Author Topic: Until the shirts / the shirts in the closet (Read 97054 times)

gimmejack · « **Reply #120 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 07:29 AM »

Nobody could ever come close to their love. A closed heart, indeed...May as well be dead.

welshwitch · « **Reply #121 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 12:20 PM »

DEad to the world in the sense of anyone new, maybe, but alive to the emotions inside himself and the knowledge of what Jack meant to him, with the shirts as a rminder of what he had meant to Jack.

"'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all."

gimmejack · « **Reply #122 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 01:19 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 10, 2006, 12:20 PM

DEad to the world in the sense of anyone new, maybe, but alive to the emotions inside himself and the knowledge of what Jack meant to him, with the shirts as a rminder of what he had meant to Jack.

"'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all."

Beautifully put!

welshwitch · « **Reply #123 on:** Jul 11, 2006, 06:10 AM »

By Samuel Butler, then later Tennyson!

But it does sum up what I feel - Ennis knows, when he holds the shirts, what he had and what he's lost, but at least he ( and Jack) had it for a time.

tpe · « **Reply #124 on:** Jul 11, 2006, 07:00 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 11, 2006, 06:10 AM

By Samuel Butler, then later Tennyson!

But it does sum up what I feel - Ennis knows, when he holds the shirts, what he had and what he's lost, but at least he ( and Jack) had it for a time.

The pain of love lost is pleasure compared to the void of not having loved at all.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #125 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 03:09 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 10, 2006, 06:44 AM

Yes, Ennis's blood is the compact that is sealed with the shedding of Jack's blood later on... When Ennis bleeds, so does Jack. When Jack dies, so does Ennis.

But Ennis didn't die. After Jack's death Ennis was coming alive. He admitted to himself he was in love with Jack in Jack's closet. He was brave enough to take the shirts even though it meant admitting to the Twists his love for Jack. He agreed to go to his daughter's wedding. No, no, TPE, Ennis didn't die. He was coming alive.

frances · « **Reply #126 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 07:04 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Jul 16, 2006, 03:09 PM

Quote from: tpe on Jul 10, 2006, 06:44 AM
Yes, Ennis's blood is the compact that is sealed with the shedding of Jack's blood later on... When Ennis bleeds, so does Jack. When Jack dies, so does Ennis.

But Ennis didn't die. After Jack's death Ennis was coming alive. He admitted to himself he was in love with Jack in Jack's closet. He was brave enough to take the shirts even though it meant admitting to the Twists his love for Jack. He agreed to go to his daughter's wedding. No, no, TPE, Ennis didn't die. He was coming alive.

Again. I agree with Patriot. The Jack's closet scene is the moment of Ennis'awareness, in a way, yes, the beginning of his coming alive.

welshwitch · « **Reply #127 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 04:55 AM »

In holding the shirts he comes to a realisation of his love though knowing that the one he loves is gone and will never be replaced - that's the point of "Jack, I swear," to some degree. He comes alive to the word of the emotions in the sense of allowing himself to try to understand the needs and wants of others, hence his promise to go to Alma Jr's wedding. Before this he's have used his usual excuse of work to avoid it.He was now alive to the possibility of involvement with others, as long as they were unlikely to hurt him as his love for Jack had done; as far as falling in love was concerned, he was dead to the possibility.

There are various ways of reacting to the loss of one you love, whether they die or simply become unavailable. You can treasure the memory and decide to remain faithful to it, or treasure the memory but remain open to the other possibilities. Ennis does the former. Or of course you can become embittered and give up on the world; Ennis emphaticaly doesn't do that.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #128 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 10:21 AM »

I almost have to force myself to watch the movie to this far. It's just to sad , but I watched the movie all the way through recently. The scene is so powerful it takes my breath away with Ennis discovering the shirts the way he did. The blood on them , taking him back to a much happier time on the mountain, contrasting with the present situation he's in makes me tear up. And then the realization that Jack's mom knows who he is and his true relationship to her son. It's obvious that Jack had a close bond with his mother, judging from the way she reacted to Ennis. At some point Jack must have told her about how he felt about Ennis and she at some point knew what the shirts meant. But the emotion between her and Ennis ,the mutual understanding between them is so well acted and so real it's off the page! Heartwrenching.

tpe · « **Reply #129 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 10:41 AM »

I had missed the post from Patriot1 and frances.

It is my fault not to clarify what I and meant. I posted this point of view in another thread, and I should not assume that everyone follows all the threads here.

Ennis will never love anybody else the way he loved Jack (if we take the "I swear" to mean eternal fidelity, as Jake Gyllenhaal has implied in one of his interviews). Here, the door to this is forever closed. But as I had said in the other post, a closed door is an invitiation for the pilgrim to enter roads not explored, and in this sense, Ennis is alive.

Judging from the tenor of how the older Ennis is described in the first dream sequence of the short story, I doubt that Ennis opens up that much in later life. He continues to dream of Jack. He remains alone, although the choice is there to live for a short time with his daughter. His daughter's love he will have; a love like that between him and Jack: never again. In that sense, he is indeed dead.

gimmejack · « **Reply #130 on:** Jul 18, 2006, 05:48 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 17, 2006, 10:41 AM

I had missed the post from Patriot1 and frances.

It is my fault not to clarify what I and meant. I posted this point of view in another thread, and I should not assume that everyone follows all the threads here.

Ennis will never love anybody else the way he loved Jack (if we take the "I swear" to mean eternal fidelity, as Jake Gyllenhaal has implied in one of his interviews). Here, the door to this is forever closed. But as I had said in the other post, a closed door is an invitiation for the pilgrim to enter roads not explored, and in this sense, Ennis is alive.

Judging from the tenor of how the older Ennis is described in the first dream sequence of the short story, I doubt that Ennis opens up that much in later life. He continues to dream of Jack. He remains alone, although the choice is there to live for a short time with his daughter. His daughter's love he will have; a love like that between him and Jack: never again. In that sense, he is indeed dead.

:\'( :\'(True...although enlightened, Ennis is heartbroken forevermore :\'( :\'(

jeffjoe · « **Reply #131 on:** Jul 18, 2006, 10:53 PM »

What is love? How you can recognize? Well look in your closet if you find two shirts together with a little bit of blood, maybe you have find love, have you think about it?

With best regards for all

tpe · « **Reply #132 on:** Jul 19, 2006, 07:36 AM »

Quote from: jeffjoe on Jul 18, 2006, 10:53 PM

What is love? How you can recognize? Well look in your closet if you find two shirts together with a little bit of blood, maybe you have find love, have you think about it?
With best regards for all

I think many of us here who have gone through the winepress of Love can identify their own "two bloodied shirts in the closet".

Love never leaves us unchanged. The winepress crushes the grape, even as it brings us new wine.

gimmejack · « **Reply #133 on:** Jul 19, 2006, 09:38 PM »

It's all the little things we save that for some reason were so important at that moment, they were carefully put away in a safe place and are carried with us through life...

welshwitch · « **Reply #134 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 05:43 AM »

Sometimes these very "treasures" are the ones we destroy when a relationship goes wrong; Jack kept the shirts. He goes back to Lightning Flat immediately after the confrontation with Ennsi, but he leaves the shirts where they are. And at least in his room there's no trace of Randall ( or anyone else) - Ennis is the only one he wants to remember.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #135 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 06:13 AM »

I wonder if Jack actually told his mom about the shirts, or was it something "unspoken" btween them. This would be an interesting conversation.

tpe · « **Reply #136 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 07:34 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 20, 2006, 06:13 AM

I wonder if Jack actually told his mom about the shirts, or was it something "unspoken" btween them. This would be an interesting conversation.

I recall a discussion of this possibility in an old thread (perhaps the one dealing with Jack's mom). If I recall correctly, the concensus then that it was improbable for her NOT to have known about the shirts. BUt I recall that there was no clear concensus as to whether they did or didn't talk about it. In my opinion, Jack's mom probably heard about Ennis many times, knew about the shirts, and put two and two together.

frances · « **Reply #137 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 05:43 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 05:43 AM

Sometimes these very "treasures" are the ones we destroy when a relationship goes wrong; Jack kept the shirts. He goes back to Lightning Flat immediately after the confrontation with Ennsi, but he leaves the shirts where they are. And at least in his room there's no trace of Randall ( or anyone else) - Ennis is the only one he wants to remember.

I've imagined Jack so many times, bringing those shirts out of the hidey-hole and caressing them, smelling Ennis's, holding on to them reverently just as Ennis does later on. As long as those shirts were hidden in the back of his closet, it proved Jack still loved Ennis. As long as Jack loved Ennis, he'd hold on to the shirts and keep them safe.

gimmejack · « **Reply #138 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 10:28 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 05:43 AM

Sometimes these very "treasures" are the ones we destroy when a relationship goes wrong; Jack kept the shirts. He goes back to Lightning Flat immediately after the confrontation with Ennsi, but he leaves the shirts where they are. And at least in his room there's no trace of Randall ( or anyone else) - Ennis is the only one he wants to remember.

Good point Welshwitch, those shirts are his most prized possession. Nobody else, including Randall or Lureen could ever compare. Those shirts are golden.

jeffjoe · « **Reply #139 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 11:28 PM »

Can a material thing show the real nature of love?... well two shirts in a closet may don't say anything for the rest of the people, but we, all in this forum know something about the true love, yes by God if we know it, love is a force of nature, a treasure as welshwitch say and two shirts are the symbol of this real and pure love

welshwitch · « **Reply #140 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 06:49 AM »

I wonder if Christians of whatever complexion have grown up attuned to the idea of material things as symbols and assign the shirts an iconic significance that others might not? I don't know,I'm just curious.

tpe · « **Reply #141 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 07:24 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 21, 2006, 06:49 AM

I wonder if Christians of whatever complexion have grown up attuned to the idea of material things as symbols and assign the shirts an iconic significance that others might not? I don't know,I'm just curious.

Not so sure if it is just limited to Christians. I think people of all creeds and races hunger for symbols. The shirts are just shirts, but the context that overlays them is universal.

welshwitch · « **Reply #142 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 11:22 AM »

Yes, but symbol aren't relics. Do other faiths go in for relics? I think we see the shirts in a sort of mediaeval way, like pieces of the True Cross or the handkerchief of St Veronica - I'm not sure whether adherents of other faiths would see them in the same way. There's also the fact that they're blood-stained - blood has powerful resonances in Christianity but does it have the same ones in other cultures? I don't know enough to say.

TheBoyFromNoWhere · « **Reply #143 on:** Jul 23, 2006, 11:46 PM »

Quote from: frances on Jul 20, 2006, 05:43 PM

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 05:43 AM
Sometimes these very "treasures" are the ones we destroy when a relationship goes wrong; Jack kept the shirts. He goes back to Lightning Flat immediately after the confrontation with Ennsi, but he leaves the shirts where they are. And at least in his room there's no trace of Randall ( or anyone else) - Ennis is the only one he wants to remember.

I've imagined Jack so many times, bringing those shirts out of the hidey-hole and caressing them, smelling Ennis's, holding on to them reverently just as Ennis does later on. As long as those shirts were hidden in the back of his closet, it proved Jack still loved Ennis. As long as Jack loved Ennis, he'd hold on to the shirts and keep them safe.

oh... i just read your post, frances. there are things that weren't in the movie. but if we imagine, it's such the things that we love to see.

just to imagine that, my heart is beating so hard.

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #144 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 08:17 AM »

Quote from: frances on Jul 20, 2006, 05:43 PM

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 05:43 AM
Sometimes these very "treasures" are the ones we destroy when a relationship goes wrong; Jack kept the shirts. He goes back to Lightning Flat immediately after the confrontation with Ennsi, but he leaves the shirts where they are. And at least in his room there's no trace of Randall ( or anyone else) - Ennis is the only one he wants to remember.

I've imagined Jack so many times, bringing those shirts out of the hidey-hole and caressing them, smelling Ennis's, holding on to them reverently just as Ennis does later on. As long as those shirts were hidden in the back of his closet, it proved Jack still loved Ennis. As long as Jack loved Ennis, he'd hold on to the shirts and keep them safe.

:\'( :\'(

Watching BBM yesterday for the first time in almost a month, these moments when Ennis finds the shirts struck me differently than before.

Before had always broken down thinking about what Ennis was feeling at that moment. His pain, him clinging to the shirts because they were all that was left for him now, physical proof of Jack's love for him from the beginning.

This time, it also felt as if Ennis was claiming Jack, by taking those shirts into his arms. And thinkng of Jack watching Ennis do this, for once it wasn't only the heartbreak coming through. I could almost feel Jack resting more peacefully, content now because he'd also be thinking "Ennis ... you finally came for me. You're really here, for me". The way Ennis had never been able to do for Jack in life.

tpe · « **Reply #145 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 08:41 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 21, 2006, 11:22 AM

Yes, but symbol aren't relics. Do other faiths go in for relics? I think we see the shirts in a sort of mediaeval way, like pieces of the True Cross or the handkerchief of St Veronica - I'm not sure whether adherents of other faiths would see them in the same way. There's also the fact that they're blood-stained - blood has powerful resonances in Christianity but does it have the same ones in other cultures? I don't know enough to say.

Actually, the idea of relics in the Christianity of Late Antiquity probably owed a lot (albeit through indirect transmission) to the cult of relics in Buddhism. Of course, such things as the tooth of the Buddha are one of the most cherished relics in the world. It should not be lost upon us that the story of the "Christian" Saints Barlaam and Josaphat is actually the Story of the Buddha -- as unkowningly retold by John Damascene in the 6th century. So technically, Buddha is a Christian saint...

Sorry if a bit OOT.

frances · « **Reply #146 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 12:43 PM »

Quote from: MississaugaRed on Jul 24, 2006, 08:17 AM

Watching BBM yesterday for the first time in almost a month, these moments when Ennis finds the shirts struck me differently than before.

Before had always broken down thinking about what Ennis was feeling at that moment. His pain, him clinging to the shirts because they were all that was left for him now, physical proof of Jack's love for him from the beginning.

This time, it also felt as if Ennis was claiming Jack, by taking those shirts into his arms. And thinkng of Jack watching Ennis do this, for once it wasn't only the heartbreak coming through. I could almost feel Jack resting more peacefully, content now because he'd also be thinking "Ennis ... you finally came for me. You're really here, for me". The way Ennis had never been able to do for Jack in life.

It seems right now that all I've ever done in my life is making my way here to you.
(The Bridges of Madison County )

Wonderful post. Thank you

MississaugaRed · « **Reply #147 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 12:54 PM »

Quote from: frances on Jul 24, 2006, 12:43 PM

It seems right now that all I've ever done in my life is making my way here to you.
(The Bridges of Madison County )

Wonderful post. Thank you

I love that quote, frances ... words to match the image of Ennis embracing the shirts.

Thank YOU!

aimi15 · « **Reply #148 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 01:24 PM »

Quote from: frances on Jul 24, 2006, 12:43 PM

Quote from: MississaugaRed on Jul 24, 2006, 08:17 AM

Watching BBM yesterday for the first time in almost a month, these moments when Ennis finds the shirts struck me differently than before.

Before had always broken down thinking about what Ennis was feeling at that moment. His pain, him clinging to the shirts because they were all that was left for him now, physical proof of Jack's love for him from the beginning.

This time, it also felt as if Ennis was claiming Jack, by taking those shirts into his arms. And thinkng of Jack watching Ennis do this, for once it wasn't only the heartbreak coming through. I could almost feel Jack resting more peacefully, content now because he'd also be thinking "Ennis ... you finally came for me. You're really here, for me". The way Ennis had never been able to do for Jack in life.

It seems right now that all I've ever done in my life is making my way here to you.
(The Bridges of Madison County )

Wonderful post. Thank you

MisRed, this is one of the most tearjerking but utterly beautiful posts i have read. It hadn't really occurred to me in that way before, i'm usually in a mess by then, but the way you have put it makes total sense. Thank you for a truly gorgeous post.

browneyes · « **Reply #149 on:** Jul 24, 2006, 01:27 PM »

And to me the shirts prove that Jack would've still saw Ennis, even if he tried to have a life with someone else. The shirts to me is like an unconditional love Jack had for Ennis and no one could change that. In the scene, after the flashback and the look on Jack's face, to me Jack is thinking that his dream with Ennis is dead. So he can try to find someone to share his sweet life. But the shirts prove Jack would've still saw Ennis even after trying to have a life with someone else. That is why I believe the November trip would've been the big ultimatum-the decision that would change the course of their entire relationship. If Ennis knew Jack was having a life w/ someone else, he would've been on fire. However, what Ennis would've done is totally left in the air. He probably would've killed Randall in his sleep. And have that life with Jack.

Author Topic: Until the shirts / the shirts in the closet (Read 97054 times)

aimi15

browneyes