Topic: Jack's Sexuality: A Discussion

[aintfoolin]

I feel Jack was such a human character. His sexuality as is like most people depends not only just sex, but something much deeper. He was able to receive whatever Ennis defined as love. He felt something alot deeper than physical aspects, and I feel on this plane he and Ennis were  the most equal. In SNIT Ennis appararently felt something deep and soulstirring with Jack. Yes, they had sex, but I feel one must go back a step. Ennis sitting on that log contemplating going in  and Jack inside must have been a  moment of  confusing thoughts for both.  Jack had laid a "foundation " for Ennis to either accept or reject.  Showed Ennis who he  himself was ,( a brave move) and what he wanted  from Ennis which was to show Ennis that he had embraced his homosexuality and desired Ennis to do the same.  Jack's  whole  sexuality defined , is what Ennis fell in love with. It is the whole person Ennis went into that tent to join with. Jack first became a friend, gained Ennis's trust, a feat within itself, slowly and with patience drew Ennis to him in a way Ennis had never experienced before. All done in his own sensual way and  Ennis found himself no longer able to  deny Jack, Another man .  IMO Jack did'nt really deny anything concerning what he wanted after FNIT  and I think Ennis was pleasantly suprised though he tried  unsuccessfully to deny what he felt. Jack somehow (not forced)  created the dynamics , The driving force behind Ennis's  life-altering  experience  of falling in love, really in love for the 1rst time.  He knew, he never let anyone define him. sexually.  He defined himself first.   just as a person. Ennis saw, he liked , he followed. In that way, Jack won.IMHO.

[tpe]

I feel Jack was such a human character. His sexuality as is like most people depends not only just sex, but something much deeper. He was able to receive whatever Ennis defined as love. He felt something alot deeper than physical aspects, and I feel on this plane he and Ennis were  the most equal. In SNIT Ennis appararently felt something deep and soulstirring with Jack. Yes, they had sex, but I feel one must go back a step. Ennis sitting on that log contemplating going in  and Jack inside must have been a  moment of  confusing thoughts for both.  Jack had laid a "foundation " for Ennis to either accept or reject.  Showed Ennis who he  himself was ,( a brave move) and what he wanted  from Ennis which was to show Ennis that he had embraced his homosexuality and desired Ennis to do the same.  Jack's  whole  sexuality defined , is what Ennis fell in love with. It is the whole person Ennis went into that tent to join with. Jack first became a friend, gained Ennis's trust, a feat within itself, slowly and with patience drew Ennis to him in a way Ennis had never experienced before. All done in his own sensual way and  Ennis found himself no longer able to  deny Jack, Another man .  IMO Jack did'nt really deny anything concerning what he wanted after FNIT  and I think Ennis was pleasantly suprised though he tried  unsuccessfully to deny what he felt. Jack somehow (not forced)  created the dynamics , The driving force behind Ennis's  life-altering  experience  of falling in love, really in love for the 1rst time.  He knew, he never let anyone define him. sexually.  He defined himself first.   just as a person. Ennis saw, he liked , he followed. In that way, Jack won.IMHO.

Thanks aintfoolin.  reflecting on this again, I think Jack epitomizes a careful balance between physical drive and romantic love.  There is no doubt in my mind that Jack is a true romantic, even in the most sordid details.  Part of this romanticism are the innate contradictions in how he handles his love for Ennis -- seemingly wanting it for the physical gratification, but always demanding that there is something greater than this that calls him to his love.  I guess this is what attracts me to him. 

Perhaps Jack also had issues dealing with his own sexuality -- seeking to rationalize certain aspects the way Ennis does.  But it was not enough for him to deny it, whereas Ennis could never bring himself to accept his own deep feelings.  This lack of inner conflict saves Jack, in as much as he has control over the situation.  Unfortunately, it was not all under his sole control.

Romantic or not, I think many of us can relate much easier to Jack's plight, rather than to the tortured and equally deep Ennis.  His response to his sexuality touches the human element in us all.

[aintfoolin]

Certainly it does seem easier to identify with Jack's situation since he is the one most feel was "wronged " but personally I indentify  more with Ennis. I cannot relate to him in this situation in the film but I can relate to his personality traits in many ways. I understand how he got there. To me Jack has an inner strength that is envied. I admire his stamina  and patience in dealing with this man., a wounded soul, Out of love to try to get Ennis to feel he can love himself  for who he truly is , but unfortunatly Ennis's problems go deeper than he is able to comprehend. He can love Ennis but he cannot "mold" him into what or who he wants. Jack is indeed more open and accepting of himself and his sexuality  than Ennis  ever was. I think this is part of what drew Ennis to Jack. In a way I think Jack's charming ability to get *close' to people without much effort impressed Ennis greatly.  No one had gotten that close enough to Ennis. because Ennis would'nt allow it.  Only Jack broke through the wall as no one had before although he himself was *feeling* his own way through and living on assumptions at times.  And I will include Alma here. It is Jack he looked to for completion. I think along with Jack and Ennis being physically attracted to each other as well as sexually, there was so much more there to be explored. Thanks.

[tpe]

Certainly it does seem easier to identify with Jack's situation since he is the one most feel was "wronged " but personally I indentify  more with Ennis. I cannot relate to him in this situation in the film but I can relate to his personality traits in many ways. I understand how he got there. To me Jack has an inner strength that is envied. I admire his stamina  and patience in dealing with this man., a wounded soul, Out of love to try to get Ennis to feel he can love himself  for who he truly is , but unfortunatly Ennis's problems go deeper than he is able to comprehend. He can love Ennis but he cannot "mold" him into what or who he wants. Jack is indeed more open and accepting of himself and his sexuality  than Ennis  ever was. I think this is part of what drew Ennis to Jack. In a way I think Jack's charming ability to get *close' to people without much effort impressed Ennis greatly.  No one had gotten that close enough to Ennis. because Ennis would'nt allow it.  Only Jack broke through the wall as no one had before although he himself was *feeling* his own way through and living on assumptions at times.  And I will include Alma here. It is Jack he looked to for completion. I think along with Jack and Ennis being physically attracted to each other as well as sexually, there was so much more there to be explored. Thanks.

Some of us do become attracted to Ennis's remoteness and aloofness precisely because they epitomize something inside of each of us that wants to nurture and protect him.  But I found this comment of yours interesting: "I understand how he got there"  Sometimes, I wonder if I do.  I think I should, but I must truthfully say that I sympathize more than empathize with Ennis as a person. 

Jack's sexuality is also problematic, but I find it much easier to empathize with it, not just because he epitomizes someone being "wronged"; rather, I think there is a level of acceptance in the way he nurtutes his love and the conflict that it embroils him in.  He is not a thinker.  He is of course a dreamer.  But he is also someone who has a way of quietly accepting things, even as he struggles with his own uncertainties.

[manhattangirl]

Jack's sexuality is also problematic, but I find it much easier to empathize with it, not just because he epitomizes someone being "wronged"; rather, I think there is a level of acceptance in the way he nurtutes his love and the conflict that it embroils him in.  He is not a thinker.  He is of course a dreamer.   But he is also someone who has a way of quietly accepting things, even as he struggles with his own uncertainties.

His a dream deferred. 

[tpe]

His a dream deferred. 

What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?


(Langston Hughes -- "A Dream Deferred")

[aintfoolin]

 Alot of us identify with Ennis's childhood traumas. When you grow up in a family where the father is super strict and has total and complete control , the children are forced to give up certain freedoms. perhaps this explains the withdrawn quiet, personality, and yes it makes you want to just give him a hug.  I have always beleived that we all are a products of our envirement. I think as children and in Ennis's case , the parent/parents instill in the kids THEIR basic values. Not necessaily the child's. Standards are set. Beleifs are instilled and fear  is ingrained to make it real to the child. In Ennis's case I feel he was *beaten down* mentally, emotionally, and probably pyhsically to follow rules and learned not to question them. I beleive he lost himself in that . It was ingrained in him that men like Jack are dealt with only in a violent way and had Ennis never met Jack and had the experience he had with him Ennis would have remained ( And yes, I'll say this ...a homophobe just like his father. Unfortunatly these teachings are passed down through generations . The loss of his father at that early age, may have been a blessing  as well as a tradgedy in the sense that his father was no longer around to continue his process of turning Ennis into a carbon copy of himself, totally full of hate and bitterness. But..., enough damage had already been done , Ennis wanted to please Jack. He wanted to be "good" as his father threatened him to be. ( do not form any opinions for yourself , Just do and think as I do attitude )  . Thought it right to be submissive to society and go with what his father taught and showed him. well...his father was just wrong but  Ennis carried all this fear into adulthood, He learned to hate  gays from his dad. And he learned to fear the unfamiliar. Perhaps had he been shown that Earl and Ray were just two people who were in love, his own relationship with long-suffering Jack would not have been so fraught with Guilt and shame  for loving who he wanted to love. He was shamed and unhappy as a child.In Jack's case, he was rejected by his father over and over," can't please my old man no how" His handling of rejection from Ennis  was hard to take as it was from his father and  it had to hurt, ( why don't you love and want me/) or the age old (What's wrong with ME? ) , but he continued to meet him whenever Ennis said. I think part of it was Jack's insatiable need to be accepted and loved.   He never gave up trying to find answers though which is what I admire most in Jack . His determination to find love never waiverd .He was a dreamer but within them were goals that proved elusive. When he was at the end of his rope in that last confrontation, maybe a part of him , the part his father rejected was reaching out .Wanting a complete , protected life with Ennis comes into focus even more . With Ennis , his dream love ,could make it possible for him never be rejected again...  So perhaps the traumas, these two suffered as children by the fathers made their connection stronger than they both realized.  These two found each other , but did they really find themselves?   :s)They seemed to find what was missing finally..in each other. Does this make any sense? These thoughts are only MHO.

[tpe]

Alot of us identify with Ennis's childhood traumas. When you grow up in a family where the father is super strict and has total and complete control , the children are forced to give up certain freedoms. perhaps this explains the withdrawn quiet, personality, and yes it makes you want to just give him a hug.  I have always beleived that we all are a products of our envirement. I think as children and in Ennis's case , the parent/parents instill in the kids THEIR basic values. Not necessaily the child's. Standards are set. Beleifs are instilled and fear  is ingrained to make it real to the child. In Ennis's case I feel he was *beaten down* mentally, emotionally, and probably pyhsically to follow rules and learned not to question them. I beleive he lost himself in that . It was ingrained in him that men like Jack are dealt with only in a violent way and had Ennis never met Jack and had the experience he had with him Ennis would have remained ( And yes, I'll say this ...a homophobe just like his father. Unfortunatly these teachings are passed down through generations . The loss of his father at that early age, may have been a blessing  as well as a tradgedy in the sense that his father was no longer around to continue his process of turning Ennis into a carbon copy of himself, totally full of hate and bitterness. But..., enough damage had already been done , Ennis wanted to please Jack. He wanted to be "good" as his father threatened him to be. ( do not form any opinions for yourself , Just do and think as I do attitude )  . Thought it right to be submissive to society and go with what his father taught and showed him. well...his father was just wrong but  Ennis carried all this fear into adulthood, He learned to hate  gays from his dad. And he learned to fear the unfamiliar. Perhaps had he been shown that Earl and Ray were just two people who were in love, his own relationship with long-suffering Jack would not have been so fraught with Guilt and shame  for loving who he wanted to love. He was shamed and unhappy as a child.In Jack's case, he was rejected by his father over and over," can't please my old man no how" His handling of rejection from Ennis  was hard to take as it was from his father and  it had to hurt, ( why don't you love and want me/) or the age old (What's wrong with ME? ) , but he continued to meet him whenever Ennis said. I think part of it was Jack's insatiable need to be accepted and loved.   He never gave up trying to find answers though which is what I admire most in Jack . His determination to find love never waiverd .He was a dreamer but within them were goals that proved elusive. When he was at the end of his rope in that last confrontation, maybe a part of him , the part his father rejected was reaching out .Wanting a complete , protected life with Ennis comes into focus even more . With Ennis , his dream love ,could make it possible for him never be rejected again...  So perhaps the traumas, these two suffered as children by the fathers made their connection stronger than they both realized.  These two found each other , but did they really find themselves?   :s)They seemed to find what was missing finally..in each other. Does this make any sense? These thoughts are only MHO.

Very interesting comparisons, aintfoolin. I love your analysis, especially what you said about Jack in the last meeting.  And their fathers do indeed peep out in any discussion of their sexuality.

In Jack's case, his need to love is certainly a reaction to his father's inability to express that love the way he hungered for it.  We can apply a Freudean twist to all this, and how if affected Jack's interaction with Ennis as a lover.

There is an unmistakable complementarity between the two of them.  In a sense, we can indeed say that Jack's sexuality can be said to be defined by Ennis and with Ennis.  The need for Ennis was a need for completeless.  In this sense, the search for oneself and for one's sexuality resided in the love for the other.

[welshwitch]

Maybe Ennis didn't remember much about his parents' relationship, but Jack had his in front of him whenever he was at home. Clearly John Twist had a pretty unemotional, uncommunicative relationship with his wife; possibly Jack reproduced that in his marriage to Lureen, with sex just there as a means of producing a child, and passion found elsewhere.

[tpe]

Maybe Ennis didn't remember much about his parents' relationship, but Jack had his in front of him whenever he was at home. Clearly John Twist had a pretty unemotional, uncommunicative relationship with his wife; possibly Jack reproduced that in his marriage to Lureen, with sex just there as a means of producing a child, and passion found elsewhere.

I suspect that Ennis remembered a great deal about his parents, perhpas even leveling some of the blame on them, no? 

With Jack, I think the past memories of loneliess and cruelty are softened by the continuing presence of both parents.  Perhaps the relationship changed over the years, especially when John Twist was concerned.  Jack was relatively independent in later life, and so was not subject to John Twist as he was in childhood.

Nonetheless, I think his sexuality is stamped with the terrible experiences he went through in childhood, and it would have been impossible to put all of this aside, IMO.

[manhattangirl]

In both men, Jack and Ennis, their fathers did in some way form them each emotionally, but I do also think that theirs mothers tempered them.   

Jack's mother for one, I believe, tried to keep Jack close to her, she went to church and took him with her, "Water Walking Jesus", he remembered it, sang it to Ennis, I think with fondness, but she had him with her.   Some women go to the church no matter what kind of church to find the strength to go on, and I believe married to a cold man like John Twist was a way to find the peace she may not have in her marriage.

Jack was not a violent man, or hard, he was loving, and loveable, which means to me he could be loved, and give it in return.   

Jack also I believe never got the acknowledgement of being a man by his father, that male to male respect that every son must seek from their father,  Jack Twist was a bitter, abusive man,  men such as him, fear their sons, "he's me", and sees themselves in their sons, seeing something they hate in themselves. 

 In the ss Jack didn't want children, I think his need for Ennis outweighed his need for anything else, he wanted the love of Ennis more than anything else, and was willing to give up everything for him.  Ennis filled that empty part of his life.   

He couldn't or wouldn't give up on Ennis.  So he stayed.  IMO

[tpe]

So how much of a Freudean veneer can we read in ack's relationship with his father and his mother?  It would seem than on the surface, it would seem to agree with such an interpretation, although the sexuality under consideration is clearly NOT heterosexual. 

For me, the feminine side of Jack's sexuality could have been a reaction to his father's monolithic masculinity, and to his mother's subservience to it.  In many ways, Jack seemed to be the opposite of his father, although it also seemed that Jack never stopped trying to please him.  Could Jack's sexuality be defined in terms of a unrequited love for the father figure? 

[manhattangirl]

Jack never eliminated his father out his life, he went back to him.   He couldn't please him, and he knew it, but he tried non the less.  But how does this play in sexuality?  Aren't we always trying to please our parents in one way or another, no matter if we are straight or gay.  This dynamic  doesn't determine one's sexual orientation, or am I wrong.

[tpe]

Jack never eliminated his father out his life, he went back to him.   He couldn't please him, and he knew it, but he tried non the less.  But how does this play in sexuality?  Aren't we always trying to please our parents in one way or another, no matter if we are straight or gay.  This dynamic  doesn't determine one's sexual orientation, or am I wrong.

Indeed, since Freud, relationships between children and their parents have ALWAYS been interpreted in terms of sublimated sexual yearnings -- either straight or gay. 

[manhattangirl]

It is said that we are attracted to some aspect of parents in our lovers, is that the case with Jack?   Ennis kept a lot of himself closed, but giving just enough to Jack to keep him coming back.  "I can't please him no way", Jack said of his father,   Jack did all he could to please Ennis, it still wasn't enough.

[tpe]

It is said that we are attracted to some aspect of parents in our lovers, is that the case with Jack?   Ennis kept a lot of himself closed, but giving just enough to Jack to keep him coming back.  "I can't please him no way", Jack said of his father,   Jack did all he could to please Ennis, it still wasn't enough.

True, and I wonder too if Jack sought something out that he yearned but never fully found in his father.  And Ennis provided it: unconditional love?

[jakesgirl]

i think i would have to agree with tpe that jack spent his life looking for what his father never gave him, unconditional  love.  when he found that with ennis he didn't want to let it go. 

[manhattangirl]

True, and I wonder too if Jack sought something out that he yearned but never fully found in his father.  And Ennis provided it: unconditional love?

Unconditional love?  I don't know about that.  Jack even during this long affair, still went outside of the relationship.  Seeking something, his frustration, his longing still wasn't appeased or met.  That "short leash" comment, was that just a dig at Ennis or was it how it really felt?   That comment always bothered me, it implied that there was always limits that Ennis put on Jack, anyway, that's how it seemed to me.    And Randall, in the background was in play, why would Randall even be in the picture?

If Ennis's love was unconditional, why didn't Jack feel it, know it, or even understand it?  What was the disconnect between Jack and Ennis?   

The day when Jack showed up at Ennis's after Ennis wrote of his divorce and Jack mistakenly went to him.   This showed to me, anyway, that even Ennis's love for Jack, did have boundaries, and that only when he could handle it and control it.  Ennis wasn't mentally ready for Jack to be there, it was uncomfortable, he was with daughters.   Ennis saw Jack as a threat to the image he always wanted to project to the outside world.  Was Ennis afraid of himself and that "thing" that lived inside him.  Jack couldn't be there, he had to go, "next month like we planned", he tells Jack.  It wasn't the right time, or the condition.   

[welshwitch]

Ennis is one of those people who can't cope with spontaneity or the unexpected - he likes to know what's going to happen and when and how. Jack isn't supposed to be there that time after the divorce, so he doesn't know what to do when Jack appears like an eager puppy, bouncing around in ennis's world when that world is centered on his two daughters. "A place for everything and everything in its place" would be Ennis's motto; Jack's place is out well away from Ennis's daily routine.

Jack is spontaneous and emotional; Ennis is not spontaneous and doesn't like to show emotions, other than anger, and even that only when it erupts uncontrollably. Had they ended up together, I think this would have caused problems because Jack would always have been looking for the kind of unexpected actions and words that he would never get.

[manhattangirl]

For Ennis the "a place for everything and everything in its place."  was due more to his uncontrollable need for Jack, then anything else.   When Jack is near Ennis fell back into that sexual control that Jack has over him. 

Ennis not only  had anger management problems, he also had the problem of not being able to resist Jack.   Jack's sexuality and Ennis need for him was the undercurrent to a lot his (being Ennis), torture.   He couldn't stop it, it erupted like his anger, Uncontrolled and unexpected. 

When Jack showed up unexpectedly, I believe I may be wrong, Ennis hands in his pockets, looking suspiciously at passing cars, was more afraid of himself then of Jack.   

Jack's was not afraid of his sexuality, Ennis was afraid of his, and was afraid of the effects it had on him, Jack was who he was, and at the same time  what he wanted from Jack, but not now, not yet.   

[tpe]

i think i would have to agree with tpe that jack spent his life looking for what his father never gave him, unconditional  love.  when he found that with ennis he didn't want to let it go. 

jakesgirl, I don't know if we are being too harsh on John Twist here, but I can't help thinking that Jack felt emasculated because he was never good enough for his father...

[tpe]

Unconditional love?  I don't know about that.  Jack even during this long affair, still went outside of the relationship.  Seeking something, his frustration, his longing still wasn't appeased or met.  That "short leash" comment, was that just a dig at Ennis or was it how it really felt?   That comment always bothered me, it implied that there was always limits that Ennis put on Jack, anyway, that's how it seemed to me.    And Randall, in the background was in play, why would Randall even be in the picture?

If Ennis's love was unconditional, why didn't Jack feel it, know it, or even understand it?  What was the disconnect between Jack and Ennis?   

The day when Jack showed up at Ennis's after Ennis wrote of his divorce and Jack mistakenly went to him.   This showed to me, anyway, that even Ennis's love for Jack, did have boundaries, and that only when he could handle it and control it.  Ennis wasn't mentally ready for Jack to be there, it was uncomfortable, he was with daughters.   Ennis saw Jack as a threat to the image he always wanted to project to the outside world.  Was Ennis afraid of himself and that "thing" that lived inside him.  Jack couldn't be there, he had to go, "next month like we planned", he tells Jack.  It wasn't the right time, or the condition.   

Hello manhattangirl.  Perhaps I confused you a little.  I was referring to Jack wanting unconditional love from his father.  I am in the opinion that Jack was constantly striving to please his father -- to no avail -- and he perhaps felt less of a man because of it.

[aintfoolin]

I feel jack was looking for acceptance too which he found in Ennis . Ennis did'nt expect nor want a Perfect partner in Jack He loved him just the way way he was . Goofy , charming and very engaging. These are traits opposite his father, but were just Jack being Jack. I think this is what drew Ennis to Jack and vice-verse. Both fathers robbed their sons of the freedom to just be. When they met on BBM, there was that sense of freedom to be themselves and to discover and be discovered by each other like they'd never known before. Almost like being born over again. A new life or beginning, so different from their miserable ,stifled and abusive childhoods. Jack's dad rejected his efforts to please him. Ennis's dad sounds like he just totally overwhelmed his son with fear, leaving Ennis with low confidence , an inability to find himself , and very little self esteem Both probably suffered at the hands of school peers , teachers, and other asscociates. When they were together on BBM, the slow, easy approach they took grew into a comfortable , accepting friendship first till Jack got an inkling that Ennis was open for more. then love.  Jack not only got the response from Ennis he wanted and needed , but found himself in the position of the one being pleased BY Ennis  in many ways and all he had to do was just be Jack. His dad never gave him that and he wanted to keep it. My opinion.

[tpe]

I feel jack was looking for acceptance too which he found in Ennis . Ennis did'nt expect nor want a Perfect partner in Jack He loved him just the way way he was . Goofy , charming and very engaging. These are traits opposite his father, but were just Jack being Jack. I think this is what drew Ennis to Jack and vice-verse. Both fathers robbed their sons of the freedom to just be. When they met on BBM, there was that sense of freedom to be themselves and to discover and be discovered by each other like they'd never known before. Almost like being born over again. A new life or beginning, so different from their miserable ,stifled and abusive childhoods. Jack's dad rejected his efforts to please him. Ennis's dad sounds like he just totally overwhelmed his son with fear, leaving Ennis with low confidence , an inability to find himself , and very little self esteem Both probably suffered at the hands of school peers , teachers, and other asscociates. When they were together on BBM, the slow, easy approach they took grew into a comfortable , accepting friendship first till Jack got an inkling that Ennis was open for more. then love.  Jack not only got the response from Ennis he wanted and needed , but found himself in the position of the one being pleased BY Ennis  in many ways and all he had to do was just be Jack. His dad never gave him that and he wanted to keep it. My opinion.

Yes, I think Jack was only too happy to be accepted for who he was, and Ennis did this for him, and he felt somehoe whole.  Sexually, Jack could express himself to Ennis on a level that went deeper than physical gratification.

It is this acceptance that he probably also tried to get from his father, and I have no doubt that Jack loved his father in his own way.  He must have, given that  he was forever seeking for his approval.  This stunted, one-way relationship probably had a lot to do with his sexual formation as an individual: Jack so wanted to be loved.  It was this need that defined him as a sexual being.  Meetings once or twice a year were not sufficient: he needed someone to love and love him back for keeps...

 

[manhattangirl]

Hello manhattangirl.  Perhaps I confused you a little.  I was referring to Jack wanting unconditional love from his father.  I am in the opinion that Jack was constantly striving to please his father -- to no avail -- and he perhaps felt less of a man because of it.

I never got that feeling Jack felt any less of a man,  he did want the acceptance by his father of his manhood, but all boys want that from their father's. I don't know if you're implying because of this that it contributed to his sexuality or not?  yes I'm confused.

This opens the subject of what Jack and Ennis experience each from their fathers and kind of men they eventually became.   Is due the experience each from their fathers.   Both men were violent and brutal men.   Jack was abused by his father, Ennis father might have taken a part in murder, which  he proudly displayed the murdered corpse to his nine year old son.

These experience alone can shape one's perception and value of human life, and maybe how they see themselves and the world outside.   

The question I have, is what made Jack and Ennis the men they were, and why they clung to something that made whole human beings more so together than when they were apart, and the deep love they had for each other, and did their love have conditions or not?

     

[tpe]

I never got that feeling Jack felt any less of a man,  he did want the acceptance by his father of his manhood, but all boys want that from their father's. I don't know if you're implying because of this that it contributed to his sexuality or not?  yes I'm confused.

Not exactly.  It didn't make him gay, if that's what you mean.  But it did help him become the emotive and sensitive lover that he became.  He expereinced this first hand, and made sure that he did not do the same with others.

Recall when Jack is side-stepped by his in-laws in the scene where they see the baby for the first time.  To me, it was clear that he felt emasculated in this instance.  He was the father, but it seemed that they treated him as some hired help outside the family circle.  This is what I meant by felling "less of a man".

Likewise, one can extrapolate this with his being unable to please his father.  The context is the same.

This opens the subject of what Jack and Ennis experience each from their fathers and kind of men they eventually became.   Is due the experience each from their fathers.   Both men were violent and brutal men.   Jack was abused by his father, Ennis father might have taken a part in murder, which  he proudly displayed the murdered corpse to his nine year old son.

These experience alone can shape one's perception and value of human life, and maybe how they see themselves and the world outside.   

The question I have, is what made Jack and Ennis the men they were, and why they clung to something that made whole human beings more so together than when they were apart, and the deep love they had for each other, and did their love have conditions or not?

Your last question is a bit more general than the current topic at hand (i.e., Jack's sexuality).  Would you care to start a new thread on this topic?  I don't recall it having been discussed before.

[aintfoolin]

 As we are children, we see our parents interact. We see how they relate to each other, how they show love for each other or the lack of it. Mr. Twist seemed a cold, hard man. He is "old school" of the highest level. He had an idea of what " a man " should be . Hard, set in his ways type of guy. In light of this fact/opinion of him , his wife no doubt suffered. She, herself was limited to a degree to which she could express her feelings and thoughts. Jack saw this as an impressionable child. Not only did he abuse Jack emotionally and pyhsically, he did her as well. She and Jack probably suffered as a team for a while until Jack left to find his own way ( or run off by this heartless man).  The difference in the relationship beween husband and wife, and the parents to the child are vastly different yet there is love. Seperate and somewhat equal. Of coursr Jack seemed closer to his moms even when older. He confided in her.  A trust, no doubt established in childhood. The acceptance Jack sought was provided by her when he was little and being impressed with his parent's relationship. Jack perhaps learned Rejection=Daddy---Protection and comfort=Mama. Perhaps this is part of what  he received even during his rodeoing. Cheers and adoration from the crowds probably provided some acceptance, a sense of accomplishment.  but these were strangers. He needed to feel love on a personal , human level. When he met Ennis, I beleive this is where he found it.  Here was someone whom he could relate to. Someone who could understand what he needed. Before any sex was had, there was a friendship, a bond, commonality. No one was trying judge him, berate him for trying but failing. Instead Ennis was givibg of himself in ways Jack understood for what it was. Jack's thoughts probably were :" wow, finally here is somebody who does'nt put me down" Shows genueine kindness just because it's nice to be nice. He understood this part of Ennis, no doubt a part he found endearing. Here was what he saw his mother doing. Accepting, caring. When Jack married Lureen, there was her dad, Same as his  own dad, same  old traits only with money. Jack felt the rejection again, someone close. This guy also had an idea of what " a man should be" . Tried to instill it in Jack's son at Thanksgiving dinner, until Jack had seen enough and told the old fart to " sit his ignorant ass down" And once again it was everything Jack was'nt and again Jack leaves to seek out the one person who knew and loved that showed him accepting kindness for just being who he really was. ..Ennis. I don't feel Ennis was rejecting this "thing" , that would be rejecting the one person he truly loved but , rejecting the part of him that he himself was taught to hate by his father, yet taught to love by Jack. He wanted to love Jack imo,  Grappled with two parts of himself. .Personally I think he was fighting a battle he could not win... and as long as he did this,therfore so was Jack.My thoughts. Thanks.

[tpe]

You touch on a number of things here, aintfoolin, that I also think shed more light on jack's sexuality and his love for Ennis.

I think what stands out is a need to be accepted.  THis is intertwined with his need to be loved, and this in turn defines his sexuality, to the extent that his desire is defined by a need to BE DESIRED