Topic: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion

[tpe]

Although Jack's sexuality has been part of the wider discussion contained in previous threads, I don't think there has been a thread that dealt exclusively with his sexual identity.  This thread was created in response to a post by lamusica in the thread dealing with whether or not Ennis was gay:

    Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's.  Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis.  What is Jack's fear?

I do not expect everyone to come to universal agreement on this topic.  Feel free to post your opinion on th subject and comment on other members' viewpoints.  Only: let us all remain civil and respectful of our differences, as much as we respect the correspondences.

 

[NoReins]

    Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's.  Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis.  What is Jack's fear?

I don't think Jack was afraid as such. I think when he denies that he's queer to Ennis, he is holding back, knowing that if he tells Ennis the truth then there's every chance that Ennis will stop their physical relationship from continuing. I think he's already pretty sure about what he wants and needs, but he knows that Ennis isn't. Ennis states catagorically that he's not queer so intead of risking everything, Jack agrees with him, letting Ennis think that this really is a one shot thing, between two very good friends, with nothing more to it than that.

Once back in the real world, Jack tries to pick up other men (Jimbo the rodeo clown) but fails and so, when Lureen comes on to him, he allows it to happen, wanting some sort of physical connection with another person, even if it's not what he really needs (there is, of course, the added attraction of LD Newsome's money - but that's a whole 'nother discussion!)

After he reunites with Ennis, I'm guessing that he probably had no real physical relationship with Lureen - this, I think, is shown when he only gives her a perfunctory kiss when he's leaving to go off on a trip with Ennis. If there was something more in their relationship, it surely would have shown when he was leaving for a week?

And then, of course, we know that he starts to become more sexually active with men after Ennis' divorce - by which time I think he has realised that Ennis isn't going to change, so there's no reason to hide his sexuality any more - no more risk of frightening Ennis off, because Ennis is already frightened enough.

Of course, he even ends up admitting it to Ennis....which, I think, is the final confirmation that he's always been "that way".

Just my 2p worth, mind....

[jesseanne21]

Is Jack gay? Bi? 

All I remember is the sad, hurt, confused look on Jack's face when after FNIT, Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack answers "Me neither."   The look on his face says he's lying and he knows it. And he's sad that he has to lie to be with Ennis. Just my opinion  :\'(

[tpe]

    Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's.  Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis.  What is Jack's fear?

I don't think Jack was afraid as such. I think when he denies that he's queer to Ennis, he is holding back, knowing that if he tells Ennis the truth then there's every chance that Ennis will stop their physical relationship from continuing. I think he's already pretty sure about what he wants and needs, but he knows that Ennis isn't. Ennis states catagorically that he's not queer so intead of risking everything, Jack agrees with him, letting Ennis think that this really is a one shot thing, between two very good friends, with nothing more to it than that.

Once back in the real world, Jack tries to pick up other men (Jimbo the rodeo clown) but fails and so, when Lureen comes on to him, he allows it to happen, wanting some sort of physical connection with another person, even if it's not what he really needs (there is, of course, the added attraction of LD Newsome's money - but that's a whole 'nother discussion!)

After he reunites with Ennis, I'm guessing that he probably had no real physical relationship with Lureen - this, I think, is shown when he only gives her a perfunctory kiss when he's leaving to go off on a trip with Ennis. If there was something more in their relationship, it surely would have shown when he was leaving for a week?

And then, of course, we know that he starts to become more sexually active with men after Ennis' divorce - by which time I think he has realised that Ennis isn't going to change, so there's no reason to hide his sexuality any more - no more risk of frightening Ennis off, because Ennis is already frightened enough.

Of course, he even ends up admitting it to Ennis....which, I think, is the final confirmation that he's always been "that way".

Just my 2p worth, mind....

"You've been to Mexico, Jack Twist? ..."

"Yes, I've been to Mexico.  Is there a f*cking problem?"

The subtext is quite clear to both of them.  It is an admission.

[tpe]

Is Jack gay? Bi? 

All I remember is the sad, hurt, confused look on Jack's face when after FNIT, Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack answers "Me neither."   The look on his face says he's lying and he knows it. And he's sad that he has to lie to be with Ennis. Just my opinion  :\'(

Thanks jesseanne21.  To me, this is certainly one possibility.  I do feel that he is hiding something about himself here to hold on to Ennis.  But I also see the other argument about their notion of "queerness".  I think there is a grain of truth in each of the two.

 

[frances]

    Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's.  Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis.  What is Jack's fear?

I don't think Jack was afraid as such. I think when he denies that he's queer to Ennis, he is holding back, knowing that if he tells Ennis the truth then there's every chance that Ennis will stop their physical relationship from continuing. I think he's already pretty sure about what he wants and needs, but he knows that Ennis isn't. Ennis states catagorically that he's not queer so intead of risking everything, Jack agrees with him, letting Ennis think that this really is a one shot thing, between two very good friends, with nothing more to it than that.

I absolutely agree.
Jack is often scared of frightening Ennis off and picks his words carefully with him.

He seems like he's the one who accepts who he is and who he loves and just wants to be able to live openly with Ennis even if he pretends to be straight to the world

[tpe]

As other people have said, Jack probably was willing to play along with anything if only Ennis would not get scared off.  "It's alright.  It's alright" in the SNIT: he was certainly trying to reassure a confused Ennis without having to remind him of what their actions would imply to other people.

[stacp]

I definitely think by the time Ennis came along, Jack was aware of his physical attraction toward men.  I believe Ang even told Jake that Jack had had experiences with other men before Ennis.  When he agrees with Ennis that he isn't queer, I'm not sure if Jack has really come to full terms with it, but you can tell by the look on his face and the squirming that he does that he knows it isn't the whole truth.   I agree with No Reins that he hid his sexuality from Ennis and played along with the "male posturing" in order to soothe Ennis' low startle point.  But, IMO, the movie seems to portray Jack as gay, trying to pick up Jimbo, hiring a male prostitute, and starting the fling with Randall.  But that's just my 2 cents.   

[lamusica]

While I agree Jack would say anything to keep Ennis with him, I think that so long as he still responded to women (the girls in the stands, then later on, to Lureen), he wasn't convinced that he was gay.  Remember, in the 60's, the gay issue had not been dissected and probed to the degree it is today.  Then, you either were or you weren't gay.  Since he still sexually responded to women, he didn't fully accept that he was gay, IMO.
    (On the issue of pretending, I think we all pretend somewhat to ourselves and to those we love.  No one ever completely knows another perons,, including oneself, IMHO.)

[welshwitch]

I agree with the above posts; though I tend to think that Jack isn't as concerned with labelling himself as we are. He's attracted to Ennis; he goes after him and Ennis responds. Jimbo doesn't, Randall (presumably, but we're only guessing here) does.  Jack must be aware that showing openly what he is would be dangerous; I wonder what he'd be like if he were a young man now? It's clearly easier now to think, if not talk, about being gay and realise that you are than it would have been in the sixties. If you're afraid and need to hide and deny what you are, that has a distorting effect in all sorts of ways.

However. that's a very English perspective; I think things have changed less in the US than they have here.

[Gyllenhaalic]

All I remember is the sad, hurt, confused look on Jack's face when after FNIT, Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack answers "Me neither."   The look on his face says he's lying and he knows it. And he's sad that he has to lie to be with Ennis. Just my opinion  :\'(

Yeah :\'( To me, I always thought that was one of the moments where we, as the audience, discovered Jack really was gay. He has this look on his face... he knows he's gay, but maybe he hasn't fully accepted it yet? Or these feelings for Ennis are feelings he's never had for a man before (Or anyone for that matter) and it's hitting him like a ton of bricks.

 It's like he's trying to make Ennis feel better when he says "Me either".... he's not gay either, don't worry, this can be a one shot thing... (Even though Jack doesn't really want it to be that way)

I don't know, just my thoughts!

[welshwitch]

If that moment is when Jack realises he's falling in love, and after SNIT it certainly looks that way, then perhaps he wants to believe it's a one-shot thing as Ennis says. When you fall in love, at first it's impossible to envisage the feeling ever changing or ever dying or ever being re-discovered with someone else. You want it to be unique and tend to thnk it is unique to you. Perhaps Jack is more concerned with what he feels than whether he feels it for a woman or a man.

[lamusica]

You know, most of us haven't seen 19 years of age for a LOOOOOONG time.  We have to remember that everything is new to these two guys.  Even if they had had sex somewhere before BBM, the whole sexual part of their lives was just beginning.  They could not have explored their own sexuality too deeply. While this may have been Ennis' first and only homosexual experience,  it wasn't Jack's.  We can be pretty sure of that.  However, did they label themselves as of this time?  I sincerely doubt it.  Their sexuality wasn't fully formed in their minds at this young age.  By the final scene of the two men together twenty years later, we can safely make some conjectures.  We now know that Jack has been pretty promiscuous with other men -- surely he's gay?  And we know Ennis has not been with other men.  Does the fact that he was with Jack so completely make him gay?  That is what still presents some ambiguity to me.  I don't really need answers to those questions, but I find them interesting to think about in light of the ss and film.

[FulOfSadness]

Jack was a gay man before he met Ennis, he redlined the whole thing, he made the 1st move, he was experienced, i could tell. IDK about Ennis, he seemed to be turned gay by Jack odd i know, but thats the kind of essence I get from him.

[Rosie]

All I remember is the sad, hurt, confused look on Jack's face when after FNIT, Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack answers "Me neither."   The look on his face says he's lying and he knows it. And he's sad that he has to lie to be with Ennis. Just my opinion  :'(

Yeah :'( To me, I always thought that was one of the moments where we, as the audience, discovered Jack really was gay. He has this look on his face... he knows he's gay, but maybe he hasn't fully accepted it yet? Or these feelings for Ennis are feelings he's never had for a man before (Or anyone for that matter) and it's hitting him like a ton of bricks.

 It's like he's trying to make Ennis feel better when he says "Me either".... he's not gay either, don't worry, this can be a one shot thing... (Even though Jack doesn't really want it to be that way)

I don't know, just my thoughts!

I agree with you!  I've always thought that Ennis wasn't his first sexual encounter with another man, and Jack knows that he likes men, but with Ennis I think he realizes that he has other feelings too. Falling in Love. So maybe he is realizing that he may well be gay when he is saying 'me neither'.
Whenever we see Jack make the first move in the movie or make a choice about what he wants by himself, it is always a man. Lureen came on to him. In the last scene of them together Jack tells Ennis that he don't hardly never get something he needs - not something he wants. That to me more or less says it.
Jack is obviously capable of sleeping with a woman, he did father Bobby, but I think that in his ideal world he would rather be with a man.

[stacp]

I agree with you!  I've always thought that Ennis wasn't his first sexual encounter with another man, and Jack knows that he likes men, but with Ennis I think he realizes that he has other feelings too. Falling in Love. So maybe he is realizing that he may well be gay when he is saying 'me neither'.
Whenever we see Jack make the first move in the movie or make a choice about what he wants by himself, it is always a man. Lureen came on to him. In the last scene of them together Jack tells Ennis that he don't hardly never get something he needs - not something he wants. That to me more or less says it.
Jack is obviously capable of sleeping with a woman, he did father Bobby, but I think that in his ideal world he would rather be with a man.

Excellent point, Rosie.  Jack does tell Ennis he "needs" to be with another man when he says he needs something he don't hardly never gets.  Jack, to me, is saying this is something that's a part of him, part of his being, and part of his essence.  A fairly strong indication that his preference is toward men.   I hope this is not OT, but it seems to be relevant in this discussion about Jack's sexuality:  I read the People Magazine article about N'Sync's Lance Bass coming out.   In it, Lance says how he had been in relationships with women, even loved women, but realized that he would never be satisfied in a relationship with a woman. Lance also says he knew his entire life he was gay but hid it.  I imagine Jack would feel the same way, if asked.  He knew he was gay his entire life, tried to be with women (even loved Lureen?), but he knew he couldn't be satisfied with women.

[tpe]

I agree with you!  I've always thought that Ennis wasn't his first sexual encounter with another man, and Jack knows that he likes men, but with Ennis I think he realizes that he has other feelings too. Falling in Love. So maybe he is realizing that he may well be gay when he is saying 'me neither'.
Whenever we see Jack make the first move in the movie or make a choice about what he wants by himself, it is always a man. Lureen came on to him. In the last scene of them together Jack tells Ennis that he don't hardly never get something he needs - not something he wants. That to me more or less says it.
Jack is obviously capable of sleeping with a woman, he did father Bobby, but I think that in his ideal world he would rather be with a man.

Excellent point, Rosie.  Jack does tell Ennis he "needs" to be with another man when he says he needs something he don't hardly never gets.  Jack, to me, is saying this is something that's a part of him, part of his being, and part of his essence.  A fairly strong indication that his preference is toward men.   I hope this is not OT, but it seems to be relevant in this discussion about Jack's sexuality:  I read the People Magazine article about N'Sync's Lance Bass coming out.   In it, Lance says how he had been in relationships with women, even loved women, but realized that he would never be satisfied in a relationship with a woman. Lance also says he knew his entire life he was gay but hid it.  I imagine Jack would feel the same way, if asked.  He knew he was gay his entire life, tried to be with women (even loved Lureen?), but he knew he couldn't be satisfied with women.

The  Lance Bass digression is a good example how, even now, gay people deal with a lot of conflicting and deep-seated ambiguities within themselves.  I think in the case of Jack Twist, the same dynamic is at play.

[welshwitch]

At the risk of being shot down in flames here, I think it's much the same for straight people too. It's quite possible to love someone and to feel  sexually attracted to someone else - admittedly this isn't the same sort of conflict but it's real. That's like what Jack finds, IMo; he can be attracted to or find satisfaction with another man, and even with Lureen, but it's only Ennis he loves so it's only with him that he can find satisfaction in a physical,emotional and (wrong word but I can't think of the right one) intellectual sense. When your heart and your head and you body agree, then you've found the one, as he does in Ennis.

[stacp]

At the risk of being shot down in flames here, I think it's much the same for straight people too. It's quite possible to love someone and to feel  sexually attracted to someone else - admittedly this isn't the same sort of conflict but it's real. That's like what Jack finds, IMo; he can be attracted to or find satisfaction with another man, and even with Lureen, but it's only Ennis he loves so it's only with him that he can find satisfaction in a physical,emotional and (wrong word but I can't think of the right one) intellectual sense. When your heart and your head and you body agree, then you've found the one, as he does in Ennis.

Oh, I totally agree, Welshwitch.  You can love many, but you only have one soulmate IMO.  That was Ennis to Jack and Jack to Ennis.   

[FlwrChild]

Wonderful posts everyone! I agree with Rosie and stacp about Jack's reference to 'something he needs - not something he wants' being meaningful. And I think in the scene sitting on the mountain, they're both lying; it's just that Jack knows he's lying and Ennis doesn't (yet).

[monicita]

tpe, thanks for opening the thread. I was away for the weekend, full day of work yesterday. And all of you are so much further on, than I am.  Oh well, such is life. And my two cents on the issue is: Jack was gay in a sense that Ennis was not, because he knew about his urges, his wishes, his love and his sexuality. He was a more "aware" person and definitely more aware of being "different". The big question is: would he ever have been capable of talking about it openly? With anybody? Knowing about oneself and facing that knowledge are not always the same thing...

monicita

[tpe]

tpe, thanks for opening the thread. I was away for the weekend, full day of work yesterday. And all of you are so much further on, than I am.  Oh well, such is life. And my two cents on the issue is: Jack was gay in a sense that Ennis was not, because he knew about his urges, his wishes, his love and his sexuality. He was a more "aware" person and definitely more aware of being "different". The big question is: would he ever have been capable of talking about it openly? With anybody? Knowing about oneself and facing that knowledge are not always the same thing...

monicita

You are welcome, monicita.  I had wondered that myself in the context of Randall.  He must have discussed things openly with Randall if they had decided to live together back in Lightning Flat.  It would seem that Randall did not have the same hang-ups as Ennis, and I suspect that Jack must have lowered his guard in this situation.  In the deleted scene alluded to in other threads, it would seem that they also took greater risks, considering that they were caught kissing by the mechanics.

I am not surprised at the diversity of opinions surrounding Ennis.  With Jack, I also see that there is no universal agreement in this subject either.  Personally, I have said in the Ennis thread that I do believe personally that both of them were gay.  For me, they just differed in a matter of acceptance and openness to oneself.  But your overall opinion is just as valid.  I think we do agree on the essentials of Jack's sexuality, even though the same is not true with Ennis.

[welshwitch]

Yes, I think given time ( which he wasn't) Jack would have been mor open with himself and the world in general. You just have to look at some of the stories on this forum and elsewhere to see that people of Jack's generation have been able to come out now that society, or parts of it at least, are less hostile. Jack knoew who and what he was, knew that he both wanted and needed Ennis, knew that he was gay and would, I think, have adopted the word as it came into use.

[tpe]

Yes, I think given time ( which he wasn't) Jack would have been mor open with himself and the world in general. You just have to look at some of the stories on this forum and elsewhere to see that people of Jack's generation have been able to come out now that society, or parts of it at least, are less hostile. Jack knoew who and what he was, knew that he both wanted and needed Ennis, knew that he was gay and would, I think, have adopted the word as it came into use.

In a certain sense, Jack's openness to his sexuality was stunted by his love for Ennis.  I am sure if weighed heavily in Jack's mind: that Ennis would accept him if that essential part of his nature remained unsaid.  "Yes, I've been to Mexico.  Is there a f*cking problem?" is a watershed, in a very real sense.  He had reached the end of his rope.

[stacp]

Yes, I think given time ( which he wasn't) Jack would have been mor open with himself and the world in general. You just have to look at some of the stories on this forum and elsewhere to see that people of Jack's generation have been able to come out now that society, or parts of it at least, are less hostile. Jack knoew who and what he was, knew that he both wanted and needed Ennis, knew that he was gay and would, I think, have adopted the word as it came into use.

In a certain sense, Jack's openness to his sexuality was stunted by his love for Ennis.  I am sure if weighed heavily in Jack's mind: that Ennis would accept him if that essential part of his nature remained unsaid.  "Yes, I've been to Mexico.  Is there a f*cking problem?" is a watershed, in a very real sense.  He had reached the end of his rope.

Now that I think about it, the "Hell, yes I've been to Mexico.  Is there a f*cking problem"  line, isn't that Jack's declaration (finally) to Ennis that "Yep, I'm gay."  Ennis knows there's no hiding it now; he tells Jack that Mexico is for "boys like you," hence, men who are gay.   BTW, did anyone just want Jack to say to Ennis at this point:  "Boys like me?  What the hell does that make you?  You f**k me every chance you get and have for 20 years."  I just thought that Jack should've called him on this. 

OT:  TPE, did you say that in that deleted scene with Randall, Jack & the mechanics that Randall and Jack were kissing?  Say it ain't so---I thought they were just hugging. 

[tpe]

Yes, I think given time ( which he wasn't) Jack would have been mor open with himself and the world in general. You just have to look at some of the stories on this forum and elsewhere to see that people of Jack's generation have been able to come out now that society, or parts of it at least, are less hostile. Jack knoew who and what he was, knew that he both wanted and needed Ennis, knew that he was gay and would, I think, have adopted the word as it came into use.

In a certain sense, Jack's openness to his sexuality was stunted by his love for Ennis.  I am sure if weighed heavily in Jack's mind: that Ennis would accept him if that essential part of his nature remained unsaid.  "Yes, I've been to Mexico.  Is there a f*cking problem?" is a watershed, in a very real sense.  He had reached the end of his rope.

Now that I think about it, the "Hell, yes I've been to Mexico.  Is there a f*cking problem"  line, isn't that Jack's declaration (finally) to Ennis that "Yep, I'm gay."  Ennis knows there's no hiding it now; he tells Jack that Mexico is for "boys like you," hence, men who are gay.   BTW, did anyone just want Jack to say to Ennis at this point:  "Boys like me?  What the hell does that make you?  You f**k me every chance you get and have for 20 years."  I just thought that Jack should've called him on this. 

OT:  TPE, did you say that in that deleted scene with Randall, Jack & the mechanics that Randall and Jack were kissing?  Say it ain't so---I thought they were just hugging. 

stacp, sorry, I do think they were supposed to be hugging, not kissing.  My mistake. 

I do think that the line about going to Mexico was indeed an admission of his sexuality.  And I do think Ennis understood.

[welshwitch]

Ennis provoked it by the "boys like you" phrase. I'm sure the derogatory use of "boy" was common among those who supported segregation and tried to demean blacks on every occasion. I assumed Ennis was using it in the same way, and that's why Jack replied as he did, in effect saying, "Yes, that's what I am if that's what you want to call me." But even at that point he never says that that's what Ennis must be as well, though it would be natural, specially when in a rage, to add, "And so are you, so f**k off with your insults."  JAck has a huge internal barrier he's constructed that lets him in some way accept Ennis's view that he, Ennis, isn't "queer" and so prevents him from throwing Ennis's taunts back at him.

But that's love as well - you want the world to be as the one you love wants it to be because above all else you want their happiness.

At this point you get into whether either or both or neither was selfish/loved the other more, etc.

[CherryCake]

If this is a discussion of Jack's sexuallity, I would like to know when or if someone's sexuality --even a fictional characters's-- ever not be a topic of discussion... :\'( :\'(
Does it really matter or does caring about who someone is attracted to really help us as a people?
What if the tire iron wielders didn't discuss nor care about Jack's sexuality, would that make for a less interesting story?
A better question might be... why is sexuality still a topic of discussion (outside of the two people involved or course!) and what can we do to get over it??

[Patriot1]

If this is a discussion of Jack's sexuallity, I would like to know when or if someone's sexuality --even a fictional characters's-- ever not be a topic of discussion... :'( :'(
Does it really matter or does caring about who someone is attracted really help us as a people?
What if the tire iron wielders didn't discuss no care about Jack's sexuality, would that make for a less interesting story?
A better question might be... why is sexuality still a topic of discussion (outside of the two people involved or course!) and what can we do to get over it??

I tend to agree with you CherryCake. What does a person's sexual orientation matter? If someone tells me they love me, they treat me with love and respect, why do I care if they are Straight, Bi or gay?

As for the movie, does it matter what the two boys were? They loved each other, that is all that matters. The two boys could have been straight and discovered something new in their lives. Problem is we live by lables and dictionary definitions. We don't care as much that they loved each other as we care about putting a lable on them.

The thought of having sex with a woman is revolting to me. The thought of having sex with some men is a turn on to me. What does a label matter? The fact is, I love just as millions of others do. Should I wear a pink triangle to say I love men?

[monicita]

Hi there, Patriot and Cherry Cake,

it seems to me that the big issue is exactly that: Some people were forced to wear pink triangles, just for being gay. And in a sense, I think that as long as people are being hounded, killed, treated badly because of their sexuality, there is good reason to discuss all aspects of being gay. And one of the reasons this movie is so intense and so important is because Ennis and Jack are gay. In a way, the movie itself is talking about their sexuality. Sexuality, of course, is a very narrow term for something that encompasses so much more. I share your anxiety that people might be labeled, their lives narrowed down to just their sexuality. We should make sure, that we never do that here on this site (and I do think it is one of the qualities of Ennisjack to be anything but narrowminded and simplistic).

monicita