Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers

[jimnick]

They weere two people that meet by chance on a job herding sheep.  If it were someone else, not Jack Twist, we would not have this story.  Jack and Ennis have a chemistry that makes them doomed (?) to fall in love.  It is not because of Jack that Ennis is what he is, it is the primal attraction for each other that is why they both are what they are.  It is because Ennis is ALSO attracted to Jack as much as Jack is attracted to Ennis. 

I think there is someone for everyone out there whether they are straight or not that we could have a realtionship like Jack's and Ennis's.  The end might be different for each one of us.

Talk about chemistry...

From the short story..."His shaking hand grazed Ennis's hand, electrical current snapped between them. "

I mean... like Wow!

Jim

[sharve]

This is a very interesting thread indeed.

Ennis is not accusing Jack of his misfortune. He is telling him what a terrible failure he is and how helpless he is in that he doesn't know how to deal with the situation in which he finds himself.

You see, Ennis is homosexual; that is how he was born and that is what he will always be. But his unbringing, religious, social and other, and in the context of where he lived and worked, would have none of it. He would repress who he was all his life and would do what was expected of him to the best of his capabilities. But that was not how it was to be.

You see, by some strange coincidence, he found himself on BBM in 1963 with Jack Twist and everything changed. All the conditions were met in order that his innate true self be expressed. He connected with Jack and their bond was one that happens rarely and it influenced his life forever afterwards.

When he decided to continue his life with Alma, and after, it was a disaster. He denied himself a life with the only person that ever meant anything to him, and that, for all the wrong reasons. I am sure he was continually haunted by Jack every day of his miserable existence, and that, prevented him from going anywhere. The only person who loved him, with whom he was comfortable, at ease, happy, for whom he felt important, who didn't judge him, who would always be there for him, well, he just couldn't be there. So he was nobody, nowhere...

Jack and Ennis saw each other on rare occasions and then, only for brief encounters. Have you ever thought of the times in between? What do you think it was like for Ennis to come down from the mountain after a few days with Jack and return to his everday life? Frankly, I don't kow how he did it. I can understand that he felt he was a failure.

So you see, he's saying how he doesn't know how to take control of a disastrous situation.

"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."

Your thoughts...

[rikcub]

gjz24 brought up this question regarding a troubling part of the last meeting of Ennis and Jack.  Let me paraphrase this passage from the movie (which, btw, is totally absent from the story):

Jack:  I wish I knew how to quit you...

Ennis: Then why don't you?  Why don't you let me be?  It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...

Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel.  Is it true?  What did Ennis mean by such an accusation?  Was Jack to blame for much of his pain?  Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)?  Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?

Your thoughts...

At this point Ennis felt his life had been a failure because he had not played by the rules.  I think he was lashing out at Jack because of what Jack represented...those desires Ennis had to love another man.  Remember the gruesome scene he witnessed as a boy...he was scarred by that and on many levels I think believed he was being punished.  Jack represented all those things to him because he actually did dare to love Jack.

[tpe]

This is a very interesting thread indeed.

Ennis is not accusing Jack of his misfortune. He is telling him what a terrible failure he is and how helpless he is in that he doesn't know how to deal with the situation in which he finds himself.

You see, Ennis is homosexual; that is how he was born and that is what he will always be. But his unbringing, religious, social and other, and in the context of where he lived and worked, would have none of it. He would repress who he was all his life and would do what was expected of him to the best of his capabilities. But that was not how it was to be.

You see, by some strange coincidence, he found himself on BBM in 1963 with Jack Twist and everything changed. All the conditions were met in order that his innate true self be expressed. He connected with Jack and their bond was one that happens rarely and it influenced his life forever afterwards.

When he decided to continue his life with Alma, and after, it was a disaster. He denied himself a life with the only person that ever meant anything to him, and that, for all the wrong reasons. I am sure he was continually haunted by Jack every day of his miserable existence, and that, prevented him from going anywhere. The only person who loved him, with whom he was comfortable, at ease, happy, for whom he felt important, who didn't judge him, who would always be there for him, well, he just couldn't be there. So he was nobody, nowhere...

Jack and Ennis saw each other on rare occasions and then, only for brief encounters. Have you ever thought of the times in between? What do you think it was like for Ennis to come down from the mountain after a few days with Jack and return to his everday life? Frankly, I don't kow how he did it. I can understand that he felt he was a failure.

So you see, he's saying how he doesn't know how to take control of a disastrous situation.

"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."

Your thoughts...

There more than a grain of truth in what you say.  I do think Jack was THE MEANING in Ennis' life.  That was how he got thru most of the 20 years without remarrying and not fooling around with others.  Two or more shared trips to Brokeback Mountain with Jack each year was enough to sustain him.  Indeed, as Jack said:  'I'm not like you...'

[rabjr1]

This is a very interesting thread indeed.

Ennis is not accusing Jack of his misfortune. He is telling him what a terrible failure he is and how helpless he is in that he doesn't know how to deal with the situation in which he finds himself.

You see, Ennis is homosexual; that is how he was born and that is what he will always be. But his unbringing, religious, social and other, and in the context of where he lived and worked, would have none of it. He would repress who he was all his life and would do what was expected of him to the best of his capabilities. But that was not how it was to be.

You see, by some strange coincidence, he found himself on BBM in 1963 with Jack Twist and everything changed. All the conditions were met in order that his innate true self be expressed. He connected with Jack and their bond was one that happens rarely and it influenced his life forever afterwards.

When he decided to continue his life with Alma, and after, it was a disaster. He denied himself a life with the only person that ever meant anything to him, and that, for all the wrong reasons. I am sure he was continually haunted by Jack every day of his miserable existence, and that, prevented him from going anywhere. The only person who loved him, with whom he was comfortable, at ease, happy, for whom he felt important, who didn't judge him, who would always be there for him, well, he just couldn't be there. So he was nobody, nowhere...

Jack and Ennis saw each other on rare occasions and then, only for brief encounters. Have you ever thought of the times in between? What do you think it was like for Ennis to come down from the mountain after a few days with Jack and return to his everday life? Frankly, I don't kow how he did it. I can understand that he felt he was a failure.

So you see, he's saying how he doesn't know how to take control of a disastrous situation.

"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."

Your thoughts...

There more than a grain of truth in what you say.  I do think Jack was THE MEANING in Ennis' life.  That was how he got thru most of the 20 years without remarrying and not fooling around with others.  Two or more shared trips to Brokeback Mountain with Jack each year was enough to sustain him.  Indeed, as Jack said:  'I'm not like you...'

They never went back to Brokeback Mountain, they went everywhere else skirting BB but never back. (my opinion)

[rabjr1]

Here's a thought:

Ennis made sure he took jobs that he could take time off or quit in order to be with Jack a couple times a year.  This is also why Ennis is upset, Jack had it made with a rich wife.  Ennis's whole economic career is dependent on being able to accomadate Jack - he made the greatest sacrifice in this respect.

But then Jack was the one who could travel (better vehicle?) the distance to see Ennis.

My idea of a long distance relationship is with someone in the next zipcode.  Did the long distance, didn't work, bad break. 

[monicita]

Yes. I feel that Ennis would have stayed *straight* most likely if he had not met Jack.
 I will tell you that a LOT of older people think that GAY people are made not born that way<sigh>

Poor Ennis. : (

J

I'm neither very old (39) nor straight (I'm bi) and I believe that people are neither born straight nor gay. There are very different ways of looking at that question. Certainly you can look at it in a conservative "they just have to choose the right way and they can be straight if they want to" way. But you could also choose to look at it in a way that says: There are as many different ways of defining your sexuality as there are different people. And cutting it all down to genetics (a very dangerous thing to do, I might add. All that crap about identifying the "gay gene". Who says they won't try to eradicate it, once they have supposedly identified it?) makes it all seem so very bleak to me. What happened to the great deconstructivist movement, where it was taken for granted that society is what forms us and that we can think outside the box and hopefully, at some time in the future be what we want to be, all of us. That we can change the future, change society, change everything. Where does all this horrible determinism come from (god, or nature or something or other made us like this and this is what we are, for ever).

 I do understand that this is a reaction to fundamentalism, maybe a rather helpless reaction: If we say we are born a certain way, nobody can tell us to be different. And I understand the fear that lies behind this. But it makes us lose so much, if we are no longer able to see that nothing, nothing at all is preordained, not sex, not gender, not being straight, gay, bi or whatever. Let's reclaim our lives and our sexual identities. Nobody is going to tell me  I was "born" bisexual. Especially not anybody who would want to turn me straight. I am what I am and I choose what I am and I'm proud of it!

monicita

[JennyD]

Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel.  Is it true?  What did Ennis mean by such an accusation?  Was Jack to blame for much of his pain?  Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)?  Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?

Your thoughts...

I know that I will probably be in the minority here but I took it to mean that it was because Jack seduced him and changed him from being straight,and messed up his life.
Disclaimer! I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU MAKE SOMEONE GAY.
J

j, this is an interesting point of view.  But now that you said it, it does seem plausible, given Ennis' inherent homophobia (and his denial of it)...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The romantic in me believs that quote was Ennis' way of saying "I love you, Jack and because I love you so much, I can't function within my own life".

Jenny D
_______________________________________________________________________________

[jimnick]

I agree with you, JennyD.

Jim

[tpe]

I agree with you, JennyD.

Jim

I second.  JennyD, I do think you have gotten to the root of it all.

[coguaro]

Yes JennyD... thats syntheticaly what I also think

..I want Ennis..

baci
coguaro

[camom]

I agree with JennyD also, and to go even further, I think Ennis also meant "because I love you so much and I can't have you" (in the traditional sense of setting up house, etc.).  Ennis is a very tortured soul.  I hope that at least Jack understood that, although Ennis was difficult, he really did give up everything for Jack's sake.

camom

[gjz24]

Yesterday, When I wrote " Can't you see that I love you too, you son of bitch." I was so repressed because just thinking about Ennis personalty, he is so so...I wanna scream out for he. Actually what I thought were much more than that. The biggest part is fear. What Ennis wanna say is" don't push me, I've tried everything I can. You have no idea how painful I feel. Please do not go to Mexico, do not give up on me. You mean too much to me also and I cannot quit you too, I am so scared. You are my only love, donot let me suffer more pain." Too bad, he cannot let Jack know that...

[jimnick]

Yesterday, When I wrote " Can't you see that I love you too, you son of bitch." I was so repressed because just thinking about Ennis personalty, he is so so...I wanna scream out for he. Actually what I thought were much more than that. The biggest part is fear. What Ennis wanna say is" don't push me, I've tried everything I can. You have on idea how painful I feel.  Do not go to Mexico, please do not give up on me. I cannot quit you too, I am so scared. You are my only love, donot let me suffer more pain." Too bad, he cannot let Jack know that...

...and, ...yeah!  He means all those things.

They are so in love with each other!

"E+J"

Jim

[Apollonos]

...and, ...yeah!  He means all those things.

They are so in love with each other!

Yeah, he does. They both do, but Annie Proulx describes them as inarticulate, uneducated boys. As I see it, one of their most tragic flaws is their inability to communicate their feelings to each other. This causes endless grief to both of them, and it's one of the reasons why BBM is so heartbreaking.  :'(

[Patriot1]

The only person who loved him, with whom he was comfortable, at ease, happy, for whom he felt important, who didn't judge him, who would always be there for him, well, he just couldn't be there. So he was nobody, nowhere...

In fact, didn't Alma recognize this in Ennis when, in the kitchen, she told him (and I am really paraphrasing here) that he was always miserable before he went on these "fishing" trips but when he came back he came back glowing?


You know, after reading this entire thread, I am wondering if straight men are going to understand it any better than we are.  Someone, (can not remember who) said in an interview, they did not want to make this just a gay movie with a limited audience. 

[christie wood]

I agree with JennyD.....what I took from that line was that because of how he was, unable to express his true feelings for Jack, he would either use his fists or verbal punches to hurt Jack, but only because he couldn't express his true thoughts.  I love that line though, it is SO emotional, he is so in love with Jack, but he is always holding back.

Also, on this scene, when Jack is saying to Ennis "I'll tell you this one time......." about how Ennis keeps him on a short leash, etc, if you look at Ennis during Jack's speech, Ennis has his head down, looking away from Jack, but I thought he was crying, or was trying his hardest to keep from crying.  Did others see that or was it just wishful thinking on my part?

[jimnick]

Also, on this scene, when Jack is saying to Ennis "I'll tell you this one time......." about how Ennis keeps him on a short leash, etc, if you look at Ennis during Jack's speech, Ennis has his head down, looking away from Jack, but I thought he was crying, or was trying his hardest to keep from crying.  Did others see that or was it just wishful thinking on my part?

I don't think it was wishful thinking on your part.  I think your perception is keen.  Ennis felt the walls caving in in his heart before he collapsed to the ground on the outside.

My heart is broken for them both.

Jim

[christie wood]

Jim

What a great way of describing it - he felt the walls caving in - yeah, that is so right.  It was like he was shielding himself from the things Jack was saying to him by turning his back, keeping his head down, it was like he was having stones thrown at him.  But ultimately, it is because he knows Jack is right - Ennis has been keeping Jack at arm's length and knows that this not fair to him, but it's to protect himself from revealing his inner most thoughts - and the main thought being that he loves Jack, and always will.

God I can see that scene now, when Ennis collapses, in to Jack's arms.  Both heartbroken at their situation.

[jimnick]

Christie:

You're getting me all gushy and welled up inside and I have to go now to work.

Have a good day, and keep posting!

Thanks,

Jim

[christie wood]

Hi Jim

I'm constantly gushy and weepy since seeing BBM!!!!!

And I am at work.....I cannot concentrate on ANYTHING other than being on this forum..... I think I may get sacked soon. 

Help, I have a severe case of Ennis and Jack-itis!!!!

[Buddy]

These posts are tearing me up. Why can't I quit this website?
I guess most of us are resigned to be

gushy

for quite a while.
Incredible what this movie has done to our psyches.

[ethan]

[camom]

This isn't in the screenplay, but after the "I'm nothing.  I'm nowhere." line, when Jack is holding Ennis and Ennis is clutching him (see pic in previous post), Jack says something like, "I can't take this anymore, Jack."  Can someone verify this line for me so I can write it in my screenplay?

I'm going to try for my 5th viewing tomorrow.

camom

[cartman]

Ennis: Then why don't you?  Why don't you let me be?  It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...

I understood it that until Jack came along Ennis was in denial of his sexuality and if he and Jack would never have been together on the mountain he wouldnīt have had any oppurtunities to explore it. If Ennis hadnīt known the bliss of being so much in love (with Jack) he would have been happier and more content in his marriage and not longing for something he couldnīt have. Jack also had a grip on him nobody else had and Ennis opened up to him and told him more than he seems to have told anybody else.

His upbringing must have had a lot to do with it - seeing the man who was killed and beaten for being gay must have had a big impact on him. Also being a loner for the biggest part of his childhood must have marked him and makes it almost impossible for him to show and express his feelings.

In this quote Ennis is completely lost - he doesnīt feel like he belongs anywhere, feels like people are looking at him in the streets and he just isnīt normal. He canīt be true to himself, he canīt tell anybody the truth and he canīt hide the truth as Jack knows it all and is like an addictive drug to him. He wants to be with Jack but is scared what will happen and how others will react. Ennis feels like heīs an outcast from society, he isnīt like the regular guys and nobody would accept him like he really is.

I also felt that he was trying to protect Jack by not wanting to live with him, protect him from the fate the guy from his childhood had. And when he pictures how Jack died I feel like he realised that all his effort and sacrifice had been pointless in the end as Jack died/was killed nevertheless.

[monicita]

Ennis: Then why don't you?  Why don't you let me be?  It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...

I also felt that he was trying to protect Jack by not wanting to live with him, protect him from the fate the guy from his childhood had. And when he pictures how Jack died I feel like he realised that all his effort and sacrifice had been pointless in the end as Jack died/was killed nevertheless.

Hey, this is an interesting idea: That Ennis was trying to protect Jack as well as himself by not wanting to live with him. Getting all depressed, just thinking of Ennis's loneliness. sob  :-[

Monicita

[ranchgal]

Also, the very last part of the story says (paraphrasing, don't have it right in front of me) "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, and if you can't fix it, you got a stand it." 

I took this to mean that he KNEW Jack was murdered, but he wanted to BELIEVE it was an accident.  So in some part his grief was due to having to "stand" knowing Jack was murdered, probably while he (Jack) was searching for a temporary substitute for Ennis.  That would tie into his "Jack, I swear..." which I believe meant many, many things--all his regrets, all the unexpressed love, the repression, the rejections of Jack--clearly more than he was able to verbalize.

Now I always felt exactly the opposite---Jack died from the accident, and Ennis felt he had to believe he was murdered.   Personally, I do think he died from the accident, and Ennis is so repressed from his childhood, he can't accept it as being that simple so in his mind, it has to be the tire iron----but I want it to the accident---so in my mind it is.   simple as that.

and that is the last line, about his having some distance between what he knew and what he wanted to believe.    Ennis couldn't accept bad luck, he had to feel there was something/one to blame for Jack's being gone.

I think that the "I'm nowhere, no one"  is a statement on Ennis and Jacks always coming back to each other.   Ennis could never get ahead doing what he chose to do for a living, because when Jack called, Ennis came, and if he had to quit where he was to get away he did, and you can't ever get ahead of any game, if you don't try to stick it.   And he never did, till he needed child support money--then he didn't have a choice---and it cost him with Jack too--so I think he was making a statement more about his overall human condition in his relationship with Jack,  not necessarily about having confusion about who/what he is.

[alicat]

I know that I will probably be in the minority here but I took it to mean that it was because Jack seduced him and changed him from being straight,and messed up his life.
Disclaimer! I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU MAKE SOMEONE GAY.
J

j, this is an interesting point of view.  But now that you said it, it does seem plausible, given Ennis' inherent homophobia (and his denial of it)...

Yes. I feel that Ennis would have stayed *straight* most likely if he had not met Jack.
 I will tell you that a LOT of older people think that GAY people are made not born that way<sigh>

Poor Ennis. : (

J

Yes, I agreed with the point above that Ennis would most likely have not had a gay relationship had he not met Jack BUT that was probably due to his fear of the repercussions rather than him not being gay.  He met Jack who knocked him for six -I think Jack being a man was rather less important in the equation - the mutual attraction was so great that even tho Jack was male, it did not matter to Ennis.  I'm sure Ennis would've always had attraction to men had he not met Jack, but he would've been able to withstand it and not act on it (due to fears instilled into him by his father about homosexuality). 

As for being 'made' gay - no, i don't think so at all.  People are gay or they aren't.   

[Cowboy Cody]

Yesterday, When I wrote " Can't you see that I love you too, you son of bitch." I was so repressed because just thinking about Ennis personalty, he is so so...I wanna scream out for he. Actually what I thought were much more than that. The biggest part is fear. What Ennis wanna say is" don't push me, I've tried everything I can. You have on idea how painful I feel.  Do not go to Mexico, please do not give up on me. I cannot quit you too, I am so scared. You are my only love, donot let me suffer more pain." Too bad, he cannot let Jack know that...

...and, ...yeah!  He means all those things.

They are so in love with each other!

"E+J"

Jim

Y'all nailed this down, along with Jenny D.    This thread is gonna make me cry again.

[Miss Nice]

Great thread. Thanks. I don't have anything to add but a Thankyou all!

//Jak-ish girl