Topic: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion

[welshwitch]

As I've said before, unlike us these are not analytical people - they have limited inner or intellectual lives, and that's particularly true of Jack, I think. He feels and acts on his feelings without any great desire to analyze how and why.

[tpe]

As I've said before, unlike us these are not analytical people - they have limited inner or intellectual lives, and that's particularly true of Jack, I think. He feels and acts on his feelings without any great desire to analyze how and why.

This is indeed especially true of Jack.  Ennis to a certain extent tried to evade the need to analyze; but the inherent conflict between his fears and the nature of his own desires complicated matters for him.

 

[FlwrChild]

Beautiful HiAltShag.

[welshwitch]

There remaineth three things, faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.

[tpe]

Since we are in the subject of quotes, I would like to share two favorite Proustian quotes that come to mind whenever I think of Jack love and what it says about his sexuality.


...love which, ever unsatisfied, lives always in the moment that is about to come...


It is telling that Jack's love for Ennis, as with his sexual desires, is defined by a continuous state of unsatisfaction.  His sexual and spiritual natures are tied to a strong element of desire.


Love is space and time measured by the heart.


Whatever Jack's sexual nature, we recognize that it is ruled by the heart.

[tpe]

This quote was highly disconcerting at first. Until I gave it further thought,then realised you could apply it in the context of an established and nurturing relationship.....WHEW !!!

But wouldn't you agree that it is so Jack? 

[tpe]

I think this is what intrigues me about Jack's sexuality: the emotive and -- as what others would term it as -- more "feminine" aspect about it.   Although unsatisfied in his desire for a life with Ennis, the reaction is more passive, more "wait and see." The active element is not totally neglected -- witness his need for immediate gratification in his trips to Mexico -- but when it comes to dealing with Ennis, Jack simply refuses to be drawn into a cycle of escalating conflict for most of the 20 years he had to deal with rejection. 

It is the way he comes to terms with his dissatisfaction and the knowledge of a dream deferred that touches me.  Whatever Jack's sexual identity, I know that he is indeed capable of love and loving deeply.

[Holden Worther]

Is Jack gay? Bi? 

All I remember is the sad, hurt, confused look on Jack's face when after FNIT, Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack answers "Me neither."   The look on his face says he's lying and he knows it. And he's sad that he has to lie to be with Ennis. Just my opinion  :\'(

that part made me so mad because we live in a world where people can't admit what they really feel, even when this took place. Jack had to lie to get what he loved because people are insensitive. It breaks my heart everytime i watch it. 

[tpe]

that part made me so mad because we live in a world where people can't admit what they really feel, even when this took place. Jack had to lie to get what he loved because people are insensitive. It breaks my heart everytime i watch it. 

Whatever our thought regarding Jack's sexuality, I think we all agree that Jack could not have acted any other way at that moment, because he recognized that to have said anything else would have been too difficult for Ennis to deal with. 

[aintfoolin]

I feel this is where Jack's fear is most obvious. He did'nt want to loose Ennis after the porgress he had made with him up to that point. He had gotten Ennis to at least acknowlege that he may have some feelings , in the realm of his own. But Jack knew even after FNIT that Ennis was not  exactly ready to march in the gay pride parades just yet. Far from it.  He had to think fast and deny who he was,  or risk loosing Ennis.  Ennis was clear with his denial, " I anit queer". This statement spoke volumes to Jack,told him alot about Ennis;s state of mind. Was'nt gonna foolishly get into lectures  or forceful  prodding with him about it.  This would only put Ennis on the defensive, although he had the sense that Ennis was in deep denial.  It was only after SNIT when Jack saw the real vulnerability of Ennis. He had  heiped paved the way for this very withdrawn , emotionally * beaten down* cowboy to find enough courage to explore further, a part of his sexuality that mirrored his own. It's a sad commentary on society then and now that disallows people to be themselves with out fear of harm or rejection....My 2 cents

[stephan]

Jack's intuitions almost always matched the truth. The second tent scene shows that Jack wasn't fooled by Ennis's « I ain't queer » ; he waited for Ennis, and Ennis showed up in the tent.
Later, however, for example after Ennis's divorce, Jack was too far ahead of Ennis, who still wasn't ready to live with Jack. But I think that until his dying breath, Jack knew how much Ennis loved him.

[manhattangirl]

SNIT was Ennis's choice, he was sober, he walked to the tent, his hat off his head in his hand, kneeling in front of Jack.   He wanted Jack again,  the awkward kiss, and Jack's gentle reassurances.  Jack knew how important this passage in Ennis's life was.  Jack wisely let Ennis feel the experience, touch him, get lost in him, and then guide him.   The emotional and physical need for Jack was there for Ennis, it was only the years of mental conditioning was the wall Jack couldn't  breakthrough. 

I believe that Jack's sexuality though never outwardly declared was alway an unspoken reality.   Ennis's sexuality was a shouted denial of who he really was.  My 2 cents.

[tpe]

I feel this is where Jack's fear is most obvious. He did'nt want to loose Ennis after the porgress he had made with him up to that point. He had gotten Ennis to at least acknowlege that he may have some feelings , in the realm of his own. But Jack knew even after FNIT that Ennis was not  exactly ready to march in the gay pride parades just yet. Far from it.  He had to think fast and deny who he was,  or risk loosing Ennis.  Ennis was clear with his denial, " I anit queer". This statement spoke volumes to Jack,told him alot about Ennis;s state of mind. Was'nt gonna foolishly get into lectures  or forceful  prodding with him about it.  This would only put Ennis on the defensive, although he had the sense that Ennis was in deep denial.  It was only after SNIT when Jack saw the real vulnerability of Ennis. He had  heiped paved the way for this very withdrawn , emotionally * beaten down* cowboy to find enough courage to explore further, a part of his sexuality that mirrored his own. It's a sad commentary on society then and now that disallows people to be themselves with out fear of harm or rejection....My 2 cents

To me, Jack's denial was necessary strategy.    He probably perceived that so long as he plays on Ennis's denial in the short term, then he would be able to turn him around in the long run.  THe interesting thing is that the "truning around" never really happened, but that he stayed anyway.  I think that in the end, Jack was more accepting of himself and of Ennis: to the point of standing up in the last meeting: "Is that a problem?"

I think that at the end of his life, Jack lost his fears.

 

[tpe]

Jack's intuitions almost always matched the truth. The second tent scene shows that Jack wasn't fooled by Ennis's « I ain't queer » ; he waited for Ennis, and Ennis showed up in the tent.
Later, however, for example after Ennis's divorce, Jack was too far ahead of Ennis, who still wasn't ready to live with Jack. But I think that until his dying breath, Jack knew how much Ennis loved him.

Good point, Stephan.  I think Jack understood Ennis is some ways more than even Ennis himself.  I guess it's because he had faced up to the same issues himself.

[tpe]

SNIT was Ennis's choice, he was sober, he walked to the tent, his hat off his head in his hand, kneeling in front of Jack.   He wanted Jack again,  the awkward kiss, and Jack's gentle reassurances.  Jack knew how important this passage in Ennis's life was.  Jack wisely let Ennis feel the experience, touch him, get lost in him, and then guide him.   The emotional and physical need for Jack was there for Ennis, it was only the years of mental conditioning was the wall Jack couldn't  breakthrough. 

I believe that Jack's sexuality though never outwardly declared was alway an unspoken reality.   Ennis's sexuality was a shouted denial of who he really was.  My 2 cents.

It is interesting to see how confident Jack was in the SNIT.  There was no hesitation or confusion, as we see in Ennis.  I think this is the first instance where we see Jack being completely comfortable with himself and his desires.

[ksxks]

Do you think, Thomas, that Jack had not been sexual with a man before?  When you spoke of this being the first time we see him comfortable with his desires.  I don't know if I think Jack had been sexual with men before or not, but in this instance, this summer, with Ennis, he knew he had to take the lead.  And his desires certainly seemed to have taken the lead over any hesitations he might have in his mind, so that he could take the lead with Ennis.  Both of them seemed to realize how it had to be that night, as opposed to FNIT.

kathy

[tpe]

Do you think, Thomas, that Jack had not been sexual with a man before?  When you spoke of this being the first time we see him comfortable with his desires.  I don't know if I think Jack had been sexual with men before or not, but in this instance, this summer, with Ennis, he knew he had to take the lead.  And his desires certainly seemed to have taken the lead over any hesitations he might have in his mind, so that he could take the lead with Ennis.  Both of them seemed to realize how it had to be that night, as opposed to FNIT.

kathy

I had meant the statement to apply to his dealings with Ennis, specifically, but your question got me to think of this even more.  Surely, any sexual encounters Jack had during previous summers must not have made a lasting connection weith him.  They were probably purely driven more by physical gratification.  And in many such cases, we tend to be less comfortable when we contemplate of a deeper connection.  (the "I'm just in it for the fun" attitude, with no strings attached.)  Do you know what I am referring to here?  Some poeple have a fear of commitment precisely because they do not really feel comfortable with a relationship on a much deeper level...

[lamusica]

Perhaps this comment belongs more under the thread "When did they fall in love?", but it fits in with this thread, too.  As you pointed out, tpe, the men who came before Ennis were just physical gratification to Jack.  I really believe  the FNIT is similar to those experiences -- fast, furious, rough, satisfying, but physical only.  I think it wasn't until the SNIT that Jack takes the experience WAAAAYYY past the physical.  He is tender, slow, coaxing, but not forceful.  He opens himself up to rejection; he leaves it up to Ennis whether or not he comes to Jack's tent.  This is the scene where, I believe, Jack falls in love.  He no longer wants an occasional f**k.  He wants some feeling from ENnis because he has those feelings FOR Ennis.  I don't think Jack ever felt like that about anyone, including Randall in the future.  (I think the SNIT opened the door to love for Ennis, but he wasn't there yet.  I don't believe ENnis fell in love until four years later when he finally realized what his physical actions meant when he got sick while walking down the road away from Jack after they left BBM.  Once ENnis realized why he was so angry and hurt so much, I think he figured out that he really loved this man and wanted him.  Therefore, when Jack re-emerges, Ennis is ready for love.)

[ksxks]

I had meant the statement to apply to his dealings with Ennis, specifically, but your question got me to think of this even more.  Surely, any sexual encounters Jack had during previous summers must not have made a lasting connection weith him.  They were probably purely driven more by physical gratification.  And in many such cases, we tend to be less comfortable when we contemplate of a deeper connection.  (the "I'm just in it for the fun" attitude, with no strings attached.)  Do you know what I am referring to here?  Some poeple have a fear of commitment precisely because they do not really feel comfortable with a relationship on a much deeper level...

Yes, I certainly know what you mean, that "love" would have been much more difficult for both of them than "sex."  I mean, men have always had sex with each other (and with other things besides women), but it's not that difficult for them to deny that it has any meaning but a necessary gratification or relief of frustration.  These two...oh...so beautiful, the SNIT -- they moved on to something much more precious than just sex.

Okay, this is definitely a big generalization, but we all know what is said about men and sex vs. women and sex -- that it is a much more purely physical act for men, but for women, it is tied in with our whole beings and maybe even the well-being of the world.  So we could say (on the subject of why women love men-in-love) that we love men, love Ennis and Jack, sharing sex in a "woman's way," sex with a whole heartful of emotion attached.  When they crossed that line they became lovers in the most wonderful sense of the word.

kathy

[ksxks]

Perhaps this comment belongs more under the thread "When did they fall in love?", but it fits in with this thread, too.  As you pointed out, tpe, the men who came before Ennis were just physical gratification to Jack.  I really believe  the FNIT is similar to those experiences -- fast, furious, rough, satisfying, but physical only.  I think it wasn't until the SNIT that Jack takes the experience WAAAAYYY past the physical.  He is tender, slow, coaxing, but not forceful.  He opens himself up to rejection; he leaves it up to Ennis whether or not he comes to Jack's tent.  This is the scene where, I believe, Jack falls in love.  He no longer wants an occasional f**k.  He wants some feeling from ENnis because he has those feelings FOR Ennis.  I don't think Jack ever felt like that about anyone, including Randall in the future.  (I think the SNIT opened the door to love for Ennis, but he wasn't there yet.  I don't believe ENnis fell in love until four years later when he finally realized what his physical actions meant when he got sick while walking down the road away from Jack after they left BBM.  Once ENnis realized why he was so angry and hurt so much, I think he figured out that he really loved this man and wanted him.  Therefore, when Jack re-emerges, Ennis is ready for love.)

Beautiful post, lamusica.  I love what you said about Jack here.

And very perceptive about Ennis, too.  In the movie, that is certainly true; but I think that in the story (though I don't know the story by heart like the movie) he is more aware of loving Jack during those four years.  In any event, oh yes, he was "ready for love."  Was he ever.  So beautiful...

kathy

[manhattangirl]

Yes, I certainly know what you mean, that "love" would have been much more difficult for both of them than "sex."  I mean, men have always had sex with each other (and with other things besides women), but it's not that difficult for them to deny that it has any meaning but a necessary gratification or relief of frustration.  These two...oh...so beautiful, the SNIT -- they moved on to something much more precious than just sex.

Okay, this is definitely a big generalization, but we all know what is said about men and sex vs. women and sex -- that it is a much more purely physical act for men, but for women, it is tied in with our whole beings and maybe even the well-being of the world.  So we could say (on the subject of why women love men-in-love) that we love men, love Ennis and Jack, sharing sex in a "woman's way," sex with a whole heartful of emotion attached.  When they crossed that line they became lovers in the most wonderful sense of the word.

kathy

Kathy,

I loved your post.  Its a question I had, but couldn't really put into words.   Even after the FNIT, I think both were at most vulnerable in their lives.   From the start, the friendship and close bonding that brings got all tied-up in the sex, a almost natural progression which was specific to these two men.  One recognize in the other that there was no other way to go but the physical, and the meaning of that kind of bonding.  Now for some it's almost like the question what came first the chicken or the egg.  Was it emotional or the physical, or was all tied up on that FNIT, they knew that this was how it was going to be between them from that night on.   

At the reunion, Ennis lay in Jack's arm, protected, wanted.  Jack held on to Ennis possessively, knowing that he wasn't letting him get away again.  Emotionally open to one another, sexually needing each other specifically, notwithstanding who they been with since or before, or after.  Your statement of a man's physical, and women's emotional view of sex is so tied up with them, it evidence that we see our own vulnerability in them.  Is that why it's so heartbreakingly disturbing and so beautiful to some of us?   

[jackster]

Perhaps this comment belongs more under the thread "When did they fall in love?", but it fits in with this thread, too.

I'll second kathy's praise here lamusica, all beautifully said. As for Ennis I’ve always interpreted his line from SS motel scene as him admitting when he knew he fell in love:
"That summer, when we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."

I know there’s considerable variation applied to the significance of the motel scene from the SS to film, but I feel this simple acknowledgement was an unfortunate loss in the film, it clarified Ennis's selfawareness. Maybe Ang felt the pure power of the reunion kiss made up for it.

jackster

[lamusica]

Right, jackster.  I was thinking he realized the real cause of his cramps a few years later.  Forgot the exact words.  But, we see it the same way. It was that physical experience of real pain that showed his mental ( emotional) pain.  He had just never experienced anything like that before, so didn't recognize it for what it was for a year.  I found that gut-wrenching scene to be one of the most poignant and meaningful scenes in the movie.  I think the viewers knew what was causing the cramps, even if Ennis didn't.

[manhattangirl]

Right, jackster.  I was thinking he realized the real cause of his cramps a few years later.  Forgot the exact words.  But, we see it the same way. It was that physical experience of real pain that showed his mental ( emotional) pain.  He had just never experienced anything like that before, so didn't recognize it for what it was for a year.  I found that gut-wrenching scene to be one of the most poignant and meaningful scenes in the movie.  I think the viewers knew what was causing the cramps, even if Ennis didn't.

Then at what point did Ennis start to  have a kind of "out of body experience"?  He never listened his "gut feelings".  His body, was giving him signs, but he never caught on.   

[ksxks]

Kathy,

I loved your post.  Its a question I had, but couldn't really put into words.   Even after the FNIT, I think both were at most vulnerable in their lives.   From the start, the friendship and close bonding that brings got all tied-up in the sex, a almost natural progression which was specific to these two men.  One recognize in the other that there was no other way to go but the physical, and the meaning of that kind of bonding.  Now for some it's almost like the question what came first the chicken or the egg.  Was it emotional or the physical, or was all tied up on that FNIT, they knew that this was how it was going to be between them from that night on.   

At the reunion, Ennis lay in Jack's arm, protected, wanted.  Jack held on to Ennis possessively, knowing that he wasn't letting him get away again.  Emotionally open to one another, sexually needing each other specifically, notwithstanding who they been with since or before, or after.  Your statement of a man's physical, and women's emotional view of sex is so tied up with them, it evidence that we see our own vulnerability in them.  Is that why it's so heartbreakingly disturbing and so beautiful to some of us?   

As much as we have discussed this, I don't think I have considered it in such a simple way, that feels like the truth of the matter -- we love men in love because (among other reasons) of the vulnerability with each other -- and vulnerability is something we are more familiar with than not.  (Unless we've closed ourselves up.  And if we have, then we need only watch Ennis to learn how not to be!)

kathy

[ksxks]

Jackster, you, too -- lovely words.  It fills me with...something rich and deep, and a little sad, and a little hopeful, to read all of this, this discussion of trying to understand this beautiful love we get to look at and learn from.

kathy

[jackster]

“I ain’t queer . . . . me neither”.
This quote and it’s significance in terms of personal denial has been mentioned several times here and in other threads . . . .

I remember is the sad, hurt, confused look on Jack's face when after FNIT, Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack answers "Me neither." The look on his face says he's lying and he knows it. And he's sad that he has to lie to be with Ennis. Just my opinion.

IMHO I don’t think that either Ennis or Jack truly did think they were “queer” when this phase is uttered in ’63 – their shared sex notwithstanding. So to me this isn’t truly a denial. This is 1963, rural Wyoming. I’m no gay historian, but I think both guy’s would’ve thought a queer was someone who was effeminate, a nancy, or a dozen other adjectives used to describe non-masculine men who were considered queer in those parts (and many others) in those days - and for some time to come.

Again to me, it doesn’t seem that Ennis or Jack looked on either themselves or each other that way during their summer on Brokeback. I sense they both felt they were predominantly heterosexual, and that ruled out being considered “a queer”. I think of all the butch sailors in port cities who “allowed” themselves to be picked up by men for sex, I doubt many considered themselves “queer” either. One of the marvels of the modern gay pride movement has been to turn “queer” into a term many use today (40+ yrs later) with bravado to describe themselves. How and when Jack’s and Ennis’s view of this may have changed over the years is an interesting question to me. By the reunion kiss in '67, and then by '83, after 20 years of their relationship, did they think they were “queer” then? Or was there another term they would use to describe each other – “Tough old birds”   ?. . .  Is this one of the things that made Ennis finally breakdown with his crushing defeat of “I can’t stand this anymore Jack”? He saw himself as a "queer"?

jackster

[manhattangirl]

Jacksters that is a very good question,  at some point Ennis had to realize that he was what he was so afraid to be.   I believed Jack always quietly accepted who he was.   '63 Ennis declared what he wasn't "queer",   '67 was where he made the rules of how this "thing" that came over them was going to go on.   Jack being in love with Ennis had no choice.   '83 was an all too late realization to Ennis  what was really going on between them, Jack laid it out brutally, honestly and Ennis was faced with the understanding of what his lover was going through, partly of his doing,  and the kind of life he himself was living.    He couldn't fix it or stand it.   

Did these men feel that they were "queer"?   Who knows, It's like the word "love" between them,  never spoken, but understood.     They stayed hidden on Brokeback for some reason.             

[lamusica]

Great observations, manhattangirl and jackster.  I do think "queer" meant a lot more that "gay" does now.  Ennis never saw himself as queer, but he always felt he was doing something wrong by loving Jack.  His guilt made him imagine other people knew what he and Jack were to each other.  Of course, he may have intuited that Alma knew something. Certainly, they both knew they had to keep what they were doing private -- the world was not ready for their kind of relationship no matter what name you put to it.

[aintfoolin]

 I've often wondered what  Ennis defined *queer* as. He compartmentalizes everything.  What does Ennis see gay as? Maybe he thinks it means taking on a particular *role*  within  the masculine/fem mindset. He is by his nature a dominant personality almost bordering on a controlling. I see this as part of both Jack and Ennis's culture where the man has the last word and no one challenged that. Jack never really challenged Ennis verbally until 20 years later and up until that moment for the most part Ennis ran the show. Jack is easy going and is much more comfortable with his sexuality. He accepts himself in whatever role he plays, father, husband or lover to Ennis . He  is always *just Jack*  Perhaps Ennis sees his essence of manhood / masculinity threatened ...not by fighting a bigger guy physically  and loosing , or even  infidelity on Alma's part,  but the threat came personally  from  a tug of war from within . An intense feeling for Jack that he could'nt control., another man, as masculine as they come too. It appears he stumbled into love with Jack  amidst all the conflicts inside .Once he did there was no going back. It would also give more explaination about why he refused to live with Jack which would intensify this fear of categorizing himsel into a role. to him, No one must find out.