Author Topic: why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss (Read 68845 times)

lamusica · « **Reply #30 on:** Jul 19, 2006, 02:12 PM »

I agree. Alma never got over Ennis. Her hurt was too deep. If she didn't really love Ennis so much, she would not have been so devastated when she saw Ennis and Jack kissing. Subconsciously, from that point on, I think Alma began to withdraw from Ennis. I don't think she meant to, but the hurt in finding out she was not his true love had to come between them. That was the beginning of the end. Still, after the divource, she wanted to see him happy.

ksxks · « **Reply #31 on:** Jul 19, 2006, 06:41 PM »

Quote from: stacp on Jul 19, 2006, 01:48 PM

Very good points, smilesalot. I got the impression that Alma was still carrying a torch for Ennis during that Thanksgiving scene, and I mean more than just the angry torch. I think she still loved him and was angry at him for not loving her back. My sister is divorced from an ex husband she could care less about. She doesn't give him a second thought, despite all the crap he pulled during her marriage (for which she has every reason to be angry about). She just doesn't care because she doesn't care about him. But Alma has that fire in her eyes and the pain just seems to be so raw for her, like there are feeling still there. And, let's face it, Ennis is way hotter than Monroe! (Sorry, I couldn't resist).

You leave Monroe out of this -- this ain't his fault!

Good points both, smilesalot and stacp. Especially about Alma still having strong feelings. You're so right, and I never really thought much of it before. She obviously cares still for Ennis or she wouldn't still be so angry in that Thanksgiving scene. Your sister's feelings (no feelings) for her ex, a good example.

Actually, I don't even mean to come here and discuss Alma. I get tied up in a perspective from the other side, and I don't really want to. She, Lureen and Cassie have never been of focus or interest to me -- I don't want them to be. If they were, I might see this movie quite differently. They are an important part of the men's stories, but this is NOT a movie about marital infidelity. Not to me. I'm sure other people see it as that, as the evils of gayness, ruining families.

Which reminds me of a woman friend I just spoke with after it had been a while, who would normally be all over Ennis and Jack and their love; but she's going through a painful divorce right now, with a cheating husband and two kids, and it was just the wrong time for her to see BBM.

kathy

welshwitch · « **Reply #32 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 02:01 AM »

It's true - a friend who was divorced many years ago, though her husband had found himself a younger blonde, still speaks of him with great bitterness ( though of her previous ex-husband with some affection) hates the whole idea of BBM and blames Jack and Ennis for what they feel for each other - her only sympathies are with the two wives. Her feeling is that from the moment you find out the person you thought loved you actually loves someone lese more is the moment you begin to hate them. However, once you start looking at things from the wives' perspective, it distorts the movie as it was made - it's not meant to be abour their experiences.

NoReins · « **Reply #33 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 02:18 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 02:01 AM

It's true - a friend who was divorced many years ago, though her husband had found himself a younger blonde, still speaks of him with great bitterness ( though of her previous ex-husband with some affection) hates the whole idea of BBM and blames Jack and Ennis for what they feel for each other - her only sympathies are with the two wives. Her feeling is that from the moment you find out the person you thought loved you actually loves someone lese more is the moment you begin to hate them. However, once you start looking at things from the wives' perspective, it distorts the movie as it was made - it's not meant to be abour their experiences.

Very good point Welshwitch. I've never really thought too much about how Alma must have felt (and Lureen to a lesser extent because she didn't know until the end) After seeing the movie for the first time, I came out talking about how tragic Ennis and Jack's relationship was and how sad I felt that they never got to really be together - but one of the friends I went with saw the whole thing from Alma's perspective and was angry at Ennis (in particular) for ruining her life. I suppose that would change your view of the movie - maybe that's why my friend never really "got it"....

tpe · « **Reply #34 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 07:46 AM »

Quote from: NoReins on Jul 20, 2006, 02:18 AM

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 20, 2006, 02:01 AM
It's true - a friend who was divorced many years ago, though her husband had found himself a younger blonde, still speaks of him with great bitterness ( though of her previous ex-husband with some affection) hates the whole idea of BBM and blames Jack and Ennis for what they feel for each other - her only sympathies are with the two wives. Her feeling is that from the moment you find out the person you thought loved you actually loves someone lese more is the moment you begin to hate them. However, once you start looking at things from the wives' perspective, it distorts the movie as it was made - it's not meant to be abour their experiences.

Very good point Welshwitch. I've never really thought too much about how Alma must have felt (and Lureen to a lesser extent because she didn't know until the end) After seeing the movie for the first time, I came out talking about how tragic Ennis and Jack's relationship was and how sad I felt that they never got to really be together - but one of the friends I went with saw the whole thing from Alma's perspective and was angry at Ennis (in particular) for ruining her life. I suppose that would change your view of the movie - maybe that's why my friend never really "got it"....

Interestingly enough, I know of a gay couple who feel exactly the same way: they blame Ennis and Jack and sympathize with the wives. I had found this interesting, though perhaps this is a bit OOT.

welshwitch · « **Reply #35 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 09:34 AM »

I suppose now, if you set out as a gay couple from the start and don't face so many obstacles, you can take that view. It must have been very difficult in the sixties even to contemplate oneself as a gay, never mind finding a partner. In any case, men have always left their wives, ok often for this year's model, but it's almost as bad in that case.

*o)I knew a prof once who was too busy with his academic stuff to notice that his wife was spending all her time with her ( female) best friend, till she decamped to set up home with her. He was mildly surprised but got on with burning boiled eggs without too much concern.

I think once she's home and dry with Monroe Alma feels vestigial guilr and responsibility for Ennis - maybe she wants him to remarry to salve her consceienc. But really I think she's known since witnessing that kiss and never felt the same abut him again.

smilesalot · « **Reply #36 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 09:44 AM »

Yes, it's always kind of bugged me when people say how callous both Jack and Ennis are but then I see what they're saying when you look at it from Alma's or Lureen's POV. I always kind of see Alma as the conduit for showing us why Ennis doesn't go with Jack - family responsibilities etc. -- she kind of represents society's view. I really can't think too much about Alma mostly because I can't look at Michelle Williams without melting into a pool of psychotic jealousy. (Takes two cleansing breaths.....) Not too sure what my read is on Lureen, gonna have to explore this on another thread probably. Seems to me both Jack and Lureen had a mutually advantageous partnership, I didn't get the sense Lureen thought of Jack as the love of her life really, I mean she allowed her Dad to kind of emasculate him. As for Cassie, she was kind of a parallel relationship, to show us the extent of Ennis' feelings for Jack. Like if it wasn't for Jack, maybe he would've opened up to her but he realized no one can make him feel as Jack does, and so he cuts her loose, like he should have done with Alma after Brokeback.

It's a shame that all the women get hurt but I guess that's part of tragedy, the push and pull of this story. I think the reason why Ennis was so pulled apart by his emotions is because he knew he was hurting everyone around him and he was (in his mind) stuck and couldn't figure out how to fix it. Although Alma freezes when she sees Jack & Ennis, she eventually finds a way to get herself un-stuck. The tragedy is Ennis can't overcome his fears, and realizes too late, the path he should have chosen.

ksxks · « **Reply #37 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 03:16 PM »

These are all very interesting posts -- and even more interesting because we women have not found our focus to be sympathy with the "wronged" women in this story. This must be yet more of the masters touch of this movie, that we who (speaking for myself) would normally be on the women's sides, are not. They are really peripheral to the story, which is of Ennis and Jack. And yes, smilesalot -- they definitely are there to represent society's view (as is Aguirre with his binoculars, etc.), represent the reasons Ennis and Jack can't be together.

Welshwitch, I'm intrigued by your saying Alma may have been feeling "vestigial guilt and responsibility" for Ennis and needed to "salve her conscience." Please elaborate? Or do you mean just because she did after all really love him, that even though he wronged her she still cared and wanted him to be well?

kathy

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #38 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 05:08 PM »

Quote from: ksxks on Jul 20, 2006, 03:16 PM

These are all very interesting posts -- and even more interesting because we women have not found our focus to be sympathy with the "wronged" women in this story. This must be yet more of the masters touch of this movie, that we who (speaking for myself) would normally be on the women's sides, are not. They are really peripheral to the story, which is of Ennis and Jack. And yes, smilesalot -- they definitely are there to represent society's view (as is Aguirre with his binoculars, etc.), represent the reasons Ennis and Jack can't be together.

Personally, I think it's because I don't see it in terms of "taking sides". Of course I have huge amounts of sympathy for Alma and Lureen,but I don't see Ennis and Jack as the bad guys who cheated on their wives,the "bad guy" in the movie is the homophobic society that made sure Ennis and Jack couldn't be together,that's how Alma and Lureen ended up being dragged into it

It's not like Ennis and Jack went into their marriages with the intention of making Alma and Lureen unhappy, they just found that they were unable to make them happy, however much they might have tried. Even if Ennis and Jack had never been re-united after that first summer (or even if they had never even met), I don't think they would have been any happier in their marriages, maybe Alma wouldn't have divorced Ennis, but it doesn't mean they would have been happy. The tragedy is that Ennis and Jack could have been happy, and so could Alma and Lureen, if they'd lived in a different time and place, I think anyone who blames Ennis and Jack for all the unhappiness in the movie is totally missing the point, imo.

ksxks · « **Reply #39 on:** Jul 20, 2006, 10:26 PM »

Quote from: CrimsonSky on Jul 20, 2006, 05:08 PM

Personally, I think it's because I don't see it in terms of "taking sides". Of course I have huge amounts of sympathy for Alma and Lureen,but I don't see Ennis and Jack as the bad guys who cheated on their wives,the "bad guy" in the movie is the homophobic society that made sure Ennis and Jack couldn't be together,that's how Alma and Lureen ended up being dragged into it It's not like Ennis and Jack went into their marriages with the intention of making Alma and Lureen unhappy, they just found that they were unable to make them happy, however much they might have tried. Even if Ennis and Jack had never been re-united after that first summer (or even if they had never even met), I don't think they would have been any happier in their marriages, maybe Alma wouldn't have divorced Ennis, but it doesn't mean they would have been happy. The tragedy is that Ennis and Jack could have been happy, and so could Alma and Lureen, if they'd lived in a different time and place, I think anyone who blames Ennis and Jack for all the unhappiness in the movie is totally missing the point, imo.

So right, CS. These were men who tried to do the proper thing...but the world was just not set up right for them.

kathy

welshwitch · « **Reply #40 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 12:54 AM »

I meant that having been married to him fo almost eight years and had two children with him, Alma presumably still felt she had some links with him, although she didn't want to be married to him. Seeing him on his own at Thanksgiving, the sort of family occasion when people tend to be in a sentimental mood anyway, and being settled with Monroe and about to have his baby, even Alma must have noticed the contrast between Ennis's life and hers. And it was she who initiated the divorce and left him on his own.

If Ennis were to marry again, there would be someone else to look after him, and Alma could also feel that she'd done the right thing now that both she and Ennis were settled in new relationships. In other words I think there's a lot of self-justification tied up in all this.In their society a man needed a woman to take care of him - even Alma Jr's reaction to his trailer is to suggest that he needs more furniture - it's all part of the assumption that men can't cope on their own. Alma was brought up with these assumptions, and may have a sense of guilt that she failed to isn't fulfi her conventional role as far as Ennis is concerned.

ksxks · « **Reply #41 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 03:39 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 21, 2006, 12:54 AM

I meant that having been married to him fo almost eight years and had two children with him, Alma presumably still felt she had some links with him, although she didn't want to be married to him. Seeing him on his own at Thanksgiving, the sort of family occasion when people tend to be in a sentimental mood anyway, and being settled with Monroe and about to have his baby, even Alma must have noticed the contrast between Ennis's life and hers. And it was she who initiated the divorce and left him on his own.

If Ennis were to marry again, there would be someone else to look after him, and Alma could also feel that she'd done the right thing now that both she and Ennis were settled in new relationships. In other words I think there's a lot of self-justification tied up in all this.In their society a man needed a woman to take care of him - even Alma Jr's reaction to his trailer is to suggest that he needs more furniture - it's all part of the assumption that men can't cope on their own. Alma was brought up with these assumptions, and may have a sense of guilt that she failed to isn't fulfi her conventional role as far as Ennis is concerned.

For sure, ww -- all the mores of the times. How interesting that Alma could get screwed by her husband loving someone else, yet still feel she didn't do right by him. We people sure are a mishmash of dynamics. Ain't none so queer as folk.

Besides, societal assumptions or not, she probably just did really care, and want to be sure he's taken care of. You're so right -- in those times, seeing a man by himself, without a woman, you'd feel sorry for him.

kathy

smilesalot · « **Reply #42 on:** Jul 21, 2006, 10:20 PM »

I find it so interesting that the definition of "fidelity" is really questioned in this story. Part of the brilliance, really. For Ennis, it's okay if Jack has relationships with women, even cats around on his wife...but explodes, or rather implodes, into anger when faced with the knowledge Jack has been with other women. On the other hand, Alma has no problem prodding Ennis to find another woman to take care of him, yet, bitterly opposes the knowledge of his relationship with Jack. Granted, Alma and Ennis were divorced, but I felt no residual jealousy from her regarding another woman, yet, immense jealousy towards Jack. The societal viiew comes out again....for Ennis, its okay for Jack to be with other women -- heck, m/f relationships are the norm. But Jack with another man? Hold up! That would mean this wasn't a one-shot deal, that would mean Jack was queer! That ain't right. Ennis has no point of reference to deal with his feelings on this. Same with Alma. Ennis with a woman? That's okay, that would mean he was normal. But with Jack? Hell no! That would mean the father of her children was some kind of deviant. Again, Alma's totally ill-quipped to cope with this.

welshwitch · « **Reply #43 on:** Jul 22, 2006, 05:40 AM »

In other words heterosexual fidelity is the norm, heterosexual infidelity can be accommodated, but homosexual fidelity and infidelity are equally unacceptable to the straight, while homosexual infidelity is much more problematic to those involved. Just another example of double standards.

rane99 · « **Reply #44 on:** Aug 05, 2006, 11:25 PM »

Oh, I agree. Alma couldn't comprehend what see what seeing when see saw Ennis kissing Jack. It threw her for a loop and it seems she accepted it in some way over the years. Well, she had to. She was married with kids. Poor Alma

Patriot1 · « **Reply #45 on:** Sep 18, 2006, 02:52 AM »

Quote from: rane99 on Aug 05, 2006, 11:25 PM

Oh, I agree. Alma couldn't comprehend what see what seeing when see saw Ennis kissing Jack. It threw her for a loop and it seems she accepted it in some way over the years. Well, she had to. She was married with kids. Poor Alma

"why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss"

Because she is a woman and likes seeing two men in love?

(Just looking for another topic and couldn't resist.)

NoReins · « **Reply #46 on:** Sep 18, 2006, 04:34 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Sep 18, 2006, 02:52 AM

"why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss"

Because she is a woman and likes seeing two men in love?

(Just looking for another topic and couldn't resist.)

I think that explains why a lot of us on here freeze when watching them kiss....but I have a feeling there may have been more to it for Alma!

smilesalot · « **Reply #47 on:** Sep 18, 2006, 01:54 PM »

Actually, I usually freeze Jack and Ennis during this part, and then watch it again and again v e r y s l o w l y.

NoReins · « **Reply #48 on:** Sep 18, 2006, 02:46 PM »

I didn't say what I was freezing, Smiles

Umi_Slash · « **Reply #49 on:** Sep 18, 2006, 05:21 PM »

I kinda agree with most of you, but I agree even more with the fact of the pasion in the kiss... Alma is thinking: He has NEVER kissed me like that! and she also asks herself what does that man have that she doesn't and why does this man make Ennis feel so happy and she can't do it, and also she thinks that Ennis is not considering her feelings when he leaves to his fishing trips...

But most of all, she says that the girls are worried because he is alone, but we know (and she knows to) that he is not THAT alone, and if he considers marriage again, the woman he marries will sufer the same way she did, and she is not thinking a lot about THAT...

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #50 on:** Sep 18, 2006, 05:29 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Sep 18, 2006, 02:52 AM

Quote from: rane99 on Aug 05, 2006, 11:25 PM
Oh, I agree. Alma couldn't comprehend what see what seeing when see saw Ennis kissing Jack. It threw her for a loop and it seems she accepted it in some way over the years. Well, she had to. She was married with kids. Poor Alma

"why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss"

Because she is a woman and likes seeing two men in love?

(Just looking for another topic and couldn't resist.)

Whatever gave you that idea?

Maybe that's what Alma was doing with her bag, looking for her binoculars?!

Umi_Slash · « **Reply #51 on:** Sep 18, 2006, 05:55 PM »

Quote from: CrimsonSky on Sep 18, 2006, 05:29 PM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Sep 18, 2006, 02:52 AM
Quote from: rane99 on Aug 05, 2006, 11:25 PM
Oh, I agree. Alma couldn't comprehend what see what seeing when see saw Ennis kissing Jack. It threw her for a loop and it seems she accepted it in some way over the years. Well, she had to. She was married with kids. Poor Alma

"why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss"

Because she is a woman and likes seeing two men in love?

(Just looking for another topic and couldn't resist.)

Whatever gave you that idea? Maybe that's what Alma was doing with her bag, looking for her binoculars?!

Did she have any?? O.o Because if she did, then she wasn't as angry as she looked like in that Thanksgiving lol

greenfrog · « **Reply #52 on:** Oct 01, 2006, 11:35 PM »

Quote from: CrimsonSky on Sep 18, 2006, 05:29 PM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Sep 18, 2006, 02:52 AM
Quote from: rane99 on Aug 05, 2006, 11:25 PM
Oh, I agree. Alma couldn't comprehend what see what seeing when see saw Ennis kissing Jack. It threw her for a loop and it seems she accepted it in some way over the years. Well, she had to. She was married with kids. Poor Alma

"why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss"

Because she is a woman and likes seeing two men in love?

(Just looking for another topic and couldn't resist.)

Whatever gave you that idea? Maybe that's what Alma was doing with her bag, looking for her binoculars?!

welshwitch · « **Reply #53 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 01:04 AM »

People often freeze in the face of danger, a sort of primitive response, almost like kids who think if they cover their eyes and can't see you, you can't see them. It's as though Alma doesn't want to give a clue to her presence because what could they say if they knew she was there, and what could she say? And also because she's confronting something she can't quite take in but knows is dangerous and destructive as far as she's concerned - a bit like seeing a poisonous snake or spider.

greenfrog · « **Reply #54 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 01:13 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 02, 2006, 01:04 AM

People often freeze in the face of danger, a sort of primitive response, almost like kids who think if they cover their eyes and can't see you, you can't see them.

Like a deer caught in the headlights.

welshwitch · « **Reply #55 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 01:43 AM »

And at that point I feel sorry for herm because there's nothing she can do that won;t be the wrong thing. Not to mention that she's watching her marriage fall apart in front of her, with all that implies.

tpe · « **Reply #56 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 07:56 AM »

Quote from: greenfrog on Oct 02, 2006, 01:13 AM

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 02, 2006, 01:04 AM
People often freeze in the face of danger, a sort of primitive response, almost like kids who think if they cover their eyes and can't see you, you can't see them.

Like a deer caught in the headlights.

This is very apt.

welshwitch · « **Reply #57 on:** Oct 02, 2006, 09:38 AM »

Alma has a much worse time than Lureen too - Lureen may suspect, may be disappointed in Jack in some ways, but she never sees the reality of his love for Ennis. Alma can;r be in any doubt after the reunion kiss of Ennis's feelings for Jack. I can ( when in an atypically feminist mode) see her here as being deprived of her female identity and descending into looking unkepmt, unattractive and scruffy, while behaving shrewishly and trying to assert herself. In a sense the divorce is inherent in this scene - she changes when she marries Monroe, looks better, dresses better, has more confidence, and gets pregnant again, which she deliberately hasn't done with Ennis.

tpe · « **Reply #58 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 07:55 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 02, 2006, 09:38 AM

Alma has a much worse time than Lureen too - Lureen may suspect, may be disappointed in Jack in some ways, but she never sees the reality of his love for Ennis. Alma can;r be in any doubt after the reunion kiss of Ennis's feelings for Jack. I can ( when in an atypically feminist mode) see her here as being deprived of her female identity and descending into looking unkepmt, unattractive and scruffy, while behaving shrewishly and trying to assert herself. In a sense the divorce is inherent in this scene - she changes when she marries Monroe, looks better, dresses better, has more confidence, and gets pregnant again, which she deliberately hasn't done with Ennis.

Also, the revelation came out of the blue -- as far as Alma was concerned. In a sense, she was naive. Had she not seen the kiss, would she have suspected? Perhpas after a while -- Ennis was so careless. But at the moment she sees them kissing, her whole world must have indeed come crashing down. It takes a while to take it all in -- and yet she had sense enough to withdraw and try to internalize her own turmoil.

It is hard to know at the point of introduction who harbored the greatest innder turmoil. It is a miracle than ony of them spoke at all in that scene...

welshwitch · « **Reply #59 on:** Oct 03, 2006, 10:16 AM »

It's convincing that they resort to social generalities but don't quite manage to sound natural, as one wouldn;t in a situation as fraught as this.