Topic: "suppers' on the stove"

[tpe]

Think you are right,also Ennis is not used to Alma going against his wishes and with our knownledge about his temper its no wonder situation about meal getting served develops like it did in this scene.

Ennis must have been bewildered at Alma's sudden intrasigence.  On the surface, it was just about who serves the meal.  In reality, it had everything to do about Ennis's hold on Alma.  His hold was slipping...

[Toadily]

great point!  Cause it was Alma how left.  Ennis would have lived in denial forever if he could have.

[tpe]

great point!  Cause it was Alma how left.  Ennis would have lived in denial forever if he could have.

Yes, he probably wouldn't have cared that much even if they had stayed married and ceased all communication -- slept in separate beds even.  But this certainly wasn't the case with Alma.  Seeing Ennis must have bothered her a lot -- I think we can also see this in the beginning of the Thanksgiving scene, after Ennis tells his story about his rodeo stint...

[goblondie]

Ennis must have been bewildered at Alma's sudden intrasigence.  On the surface, it was just about who serves the meal.  In reality, it had everything to do about Ennis's hold on Alma.  His hold was slipping...

excatly.
And also Alma knew something about Ennis he dont know about(Alma watching Ennis kissing Jack), I think also Alma lost some of her respekt for Ennis, and Ennis as being the authority in his home.

[tpe]

excatly.
And also Alma knew something about Ennis he dont know about(Alma watching Ennis kissing Jack), I think also Alma lost some of her respekt for Ennis, and Ennis as being the authority in his home.

Yes, she had the knowledge, and this certainly affected her respect for Ennis, to be sure.  Seeing the kiss also gave her resolve that she was the wronged party.  It also must have given her courage, given that she knew she had the power to expose Ennis.

[goblondie]

Yes, she had the knowledge, and this certainly affected her respect for Ennis, to be sure.  Seeing the kiss also gave her resolve that she was the wronged party.  It also must have given her courage, given that she knew she had the power to expose Ennis.

Absolutely, it must have been easier for her to say no to Ennis now she has that knowledge, when she accepted to take the girls when Ennis came with them in the store she still considered Ennis as her faithfull husband and the  authority.

[tpe]

Absolutely, it must have been easier for her to say no to Ennis now she has that knowledge, when she accepted to take the girls when Ennis came with them in the store she still considered Ennis as her faithfull husband and the  authority.

That's the difference between the earlier scene at the store and the fight over who is serving supper.  The trust was no longer there.  Had Ennis known that Alma knew at that point, perhaps he would have understood.

[welshwitch]

  I have never seen it as my role to get under a truck or castrate the odd calf. If that's what men do and it's sexist, I'm all for sexism.

It makes me smile that Alma stands up to Ennis, goes off out leaving him to eat with the girls then when she is settled with monroe lapses back into the traditional wife-and-mother role. Not too sure what this says about women in general. Jack's mother appears to be much the same, and Lureen's but Lureen is such a contrast. The way Jack emphasises how long she's spent on the thanks giving dinner makes me think that was out-of-the-ordinary for her while I always think of Alma as cooking, washing up, cleaning, washing,ironing. Don't see Ennis as a new man.

[manhattangirl]

Alma started to feel she was the one who was wearing the proverbial "pants" in the family now.   Ennis could now deal with girls, feed, bath them and put them to bed.   She'll come home and down a couple of "buds"  and watch Starksky and Hutch.   

She struck out at Ennis the only way she could, at his manhood.   With Monroe, she could fall back in that compliant housewife role, where she's feel most comfortable, cooking, cleaning, and having babies.  This is all she really wanted. 

[tpe]

I have never seen it as my role to get under a truck or castrate the odd calf. If that's what men do and it's sexist, I'm all for sexism.

It makes me smile that Alma stands up to Ennis, goes off out leaving him to eat with the girls then when she is settled with monroe lapses back into the traditional wife-and-mother role. Not too sure what this says about women in general. Jack's mother appears to be much the same, and Lureen's but Lureen is such a contrast. The way Jack emphasises how long she's spent on the thanks giving dinner makes me think that was out-of-the-ordinary for her while I always think of Alma as cooking, washing up, cleaning, washing,ironing. Don't see Ennis as a new man.

The later Alma and Lureen are wonderful to compare and contrast.  Unlike Lureen (at least, the LUreen before Jack's death), Alma was visibly affected by her knowledge of her husband's "secret" life.   Would she have ended up like Lureen -- casually indifferent to Ennis -- had she not known?  If she had cared less of Ennis, things would have been easier.  This scene about serving supper reveals that she did care, ironically.

[tpe]

Alma started to feel she was the one who was wearing the proverbial "pants" in the family now.   Ennis could now deal with girls, feed, bath them and put them to bed.   She'll come home and down a couple of "buds"  and watch Starksky and Hutch.   

She struck out at Ennis the only way she could, at his manhood.   With Monroe, she could fall back in that compliant housewife role, where she's feel most comfortable, cooking, cleaning, and having babies.  This is all she really wanted. 

You say it wonderfully here, manhattangirl.  I think the last paragraph is so close to the heart of the matter.

[welshwitch]

It's odd that the two are so different yet both so dislikeable, IMO at least. Lureen because she's so wrapped up in money-making she can't be bothered with anyone else, even her son, and Alma because she wants to be a dependent wife and mother ( having babies not beoing my thing). Each of them is unbalanced, right at one end or the other of the spectrum - maybe that's partly why each ends up with an unsatidfactory marriage. ennis evidently resents Alma's becoming economically active though, whereas Jack doesn't seem as affected by what Lureen does so much as being hurt by the way she ignores him.

  but I wonder what would have happened if Lureen had been more loving towards Jack?

[tpe]

It's odd that the two are so different yet both so dislikeable, IMO at least. Lureen because she's so wrapped up in money-making she can't be bothered with anyone else, even her son, and Alma because she wants to be a dependent wife and mother ( having babies not beoing my thing). Each of them is unbalanced, right at one end or the other of the spectrum - maybe that's partly why each ends up with an unsatidfactory marriage. ennis evidently resents Alma's becoming economically active though, whereas Jack doesn't seem as affected by what Lureen does so much as being hurt by the way she ignores him.

  but I wonder what would have happened if Lureen had been more loving towards Jack?

For some reason, I found Lureen a bit more lieable -- maybe because he gave Jack very little trouble.  It is painful for me to see Ennis in this scene with Alma.  You can tell that even though he was very angry, he still had great restraint and self control.

[ksxks]

Interesting posts here all along the way - goin’ way back. I guess my take on the scenes inclusion was to show a strong willed Alma who’d just about had it with Ennis and which leads to the coming divorce scene as many have said. Working women were pretty common in the US in the 60s, if only in low pay jobs, cashiers at most of my local groceries were women. In the west women worked really hard on ranches and I think generally had the respect of the working class men folk for their labors – especially if they could cook well. By today’s standards this may seem silly and patronizing but at the time I think it was considered a really important integral part of the operation and not seen as a threat, as long as the women didn’t want to actually run the place.

IMO it was less a problem with Ennis that Alma worked, but in this scene in particular, she’s making her own decisions and being independent, almost a “F-you Ennis” attitude which of course being Ennis, he didn’t do well dealing with.

“Unless your serving” seems incredible in 2007, but my guess is Ennis didn’t feel it was his “job” to serve supper any more than it was Alma’s “job” to go out, get under the truck and fix the brakes or castrate some calves. Roles were just much more defined in that time and place – especially so for gay men.

Curious twist here – remember it was Ennis who was the original “Camp Tender” so cooking and serving up the meals to Jack was his “job” for a while. ‘Course he got outta’ that quick as he could. 

Jackster -- interesting you brought the above into this subject.  I don't think he got out of it as quick as he could, though.  I think he was fine with doing the cooking and cleaning up in camp for Jack, but he switched to make Jack happy, to do what Jack didn't want to be doing.  (Although in reality, what Jack said, that they both oughtta be in camp, was the real crux of the matter.) 

So with two men together, doing the cooking and serving in camp is certainly no demeaning thing, as Ennis apparently felt it was if he should have to do it at home with Alma.  Food is important out there in the woods, the necessity and comfort of it.  And on the later trips, we see them enjoying the food part of it, it seems.

kathy

[ksxks]

Alma started to feel she was the one who was wearing the proverbial "pants" in the family now.   Ennis could now deal with girls, feed, bath them and put them to bed.   She'll come home and down a couple of "buds"  and watch Starksky and Hutch.   
She struck out at Ennis the only way she could, at his manhood.   With Monroe, she could fall back in that compliant housewife role, where she's feel most comfortable, cooking, cleaning, and having babies.  This is all she really wanted. 

LOL at Starsky & Hutch!

I think, maybe, that it was Monroe who wanted to have children with Alma, not that Alma wanted to go back to having babies and being the "housewife."  She might have gone on to some kind of "career."  Her girls were older, and if she had wanted to, oh, open a dry-cleaning business or something, Monroe would have supported her.  He was out in the world in a place where he saw all kinds, and respected women working.  So I don't know if she actually wanted more kids.  But if Monroe did, and made enough so she didn't have to work, she obviously was fine with that.

kathy

[jackster]

So with two men together, doing the cooking and serving in camp is certainly no demeaning thing, as Ennis apparently felt it was if he should have to do it at home with Alma.  Food is important out there in the woods, the necessity and comfort of it.  And on the later trips, we see them enjoying the food part of it, it seems.

kathy

Maybe OT here: Sorry kathy, didn’t mean to imply that it was demeaning, just that by comparison camp tender was probably not considered as valuable or as important position (by men) as one who tends the livestock and keeps an eye out for predators. The ability to ride, shoot, and handle stock I think was more highly prized by ranchers. I’ve understood this to be the reason Aguirre chose Jack – in his second year on the mountain - over newcomer Ennis for the position. IMO Ennis understood this subtle distinction and was happy to switch when the opportunity arose – in rewatching this “switch offer” scene I can’t see anything that tells me Ennis is doing it as a favor to Jack, even Jack acts a little sheepish when he say’s “won’t get much sleep” as Ennis rides off, but maybe I’m missing something? 

When Aguirre later shows up unexpectedly and spies on the boys then watches Ennis on the mountain with his binocs I figured he was surprised to find Jack in camp and Ennis with the sheep. This may have contributed somewhat to his low opinion of Jack (“what kind of MAN would switch those positions?”) that then lead to Jack’s brusque dismissal next summer. Just some thoughts . . . .

[ksxks]

Maybe OT here: Sorry kathy, didn’t mean to imply that it was demeaning, just that by comparison camp tender was probably not considered as valuable or as important position (by men) as one who tends the livestock and keeps an eye out for predators. The ability to ride, shoot, and handle stock I think was more highly prized by ranchers. I’ve understood this to be the reason Aguirre chose Jack – in his second year on the mountain - over newcomer Ennis for the position. IMO Ennis understood this subtle distinction and was happy to switch when the opportunity arose – in rewatching this “switch offer” scene I can’t see anything that tells me Ennis is doing it as a favor to Jack, even Jack acts a little sheepish when he say’s “won’t get much sleep” as Ennis rides off, but maybe I’m missing something? 

When Aguirre later shows up unexpectedly and spies on the boys then watches Ennis on the mountain with his binocs I figured he was surprised to find Jack in camp and Ennis with the sheep. This may have contributed somewhat to his low opinion of Jack (“what kind of MAN would switch those positions?”) that then lead to Jack’s brusque dismissal next summer. Just some thoughts . . . .

Most interesting, jackster.  I can see everything you're saying.  I didn't look at it that way because I'm not a man, not an unconditional yang.  I would say, you go ahead out there and slay the dragons, hon, I'll keep the home fires burning!  (It's funny I said that, because that isn't my real life -- I'm out with the dragons and keeping a happy home.) 

But of course Aguirre giving the more experienced man the herder job is giving him the more responsible position.  And I never tuned into Aguirre's obviously noticing that they switched until you said it just now.

As to Ennis doing the cooking, I do think in his home that he wouldn't touch anything in the kitchen if he could help it.  But of course he would want to cook good for Jack.  And no, it isn't necessarily seen in the scene, that he was switching positions to do something for Jack -- that's just how I see it, that there are a lot of things he did for Jack that weren't so obvious.  He couldn't maybe say things about how he was feeling (well, neither of them really were at that point); and while Jack may have been the more "nurturing" of the two, Ennis could certainly do things that would let Jack know he was appreciative of the companionship where none was expected...

Anyway, I just love this, that we can continue to get new insight after looking at this so closely for so long.  Thank you for the interesting post.

kathy

[manhattangirl]

The switching of jobs by Jack and Ennis,  was almost to me, subtle statement of roles these two men assume from then on. 
They were for the first time being more of themselves together.   Ennis personality drew him to being the herder, than camp tender,  "I wouldn't mind being out here",  after seeing Jack's dislike for being with the sheep, he didn't mind it, it was what he used to or enjoyed the aloneness of it being out there.

Jack's nature was more of caretaker,  he may not have been very good at it,  it apparently was good enough for Ennis,  he eats the food Jack prepares, he opens up to him,   they become closer.   The roles now established, they become more drawn to each other. 

Ennis took this with him, into his marriage to Alma, He continue to work with stock, he comes home,  but it wasn't to Jack, but to Alma.   I wonder how this must have cause him some pang of painful memories,  until he sees Jack again. 

I'm sorry this way off topic. 

[jackster]

-- I'm out with the dragons and keeping a happy home.

She can shoot and cook? Damn!! You got Jack beat by a mile!!

     

[tpe]

IN any case, I think we all agree that Alma normally wouldn't have minded cooking the meals and serving them to Ennis and the girls.  The scene when she refuses to do so seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to undermine Ennis's authority as head of the house.  True, she promised to work the extra shift, but Alma before the reunion would probably have relented and given in to Ennis.

[manhattangirl]

IN any case, I think we all agree that Alma normally wouldn't have minded cooking the meals and serving them to Ennis and the girls.  The scene when she refuses to do so seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to undermine Ennis's authority as head of the house.  True, she promised to work the extra shift, but Alma before the reunion would probably have relented and given in to Ennis.

Whether she promised or not she wanted out of there.   To be closer to Monroe, to give Ennis a taste of what it's like to be left alone with the girls and the job of caring for them,  she'd had it, enough was enough, and she was going to place where she felt needed and wanted, and that was with Monroe and the store.  Some women find an oasis of peace, in what the others might find a mundane place.

[tpe]

Whether she promised or not she wanted out of there.   To be closer to Monroe, to give Ennis a taste of what it's like to be left alone with the girls and the job of caring for them,  she'd had it, enough was enough, and she was going to place where she felt needed and wanted, and that was with Monroe and the store.  Some women find an oasis of peace, in what the others might find a mundane place.

manhattangirl, so do you share my view that at this stage, Alma was probably having an affair with Monroe, or else setting things up to have it this way?

I know a lot of people may disagree and there is no real solid evidence.  But I just somehow have the feeling that there was more to the two of them at this point.

[goblondie]

think you both manhattangirl and tpe are right. Its a very normal reaction Alma shows,when we find out our partner sees another person that we get angry, upset and rebellish,we mostly want to save whats left of our relationship,but also we are looking for another partner ourself just in case we should be left alone.

[manhattangirl]

think you both manhattangirl and tpe are right. Its a very normal reaction Alma shows,when we find out our partner sees another person that we get angry, upset and rebellish,we mostly want to save whats left of our relationship,but also we are looking for another partner ourself just in case we should be left alone.

Great point!

And isn't that what Jack did,  he went to Mexico, he started seeing Randall,  his reasons may have not been the same as Alma's, but he did it nonetheless. 

[welshwitch]

When you start looking for other possibilities, isn't that at the very least a sign that there is something wrong with what you have? While I don't see Alma as a scarlet woman, I'm sure she has been attracted to Monroe long before she leaves Ennis andis at least aware of his possibilities. in the same way, while I think Jack goes to Mexico out of sheer frustration and maybe physical need, I think the Randall contact has about it the air of another possible different future, involving neither lureen nor Ennis. 

Bt cooking the meal and leaving it, Alma is showing that she is still fulfilling some aspects of the housewife's role but removing herself from the social ritual of a family meal.

I suppose what I'm saying is that all of them, except Lureen, are probably at a point where they are ready to change their lives - Alma goes for what she wants, and Jack is willing to, but Ennis's fear is the stumbling-block

[aintfoolin]

 The kids perhaps played a part in her continuing some semblance of a * duty* to her family at the time . The girls were still young then...but what Alma knew was suerly working on her concience. Ennis is playing games and she's tired of pretending that every thing is the same as it was. His demands for her to *carry on* as usual was probably beyond her comphehension at this point + after all Monroe was waiting in the wings, an opportunity to move on with her life took priority and she took it. She no longer was beholding to Ennis's demands. Besides Ennis was being an a-hole acting like HE was above serving dinner! Perhaps this was his way of proving he still wore the pants in the family but who's kidding who? She not only had to work to pick up his slack, but she'd had enough and had seen enough to make her very resentful of him. MO

[tpe]

think you both manhattangirl and tpe are right. Its a very normal reaction Alma shows,when we find out our partner sees another person that we get angry, upset and rebellish,we mostly want to save whats left of our relationship,but also we are looking for another partner ourself just in case we should be left alone.

Yes, I don't think we can blame her too much if she opened herself up to a relationship with Monroe even before the divorce.  She certainly didn't feel obligated to shut out possibilities for Ennis's sake.

[tpe]

When you start looking for other possibilities, isn't that at the very least a sign that there is something wrong with what you have? While I don't see Alma as a scarlet woman, I'm sure she has been attracted to Monroe long before she leaves Ennis andis at least aware of his possibilities. in the same way, while I think Jack goes to Mexico out of sheer frustration and maybe physical need, I think the Randall contact has about it the air of another possible different future, involving neither lureen nor Ennis. 

Bt cooking the meal and leaving it, Alma is showing that she is still fulfilling some aspects of the housewife's role but removing herself from the social ritual of a family meal.

I suppose what I'm saying is that all of them, except Lureen, are probably at a point where they are ready to change their lives - Alma goes for what she wants, and Jack is willing to, but Ennis's fear is the stumbling-block

Had Ennis and Alma divorced at that time, I wonder if things would have been better for Alma later on...  Would Monroe have married Alma earlier had she divoreced sooner?  To me, it seems like he was aalways waiting in the wings -- he must have known that there was some trouble, no?  Perhaps Monroe even knew?  Could Alma had confided something to him?

I don't know if she was attracted to Monroe at this stage, but she must have noticed that Monroe took a great liking for her.

At this stage, she was perhaps not ready to divorce Ennis outright.  She certainly didn't like to out him, it seems, but I think she was concerend for the girls, in particular. 

[goblondie]

I think Monroe has been there in the background all along liking Alma. But I think most of us have tried to been attracted by or liked another person when we have a partner, but a relationship would not have been in sight cause we were happy with our partner. I think it was when things went wrong between Alma and Ennis Monroe came in sight as a possible new partner for Alma,but I think he was in the background all the time,we saw that in the scene in the store where he was so understanding towards Alma.

[tpe]

I think Monroe has been there in the background all along liking Alma. But I think most of us have tried to been attracted by or liked another person when we have a partner, but a relationship would not have been in sight cause we were happy with our partner. I think it was when things went wrong between Alma and Ennis Monroe came in sight as a possible new partner for Alma,but I think he was in the background all the time,we saw that in the scene in the store where he was so understanding towards Alma.

Yes, Monroe is very much the unseen character in this scene about "supper's on the stove".   I got the impression that it was because of him that Alma was taking the extra shift.