Topic: "suppers' on the stove"

[Toadily]

What do you thnk that scene means?  Ennis is just being a jerk wanting Alma to stay
and "serve dinner" but why? 

[Patriot1]

What do you thnk that scene means?  Ennis is just being a jerk wanting Alma to stay
and "serve dinner" but why? 

You know Toadily, I have often wondered what that scene was all about also. I finally resigned myself to this, Ang Lee wanted us to know Alma was sick of Ennis and was developing a relationship with Monroe. I couldn't see any other reason for it. I mean I know he is a macho guy but surely he can serve dinner so his wife can go to work to help with the bills.

[Toadily]

Hey yeah good point.  Plus it does show a disconnect in their relationship.

[aintfoolin]

Yeah, not to much "domestic tranquility" in the Del Mar household  in this scene. By this time Alma's known about "Jack Nasty" for some time now . She's gotta be feelin pretty resentful towards Ennis at this point and she's slowly shutting down to him. She can't bring herself to say why to him, But what she's seen and the pretense and lies are working on her. She is human.  P.S. and yes Monroe seems to be waiting in the wings.

[Toadily]

yeah Monroe must have known on some level. 

[welshwitch]

Ennis also seems here the picture of a man who feels humiliated because his wife is going out to work to add to the family income. Don't know whether he sees Monroe as a threat at this point, but he may well suspect that Alma's financial part-independence is making her independent of him to some degree. He may asl see her as a mother who should be at home with her children - this is still the sixties when all these attitudes were more prevalent. And maybe he feels less of a man because his wife is less of a stereoptypical stay-at-home housewife and mother, when Ennis is the last to want any questions raised as to his being a macho man.

[Toadily]

really good point, we forget the era few women worked. My Dad never even let on he knew how to cook until we were like in our teens.  He was actually a much better cook than my Mom but you just didn't do these things in the 60's early 70's.  YEah and Ennis may feel like a failure cause he was blowing it by not trying to make a better living for them.

[welshwitch]

And the whole question of why he won't take a permanent job and make more money brings up the subjecct of his fishing trips and Jack, which is something he wants to avoid. I think he takes Alma's decision to work as implied criticism of him - he may also resent not having her around to do things for him, though earlier on he gave the impression of being quite hands-on with the children.

[Toadily]

Yeah in the short story, the implication is that he takes jobs he can leave.  And no doubt he knew on some level he could make more and maybe have Alma at home. 

[welshwitch]

And it's evident that alma's doing the things she thinks she must, like looking after the children and cooking, but giving the impression  at least that as soon as possible she wants to get away because the job mattrs to her. there's also that comment from Alma that she promised to take the extra shift - and the implication that she doesn't break promises, which may affect Ennis too.

[Jennis]

I think it's there to show us the breakdown of the marriage leading up to the divorce.

Jennis.x

[welshwitch]

I agree. From the honeymoon sequence where Alma comes over as girlish and in love through the increasing drudgery of routine to the impact of seeing the reunion embrace thenthis scene, where Alma clearly doesn't care what Ennis says or what he wants but is just doing her own thing - there's very little if anything left between them.

[ksxks]

I love all these comments about what Ennis was going through, especially considering the times, with his wife working and his not doing well to support the family -- which was what men were supposed to do then and that's that; and also his ultra-sensitivity about any hints against his "masculinity."  Also the scene when they're about to have sex when Alma says that she'd have his kids if he'd support them.  He must feel completely and totally a f**k up...while watching her gain some independence...and yet he can't help it -- he must configure his life to be able to be with Jack.

My point being, this was always the only scene where I dislike Ennis.  I mean, throughout the whole movie as far as his marriage, the way he treated Alma, I was still always on his side, so to speak, except for the one comment in this scene, which would raise my hackles every time:  "We ain't eating unless you put it on the table."  My god, she made the dinner before going out to make them money.  You put it on the table, Mr. Chauvinist Pig!

But hackles notwithstanding, that didn't make me feel any less for Ennis's whole situation, but still, I hate that line.  However, now, after reading this page, I can get off my soapbox and really consider the whole slew of messed-up emotions he was fighting.

kathy

[welshwitch]

It's odd, isn't it that in the ss Jack says he's never been able to control his life whereas in the movie it's so often Ennis who can't control his temper, his emotions ( he surely doesn't want to fall in  love with Jack) his wife, as here. The "no-one's eating it" is male chauvinist all right, but I think it's also a desperate attempt to assert himslef as the man of the house, in  control, which of course he isn't. And it emphasizes his vulnerability - if he threatens Alma, she can always throw in his face his frequent absences withhis friend - she could also, though he doesn't know it, tell him she saw the reunion kiss. Ennis is in no position to make threats.

[tpe]

What do you thnk that scene means?  Ennis is just being a jerk wanting Alma to stay
and "serve dinner" but why? 

You know Toadily, I have often wondered what that scene was all about also. I finally resigned myself to this, Ang Lee wanted us to know Alma was sick of Ennis and was developing a relationship with Monroe. I couldn't see any other reason for it. I mean I know he is a macho guy but surely he can serve dinner so his wife can go to work to help with the bills.

Yes, I thought the same thing.

[tpe]

Ennis also seems here the picture of a man who feels humiliated because his wife is going out to work to add to the family income. Don't know whether he sees Monroe as a threat at this point, but he may well suspect that Alma's financial part-independence is making her independent of him to some degree. He may asl see her as a mother who should be at home with her children - this is still the sixties when all these attitudes were more prevalent. And maybe he feels less of a man because his wife is less of a stereoptypical stay-at-home housewife and mother, when Ennis is the last to want any questions raised as to his being a macho man.

I also agree.  I guess Ennis expected her to fill in the traditional role of a housewife and mother when in fact she could have been the primary breadwinner.

[tpe]

I think it's there to show us the breakdown of the marriage leading up to the divorce.

Jennis.x

To be sure, yes.

[tpe]

I love all these comments about what Ennis was going through, especially considering the times, with his wife working and his not doing well to support the family -- which was what men were supposed to do then and that's that; and also his ultra-sensitivity about any hints against his "masculinity."  Also the scene when they're about to have sex when Alma says that she'd have his kids if he'd support them.  He must feel completely and totally a f**k up...while watching her gain some independence...and yet he can't help it -- he must configure his life to be able to be with Jack.

My point being, this was always the only scene where I dislike Ennis.  I mean, throughout the whole movie as far as his marriage, the way he treated Alma, I was still always on his side, so to speak, except for the one comment in this scene, which would raise my hackles every time:  "We ain't eating unless you put it on the table."  My god, she made the dinner before going out to make them money.  You put it on the table, Mr. Chauvinist Pig!

But hackles notwithstanding, that didn't make me feel any less for Ennis's whole situation, but still, I hate that line.  However, now, after reading this page, I can get off my soapbox and really consider the whole slew of messed-up emotions he was fighting.

kathy

I also didn't like that line. kathy.  Although the unpleasantness of the scene is balanced by his love for his children, even when he was in a rage.  A lot of people in such a situation would have been hard pressed to act the way he did with the children.

The interesting thing about the scene (and this ties in with what Jennis had said) is that the children were quite nonchalant about it -- as if they had witnessed similar scenes before and had learned to ignore it.   Very telling...

[welshwitch]

But Enn is is quite careful about how he's seen in public - look at the way he looks over his shoulder before pushing Jack out of sight to kiss him, and how he watches the pickup driving past in the scene after the divorce. He generally behaves well to his children and I think wouldn't want to be seen doing anything else. Anyway, it's Alma he's angry with - Ennis appears to love his daughters.

[tpe]

But Enn is is quite careful about how he's seen in public - look at the way he looks over his shoulder before pushing Jack out of sight to kiss him, and how he watches the pickup driving past in the scene after the divorce. He generally behaves well to his children and I think wouldn't want to be seen doing anything else. Anyway, it's Alma he's angry with - Ennis appears to love his daughters.

Yes, which is why I think Ennis didn't object to serving his daughters dinner per se.  The issue was something else.

[ksxks]

It's odd, isn't it that in the ss Jack says he's never been able to control his life whereas in the movie it's so often Ennis who can't control his temper, his emotions ( he surely doesn't want to fall in  love with Jack) his wife, as here. The "no-one's eating it" is male chauvinist all right, but I think it's also a desperate attempt to assert himslef as the man of the house, in  control, which of course he isn't. And it emphasizes his vulnerability - if he threatens Alma, she can always throw in his face his frequent absences withhis friend - she could also, though he doesn't know it, tell him she saw the reunion kiss. Ennis is in no position to make threats.

You're so right, ww, and now I think I finally have a handle on this for myself.  You said, "...a desperate attempt to assert himself as the man of the house."  That's exactly what was going on right then.  Ennis has no real problem with cooking and serving I'm sure, but because of the very shaky dynamics between him and Alma, because of the shaky dynamics within himself, he doesn't have the "place" he feels he is expected to have within his marriage and in the perceptions of the community and society.  Also, probably just prior to what we see of this scene, there must have been a "last straw" thing happening, besides the general deterioration of their marriage.  They could have been fighting about something else, not just that Alma took the extra shift -- not just her regular shift, but an extra one (and Monroe surely does figure into the picture at this point). So here, he was lashing out, that's all.  (And I loved Alma's strong and fast walking away, leaving him impotent there.  The only time I said to myself to Alma:  you go girl!)

Then, as others have just said here, the quite wonderful scene of him with the girls.  Yes it's true that, unfortunately, they are used to this; but also they must have enough trust, because they don't run away and hide -- they must know they are loved despite the fighting that mom and dad do.

I just love these discussions, and this is a prime example.  This was something that really bothered me, to the extent that I could only see it on the surface and not truly understand it -- and now I do understand it, because of you other people, for whom the line in question perhaps doesn't push your buttons like it does mine, and you can share your insight into this, and I can hear what you have to say and come to an understanding...  This is good.   Group kiss. 

kathy

[lamusica]

I think it's there to show us the breakdown of the marriage leading up to the divorce.

Jennis.x

I agree, Jennis.  I don't think it has too much to do with Alma's "decision" to go to work.  She HAD to go to work if they were to keep up with their bills and the general costs of living.  Ennis's refusal/inability to get a better, more permanent job, made her working a necessity -- not a choice.  Maybe Ennis couldn't have done any better -- I don't know - I don't think the argument was over his hurt pride in having a wife who went to work.  I think it was a scene put into the movie just to show the erosion that was taking place slowly but surely, so we would be prepared for the divorce scene and welcome it.

[welshwitch]

If you want to look at it more abstractly . we see all the aspects of the breakdown too - sexual, social, economic.....

[goblondie]

I think the scene is there to show us the downgoing  spiral in Ennis and Almas marriage, now Alma says stop to Ennis,she dont want to be the nice wife anymore taking care of husband and family,her job is as important as Ennis. Earlier in movie we saw scene where Ennis came in to the store with the girls to let her take care of them,cause he had to go to work,and Alma took care of them and called her sister.Her own need came in the background. Now she is not that kind housewife anymore. Perhaps she felt that Ennis took advantage of her kindness.
Also both the scenes in the store and the scene with the supper is there to show us the state of their marriage and introducing us to Monroe, her new husband.

[welshwitch]

You might start on a "woman's lib meets Wyoming cowboy" if it weren't for the fact that Alma is obviously happy to be Monroe's little stay-at-home wife. I'm sure, though, that Ennis resents the fact that their life is dependent on her income as well as his, that he can't provide adequately for his own family. Jack has always had more money, and seems to have no problem with the fact that it comes from his wife, but Ennis clearly does have a problem with Alma's income/occupation. but Jack's image of himself doesn't depend on his seeing himself as a macho character and Ennis's does.

[Toadily]

Yeah it's interesting as a character study, while Jack is more apt to want to change things, he also is more able to go with the flow in his life.

[goblondie]

You might start on a "woman's lib meets Wyoming cowboy" if it weren't for the fact that Alma is obviously happy to be Monroe's little stay-at-home wife. I'm sure, though, that Ennis resents the fact that their life is dependent on her income as well as his, that he can't provide adequately for his own family. Jack has always had more money, and seems to have no problem with the fact that it comes from his wife, but Ennis clearly does have a problem with Alma's income/occupation. but Jack's image of himself doesn't depend on his seeing himself as a macho character and Ennis's does.

Sure Ennis has a problem with Almas income/occupation, in a kind of way it shows he cant support a family with a homegoing wife.Dont know much about that time,but guess it was still more common that wives stayed at home at the children and the husband supported the family. Important for a mans selfimage.
PS.sorry for my bad english, dont find it so easy to express myself always,hope You understand.

[jackster]

Interesting posts here all along the way - goin’ way back. I guess my take on the scenes inclusion was to show a strong willed Alma who’d just about had it with Ennis and which leads to the coming divorce scene as many have said. Working women were pretty common in the US in the 60s, if only in low pay jobs, cashiers at most of my local groceries were women. In the west women worked really hard on ranches and I think generally had the respect of the working class men folk for their labors – especially if they could cook well. By today’s standards this may seem silly and patronizing but at the time I think it was considered a really important integral part of the operation and not seen as a threat, as long as the women didn’t want to actually run the place.

IMO it was less a problem with Ennis that Alma worked, but in this scene in particular, she’s making her own decisions and being independent, almost a “F-you Ennis” attitude which of course being Ennis, he didn’t do well dealing with.

“Unless your serving” seems incredible in 2007, but my guess is Ennis didn’t feel it was his “job” to serve supper any more than it was Alma’s “job” to go out, get under the truck and fix the brakes or castrate some calves. Roles were just much more defined in that time and place – especially so for gay men.

Curious twist here – remember it was Ennis who was the original “Camp Tender” so cooking and serving up the meals to Jack was his “job” for a while. ‘Course he got outta’ that quick as he could. 

[tpe]

I think it was also Alma deliberately going against Ennis's wishes that must have irked him.  For me, it was not just a sign of independence, but a flaunting of it -- a dare, if you will.

There is a saying that it is best for someone seemingly in a position of authority to not insist on his/her way -- if it would mean a loss of face in the case that his/her way is inevitably not followed.

I think that this was precisely the case with Ennis in this scene.  Alma pretty much dared him to stop her, and by his not being able to, he lost face.

[goblondie]

I think it was also Alma deliberately going against Ennis's wishes that must have irked him.  For me, it was not just a sign of independence, but a flaunting of it -- a dare, if you will.

There is a saying that it is best for someone seemingly in a position of authority to not insist on his/her way -- if it would mean a loss of face in the case that his/her way is inevitably not followed.

I think that this was precisely the case with Ennis in this scene.  Alma pretty much dared him to stop her, and by his not being able to, he lost face.

Think you are right,also Ennis is not used to Alma going against his wishes and with our knownledge about his temper its no wonder situation about meal getting served develops like it did in this scene.