Author Topic: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion  (Read 95745 times)

Offline rane99

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #60 on: Aug 05, 2006, 11:05 PM »
Discussing issues and ideas is one thing, and, that, I never intended to question... of course not.  In fact, it should be encouraged and rightly so.  But the whole 'is he gay, is he not?'  like so often happens with celebrities, which, in somewhat weird way, Jack is, doesn't seem productive.. can even be sometimes downright vicious and petty.  Jack even summed it up pretty nicely I think : "Ain't nobodys business but ours.'  and I think we all agree with that, right?

one of my favorites quotes:

"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people."
    Eleanor Roosevelt (1884 - 1962)


please know that I am in no way calling anyone in here 'small minds'  The love,wisdom,  encouragement, strength and insights I have found from people on here warms my heart everyday and gives hope of a better human kind.   That was just one of my favorite quotes. Actually I think we could all live together in a giant tent.  That is, if stacp and noreins would quiet down, goin' on about Ennis and Jack's reunion kiss and all...  ;D ;D ;D

Thanks-Cherrycake


Thanks Cheerycake.

The problem that invariably invades every discussion like this is that it intrinsically involves people.  Jack's sexuality is, of course, a fictitious sexuality, which means that discussing whether or not he is gay necessarily means discussing what each of us think what constitutes gayness. 

Real people of course use labels all the time as reference points to more complex ideas.  The depth in which a label is imbued depends on the individual.  Simple minds imbue a label with simplistic back-or-white concepts.  Thoughtful people imbue labels with thoughtful insights into a whole world of ideas that every human concept embodies.

Hence, the designation of labels is never going to be avoided so long as human beings exist and communicate via speech, signs, and symbols.

What is a label?

What is a symbol?

A label/symbol can be a caricature, if the mind so wills it.

Mercifully, human nature invariably thirsts for greater meaning.  We are never content to accept life at face-value.  We continue to ask questions.  We care not, in the final analysis, whether some get answered or not.

NICE POST CHERRY...  using Jack's own words to go against what many want to discuss! wow!
Hmmmm.  This Topic is named Jack's sexuality!

 *o) TPE, I'm sorry, but your post made no sense. why quote Cherry if you go off on your own tangent?  Not to attack, but I kinda expected more from you.




« Last Edit: Aug 05, 2006, 11:12 PM by rane99 »
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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #61 on: Aug 06, 2006, 10:04 AM »
Ah nice to be back on line after two very busy weeks,. This is an interesting topic,Jack's sexuallity. Most folks are hoping to find that one person who completes their life wether they are gay or srraight IMO. I happen to feel Jack Twist was gay. He recognized it in many ways. The attraction to men obvious. Did Jack label himslf? I dont't think so He just went with what felt right to him. Lureen served a purpose for em and I believed he loved her at some level but Ennis is his true love. true in the sense that their was an understanding there with another man . A man who stuggled with his own sexual feelings twords Jack himself. Through Ennis's stuggle Jack validates his own sexuality. Does this make sense to anyone?
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #62 on: Aug 06, 2006, 12:08 PM »
I think the events on the mountain, but much more those of the reunion, clarify for him what he is and what he wants. Even before that ( the scene in the bar) he's clearly aware that it's a man he wants; after the reunion it's Ennis he wants, but in the end when Ennis is so obdurate he eventually acknowledges his sex drive has to be re-directed.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #63 on: Aug 07, 2006, 07:17 AM »

Hence, the designation of labels is never going to be avoided so long as human beings exist and communicate via speech, signs, and symbols.


Thomas. how can you say such a thing? Of course labels can be avoided. I showed you that in my example of your boss introducing a new employee to you. In my first example he avoided labeling you completely. Why? Because it was not relevant to the introduction.

Jack's and Ennis' sexuality is not relevant to the movie. I will repeat the question; if Jack and Ennis were straight, would the movie have changed? If Jack and Ennis were gay, would it have changed the movie? If one was gay and one was straight, would it have changed the movie? The movie wasn't about who was gay and who was straight. The movie was about two young men who unexpectedly fall in love.

Labels must be avoided at all costs.

You and I have known each other for 2 years. We work together. We have been out socially together. We have talked about gay things together.

One day you and a friend are downtown shopping. Here I come down the street toward you. I stop to say hello. You introduce me to your friend. Do you say George I would like you to meet my gay friend Bill?  Of course not. While we are talking on the street you realize that I just might be interested in dating Bill and I am doing everything in my power to make you aware of it without coming right out and saying it. We part. You tell Bill you think I was interested in him. He asks, is he gay? Do you say, Yes, I have known him for two years now. Or do you say, Well, I don't really know. We have never been to bed together. The second reply avoids the label and is the only true answer you can give. By giving the second answer you are leaving it up to Bill and I to label ourselves to each other if we wish to.  Bill and I meet and after some time we decide to share a house together.

Five years after we move in you are at work and you have to tell Betty, a co-employee, that you have to leave early because you have to buy an anniversary present for a party you are going to tonight. Betty asks whose anniversary. You say your friends George and Bill. Betty asks Are they gay? What answer can you give? What answer do you give? Well, the only true answer you can give is to say, I don't know. All you know is we are best friends and have been sharing a house together for five years today and that we are having a party. Have you ever see us in bed? No. Once again you have avoided the label.

We have become so accustomed to labeling everything and everyone that it seems like labeling can not be avoided, but it can. All we can say for sure are the facts that we know personally. And even if Bill or I come to you and tell you of our bedroom activities, you have no first hand knowledge of them so you should, and can, avoid using hearsay to label us.

But, we as humans love to tell the juiciest gossip and probably will never avoid labels completely, but we should try. Labels can hurt people.

So what are the facts of this movie as regards Jack Twist? Jack Twist loved Ennis del Mar. What are we going to do now Jack asks in the motel. We can get a little cow and calf operation together. And sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it. These show us that Jack loved Ennis. Do they show that Jack is gay? No they do not. These two men formed a special and deep bond together. Just because Jack liked to receive anal intercourse does not make him gay. We all know straight men who love the sensation of anal intercourse and that does not make them gay.

What is the most that can be said of Jack Twist's sexuality? Well, his best friend was Ennis del Mar, they had a special and deep friendship and they both denied being gay. Other than that, I don't know nor do I care what  Jack's sexuality is. It is not relevant to the movie.

Thanks Patriot1.  We shall differ on the subject of labels, which is alright.

As for myself, personally, I never shy away from introducing myself and my friends as gay if the context is appropriate. 

I am proud of the label. 



Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #64 on: Aug 07, 2006, 07:18 AM »
[ *o) TPE, I'm sorry, but your post made no sense. why quote Cherry if you go off on your own tangent?  Not to attack, but I kinda expected more from you.

This is your opinion, rane99 .  It makes perfect sense to me.

People invariably hear what they like to hear.  People invariably see what they like to see. 

The challenge is to go beyond that. 

« Last Edit: Aug 07, 2006, 07:27 AM by tpe »

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #65 on: Aug 07, 2006, 10:14 AM »
This has been an interesting discussion! I'm so glad to hear so many thoughts and insights from everyone. I have my own opinions on the subject of Jack's sexuality within the story. But I just wanted to touch on the issue of the thread for a moment. I do think that discussing Jack's sexuality is different from speculating on the status of real-life figures. Because it's more about understanding the story and its characters. Kind of like talking about Moby Dick and analyzing why Ahab needed so desperately to destroy the whale. So I hope we can keep it within that same context. I like that you all want to maintain the integrity and good taste of our discussions. It's what makes the forum such a nice place.  :)
Quoted from tpe on Aug 5th:
"Hence, the designation of labels is never going to be avoided so long as human beings exist and communicate via speech, signs, and symbols."
I think this hits it right on the head. Labels - or simply words, if you will - are the way we communicate. Can't help ourselves.
Also from tpe:
"Mercifully, human nature invariably thirsts for greater meaning. We are never content to accept life at face-value. We continue to ask questions. We care not, in the final analysis, whether some get answered or not."
I like this, because it says to me that we are constantly striving to better ourselves. And I think the community that we have built here is based on a shared compassion and desire to better understand our fellow human beings. So I think the discussion is directly relevant to our BBM experience. And I think it fits beautifully with the Eleanor Roosevelt quote for the same reason. Sorry for being long-winded. Thanks for listening. :)
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Offline JT

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #66 on: Aug 16, 2006, 01:37 PM »
I think Jack is gay period.  By that, I meant that Jack is attracted to men.

To me, the word "gay" is not an offensive label if used in a proper context.  By that, I meant using it to describe a person who's attracted to someone of their own gender and if that person doesn't mind.  Now, if you use the word "gay" to describe a feminine male or someone whom you assume is gay, that is offensive.  It's also offensive to me when people use that word to describe something negative (ex., "This boring song is so gay.").  Yuck! 

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #67 on: Aug 16, 2006, 04:01 PM »
Words have no intrinsic value - rather like coins or notes really. What matters is the significance or value put on them by those who use them. You can turn almost anything into an insult by your tone of voice or facial expression or body language. "Gay" isn't pejorative unles the user intends it to be so.

Offline Patriot1

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #68 on: Aug 16, 2006, 04:32 PM »

Words have no intrinsic value - rather like coins or notes really. What matters is the significance or value put on them by those who use them. You can turn almost anything into an insult by your tone of voice or facial expression or body language. "Gay" isn't pejorative unles the user intends it to be so.


Yup, I agree with you Welshwitch.  It totally depends on how a word or phrase is used.  But you know, I can't help but wonder if you really believe your own words here.

I often refer to myself as a faggot or queer in a post and I can almost see you all cringing when you read them. I do know you all avoid (like the plague) using them in response or quoting them. Surely you do not think i am using them in a pejorative way. Any word or phrase that means I like men is ok with me and I usually say, "Yup, that's me."

However, when I sense the person using the word or phrase is using it in a pejorative way, I love to say, "Yup, that's me. But you don't have anything to worry about." in a tone to indicate, yup, I like men and that leaves you out.  I don't think there is anything a redneck hates more than having his masculinity put into question.   :8 :8



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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #69 on: Aug 16, 2006, 04:47 PM »
I don't need to believe or disbelieve what I said. It just happens to be factually true. As for "faggot", it tends in England at least to have humorous overtones, while "queer" sounds dated and seems to have lost some of its homosexual connotations as "gay" has assumed them.It always irritates me when the word comes up in poetry and some stupid kid giggles, but langiuage change and semantic instability irritate me generally. However, there's nothing I can do about them - the Academie Francaise try and look at the lack of success they have.

There 's the same kind of problem with blacks. Having been raised not to call them "niggers" or any of the other terms  blacks found insulting, I was taken aback to find the word used happily by white southerners when we werei in the US. I then encountered at home a group of young blacks who addressed each other consistenlty as "nigger". When I said rather crossly, "What would you think if I called you niggers?" they said brightly, "Oh, we wouldn't mind because you like us."  In other words, it's the intention behond the words, the attitude of the speaker, not the words themselves, which matter.

You can describe yourself ( and Jack) in whatever terms you choose to use; I would be inclined to argue only over the interpretation of the nature of Jack, who's a fictional character and therefore open to interpretation.

Offline Patriot1

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #70 on: Aug 16, 2006, 04:57 PM »

Hence, the designation of labels is never going to be avoided so long as human beings exist and communicate via speech, signs, and symbols.


Thomas. how can you say such a thing? Of course labels can be avoided. I showed you that in my example of your boss introducing a new employee to you. In my first example he avoided labeling you completely. Why? Because it was not relevant to the introduction.

Jack's and Ennis' sexuality is not relevant to the movie. I will repeat the question; if Jack and Ennis were straight, would the movie have changed? If Jack and Ennis were gay, would it have changed the movie? If one was gay and one was straight, would it have changed the movie? The movie wasn't about who was gay and who was straight. The movie was about two young men who unexpectedly fall in love.

Labels must be avoided at all costs.

You and I have known each other for 2 years. We work together. We have been out socially together. We have talked about gay things together.

One day you and a friend are downtown shopping. Here I come down the street toward you. I stop to say hello. You introduce me to your friend. Do you say George I would like you to meet my gay friend Bill?  Of course not. While we are talking on the street you realize that I just might be interested in dating Bill and I am doing everything in my power to make you aware of it without coming right out and saying it. We part. You tell Bill you think I was interested in him. He asks, is he gay? Do you say, Yes, I have known him for two years now. Or do you say, Well, I don't really know. We have never been to bed together. The second reply avoids the label and is the only true answer you can give. By giving the second answer you are leaving it up to Bill and I to label ourselves to each other if we wish to.  Bill and I meet and after some time we decide to share a house together.

Five years after we move in you are at work and you have to tell Betty, a co-employee, that you have to leave early because you have to buy an anniversary present for a party you are going to tonight. Betty asks whose anniversary. You say your friends George and Bill. Betty asks Are they gay? What answer can you give? What answer do you give? Well, the only true answer you can give is to say, I don't know. All you know is we are best friends and have been sharing a house together for five years today and that we are having a party. Have you ever see us in bed? No. Once again you have avoided the label.

We have become so accustomed to labeling everything and everyone that it seems like labeling can not be avoided, but it can. All we can say for sure are the facts that we know personally. And even if Bill or I come to you and tell you of our bedroom activities, you have no first hand knowledge of them so you should, and can, avoid using hearsay to label us.

But, we as humans love to tell the juiciest gossip and probably will never avoid labels completely, but we should try. Labels can hurt people.

So what are the facts of this movie as regards Jack Twist? Jack Twist loved Ennis del Mar. What are we going to do now Jack asks in the motel. We can get a little cow and calf operation together. And sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it. These show us that Jack loved Ennis. Do they show that Jack is gay? No they do not. These two men formed a special and deep bond together. Just because Jack liked to receive anal intercourse does not make him gay. We all know straight men who love the sensation of anal intercourse and that does not make them gay.

What is the most that can be said of Jack Twist's sexuality? Well, his best friend was Ennis del Mar, they had a special and deep friendship and they both denied being gay. Other than that, I don't know nor do I care what  Jack's sexuality is. It is not relevant to the movie.


Thanks Patriot1.  We shall differ on the subject of labels, which is alright.

As for myself, personally, I never shy away from introducing myself and my friends as gay if the context is appropriate. 

I am proud of the label. 


But Thomas, what on earth does that have to do with you saying that labels can not be avoided? I clearly showed that they can be avoided.

And, if you ever introduced me as your gay friend George I would be highly offended. I do not flaunt my sexual orientation and rub people's noses in it and I surely do not expect you to do it for me. If I want someone to know I am gay I know how to do it, believe me I know how.   :8

Do you go around introducing your heterosexual friends as, this is my heterosexual friend George? No, I don't think so. So why do it to a person who is gay? The label can be avoided.  I also am proud of who I am but it is up to me to tell people, not others. The guy you are introducing me to might be an ugly old troll like me and I would prefer to avoid any potential embarrassment.   ;D


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Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #71 on: Aug 16, 2006, 05:49 PM »
But Thomas, what on earth does that have to do with you saying that labels can not be avoided? I clearly showed that they can be avoided.

And, if you ever introduced me as your gay friend George I would be highly offended. I do not flaunt my sexual orientation and rub people's noses in it and I surely do not expect you to do it for me. If I want someone to know I am gay I know how to do it, believe me I know how.   :8

Do you go around introducing your heterosexual friends as, this is my heterosexual friend George? No, I don't think so. So why do it to a person who is gay? The label can be avoided.  I also am proud of who I am but it is up to me to tell people, not others. The guy you are introducing me to might be an ugly old troll like me and I would prefer to avoid any potential embarrassment.   ;D

Patriot1, peace.  I have expressed my sentiments.  They remain as is.

In predominantly gay gatherings, I invariably introduce my straight friends as straight.  This is for practical purposes.  I don't want misunderstandings to occur because of this!  ;)




Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #72 on: Aug 18, 2006, 06:50 PM »
I agree with the above posts; though I tend to think that Jack isn't as concerned with labelling himself as we are. He's attracted to Ennis; he goes after him and Ennis responds. Jimbo doesn't, Randall (presumably, but we're only guessing here) does.  Jack must be aware that showing openly what he is would be dangerous; I wonder what he'd be like if he were a young man now? It's clearly easier now to think, if not talk, about being gay and realise that you are than it would have been in the sixties. If you're afraid and need to hide and deny what you are, that has a distorting effect in all sorts of ways.

However. that's a very English perspective; I think things have changed less in the US than they have here.

Interesting, that things have changed more elsewhere than US.  We've tried to change, were on the road to major change, but certain factions have been putting up major roadblocks wherever possible.  I swear, I don't know where those factions think they are -- this is the US, bastion of freedom -- ha!

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Offline WyMe

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #73 on: Aug 18, 2006, 07:36 PM »


I agree - had they been brought up in a less censorious society or period, their lives might have been very different. It's hard to separate character from upbringing - it's the old nature/nurture dispute. Jack I think would certainly given his nature have been out and proud of it in a different time and place. Ennis I'm not so sure about.


I wonder if they had met today, over 40 years on, how different it would be.  My feeling is that nowadays it is so much easier to be "out" (ok maybe not in rural America - but at least it's talked about) that they wouldn't have been so surprised at the feelings developing between them even as 19 year olds.  It may have made their relationship easier but possibly less special?  Did having to keep it secret intensify the passion?
(Sorry I'm not very good at articulating what I mean - was it stronger because it was secret?)

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #74 on: Aug 19, 2006, 04:48 PM »


I agree - had they been brought up in a less censorious society or period, their lives might have been very different. It's hard to separate character from upbringing - it's the old nature/nurture dispute. Jack I think would certainly given his nature have been out and proud of it in a different time and place. Ennis I'm not so sure about.


I wonder if they had met today, over 40 years on, how different it would be.  My feeling is that nowadays it is so much easier to be "out" (ok maybe not in rural America - but at least it's talked about) that they wouldn't have been so surprised at the feelings developing between them even as 19 year olds.  It may have made their relationship easier but possibly less special?  Did having to keep it secret intensify the passion?
(Sorry I'm not very good at articulating what I mean - was it stronger because it was secret?)

Interesting query.  I don't know.  Jack probably would have been more open had the time and place been different.  Nonetheless, I think that even today, huge swaths of rural and even urban areas in the USA still remain relatively unfriendly to people with "different" proclivities.




Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #75 on: Aug 19, 2006, 09:34 PM »
OT:  TPE, did you say that in that deleted scene with Randall, Jack & the mechanics that Randall and Jack were kissing?  Say it ain't so---I thought they were just hugging. 

Sh*t -- I don't even know about this deleted scene!  I know about the mechanics, but didn't have any idea of something specific that they saw.  Damn, so there's a scene of Jack and Randall hugging and/or kissing?  News to me...and I'm glad it was deleted.  I'm crushed.   :\'(  Jack being to Mexico is one thing...and I know, I know, thre's the dad mentioning bringing the ranch foreman up to Lightning Flat...but I haven't invested too much in thinking about what Jack actually would have had with Randall.

kathy
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Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #76 on: Aug 19, 2006, 09:34 PM »
OT:  TPE, did you say that in that deleted scene with Randall, Jack & the mechanics that Randall and Jack were kissing?  Say it ain't so---I thought they were just hugging. 

Sh*t -- I don't even know about this deleted scene!  I know about the mechanics, but didn't have any idea of something specific that they saw.  Damn, so there's a scene of Jack and Randall hugging and/or kissing?  News to me...and I'm glad it was deleted.  I'm crushed.   :\'(  Jack being to Mexico is one thing...and I know, I know, there's the dad mentioning bringing the ranch foreman up to Lightning Flat...but I haven't invested too much in thinking about what Jack actually would have had with Randall.

kathy
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Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #77 on: Aug 19, 2006, 09:41 PM »
If this is a discussion of Jack's sexuallity, I would like to know when or if someone's sexuality --even a fictional characters's-- ever not be a topic of discussion... :\'( :\'(
Does it really matter or does caring about who someone is attracted to really help us as a people?
What if the tire iron wielders didn't discuss nor care about Jack's sexuality, would that make for a less interesting story?
A better question might be... why is sexuality still a topic of discussion (outside of the two people involved or course!) and what can we do to get over it??


The question of the century, indeed!  You know whose problem it is -- the people who think that two men loving each other, or two women, will destroy the very fabric of society??  Jeez.  It starts to seem insurmountable, because how do you convince someone when you don't even speak the same language?  How you do it is just keep making ourselves visible, keep at it and keep at it...and one day a generation of kids will grow up thinking that sexuality of whatever sort -- except children, etc., of course, anything that disempowers and hurts someone without the ability to say no -- is natural.

Back OT, I love all these perspectives of Jack's sexuality.  He is indeed the simipler of the two characters to discern, but still, his sexuality is by no means clear-cut.  But where Ennis is concerned, it's just plain love.  <^(

kathy
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Offline FulOfSadness

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #78 on: Aug 19, 2006, 09:45 PM »
I think Jack was a homosexual. He,IMO, was experienced with men way(like one or two years) before Ennis. I don't know how relevent this is to this discussion now that it has been everywhere, but Jack was gay, he liked men, he slept with men, he had no real enjoyment with Laureen, if only to eJACKulate would he sleep with her. He went to a GUY after a GUY turned him down to live with him. Jack had a GUY who was going to move up with him to his parents house, and fix the ranch all up. I think Jack was pretty gay, he never cheated on Laureen with another woman, but he sure loved it down in Mexico. I don't know what else to say, other than JACK WAS GAY.


I hope there was a deleted scene with Randell and Jack kissing, that would be a sight, even though it would feel so wrong, i wouldn't mind
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Offline ksxks

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #79 on: Aug 19, 2006, 09:56 PM »
...
The problem that invariably invades every discussion like this is that it intrinsically involves people.  Jack's sexuality is, of course, a fictitious sexuality, which means that discussing whether or not he is gay necessarily means discussing what each of us think what constitutes gayness. 
...

I would think that's what we're discussing here -- not whether gay or straight is good or bad or whether labels are good or bad (though that is an interesting and important discussion also), but what "gay" means to each of us.  Using Jack and Ennis and their behavior as we read it as a reference, what does that tell us about ourselves?  I like the discussion of "gayness" without getting sidetracked, yet we can't separate who we are from everything about society that makes us that way or that sees us a certain way...and I have no point except that it's a complex issue -- and discussing it is totally a good thing and can only make the world a better place.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline amtamburo

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An Examination of Jack Twist and My Opinion About His Sexuality
« Reply #80 on: Aug 20, 2006, 11:59 AM »
An Examination of Jack Twist and My Opinion About His Sexuality

Introduction and Disclaimer: Like a great many others, I have become an obsessive fan of Brokeback Mountain. As such, I have spent a great deal of time thinking about the movie, and its main characters, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist.

During the course of all of this thinking, I came to a few conclusions and formed a few thoughts on Ennis and Jack. Of course, these are only my thoughts and opinions, so that means that they are not by any means canon or exact. I am not Anne Proulx, so I don’t know exactly what goes on in the minds of these guys. (I do occasionally wish I was though… then I could say, “I was only joking… Jack didn’t die and he and Ennis are living happily together in Truckee, CA! That would have been a much happier ending… don’t you think?  :P) Some of you may recognize parts of this… some of it was written, by me, in a post on a previous thread and has been expanded on here. 

Anyway, the following are my assessments in regards to Jack and his feelings about his relationship with Ennis, and what I feel is the answer to the question that many people have asked. Was Jack gay, how did he know that Ennis would be receptive to him, and did he plan/arrange their first sexual encounter?


First off, let’s cover the question of how Jack knew Ennis would be receptive.
Pretty much from the first time I watched the movie my thought on this was simple. Jack knew there was a chance that Ennis might respond favorably to an advance because Ennis, though in my feeling unknowingly, did in fact put that vibe out there!

The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.

So even though I believe that Jack knew he had a chance, slim or not, I think he also chose the time that he did because of the fact that there was a possible "Drunk out of my mind" escape route available. After all, Ennis was indeed drunk enough that he would not have realized or remembered if Jack was as drunk or not. If Ennis had refused then and there, or had been angry the following morning, Jack had that to fall back on and hopefully keep their friendship from being completely destroyed in the event of a refusal.

The next question is, did Jack plan ahead of time for things to happen that night. I don't think so actually. I think that Jack saw his opportunity and decided to take it, but I don't think he planned it. There's no way he could have actually, not really. Ennis is/was unpredictable enough that there was no way Jack could have known he was going to stay in camp that night. Also, note in the scene when Jack wakes up and hears Ennis' teeth chattering. He looks and sounds disgusted here, clucking his tongue and speaking harshly, as if he is thinking "Oh for heaven's sake!" I think basically he had no real plans for anything when he called Ennis into the tent. He was obviously pleased by having him there, because of the little smile we quickly observe after he settles in (though whether this was scripted or simply a smile on Jake’s part is unclear) but I don't think there had been a 'plan' all along to get him there, not in that way anyway. After Ennis was there, I think Jack found himself so aroused by the close proximity that he decided that he couldn't wait anymore and said, 'f*** it, it's worth a black eye to find out if the signs he's giving mean what I think," and went for it.

Finally, the last question… was Jack gay? This is a sticky one. For a long time my thought was no, however, the more I think about it the more I think that he was. My reasons for this are somewhat simple.

Jack is obviously attracted to Ennis from the first moment he see him, and unlike Ennis, I believe that Jack was well aware of that attraction. He never tries to hide it from Ennis either, and in some ways, though he does not come right out and say anything directly, he is not very subtle about it either. The looks he gives him, the things that he says, the way he smiles at him, all of there things strongly speak the words “I want you!”

In the movie it doesn’t say so, and it doesn’t indicate it in the short story until after their four year reunion that he had been with others, but I believe that Jack had had some previous experience with men before he met Ennis. Anne Proulx, in an interview states this as well.

However, the biggest indicators to me that he was gay come after their time together on the mountain. After they part, he goes to Texas to rodeo. While there, before he meets Lureen, we observe him hitting on a rodeo clown. We know he goes to Mexico after the divorce rejection, and though it doesn’t say so, we can assume that this is probably not the first or the last time he did so. He had an affair with Randall that, presumably lasted several years, and he clearly states to Ennis during their last meeting that he can’t make it on “a couple of high altitude f***s” a year. This is the best indicator to me that he is gay… obviously he not only desires sew with men, but it seems that is the only kind of sex that he finds satisfying. To me that speaks of a gay man.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amtamburo, the sexual innuendo queen, strikes again!! ;p

Offical member of DAAWW 'DSD's Against Asswipe Wankeropoulous' Worldwide

Meanwhile, the search for the Green Skittle continues!

"Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands?" - Ernest Gaines

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #81 on: Aug 20, 2006, 05:30 PM »
Well, my dear, that's pretty much exactly what i think! I never could have articulated it so well though. Thank you!
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

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The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline WyMe

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Re: An Examination of Jack Twist and My Opinion About His Sexuality
« Reply #82 on: Aug 20, 2006, 06:20 PM »


The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.

It sounds like the FNIT was the first physical intimacy Ennis had ever known of any sort.  I get the impression he had never been close to anyone, not even his mother (not withstanding his dozy embrace recollection of what she'd said).  In the ss he only has a drink and a chat with Jack and he thinks "he'd never had such a good time".  In the film his little chat, explaining the situation with his siblings, was "the most he'd spoke in a year".  Did he fall in love with Jack because he was the first person he could talk to,  or did he talk to Jack because he was falling in love with him?

Offline FulOfSadness

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Re: An Examination of Jack Twist and My Opinion About His Sexuality
« Reply #83 on: Aug 20, 2006, 07:09 PM »


The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.

It sounds like the FNIT was the first physical intimacy Ennis had ever known of any sort.  I get the impression he had never been close to anyone, not even his mother (not withstanding his dozy embrace recollection of what she'd said).  In the ss he only has a drink and a chat with Jack and he thinks "he'd never had such a good time".  In the film his little chat, explaining the situation with his siblings, was "the most he'd spoke in a year".  Did he fall in love with Jack because he was the first person he could talk to,  or did he talk to Jack because he was falling in love with him?

Good point. I can't believe your a Cassie, you seem like you have been broken in by this site ;D anyway. I think Ennis was falling for Jack and thats why he spoke so fluently to him. They share a smile, but both look away shyly. Jack changed a tad, but its a very important tad, he grew more bitter. He hated everything he was living for except Ennis, and possibly his son. In the SS he says that he didn't want a kid, but nothing turns out his way. (Sad that is) Ennis was indeed a virgin till the FNIT. Jack is another story, i don't believe he was, but i'm not going there. Both men changed even a little bit. Jack gave Ennis someone to talk to, to love, and embrace him. I think that overrides the "Elk shooting" and the "Tent fixing" Jack was just unhappy that he couldn't go to Ennis 24/7, so he slowly grew bitter.
"The bitterest tears shed over graves are for words left unsaid and deeds left undone."
-Harriet Beecher Stowe.

RebelWithSadness

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #84 on: Aug 21, 2006, 12:57 AM »
Jack also betrays himslef, or his feelings for ennis, whereas Ennis doesn't compormise his feelings for Jack; after the divorce there's clearly no-one else inhis life, but Jack admits that for him there has been. He's not just older and bitter at the sense of all the compromises he's made and the wasted life but also I think angry at himslef because of what he's done, forced into it by Ennis's stubbornness.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #85 on: Aug 21, 2006, 07:32 AM »
...
The problem that invariably invades every discussion like this is that it intrinsically involves people.  Jack's sexuality is, of course, a fictitious sexuality, which means that discussing whether or not he is gay necessarily means discussing what each of us think what constitutes gayness. 
...

I would think that's what we're discussing here -- not whether gay or straight is good or bad or whether labels are good or bad (though that is an interesting and important discussion also), but what "gay" means to each of us.  Using Jack and Ennis and their behavior as we read it as a reference, what does that tell us about ourselves?  I like the discussion of "gayness" without getting sidetracked, yet we can't separate who we are from everything about society that makes us that way or that sees us a certain way...and I have no point except that it's a complex issue -- and discussing it is totally a good thing and can only make the world a better place.

kathy


Yes, I do agree that this is the implicit subject under discussion, and it is not at all simple.

Also, I would like to apologize about sayinmg that Jack and Randall kissed.   I am told that thye just embraced in the deleted scene.


Offline tpe

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Re: An Examination of Jack Twist and My Opinion About His Sexuality
« Reply #86 on: Aug 21, 2006, 07:37 AM »
An Examination of Jack Twist and My Opinion About His Sexuality

Introduction and Disclaimer: Like a great many others, I have become an obsessive fan of Brokeback Mountain. As such, I have spent a great deal of time thinking about the movie, and its main characters, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist.

During the course of all of this thinking, I came to a few conclusions and formed a few thoughts on Ennis and Jack. Of course, these are only my thoughts and opinions, so that means that they are not by any means canon or exact. I am not Anne Proulx, so I don’t know exactly what goes on in the minds of these guys. (I do occasionally wish I was though… then I could say, “I was only joking… Jack didn’t die and he and Ennis are living happily together in Truckee, CA! That would have been a much happier ending… don’t you think?  :P) Some of you may recognize parts of this… some of it was written, by me, in a post on a previous thread and has been expanded on here. 

Anyway, the following are my assessments in regards to Jack and his feelings about his relationship with Ennis, and what I feel is the answer to the question that many people have asked. Was Jack gay, how did he know that Ennis would be receptive to him, and did he plan/arrange their first sexual encounter?


First off, let’s cover the question of how Jack knew Ennis would be receptive.
Pretty much from the first time I watched the movie my thought on this was simple. Jack knew there was a chance that Ennis might respond favorably to an advance because Ennis, though in my feeling unknowingly, did in fact put that vibe out there!

The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.

So even though I believe that Jack knew he had a chance, slim or not, I think he also chose the time that he did because of the fact that there was a possible "Drunk out of my mind" escape route available. After all, Ennis was indeed drunk enough that he would not have realized or remembered if Jack was as drunk or not. If Ennis had refused then and there, or had been angry the following morning, Jack had that to fall back on and hopefully keep their friendship from being completely destroyed in the event of a refusal.

The next question is, did Jack plan ahead of time for things to happen that night. I don't think so actually. I think that Jack saw his opportunity and decided to take it, but I don't think he planned it. There's no way he could have actually, not really. Ennis is/was unpredictable enough that there was no way Jack could have known he was going to stay in camp that night. Also, note in the scene when Jack wakes up and hears Ennis' teeth chattering. He looks and sounds disgusted here, clucking his tongue and speaking harshly, as if he is thinking "Oh for heaven's sake!" I think basically he had no real plans for anything when he called Ennis into the tent. He was obviously pleased by having him there, because of the little smile we quickly observe after he settles in (though whether this was scripted or simply a smile on Jake’s part is unclear) but I don't think there had been a 'plan' all along to get him there, not in that way anyway. After Ennis was there, I think Jack found himself so aroused by the close proximity that he decided that he couldn't wait anymore and said, 'f*** it, it's worth a black eye to find out if the signs he's giving mean what I think," and went for it.

Finally, the last question… was Jack gay? This is a sticky one. For a long time my thought was no, however, the more I think about it the more I think that he was. My reasons for this are somewhat simple.

Jack is obviously attracted to Ennis from the first moment he see him, and unlike Ennis, I believe that Jack was well aware of that attraction. He never tries to hide it from Ennis either, and in some ways, though he does not come right out and say anything directly, he is not very subtle about it either. The looks he gives him, the things that he says, the way he smiles at him, all of there things strongly speak the words “I want you!”

In the movie it doesn’t say so, and it doesn’t indicate it in the short story until after their four year reunion that he had been with others, but I believe that Jack had had some previous experience with men before he met Ennis. Anne Proulx, in an interview states this as well.

However, the biggest indicators to me that he was gay come after their time together on the mountain. After they part, he goes to Texas to rodeo. While there, before he meets Lureen, we observe him hitting on a rodeo clown. We know he goes to Mexico after the divorce rejection, and though it doesn’t say so, we can assume that this is probably not the first or the last time he did so. He had an affair with Randall that, presumably lasted several years, and he clearly states to Ennis during their last meeting that he can’t make it on “a couple of high altitude f***s” a year. This is the best indicator to me that he is gay… obviously he not only desires sew with men, but it seems that is the only kind of sex that he finds satisfying. To me that speaks of a gay man.


amtamburo, did you not also post an interesting opinion about whether or not Ennis was gay? 

Whether I agree or not agree with all your conclusions, there is no doubt in my mind that you had thought about these topics very carefully.  For this I thank you.

 

Offline tpe

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Re: An Examination of Jack Twist and My Opinion About His Sexuality
« Reply #87 on: Aug 21, 2006, 07:41 AM »


The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.

It sounds like the FNIT was the first physical intimacy Ennis had ever known of any sort.  I get the impression he had never been close to anyone, not even his mother (not withstanding his dozy embrace recollection of what she'd said).  In the ss he only has a drink and a chat with Jack and he thinks "he'd never had such a good time".  In the film his little chat, explaining the situation with his siblings, was "the most he'd spoke in a year".  Did he fall in love with Jack because he was the first person he could talk to,  or did he talk to Jack because he was falling in love with him?

In relation to his character and his attitude to his sexuality, I do think Jack did undergo remarkable changes.  He was certainly more bitter (and inevitably resigned) towards the end.  And let us not forget "Yes, I've been to Mexico, is there a f*cking problem?".  I cannot imagine him making such an avowal earlier in his life.


Offline welshwitch

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #88 on: Aug 21, 2006, 08:04 AM »
This defiant statement comes from his being older, more experienced and knowing he can get what he wants other than from Ennis. It also comes, I think, from his secure financial position and his belief that he is safe enough in his everyday life. And it's the thing that makesm e think he's ready to give up on Ennis at least as far as the sweet life is concerned - he first went to Mexico after the divorce scene, but he's kept it quiet for years - now he either thinks if Ennis knows he'll realise how desperate he is or just doesn't care how knowing will affect Ennis.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion
« Reply #89 on: Aug 21, 2006, 11:11 AM »
This defiant statement comes from his being older, more experienced and knowing he can get what he wants other than from Ennis. It also comes, I think, from his secure financial position and his belief that he is safe enough in his everyday life. And it's the thing that makesm e think he's ready to give up on Ennis at least as far as the sweet life is concerned - he first went to Mexico after the divorce scene, but he's kept it quiet for years - now he either thinks if Ennis knows he'll realise how desperate he is or just doesn't care how knowing will affect Ennis.


I also think it was born out of Ennis bringing up this issue about his sexuality.  In earlier days, he would have denied it or played along.  In the last meeting, it feels like he has had enough...