Topic: Significane of Ennis entering the Tent *Spoiler*

[tpe]

Oh,of course,the unknown was within Ennis himself,doubtless...When I was talking about "fear to the unknown",I meant that,even if he knew was was going to happen when he had entered the tent,there was something inside him that refused it and,even,was doubtful about how he and Jack would react,as you say.But,IMO,more than in these concrete moments,in the following days,the consequences that this was going to have in them and how he'd lived having explored this side of him that he wished,refused,loved and hated at the same time.

Exactly.  The consequences of their actions were in some ways partly seen by both of them, but a lot of it was largely unknown.  They probably didn't want to know at that very moment.  This is the nature of decisive action -- one can only act decisively when one sets aside one's doubts about the future...

[myprivatejack]

Exactly.  The consequences of their actions were in some ways partly seen by both of them, but a lot of it was largely unknown.  They probably didn't want to know at that very moment.  This is the nature of decisive action -- one can only act decisively when one sets aside one's doubts about the future..

Yes,the same than very often-and I'd say that it should be always,in order that our life was more equilibrated-our actions are a wise-or not...-mix of sensibility and boldness.In that moment,it's sure that Ennis let his sensible side out of the tent,even if the rest of his life this has more weight than the boldness...

[tpe]

Yes,the same than very often-and I'd say that it should be always,in order that our life was more equilibrated-our actions are a wise-or not...-mix of sensibility and boldness.In that moment,it's sure that Ennis let his sensible side out of the tent,even if the rest of his life this has more weight than the boldness...

Can one place some significance that in this very scene, Ennis invariably shuts his eyes?  I think this detail is significant to our present exchange...

[myprivatejack]

Can one place some significance that in this very scene, Ennis invariably shuts his eyes?  I think this detail is significant to our present exchange...

Ah,it could be...Maybe is it only a way to feel Jack better?Or,as in DE scene,a way for not seeing that it is a man who he is making love to?...

[tpe]

Ah,it could be...Maybe is it only a way to feel Jack better?Or,as in DE scene,a way for not seeing that it is a man who he is making love to?...

Or is it like a man about to jump off a cliff -- averting one's gaze and making the "leap" of faith?

[arlyn9391]

Just went to my 5th viewing today. Every time is a new discovery and thought process. One of them is the topic I am posting.

In the 2nd tent scene, why did Ennis enter the tent and apologize to Jack? How significant is his initiative?

Well..I have thought of the first question - still can't figure it out. Any thought on that?

For the second question, it is no doubt in my mind that Ennis was drawn to Jack and really took comfort in the relationship. The love making scene is just incredible. I could watch it over and over again. 

Thank you fro sharing with us the story about the significance of Ennis entering the tent.




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[tpe]

    More like "plunge" of faith...

             

I do agree.  "Plunge" is much more appropriate.  It suggests great depths whereas the other would suggest reaching hights before the fall.

[jedibarrister]

Submission is a good word. It is such a rarity for Ennis. *sniff* too. I think this is the only one time when Ennis was taking the *lead* in the relationship.

Actually, Ennis is always lead in the relationship after Jack takes his hand that first night.  He is the one who takes Jack, he is the one who decides to come to the tent the second night, he is the one who ends it, and when things pick back up, he is the one who lays the ground work and dictates how the relationship will go.  Hence Jack's quip about being on a "short leash".

As for the second tent scene, Ennis is sitting at the fire deciding on what to do (IMO).  Is it really a "one shot thing" (which apparently the Italian version translated as "story is over before it started", i.e. woops that was a mistake) or is he really going to go with this.  Is it humility that takes him to the tent?  Submission?  I saw it as abject fear and nervousness.  He can say "I was drunk" and dismiss the night before.  But he's stone-cold sober and walking into a tent where another man is to have sex.  That's stepping through the looking glass.  Jack calmed him down and told him "It's ok" (to be here, to feel this, to want this, etc.).  It's surprising how ok Jack was with all this.  Makes you wonder if he was new to this.

My 2 cents....late as it is.

[lancecowboy]

Actually, Ennis is always lead in the relationship after Jack takes his hand that first night.  He is the one who takes Jack, he is the one who decides to come to the tent the second night, he is the one who ends it, and when things pick back up, he is the one who lays the ground work and dictates how the relationship will go.  Hence Jack's quip about being on a "short leash".

As for the second tent scene, Ennis is sitting at the fire deciding on what to do (IMO).  Is it really a "one shot thing" (which apparently the Italian version translated as "story is over before it started", i.e. woops that was a mistake) or is he really going to go with this.  Is it humility that takes him to the tent?  Submission?  I saw it as abject fear and nervousness.  He can say "I was drunk" and dismiss the night before.  But he's stone-cold sober and walking into a tent where another man is to have sex.  That's stepping through the looking glass.  Jack calmed him down and told him "It's ok" (to be here, to feel this, to want this, etc.).  It's surprising how ok Jack was with all this.  Makes you wonder if he was new to this.

My 2 cents....late as it is.

  jedibarrister and I agree with you, 100%.

Jack rode more than bulls in 'em rodeos.

The emotions that Heath conveyed in those wordless moments in SNIT, foreshadows the silent yet powerful scene in Jack's bedroom. In SNIT Ennis accepted his own attraction to Jack, though unable to name it or get a handle on it. In the bedroom, he recognized finally that it was love.

[jedibarrister]

I always thought Ennis knew it was love.  He tells Jack that the reason he dry heaved was because he never should've let Jack out of his sight.  He refers to Jack as "little darlin'".  He sacrifices his financial welfare and family to keep his flexibility for Jack.  The idea of another man with Jack enrages him with jealousy.  I don't think that Ennis didn't realize his love for Jack until it was too late.  I think he didn't realize that he was willing to take the risks until it was too late.

[tpe]

I always thought Ennis knew it was love.  He tells Jack that the reason he dry heaved was because he never should've let Jack out of his sight.  He refers to Jack as "little darlin'".  He sacrifices his financial welfare and family to keep his flexibility for Jack.  The idea of another man with Jack enrages him with jealousy.  I don't think that Ennis didn't realize his love for Jack until it was too late.  I think he didn't realize that he was willing to take the risks until it was too late.

It is hard to pinpoint the exact place.  But I think that the realization of love has many levels, and to a great extent, the realization of how deep and true that love really was WAS only recognized after Jack's death.  For me, it was clear that up until jack's death, Ennis continued to shun risks -- especially that one risk that lay at the very heart of their eventual confrontation -- the risk to drop all and live a sweet life with Jack.  Ennis's admission that he couldn't stand it anymore does not necessarily constitute a reversal of course in this matter -- that he would be willing to finally live with Jack. 

[myprivatejack]

I always thought Ennis knew it was love.  He tells Jack that the reason he dry heaved was because he never should've let Jack out of his sight.  He refers to Jack as "little darlin'".  He sacrifices his financial welfare and family to keep his flexibility for Jack.  The idea of another man with Jack enrages him with jealousy.  I don't think that Ennis didn't realize his love for Jack until it was too late.  I think he didn't realize that he was willing to take the risks until it was too late.

I agree with you and,as a matter of fact,I talk about this in "What if...?" thread.Even if it's difficult to establish some behaviour rules in a so complicated psyche as Ennis one,I also think what you say: I think he didn't realize that he was willing to take the risks until it was too late..And that he never was willing to admit that he felt love for Jack just because he knew it was love,precisely...

[lancecowboy]

I always thought Ennis knew it was love.  He tells Jack that the reason he dry heaved was because he never should've let Jack out of his sight.  He refers to Jack as "little darlin'".  He sacrifices his financial welfare and family to keep his flexibility for Jack.  The idea of another man with Jack enrages him with jealousy.  I don't think that Ennis didn't realize his love for Jack until it was too late.  I think he didn't realize that he was willing to take the risks until it was too late.

He didn't figure that out until a year later, probably when Junior was born, and he wish he could share the good news with Jack.

Altough he knew it was special, like the reunion thanking heavens, but I don't think he knew it was love, the kind that lasts a life time, until Cassie told him girls don't fall in love for fun. Then he realized that in spite of all the hardship, quit jobs, hiding, lying, losing his marriage, the life with Jack was still better than life without him. That's when he could put a name to this thing with no reins.

Up till then, he was just trying to figure out what's wrong with him...a regular guy who wouldn't pay no attention to another guy, and who kept wringing it out hundreds of time thinking of Jack.

I don't think Ennis was smart enough to figure it out on his own. No offense Ennis. Just that, feelings get too confusing for anyone to handle on their own. Ennis was lucky to have Cassie and Jack's Ma to help him along when he needed help. Junior, I think, will be there for him when he gets older, like in the short story.

[vedrana]

I'll agree with tpe here - it s difficult to pinpoint the exact place when he realizes that it was love.

It was love from the very beginning, but Ennis couldn't accept it easily. It become much deeper after Reunion/Motel scene, as they realized that the attraction was stronger than ever. But did Ennis get it? I don't think so! 

For me, the most probable point was the shirt scene! When Ennis was embracing their shirts, he was (maybe) embracing the idea of two of them together and he knew that it was love. That's my opinion, but still... hard to say. Ennis was a complicated character and it wasn't easy even for him to define his own feelings.

[tpe]

Going back to the original topic, do any of you think that Ennis's apology at the beginning of SNIT indicated a partial admission that (perhaps) this was not just a one shot thing after all?

[myprivatejack]

Going back to the original topic, do any of you think that Ennis's apology at the beginning of SNIT indicated a partial admission that (perhaps) this was not just a one shot thing after all?

It could be,because Ennis knew from the beginning that he was going to "give up" sooner or later.So,he felt sorry for his behaviour with Jack,denying something he wished as much as he feared...

[tpe]

It could be,because Ennis knew from the beginning that he was going to "give up" sooner or later.So,he felt sorry for his behaviour with Jack,denying something he wished as much as he feared...

Yes, I have wondered what exactly was Ennis apologizing for.  One can interpret this to mean that he was sorry for "dictating" how things were going to go from there.   And yes, perhaps he was also sorry for denying himself that which he truly desired.

[lancecowboy]

Going back to the original topic, do any of you think that Ennis's apology at the beginning of SNIT indicated a partial admission that (perhaps) this was not just a one shot thing after all?

I will have to watch the movie again. I don't recall Ennis apologizing at all. I do remember Jack kept repeating "It's okay." I thought it was because Ennis was shaking so much, as often the case during someone's first "conscious" encounter. It's part of Heath's realistic portrayal of Ennis' struggle with his own inner demons while yearning for the merging of two souls. The shaking was part of the fight, to shut out and stay behind the wall, while wanting desperately to open and embrace the friend and soulmate. Jack's repetition was meant to reassure Ennis that everything is okay. It's nobody's business but theirs.

The point of the long moment in front of the fire was meant to portray Ennis' deliberation, that this ain't just the whiskey talking. He might still think it was just two guys having fun, and not considering the consequences after getting off the mountain. The conversation by the river under the stars, after Jack proposed the cow and calf operation, was meant to clarify that as far as Ennis was concerned, "It ain't going to be no commitment. Just us two guys in the middle of nowhere having some fun."

Problem was, Ennis couldn't get no reins on his feelings, just that he liked the ride.

[vedrana]

I will have to watch the movie again. I don't recall Ennis apologizing at all. I do remember Jack kept repeating "It's okay." I thought it was because Ennis was shaking so much, as often the case during someone's first "conscious" encounter. It's part of Heath's realistic portrayal of Ennis' struggle with his own inner demons while yearning for the merging of two souls. The shaking was part of the fight, to shut out and stay behind the wall, while wanting desperately to open and embrace the friend and soulmate. Jack's repetition was meant to reassure Ennis that everything is okay. It's nobody's business but theirs.

The point of the long moment in front of the fire was meant to portray Ennis' deliberation, that this ain't just the whiskey talking. He might still think it was just two guys having fun, and not considering the consequences after getting off the mountain. The conversation by the river under the stars, after Jack proposed the cow and calf operation, was meant to clarify that as far as Ennis was concerned, "It ain't going to be no commitment. Just us two guys in the middle of nowhere having some fun."

Problem was, Ennis couldn't get no reins on his feelings, just that he liked the ride.

I am here with you Lance!

Ennis didn't apologize at all. Jack repeated 3 times "it's alright" to reassure Ennis who was about to feel love for the first time and who was trembling in front of him.
I watched this scene many times    (don't ask!  ) and the color of the voice is the same - Jack's. Ennis never opened his mouth inside the tent (hardly even when they kissed  ), so - IMO, no apology spoken up!

 

[lancecowboy]

  back loreen. SNIT is one of my favorite scenes, too. I like it better than FNIT. But better yet, is the scene at Motel Siesta, after the fireworks, so to speak.  That and Ennis thanking heavens for the reunion by the river. I watch reruns of them in my mind all the time. 

[vedrana]

back loreen. SNIT is one of my favorite scenes, too. I like it better than FNIT. But better yet, is the scene at Motel Siesta, after the fireworks, so to speak.  That and Ennis thanking heavens for the reunion by the river. I watch reruns of them in my mind all the time. 

Oh, I just noticed that I typed "treasure" instead of "reassure"... I corrected it.

I wanted to watch the whole BBM recently, but to be honest I am afraid.  Afraid to be hit deep down as months ago and when my PBS was literally killing me.  :\'( I always remember your words that watching BBM is like watching the Sun directly. You can not stand it... And now I also feel that way.

Reruns in mind? Yup! Sometimes, but for me it is 99% SNIT ... two of them ... always like that ...! 

  ... are we OT or it just feels well that way? 

[tpe]

I will have to watch the movie again. I don't recall Ennis apologizing at all. I do remember Jack kept repeating "It's okay." I thought it was because Ennis was shaking so much, as often the case during someone's first "conscious" encounter. It's part of Heath's realistic portrayal of Ennis' struggle with his own inner demons while yearning for the merging of two souls. The shaking was part of the fight, to shut out and stay behind the wall, while wanting desperately to open and embrace the friend and soulmate. Jack's repetition was meant to reassure Ennis that everything is okay. It's nobody's business but theirs.

The point of the long moment in front of the fire was meant to portray Ennis' deliberation, that this ain't just the whiskey talking. He might still think it was just two guys having fun, and not considering the consequences after getting off the mountain. The conversation by the river under the stars, after Jack proposed the cow and calf operation, was meant to clarify that as far as Ennis was concerned, "It ain't going to be no commitment. Just us two guys in the middle of nowhere having some fun."

Problem was, Ennis couldn't get no reins on his feelings, just that he liked the ride.

I am here with you Lance!

Ennis didn't apologize at all. Jack repeated 3 times "it's alright" to reassure Ennis who was about to feel love for the first time and who was trembling in front of him.
I watched this scene many times    (don't ask!  ) and the color of the voice is the same - Jack's. Ennis never opened his mouth inside the tent (hardly even when they kissed  ), so - IMO, no apology spoken up!

 

Well, to be honest, I really didn't notice the apology until members mentioned it here.  In many cases, I still don't hear it, but when I watch this scene, I think that I do hear it sometimes! 

You know, I thouight that it was significant that in SNIT, whiskey didn't play any part in Ennis's actions/deliberations.  It was a truly conscious movement on his part to get what he desired...

[vedrana]

Well, to be honest, I really didn't notice the apology until members mentioned it here.  In many cases, I still don't hear it, but when I watch this scene, I think that I do hear it sometimes! 

You know, I thouight that it was significant that in SNIT, whiskey didn't play any part in Ennis's actions/deliberations.  It was a truly conscious movement on his part to get what he desired...

Well, it was shown in that way at least... and who knows. Maybe he did have a few shots before deciding to enter. (I know that I wouldn't need any if jack would wait for me  )

[tpe]

Well, it was shown in that way at least... and who knows. Maybe he did have a few shots before deciding to enter. (I know that I wouldn't need any if jack would wait for me  )

   Well, you're right of course.  WE really can't tell.  But I would think that Ennis probably didn't want to be drunk this time around.  He wanted to experience it deliberately, and will full command of his senses/faculties -- the better to enjoy the delicious moment.

[vedrana]

  Well, you're right of course.  WE really can't tell.  But I would think that Ennis probably didn't want to be drunk this time around.  He wanted to experience it deliberately, and will full command of his senses/faculties -- the better to enjoy the delicious moment.

A little OT, but (and I maybe wrote this before - I don't know  ), there was a great joke on TV.

A teacher in the school for elders ask one student:

- You're druk, aren't you?

- Nope!

- You want me to believe that you're sober!

- Nope!

- So, what are you?

- Just right!

 

To go back to the topic, I think that Ennis was "just right" for Jack's arms... and all the rest  !

 

[tpe]

A little OT, but (and I maybe wrote this before - I don't know  ), there was a great joke on TV.

A teacher in the school for elders ask one student:

- You're druk, aren't you?

- Nope!

- You want me to believe that you're sober!

- Nope!

- So, what are you?

- Just right!

 

To go back to the topic, I think that Ennis was "just right" for Jack's arms... and all the rest  !

 

   You wicked girl!  *SPANK!*   

Well, I still somehow think that whether or not Ennis had any alcohol -- he most likely did during supper -- I think he was sober when he entered the tent.  I think that this time around, he probably didn't nead alcohol to steel his nerves...  But who knows?

[vedrana]

  You wicked girl!  *SPANK!*   

Well, I still somehow think that whether or not Ennis had any alcohol -- he most likely did during supper -- I think he was sober when he entered the tent.  I think that this time around, he probably didn't nead alcohol to steel his nerves...  But who knows?

I think that he was "just right" for the love, meaning that he was perfectly aware of the reality, whether there was some whiskey involved or not!  And that he accepted that reality by entering the tent. 

[myprivatejack]

Letting aside some wicked thoughts, I think he was aware enough of the situation,of what could happen if he entered into the tent.But let's say that whiskey was the right help he needed to give this step,that maybe being entirely sober he had lasted rather more in giving.

[tpe]

I think that he was "just right" for the love, meaning that he was perfectly aware of the reality, whether there was some whiskey involved or not!  And that he accepted that reality by entering the tent. 

Letting aside some wicked thoughts, I think he was aware enough of the situation,of what could happen if he entered into the tent.But let's say that whiskey was the right help he needed to give this step,that maybe being entirely sober he had lasted rather more in giving.

Sometimes I get this feeling that at that moment, Ennis must have thought that he was in a dream...

[vedrana]

Sometimes I get this feeling that at that moment, Ennis must have thought that he was in a dream...

But it was a dream in a way, wasn't it? So surreal, for making love for the first time, for being so enchanted and melting in man's arms.... and not in a woman's. Surely, for a man like Ennis it felt like dream.