Topic: "suppers' on the stove"

[ksxks]

IN any case, I think we all agree that Alma normally wouldn't have minded cooking the meals and serving them to Ennis and the girls.  The scene when she refuses to do so seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to undermine Ennis's authority as head of the house.  True, she promised to work the extra shift, but Alma before the reunion would probably have relented and given in to Ennis.

And before the reunion, Alma wouldn't even have been working.  And probably would have had more kids, as witnessed in the scene in bed where she worries about "protection." 

kathy

[ksxks]

Whether she promised or not she wanted out of there.   To be closer to Monroe, to give Ennis a taste of what it's like to be left alone with the girls and the job of caring for them,  she'd had it, enough was enough, and she was going to place where she felt needed and wanted, and that was with Monroe and the store.  Some women find an oasis of peace, in what the others might find a mundane place.

I agree -- she would have enjoyed her job, both because of Monroe and because of pride in doing a good job out in the world.  And she would have socialized with customers, and had her own money.  Poor Ennis didn't have a chance once she found a place for herself, a glimpse of self-sufficiency.

kathy

[tpe]

And before the reunion, Alma wouldn't even have been working.  And probably would have had more kids, as witnessed in the scene in bed where she worries about "protection." 

kathy

She may have started working abit before the reunion to supplement the family income, but I agree that she would not have dreamed of becoming the primary breadwinner.  She was mindful of Ennis's pride -- witness her giving in at the grocery store scene prior to the reunion.

And yes, I agree that she probably wouldn't have questioned their having more kids.  Her later objection was that Ennis on his own would not be able to support another child.

I think this scene is the first time we see her going against Ennis's wishes.  She no longer gave him primary say.

[Toadily]

you know the other thing is the world was changing, it was the 70s now and women had made ground.  So they might also have been showing that, Alma standing up to Ennis.  Her needs are important too. 

[lamusica]

When I was a kid, and up until the 70's, I think it was expected that Mom would cook the food and put it on the table and call the family when it was ready.  I know it was that way in my house as I was growing up.  If Mom hadn't been home, we wouldn't have eaten a meal -- just snacked around.  I think it was like that in Ennis's mind, too.  He expected Alma to cook it, serve it, and clean it up afterwards -- all her jobs.  When she ran off to go to work at the grocer's, she was neglecting her family, in Ennis's mind.  Maybe he forgot she had to work because he wasn't bringing in enough to support them all without her help!

[welshwitch]

I'm sure Ennis wouldn't want to admit that they needed Alma's money - and there was at one time the attitude that a man whose wife had to go out to work was inadequate as he couldn't support his family. Given Ennis's terror of being looked at oddly, watched by the locals, suspected if he was seen with Jack, he might have wanted to appear as macho as possible and Alma's newly-found assertiveness might have worried him.

[ksxks]

She may have started working abit before the reunion to supplement the family income, but I agree that she would not have dreamed of becoming the primary breadwinner.  She was mindful of Ennis's pride -- witness her giving in at the grocery store scene prior to the reunion.

And yes, I agree that she probably wouldn't have questioned their having more kids.  Her later objection was that Ennis on his own would not be able to support another child.

I think this scene is the first time we see her going against Ennis's wishes.  She no longer gave him primary say.

Thanks, Thomas -- I always forget that, that the scene of Alma at the grocery store is before the reunion.  I'm always thinking she didn't start working until after that.

That is interesting, because the girls were still young.  (Not that it was so uncommon for the wife to work then, but more common in the 70's than the 60's.)  (And there are those that think that scene in the grocery store when Ennis comes in with the kids was put in not in the order it was intended to be in the film.  You know, that it was really because Jack was waiting, not the story Ennis told.)  Anyway, it being before the reunion that she went to work, then it wasn't only Ennis's low-end jobs so he could be free for Jack that kept them down.

I agree that scene in bed is interesting, and how Alma puts her foot down (puts her nightgown down) with Ennis.  That might be the first we see that, but I bet it isn't the first time at all that she started asserting herself.

kathy

[ksxks]

That is totally true.  Anything that would have put his "manliness" into question was a danger to him, as he saw it.  In reality, that era started a lot of men having to think of things in a different way.  If the women didn't need them only to be the breadwinner, then they didn't have total say over everything, etc., etc.

kathy

[manhattangirl]

It's interesting,  when the woman in this story are finding their own independence, such as Alma defying Ennis, working, making choices in her life.  Lureen running a business, even Cassie wanting to go to nursing school.   These woman are looking outside the traditional role.  They may have various reasons why but they made changes.

Ennis and Jack couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't know how to move on, or grow in their relationship, or even the way they were themselves living their lives.   How could they?  When neither of them couldn't even come to terms of who and what they were.   Two men who in love with each other.   Even as late as 1983, they still couldn't come to terms.   

The woman emerge stronger by choice, need, or circumstance.   But fear of change and of their love for each other kept Jack and Ennis stuck in their limited world.   

[tpe]

I'm sure Ennis wouldn't want to admit that they needed Alma's money - and there was at one time the attitude that a man whose wife had to go out to work was inadequate as he couldn't support his family. Given Ennis's terror of being looked at oddly, watched by the locals, suspected if he was seen with Jack, he might have wanted to appear as macho as possible and Alma's newly-found assertiveness might have worried him.

It was a mater of pride for him, as it was in this scene.  Still, I had wondered why his pride didn't push him to try his hand at other work.  Did he really feel that incompetent?  Or was he just being stubborn?

[tpe]

Thanks, Thomas -- I always forget that, that the scene of Alma at the grocery store is before the reunion.  I'm always thinking she didn't start working until after that.

That is interesting, because the girls were still young.  (Not that it was so uncommon for the wife to work then, but more common in the 70's than the 60's.)  (And there are those that think that scene in the grocery store when Ennis comes in with the kids was put in not in the order it was intended to be in the film.  You know, that it was really because Jack was waiting, not the story Ennis told.)  Anyway, it being before the reunion that she went to work, then it wasn't only Ennis's low-end jobs so he could be free for Jack that kept them down.

I agree that scene in bed is interesting, and how Alma puts her foot down (puts her nightgown down) with Ennis.  That might be the first we see that, but I bet it isn't the first time at all that she started asserting herself.

kathy

Yes, I do remember the discussion about the original placing of the grocery scene.

What is particularly interesting about the "supper's on the stove" scene is that we are not entirely sure what Ennis's objection really was.  I mean: if Alma had stayed a bit to serve supper, would he have no objection if she went to the extra shift after that?

Did he resent the fact that Alma was working?  Did he think that it did not reflect well on his ability to earn enough for his family? 

[tpe]

The woman emerge stronger by choice, need, or circumstance.   But fear of change and of their love for each other kept Jack and Ennis stuck in their limited world.   

Jack sertainly wanted things to change, and it would seem that he at least did some crucial part in the family business -- knowing how to operate all the new models, even the ones the elder Newsome couldn't drive.

I think it was more of a partnership between Jack and Lureen (and less of a marriage).  The problem in the case of Ennis is that it became an unequal partnership, with Alma really doing more of her fair share, if we take taking care of the kids and the house into account.  The "supper's on the stove" scene showed the weakness of his position, when push comes to shove.

[manhattangirl]

I was thinking more of the women's ability to adjust to their circumstance, whereas Jack may have wanted to change, but Ennis couldn't, this kept them back.  Jack wouldn't leave Ennis behind, he stuck with him, showing the patience and the love he always had for him.  Ennis's fear of losing what he mistakenly thought was his masculinity is part of his whole coming to grips with what he thought was the "queer" part of him he tried to suppress.  

Jack's money was  really Newsome's money, bottomline it wasn't his, Jack was a "field worker".   I think you can say that in '63 neither of them had anything, and in '83 you can still say it,  but the possibilities of what they could have together, something purely all their own was the sticking point in their relationship, the "sweet life".  They were 19 years in '63 and still were emotionally in '83. 

[tpe]

I was thinking more of the women's ability to adjust to their circumstance, whereas Jack may have wanted to change, but Ennis couldn't, this kept them back.  Jack wouldn't leave Ennis behind, he stuck with him, showing the patience and the love he always had for him.  Ennis's fear of losing what he mistakenly thought was his masculinity is part of his whole coming to grips with what he thought was the "queer" part of him he tried to suppress.  

Jack's money was  really Newsome's money, bottomline it wasn't his, Jack was a "field worker".   I think you can say that in '63 neither of them had anything, and in '83 you can still say it,  but the possibilities of what they could have together, something purely all their own was the sticking point in their relationship, the "sweet life".  They were 19 years in '63 and still were emotionally in '83. 

I don't know.  I think Alma adjusted because she recognized that there was nothing there for her.  Jack persisted because he had the assurance that Ennis truly loved him -- imperfectly perhaps, but in a way that was deeper and much more sincere than Ennis's love for Alma.   That kept him hoping.  Alma had no such assurance; hence, she felt free to improvise.  What else could she lose?  She can only gain.

[ksxks]

It's interesting,  when the woman in this story are finding their own independence, such as Alma defying Ennis, working, making choices in her life.  Lureen running a business, even Cassie wanting to go to nursing school.   These woman are looking outside the traditional role.  They may have various reasons why but they made changes.

Ennis and Jack couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't know how to move on, or grow in their relationship, or even the way they were themselves living their lives.   How could they?  When neither of them couldn't even come to terms of who and what they were.   Two men who in love with each other.   Even as late as 1983, they still couldn't come to terms.   

The woman emerge stronger by choice, need, or circumstance.   But fear of change and of their love for each other kept Jack and Ennis stuck in their limited world.   

And that is what is so sad about being gay, or in the earlier days anyway...and I speak from experience.  You end up finding some way to live that is "safe" and stay there.  There are choices you can't or won't make because you don't fit into the societal norms.  Unlike now (and it's of course still not perfect), these two men did not have the world at their fingertips.  Jack may have been more open than Ennis, but he still lived in a small world.

I do find it curious, because in the early 80's they could have started to see what was going on all over the country with the gay community.  But they were mature men by then, and maybe that was part of the problem.

Getting OT here, though.  It's true what manhattangirl said, and interesting, that the women in this movie (except Jack's mother, of course) end up stronger, expand their lives -- somewhat, anyway.

kathy

[welshwitch]

It's generational, though, isn't it? Alma, Lureen and Cassie adapt or change, but neither of the two mothers do - in fact Lureen's mother is as dominated by LD as Jack's mother is by JT. And in fact Alma reverts to a mother role once she's settled with Monroe and has an electric carving knife - wow! Cassie's going to do a nursing course - ie going into another traditional female caring role. Lureen's the interesting exception - she starts off in the rodeo and moves into the male business world, and even into the money role, whereas Jack is out there showing off the machines to potential buyers.She never really seems to take any interest in any sort of trad female activities - I can't see Lureen stuffing a mushroom.

[aintfoolin]

These were strong women, they had to be to be with these two men. They communicated strongly their desires and needs from the start.  Something Jack and Ennis could not bring themselves to do.  Even Alma found her way out of a loveless marriage to come out better for herself though I feel she suffered abuse at some point while married to Ennis, but she survived and moved on.

 Never saw Jack questioning Lureen's independence in her business dealings , but began to feel left out once the baby was born although his description of their relationship later on  concerning her work ethic, and how it affected their marriage was not flattering to her.

 Cassie and Ennis would'nt have workrd out either, with her being a nusrse would mean long hours away from home. She thought she knew Ennis, and alluded to marrying him. Only alot of lonely nights awaited this relationship . A disaster waiting to happen in my opinion.I can't see Cassie accepting  the * flip over * in bed  so readily as Alma did either. Her inquisitive mind  and possesive manner would drive Ennis bonkers with Jack still on his mind. Just my thoughts.

[Toadily]

you know more and more I realize without Ang Lee's thoughtful attention to small detail this short story might not have translate into a movie so readily.  We would not all be here if anyone, and I literally mean anyone else directed it.  It needed a director who is like a poet on screen, not many of those. 

[manhattangirl]

These were strong women, they had to be to be with these two men. They communicated strongly their desires and needs from the start.  Something Jack and Ennis could not bring themselves to do.  Even Alma found her way out of a loveless marriage to come out better for herself though I feel she suffered abuse at some point while married to Ennis, but she survived and moved on.

 Never saw Jack questioning Lureen's independence in her business dealings , but began to feel left out once the baby was born although his description of their relationship later on  concerning her work ethic, and how it affected their marriage was not flattering to her.

 Cassie and Ennis would'nt have workrd out either, with her being a nusrse would mean long hours away from home. She thought she knew Ennis, and alluded to marrying him. Only alot of lonely nights awaited this relationship . A disaster waiting to happen in my opinion.I can't see Cassie accepting  the * flip over * in bed  so readily as Alma did either. Her inquisitive mind  and possesive manner would drive Ennis bonkers with Jack still on his mind. Just my thoughts.

aintfoolin got it.   

[tpe]

you know more and more I realize without Ang Lee's thoughtful attention to small detail this short story might not have translate into a movie so readily.  We would not all be here if anyone, and I literally mean anyone else directed it.  It needed a director who is like a poet on screen, not many of those. 

In this particular scene, Ang Lee left so many things unsaid, and yet it had to be that way.   And what is unsaid lead to questions: why was Alma no longer giving in to Ennis, whether there something going on with Monroe, and what Ennis thought of all this.  On the surface, it was a simple family squabble, and yet any viewer would know (by the placement and timing of the scene) how it relates carefully with the narrative of the film.