Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers

[frenchcda]

Y'all nailed this down, along with Jenny D.    This thread is gonna make me cry again

I can't take this anymore Jack

Ennis's last words to Jack

Just watched the movie again and read this thread and I cry again and again and again, cry me a river :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

[rpmnh]

In Jack and Ennis' last scene together, Ennis, at one point says something to the effect of "It's because of you I'm like this Jack..."

At every viewing, this piece of dialog has affected me intensely, but it also has left me wondering...

My question is, what is exactly Ennis referring to? Is he saying that because of Jack, he is essentially gay, but wouldn't be otherwise? Or is it something more general, like he is blaming Jack for stirring up all his emotions, good and bad, which has caused him confusion and turmoil in his life? Something else?

There are some insightful people in this forum, so let me know what you think.

[rikcub]

In Jack and Ennis' last scene together, Ennis, at one point says something to the effect of "It's because of you I'm like this Jack..."

At every viewing, this piece of dialog has affected me intensely, but it also has left me wondering...

My question is, what is exactly Ennis referring to? Is he saying that because of Jack, he is essentially gay, but wouldn't be otherwise? Or is it something more general, like he is blaming Jack for stirring up all his emotions, good and bad, which has caused him confusion and turmoil in his life? Something else?

There are some insightful people in this forum, so let me know what you think.

I have always thought that Ennis was referring to the bigger picture (not Jack in particular).  Ennis, because of his childhood, had a lot of internalized homophobia and couldn't reconcile that with his love for Jack.  I think when he said this he meant that Jack brought out that love and those feelings...deemed wrong by Wyoming society and because he couldn't fit into that societal mold he was lost....nothing and nowhere.  Even Annie Proulx makes it a point that this story is about homophobia...THAT is the true and bigger message of BBM.

[BBBOY]

[

I have always thought that Ennis was referring to the bigger picture (not Jack in particular).  Ennis, because of his childhood, had a lot of internalized homophobia and couldn't reconcile that with his love for Jack.  I think when he said this he meant that Jack brought out that love and those feelings...deemed wrong by Wyoming society and because he couldn't fit into that societal mold he was lost....nothing and nowhere.  Even Annie Proulx makes it a point that this story is about homophobia...THAT is the true and bigger message of BBM.
[/quote]

Annie, Larry and Dianna have all said the same thing about the story. Ennis is gay. He does't know it or understand it, but he is gay. The denial, the pain............been there done that. I have been very blessed. I have never experienced overt homophobia. I'd guess I am in the minority. What I have experienced is an internal homophobia very similar to what Ennis had.  I got over it in the 70's . Or rather I made other people get over it. Had Ennis been more than he was, had some ecducation, some experience perhaps things would have beee different for him. But he was trapped in his time, a world that could not forget or forgive. That world is still there and I weep for it.

[ethan]

Hello rpmnh, this is one of great lines from Ennis.

There have been two topics on this. Please check them out and add your discussion there if you like.

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=794.0
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1038.0

Because there are already two same topics. This one will be locked. Thanks.

Also, as a reference, there is an index topic showing topics that have been discussed. It is very helpful for the discussion.

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1504.0

[n061857]

I thought it was almost adorable...in an interesting way; Ennis was indirectly saying that his love for Jack was so deep that it blew him off his feet and messed up his entire life.

I agree with you here.  I don't think Ennis was really blaming Jack.  I think he was trying to tell him how much he loved him.  Jack just went through a whole soliloquy about how dissatisfied he was with the relationship, that Ennis didn't love him enough to share his life with him.  I took it to mean, "How can you think I don't love you enough.  Look what my love for you has done to my life.  I have lost everything.......my wife, my daughters, numerous jobs, my self-respect."  Have you ever tried to explain the depth of your love to another by telling them how that love has effected your life, whether it be positive or negative.  I think this is what Ennis is doing here.    I don't think Ennis is blaming Jack for it.  I think he realizes that it is his love for Jack (that he chose to give), that has done this to him. 

I do; however, feel that he is also trying to justify his need to work in August.  He has quit so many jobs for Jack, that jobs are becoming harder to come by (he is less marketable).  So, Jack shouldn't blame him for not making it in August. 

Although at that moment I don't think that entered his mind.  He is just staying,  "Look at me, Jack.  It is because of my love for you and my guilt and shame inherent in that they I have been an empty shell of a man."

This is the most gut wrenching scene in the whole movie to me.

[matsuki33]

well the look on his eyes, his voice and how he was shaking was truly amazing that Ennis was atonished of what he just had discovered the man he loved was cheating him with other "guys" in Mexico and who knows where else. that ennis was destroyed and the words "i wish i knew a way to quit you" was a shoot to his heart. he said that because he was telling Jack that he was the one for him, there was no one else for Ennis rather than Jack and he have lost all the things people could think was important for him. but he didn't care as long that Jack was with him he was ok but hearing that for Jack was not enough and he have being getting from others what he wanted was a big hit for him. he probably felt that all his relationship with Jack was a facade and that what Jack only wanted was f*ck with him. he felt extremely sad. he gave up a lot of his things just because jack, he was nothing and at the same time he was Ennis because Jack was still with him.

[n061857]

I am so glad to hear from someone whose sympathies are with Ennis.  Although I feel VERY sorry for Jack, the debt of my sympathy for Ennis is unsurpassed.

[chrissy323]

I am so glad to hear from someone whose sympathies are with Ennis.  Although I feel VERY sorry for Jack, the debt of my sympathy for Ennis is unsurpassed.

I feel sorry for the both of them; for not once being able to say how much they really meant to each other. 

My feeling is that the hurtful exchange they had at the end was precipitated by Ennis' lack of response the night before to Jack's "Sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it". I think that hurt Jack more than anything.

If you look at his expression that morning, I think he looks sadder and more unhappy than if it was just them parting for another long period of time; because of Ennis' lack of response, there was something more going on between them. Ennis told Jack to lighten up on him, but Jack hurt too much to do so, so he lashed out with the whole "I wish I knew how to quit you" speech.

[n061857]

Thanks Chrissie,  I hate to admit I think so much like Ennis that I sometimes have trouble seeing the other point of view.  I hadn't thought of that.  Thanks for pointing it out.

[matsuki33]

well chrissy323 i need to admit you got a point there jack was so hurt also  :'(

[masetane]

After he says "why don't you then. It's because of you I'm like this...."   What does he say after?  He's a nobody going no where? 
Because he can't sort out his feelings right?

I didn't notice this the first time I saw the movie but when Jack then hugs Ennis he says "Damn  you Ennis."  I thought that was so sad, he knows he loves him and when Ennis breaks down, he realizes Ennnis can't help it and he can't help his feelings for Ennis.   

[tpe]

Hello, masetane.

I think there is already a thread devotede to this subject and ther meaning of the words exchanged.  I shall try to find it and merge this thread with it.

You will find the index of topics at the top of the page helpful. 

[orangetruck]

I feel sorry for the both of them; for not once being able to say how much they really meant to each other. 

My feeling is that the hurtful exchange they had at the end was precipitated by Ennis' lack of response the night before to Jack's "Sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it". I think that hurt Jack more than anything.

If you look at his expression that morning, I think he looks sadder and more unhappy than if it was just them parting for another long period of time; because of Ennis' lack of response, there was something more going on between them. Ennis told Jack to lighten up on him, but Jack hurt too much to do so, so he lashed out with the whole "I wish I knew how to quit you" speech.

Well said. With all due respect, he had it comin'. It was bound to happen, and blame wasn't necessarily one's or the other's. It's a blameless situation really, with too much space between opportunities to express what they felt for each other. Jack was being probably more honest than he could have even figured of himself when he said "I wish I knew how to quit you". Really I don't think there could have been any more holding back once this gateway unlatched - - it was time for confession, and this didn't sit well with Ennis.

[tpe]

Well said. With all due respect, he had it comin'. It was bound to happen, and blame wasn't necessarily one's or the other's. It's a blameless situation really, with too much space between opportunities to express what they felt for each other. Jack was being probably more honest than he could have even figured of himself when he said "I wish I knew how to quit you". Really I don't think there could have been any more holding back once this gateway unlatched - - it was time for confession, and this didn't sit well with Ennis.

It is moving tro see this thread once again.

Ennis's "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this" and Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" are pendants to each other.  They both express an ambiguous hidden admission.  In Jack's, it was an indirect admission that he couldn't quit Ennis.  With Ennis, it was an admission that he wasn't in control after all.

[orangetruck]

It is moving tro see this thread once again.

Ennis's "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this" and Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" are pendants to each other.  They both express an ambiguous hidden admission.  In Jack's, it was an indirect admission that he couldn't quit Ennis.  With Ennis, it was an admission that he wasn't in control after all.

Yes.
A couple notes off of this, and they both ambiguously suggest they can't help but love each other. Not that they knew this of course.

[tpe]

Yes.
A couple notes off of this, and they both ambiguously suggest they can't help but love each other. Not that they knew this of course.

A higher power controls them -- no matter how hard they try to hide this, it cannot be suppressed.

[orangetruck]

A higher power controls them -- no matter how hard they try to hide this, it cannot be suppressed.

On so many levels: Yes 

[tpe]

Which is why this whole subject reminds me of a phrase I read once (Gore Vidal?) -- something about being toys of some god, who lifts us, only to break us.  I think this is so apt, when we view the last confrontation.  It is generally true about love.  Perversely, the Last Confrontation IS a love scene.

[orangetruck]

Which is why this whole subject reminds me of a phrase I read once (Gore Vidal?) -- something about being toys of some god, who lifts us, only to break us.  I think this is so apt, when we view the last confrontation.  It is generally true about love.  Perversely, the Last Confrontation IS a love scene.

Oh I like it.

Perversity from a real high level 

[smartestsonia]

Intersting topic Thomas..As we all know that Jack is the only man Ennis truely loved and cherished and he never could let go of Jack..he held on to him for 20 years....I had earlier told in the past in another post that Ennis could never love a man the way he loved Jack..IMO if Jack would not have come into his life then due to his fears he would have never ever been with another man...However, Jack made him feel so very comfortable after FNIT and SNIT and nurtured their relationship...Ennis never would have had that with anyone else..even his wife could not replace that...Ennis knew how much Jack meant to him and in a way Jack became his weakness.....he lived a life of fear, disappointment and grief..Jack is not to be blamed at all and neither Ennis..I think its the circumstances that provoked Ennis to react so...he couldnt accept the fact that inspite of his deep love for Jack which actually changed his entire life and he lost so much in the bargain, Jack went to Mexico..After that when Jack told him that he wished that he could quit him made Ennis heart burn and he felt that his love was not sufficient to Jack as he did goto Mexico..this made him angry as well as so hurt that he said the words that he is nobody and nowhere...

Ennis also said that in frustration too..sometimes in anger we say things what we technically dont mean...I mean he dint mean to say that Jack is the root cause of all problems...I think it was both of them who had a contribution to the relationship....Ennis felt that his life is nothing as he had a failed marriage, he was not spending much time with his children and he had to supress all this true feelings for Jack...he felt like he is about to lose all that he has and that made him say that he is nobody and nowhere..Oh God there is so much pain in those words..its like as if his world has fallen apart...

My heart goes out to both of them as all they wanted was each other but could not get that completely...Jack wanted Ennis and was willing to take the risk of living together and Ennis could not do that as his fears overpowered his love at times....I am in pain to even imagine that...

[tpe]

Thanks orangetruck and smartestsonia.

Sometimes we do say things in anger, but you know, sometimes, those are the times when we are most honest about ourselves and to others.  Whether or not Ennis was justified in saying those harsh words, it does not change the fact that THAT was how he felt -- that he was trapped between his love for Jack and his own deep-seated fears.  One certainly feels for them -- are we not is one way or another victims of the same conflicts?  With Jack, Ennis's words did sort of become a sort of revelation  to him.  Jack understood that with these harsh words, Ennis inadvertently showed how powerless he was against the force of love.

[orangetruck]

Thanks orangetruck and smartestsonia.

Sometimes we do say things in anger, but you know, sometimes, those are the times when we are most honest about ourselves and to others.  Whether or not Ennis was justified in saying those harsh words, it does not change the fact that THAT was how he felt -- that he was trapped between his love for Jack and his own deep-seated fears.  One certainly feels for them -- are we not is one way or another victims of the same conflicts?  With Jack, Ennis's words did sort of become a sort of revelation  to him.  Jack understood that with these harsh words, Ennis inadvertently showed how powerless he was against the force of love.

Hear hear 

[smartestsonia]

Thanks orangetruck and smartestsonia.

Sometimes we do say things in anger, but you know, sometimes, those are the times when we are most honest about ourselves and to others.  Whether or not Ennis was justified in saying those harsh words, it does not change the fact that THAT was how he felt -- that he was trapped between his love for Jack and his own deep-seated fears.  One certainly feels for them -- are we not is one way or another victims of the same conflicts?  With Jack, Ennis's words did sort of become a sort of revelation  to him.  Jack understood that with these harsh words, Ennis inadvertently showed how powerless he was against the force of love.

Thanks Thomas     I completely agree with ya....I personally feel that it is true both ways..When one is angry and frustrated all his repressed emotions come out as his head is out of control and whatever is in the heart is out..On the other hand sometimes there is a tendency to exaggerate and not mean every word..This is off topic but even when people r drunk its the same...either they will tell all that is in their heart or just talk stuff that they don't completely mean...

As for Ennis in that scene when he told Jack that he is nothing and nowhere is the horrible and deep seated feelings of losing everything...he felt so empty in his life..he felt like a failure..and then when he says that to Jack, it pains Jack too and he hugs him and wants him to calm down...I was watching that scene online and I really could empathize with Ennis as he felt so helpless..his fears and so many disappointments in life had made him so vulnerable...his true and strong love for Jack took him so far and led him to where he was that day

[tpe]

What is sad about this scene is that Ennis couldn't admit that Jack was the only person who gave true/authentic meaning to his life, and that everything else was based on a pretense of being somebody he definitely was not.  With Jack's death, we see the authenticity finally making headway in his putting his love for his daughter above other more mundane things.  If there is anything good that cam out of this tragedy, it was that it taught Ennis not to take love for granted.

[hippiewannabe]

I definitely saw Ennis' "I'm nowhere" etc. to mean that Jack came into his life and opened Ennis' eyes and heart to unconditional love, something he'd never felt before.  I don't think he was trying to hurt Jack.  Remember, Ennis has trouble with verbal expression - he feels emotions deeply but can't find a way to say them out loud, like Jack can.  When Jack said the "sometimes I miss you so much" line the night before, I get the feeling that Ennis' mind is churning away - wondering just how he can convey to Jack the enormous depth of his feelings. 

Shoulda, woulda, coulda - I'm sure Ennis would have found the words had he known this was his last time with Jack.  This scene especially gets the lump forming in my throat - I cry every time I see it - I want to magically transport them both to a time and place where they can be together, in the open, loving each other.  BBM is truly the most beautiful love story I've ever seen.

[tpe]

I definitely saw Ennis' "I'm nowhere" etc. to mean that Jack came into his life and opened Ennis' eyes and heart to unconditional love, something he'd never felt before.  I don't think he was trying to hurt Jack.  Remember, Ennis has trouble with verbal expression - he feels emotions deeply but can't find a way to say them out loud, like Jack can.  When Jack said the "sometimes I miss you so much" line the night before, I get the feeling that Ennis' mind is churning away - wondering just how he can convey to Jack the enormous depth of his feelings. 

Shoulda, woulda, coulda - I'm sure Ennis would have found the words had he known this was his last time with Jack.  This scene especially gets the lump forming in my throat - I cry every time I see it - I want to magically transport them both to a time and place where they can be together, in the open, loving each other.  BBM is truly the most beautiful love story I've ever seen.

You are certainly not alone in feeling this way, hippiewannabe.

Many of us also feel that "I'm nowhere" refers to Ennis's indebtedness to Jack --for opening up Ennis's eyes and heart, as you say so beautifully.

[atalley]

WOW!  I don't know how I've missed this topic.  I think it may be the best yet.  I agree that both were hurt & Jack wanted to get everything out on the table.  All these yrs. of waiting for his c & c operation (his dream) were coming to an end.  Yes, he'd been "driven" to Mexico to have his needs met, but he couldn't quit Ennis if he wanted to.  They were soulmates, & he knew it.  Ennis then lets him know that he (Jack) is the reason he changes jobs, has nothing, is nobody.  When Ennis breaks down, there is NO WAY that Jack could just stand there w/ his back to him.  He had to comfort Ennis & let him know he's there for him & will always love him.  It's then that Ennis admits "I just can't stand this no more, Jack".  All of the lies, etc. of the past 20 yrs. were crashing down on him.

I also think that this is why he broke it off w/ Cassie.  He didn't want to keep living a lie.  My ? is...why did he drive away & not look back?

[smartestsonia]

WOW!  I don't know how I've missed this topic.  I think it may be the best yet.  I agree that both were hurt & Jack wanted to get everything out on the table.  All these yrs. of waiting for his c & c operation (his dream) were coming to an end.  Yes, he'd been "driven" to Mexico to have his needs met, but he couldn't quit Ennis if he wanted to.  They were soulmates, & he knew it.  Ennis then lets him know that he (Jack) is the reason he changes jobs, has nothing, is nobody.  When Ennis breaks down, there is NO WAY that Jack could just stand there w/ his back to him.  He had to comfort Ennis & let him know he's there for him & will always love him.  It's then that Ennis admits "I just can't stand this no more, Jack".  All of the lies, etc. of the past 20 yrs. were crashing down on him.

I also think that this is why he broke it off w/ Cassie.  He didn't want to keep living a lie.  My ? is...why did he drive away & not look back?

It makes me wonder the same. I have come across people who when r upset like to be alone..I am not like that at all..But I know people who r ..Ennis felt that his whole world is crumbling down and he just wanted to weep by himself..He already showed Jack how vulnerable he became..When he clamed down he did want to meet up with Jack and clear things but we all know what tragedy followed that :\'( :\'(

[tpe]

WOW!  I don't know how I've missed this topic.  I think it may be the best yet.  I agree that both were hurt & Jack wanted to get everything out on the table.  All these yrs. of waiting for his c & c operation (his dream) were coming to an end.  Yes, he'd been "driven" to Mexico to have his needs met, but he couldn't quit Ennis if he wanted to.  They were soulmates, & he knew it.  Ennis then lets him know that he (Jack) is the reason he changes jobs, has nothing, is nobody.  When Ennis breaks down, there is NO WAY that Jack could just stand there w/ his back to him.  He had to comfort Ennis & let him know he's there for him & will always love him.  It's then that Ennis admits "I just can't stand this no more, Jack".  All of the lies, etc. of the past 20 yrs. were crashing down on him.

I also think that this is why he broke it off w/ Cassie.  He didn't want to keep living a lie.  My ? is...why did he drive away & not look back?

I think we had speculated somewhere about Ennis probably looking back at Jack as he drove away.  We can't tell for sure..

But why did he drive off at that moment.  Because it was too much for their hearts at that moment.  Ennis breaking off with Cassie happened after he had time to reflect about the events of the Last Confrontation.  The cange was very slight, but arguably deep.