinmg to shore up the status quo here.  It is not that he does not love Jack.  He is afraid of losing him again.  He is afraid of losing what little they have...

Love is expressed in the strangest of ways...

I'm going to have to disagree with both of you on this scene and Ennis's reaction.  While we know Ennis really cares for and is obviously attracted to Jack, and vice vera, we need to remember, these two are uneducated and unworldly invidivuals here.  That is not meant as a critism of intellectual capabilities, but rather, to appreciate that Ennis has never been in a situation he finds himself in with a male lover..  Deliberately closing the door to thier future somewhat implies that Ennis knows  he and Jack are capable of a future together as a  couple.  He doesn't.   1963 west sociey dictated he get married to a woman.  Ennis 'doubts' theres nothing he can do about it because he doesnt know WHAT he can do.  We can speculate what Ennis would do were there  not the societal restriction circa 1963 toward same sex coulping, but it's clear that Ennis is at a loss to cope with his feelings and attractions towards Jack.  Ennis does want to keep Jack in his life somehow and increasingly becomes frustrated by the limitations on thier relationship.  Where Jack is more able to bitch about something he is unhappy with and discuss somewhat--god bless him!--Ennis usually resorts to violence.   

CherryCake I believe you are absolutely correct. Ennis had no idea what to do about anything. There was no "gay world" in 1963 Wyoming for him to learn from.  All he knew is that he and his best friend were having sex and this must be kept quiet because they might be killed. Didn't Ennis inquire about others feeling the way he a Jack did?  "I don't know but they don't do it in Wyoming. They must go to Denver."

So for 20 years the two of them would get together for their little togetherness with both loving the other but one loving a whole lot more then the other realized; until he found the shirts.  Ennis never knew what could have been done about the situation.

I can not believe after all the words written about this that you have hit the nail on the head. Bravo CherryCake!

[ksxks]

I have long believed that Proulx deserved a place among the writers that modern civilization chooses most to honor.  If you've never read The Shipping News, her first book (winner of both the Pulitzer and the National Book Award), I highly recommend it.

Sorry, OT--how about this to get us started again?  One of the things I most love about this scene--let me just be honest here--is the simple fact that they're both shirtless.  I think it's the only time, other than SNIT, when we see them really revelling in the feel of each other's skin.  They hardly ever get to enjoy it--but here they do.  And Ang Lee's decision to let us see just a little--"only so far, and nothing more"--proves far more sensual and tantalizing than the full monty could have. 

Oh yes, you're so right.  It is almost better to see a bit less -- more erotic to leave something to the imagination.  Here, seeing their bare skin, knowing they're naked -- we didn't get enough of that, so it's very beautiful.  Naked and sated...  They probably had dozed off first, after their marathon lovemaking; and what we see is still the middle of the night, after they woke up in each other's arms, and maybe Ennis got up to go to the john and came back and sat on the edge of the bed and Jack pulled him down to lie against him...

kathy

[Raisa]

I have long believed that Proulx deserved a place among the writers that modern civilization chooses most to honor.  If you've never read The Shipping News, her first book (winner of both the Pulitzer and the National Book Award), I highly recommend it.

Sorry, OT--how about this to get us started again?  One of the things I most love about this scene--let me just be honest here--is the simple fact that they're both shirtless.  I think it's the only time, other than SNIT, when we see them really revelling in the feel of each other's skin.  They hardly ever get to enjoy it--but here they do.  And Ang Lee's decision to let us see just a little--"only so far, and nothing more"--proves far more sensual and tantalizing than the full monty could have. 

Oh yes, you're so right.  It is almost better to see a bit less -- more erotic to leave something to the imagination.  Here, seeing their bare skin, knowing they're naked -- we didn't get enough of that, so it's very beautiful.  Naked and sated...  They probably had dozed off first, after their marathon lovemaking; and what we see is still the middle of the night, after they woke up in each other's arms, and maybe Ennis got up to go to the john and came back and sat on the edge of the bed and Jack pulled him down to lie against him...

kathy

Yes, and I am happy they are in some warm place, in that motel, and not outside in a cold tent.

[Raisa]

.... 1963 west sociey dictated he get married to a woman.  Ennis 'doubts' theres nothing he can do about it because he doesnt know WHAT he can do.  We can speculate what Ennis would do were there  not the societal restriction circa 1963 toward same sex coulping, but it's clear that Ennis is at a loss to cope with his feelings and attractions towards Jack.  Ennis does want to keep Jack in his life somehow and increasingly becomes frustrated by the limitations on thier relationship.  Where Jack is more able to bitch about something he is unhappy with and discuss somewhat--god bless him!--Ennis usually resorts to violence.   

CherryCake I believe you are absolutely correct. Ennis had no idea what to do about anything. There was no "gay world" in 1963 Wyoming for him to learn from.  All he knew is that he and his best friend were having sex and this must be kept quiet because they might be killed. Didn't Ennis inquire about others feeling the way he a Jack did?  "I don't know but they don't do it in Wyoming. They must go to Denver."

So for 20 years the two of them would get together for their little togetherness with both loving the other but one loving a whole lot more then the other realized; until he found the shirts.  Ennis never knew what could have been done about the situation.

I can not believe after all the words written about this that you have hit the nail on the head. Bravo CherryCake!

Than you for your opinions. "Ennis never knew what could have been done about the situation." I agree, he was lost and knew the threat of violence.

Smell fascinates me. Even human beings are said to choose their partners for their unique aroma. Not knowingly it, but instinctively. It is a relic from ancient times, when it served reproducing best possible progeny to survive and continue the human race to exist.

[tpe]

[I'm going to have to disagree with both of you on this scene and Ennis's reaction.  While we know Ennis really cares for and is obviously attracted to Jack, and vice vera, we need to remember, these two are uneducated and unworldly invidivuals here.  That is not meant as a critism of intellectual capabilities, but rather, to appreciate that Ennis has never been in a situation he finds himself in with a male lover..  Deliberately closing the door to thier future somewhat implies that Ennis knows  he and Jack are capable of a future together as a  couple.  He doesn't.   1963 west sociey dictated he get married to a woman.  Ennis 'doubts' theres nothing he can do about it because he doesnt know WHAT he can do.  We can speculate what Ennis would do were there  not the societal restriction circa 1963 toward same sex coulping, but it's clear that Ennis is at a loss to cope with his feelings and attractions towards Jack.  Ennis does want to keep Jack in his life somehow and increasingly becomes frustrated by the limitations on thier relationship.  Where Jack is more able to bitch about something he is unhappy with and discuss somewhat--god bless him!--Ennis usually resorts to violence.   

This is acceptable to me.  But, with or without a notion of "gayness", I do think Ennis expresses here the impossibility of changing his life to accomodate his love of Jack. 

As for living as a couple, Ennis must have had an idea of this as a possibility, particularly in the case of Earl and Rich.  Even as a young boy growing up, he was made to understand why Earl and Rich did not conform -- hence, the inevitable punishment metted out by a disapproving society.    It is not that he was unaware of such possibilities; it was a matter of his inability to bring about a change in his life in order to live out a love that he knew, from prior experience, was bound to attract disapproval and (in his mind) inevitable reprisal.

But I do think that closing the door to the possibility of a shared life did not necessarily mean that Ennis was closing the door on his love for Jack.  The solution was a clandestine love.  So long as they did not live openly the shared life that Jack dreamed of having, their love stood a chance of surviving through the years.  This is why I had always interpreted this strange pattern of limited engagements as a way for Ennis to protect their love from the forces that sought to destroy it.

Ennis must have envisioned possibilities that society at large would never have accepted out in the open.  It certainly did not need a notion of gayness, which is a latecomer relative to the ancient and persistent tradition of love between men.  At the core of this is my personal belief that such a love is as natural as rain and sunshine.  The possibilities have been envisioned for millenia.  It cannot be suppressed, even as light cannot be hidden in perpetual darkness.

[Raisa]

...  At the core of this is my personal belief that such a love is as natural as rain and sunshine.  The possibilities have been envisioned for millenia.  It cannot be suppressed, even as light cannot be hidden in perpetual darkness.

Thank you, tpe!

[welshwitch]

It's almost as though he has minimal expectations, not just of love but of everything, and settles for limitations in all sorts of ways. He also doesn't expect to be loved and can't really handle the idea, because he's never been seen as lovable till he meets Jack. (I 'm excluding Alma - that's just Ennis doing the conventional thing.) I can see him thinking of Jack as like some wonderful present, something you never dreamed of having, something you don't deserve, and so to be put away carefully and played with only occasionally. There's also the sense that he doesn't deserve Jack, and if he draws the attention of the gods they'll snatch him away.

AS far as love between two men ( or two women) is concerned, it's always existed. What varies is the amount of energy put by conventional society into repressing it and demonising those involved. Though it wasn't called that, there was certainly a gay scene in the UK in the sixties - I lived then in a smallish town on the borders of Wales where a friend was  gay and out; he was part of a gay group who were discreet but not secretive. I think Ennis knew about the possibilities but just couldn't acknowledge where his inclinations lay, and so constantly refused to do anything other than shut the door.

[NoReins]

I still don't think it's a lack of acknowledgement on Ennis's part - I think he does know where his preferences lie, but he buries his feelings deep down because of the fear of being struck down by the men with tire irons. When he tells Jack that it ain't gonna be that way, he doesn't say it's"because I'm not queer", he says it's because of what happened to Earl. Also - and bringing it back to the topic - although the change of location for the "sweet life" conversation means it's not used in the movie, in the short story, Ennis tells Jack that if his father walked through the door (of the motel room) at that moment he would go and get his tire iron for sure - and that's the reason why they can't live together.

[jesseanne21]

You also need to remember Ennis' personality...he is very responsible...always does his job (unless Jack sends a postcard).

Also, Ennis was orphaned at an early age, and would never leave his daughters...he knew what it was to be without a father.  Even a divorced sometime dad is better than no dad