Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers

[vedrana]

IMO , I feel that in FC Jack did see the intensity of Ennis's hurts and suffering and he came and hugged him because he saw that Ennis was fighting it so much and could not take it..Ennis breaking up with Cassie showed us hope of him being more with Jack..I am not talking about living together as I feel that it would be too much for Ennis to deal with..But in November if they would have met I feel that things would have been better..I don't know why but I feel that Ennis realized that he was not there for Jack so many times and Jack realized that Ennis was broken...When they would have met next time, perhaps in November and if Jack would have known that Ennis broke up with Cassie that would have given him a positive signal that there is hope...On the other hand, Ennis would have never ever bared sharing Jack with another man and would have not let him be with another man and thats why he wanted to meet up with Jack to make things better...I really see hope there and I really feel that it would have worked out..I mean at least they would have met and had a virtual relation if not living together...It would have been at least better than what happened as they dint meet and Jack passed away...

Alas,neither they nor we knew that Jack would pass away and so much would be left unsaid and unspoken :\'( :\'(

Dear Cleo, 

today I watched BBM again, and this time I was crying from the very beginning of the movie. What to say? 

FC was definitely a scene with a lots of hidden meanings and feelings, suppressed emotions, secrets, but most of all the scene where both of them express their devotion to each other, each in his own way - Ennis saying that he suffers all his life because of this secret love and Jack saying that he had sex with others feeding his unquenchable hunger for Ennis. Almost 20 years had passed, and as LJN said, everything was at the beginning as Ennis accept no changes, not even minor.

Breaking up with Cassie for me was only a sign that Ennis admits that nothing in his life is worthy of pursuing, except of his love for Jack. IMO he just did not want to waist so much energy about Cassie as she was definitely not the one who could give him a complete comfort. On the other side, she sure had her expectations from their relationship which he was not willing to fulfill.

The only thing that is little intriguing is the fact that you pointed out well: Ennis would never agree to share Jack with other man! That little fact make me believe that maybe, just MAYBE, Ennis would have give more from himself in November.  On the other hand, why not meet earlier? If he was so jealous of Jack, he would've find a way to meet Jack way before November. Even loose his job if necessary.

Anyway, I will repeat that I firmly believe that this complicated relations are left to each of us to comprehend ourselves! No one can tell us what we see and how we feel about FC, or any other scene in the movie!

 

[tpe]

Tpe  ,
I'm new here in the forum, and I'm sure that many Brokies have already discussed this issues before, in some other threads, maybe even years ago... I saw that many Brokies think that FC was a turning point where Ennis maybe changed, or Jack decided to move on (with Randall), or...

Also, some see that after losing Jack forever, Ennis's has changed and become more loving or something...

I see nothing of these. Of course, I believe that BBM is so emotionally complicated story that each of us has his own explanation and feeling about it. Well, mine is that there's no hope for Ennis. Just a deep sorrow, just some long and lonely years of regretting for let Jack go. Years of keeping shirts in his poor closet, years of sweet and sad dreams about Jack, endurance he had shown through all his young years which will last until he die, and the motto of this story: If you can not fix it, you have to stand it. Surely, Ennis can't fix it any more.  :\'(

As for FC, I also see no obvious change. Only that confession from Jack and stunning reaction from Ennis, as you beautifully explained yesterday. Had dear Jack be alive, they'll meet in November and things would be pretty much the same, IMO.

Maybe A. Proloux could tell us more about it...

 :\'( :\'( :\'(

But how will you explain Ennis's decision to attend his daughter's wedding?   And why did he use the word "love" -- for the first and only time in the movie -- in this very scene?   Does it not show a transformed Ennis?

[vedrana]

But how will you explain Ennis's decision to attend his daughter's wedding?   And why did he use the word "love" -- for the first and only time in the movie -- in this very scene?   Does it not show a transformed Ennis?

Tpe

Yes, there was a slight change! But he wasn't so willingly agreed, he needed a time to decide about the wedding! Once you (I think) said that Junior's eyes reminded him of Jack's - I truly believe so!

I had hoped that he'd find some comfort with Jack's Ma... later I was thinking - you said that 2 years had passed, no sign of their companionship. Not very promising indeed!

Also, I found very important words in SS - Ennis saw no similarity between Jack and his Mother or father. I think that shows how distant in mind he was from them, how they couldn't replace even a little bit of Jack... I don't know, I'm just being pessimistic...  :\'(  :\'(

Sure that Jack's death has changed him (eg. he spoke with Lureen for the first time about Brokeback!), but IMO he was far away form any significant catharsis! And this minor changes mixed with his enormous pain doesn't seem so hopefull for me. 

Tpe, can you help me- when did he say "love"? By the end of the movie i am not rational any more  :\'( and have a hard time to grasp each word! 


 

[tpe]

Tpe

Yes, there was a slight change! But he wasn't so willingly agreed, he needed a time to decide about the wedding! Once you (I think) said that Junior's eyes reminded him of Jack's - I truly believe so!

I had hoped that he'd find some comfort with Jack's Ma... later I was thinking - you said that 2 years had passed, no sign of their companionship. Not very promising indeed!

Also, I found very important words in SS - Ennis saw no similarity between Jack and his Mother or father. I think that shows how distant in mind he was from them, how they couldn't replace even a little bit of Jack... I don't know, I'm just being pessimistic...  :\'(  :\'(

Sure that Jack's death has changed him (eg. he spoke with Lureen for the first time about Brokeback!), but IMO he was far away form any significant catharsis! And this minor changes mixed with his enormous pain doesn't seem so hopefull for me. 

Tpe, can you help me- when did he say "love"? By the end of the movie i am not rational any more  :\'( and have a hard time to grasp each word! 


 

Well, this is certainly understandable.  Yes, I think most of us here would agree that the ending didn't exactly resolve things -- and the fact that this disturbs us makes it all the more powerful.  In fact, all the scenes starting from the LC down leads us into an emotional secent where the bottom is not reached even at the end.

I think Ennis mentioning the word "love" signified that he was no longer afraid to love.  He never mentioned the word to Jack because he was afraid.  By saying it, he was no longer afraid to love his daughter -- and he was no longer afraid of his love for Jack.

[vedrana]

Well, this is certainly understandable.  Yes, I think most of us here would agree that the ending didn't exactly resolve things -- and the fact that this disturbs us makes it all the more powerful.  In fact, all the scenes starting from the LC down leads us into an emotional secent where the bottom is not reached even at the end.

I think Ennis mentioning the word "love" signified that he was no longer afraid to love.  He never mentioned the word to Jack because he was afraid.  By saying it, he was no longer afraid to love his daughter -- and he was no longer afraid of his love for Jack.

Don't you think that A.P. made a perfect job playing with our emotions?

Ennis was so much afraid for himself all his life because of "that thing", but finally his fear came true in its worse shape -loosing Jack! jack has lived full life under the circumstances, but got killed (probably) in a way he never think of.

Ennis tried so hard to hold on to "normal" life but completely failed in every relationship (except maybe with daughters). Jack was willing to leaves anyone for Ennis, but maintain his relationships just fine.

Ennis tried so hard to control his life, but ultimately hadn't a slightest control over his own life, and most of anything - feeling for Jack!

[tpe]

Don't you think that A.P. made a perfect job playing with our emotions?

Ennis was so much afraid for himself all his life because of "that thing", but finally his fear came true in its worse shape -loosing Jack! jack has lived full life under the circumstances, but got killed (probably) in a way he never think of.

Ennis tried so hard to hold on to "normal" life but completely failed in every relationship (except maybe with daughters). Jack was willing to leaves anyone for Ennis, but maintain his relationships just fine.

Ennis tried so hard to control his life, but ultimately hadn't a slightest control over his own life, and most of anything - feeling for Jack!

OT: Yes, perhaps too good a job -- as is attensted by the longevity of this forum! 

I think the important thing that is highlighted especially in the scene before (and after) the LC is this: that they were never in control. 

[vedrana]

OT: Yes, perhaps too good a job -- as is attensted by the longevity of this forum! 

I think the important thing that is highlighted especially in the scene before (and after) the LC is this: that they were never in control. 

Yes, tpe! 

Each of them expressing the lack of control according to his own personality.

Do you think that they understood the depth of each other feelings before LC? Or after it, during time to prepare for November?

Or Ennis realized all after finding the shirts?

Maybe there's another thread about this, I don't know, but just wonder what were they thinking about other side's emotions, and when was the turning point, if any?
 

[smartestsonia]

Dear Cleo, 

today I watched BBM again, and this time I was crying from the very beginning of the movie. What to say? 

FC was definitely a scene with a lots of hidden meanings and feelings, suppressed emotions, secrets, but most of all the scene where both of them express their devotion to each other, each in his own way - Ennis saying that he suffers all his life because of this secret love and Jack saying that he had sex with others feeding his unquenchable hunger for Ennis. Almost 20 years had passed, and as LJN said, everything was at the beginning as Ennis accept no changes, not even minor.

Breaking up with Cassie for me was only a sign that Ennis admits that nothing in his life is worthy of pursuing, except of his love for Jack. IMO he just did not want to waist so much energy about Cassie as she was definitely not the one who could give him a complete comfort. On the other side, she sure had her expectations from their relationship which he was not willing to fulfill.

The only thing that is little intriguing is the fact that you pointed out well: Ennis would never agree to share Jack with other man! That little fact make me believe that maybe, just MAYBE, Ennis would have give more from himself in November.  On the other hand, why not meet earlier? If he was so jealous of Jack, he would've find a way to meet Jack way before November. Even loose his job if necessary.

Anyway, I will repeat that I firmly believe that this complicated relations are left to each of us to comprehend ourselves! No one can tell us what we see and how we feel about FC, or any other scene in the movie!

 

Dear Loreen,
To cry watching BBM is something painful for me. I can understand what u go through and u r not alone in this.. we r there with u
I think it wa right for Ennis to break up with Cassie and Ennis wanted that as he realized that it will take him no where and he is just not doing things right...Cassie did love him or atleast did feel for him and she realized that he was not considering a future so she felt it was appropritae to part ways...

As u pointed out that why dint he want to meet him earlier than Novemebr?
Hmm..when I think about it there can be many reasons. Firstly, Ennis wanted to be by himself for some time. I know this may not make sense to many as when there is a problem one likes to address it soon..I am like this but when I think of Ennis IMO he felt that in FC he showed Jack how vulnerable he was by breaking down and so he felt that he wanted to be by himself and keep himself busy with his work and meet Jack later and make things right...

Another thing that comes to my mind is sometimes one unintentionally takes things for granted..I mean Ennis knew that Jack could not quit him and loved him too much...He must have felt that considering the first reason I gave above he would meet Jack after some timegap and he took that fact for granted...He never must have thought in his dreams that it would be too late,..When I think of all this it gives me chills and one must always tell what he feels in his heart to another person before it is too late as u never know about life...These r all my opinions and as u said there can be many interpretaions to this...

[vedrana]

Dear Loreen,
To cry watching BBM is something painful for me. I can understand what u go through and u r not alone in this.. we r there with u
I think it wa right for Ennis to break up with Cassie and Ennis wanted that as he realized that it will take him no where and he is just not doing things right...Cassie did love him or atleast did feel for him and she realized that he was not considering a future so she felt it was appropritae to part ways...

As u pointed out that why dint he want to meet him earlier than Novemebr?
Hmm..when I think about it there can be many reasons. Firstly, Ennis wanted to be by himself for some time. I know this may not make sense to many as when there is a problem one likes to address it soon..I am like this but when I think of Ennis IMO he felt that in FC he showed Jack how vulnerable he was by breaking down and so he felt that he wanted to be by himself and keep himself busy with his work and meet Jack later and make things right...

Another thing that comes to my mind is sometimes one unintentionally takes things for granted..I mean Ennis knew that Jack could not quit him and loved him too much...He must have felt that considering the first reason I gave above he would meet Jack after some timegap and he took that fact for granted...He never must have thought in his dreams that it would be too late,..When I think of all this it gives me chills and one must always tell what he feels in his heart to another person before it is too late as u never know about life...These r all my opinions and as u said there can be many interpretaions to this...

 
Dear Cleo ,
I can understand  your point of view about Ennis's wish to be alone for a while. That's possible.  Furthermore, he was not man of hurry or rushing into things. The other reason is also logical. He knew that jack's gonna be there no matter what. Only this time, Jack was gone :\'(

It's just that - I'm interested how he coped with his jealousy. He knew that Jack is having sex with other men, and according to his reaction it hit him real hard. Even so, he stood not to see Jack until November... strange man! I believe that he was an extremely firm character. Not that he could control everything, but he was stubborn in his ideas, even when loosing it all.

I am sure that he showed the same amount of stubbornness after Jack died, only in different way. And with much more effort to cope with every day of emptiness. Poor Ennis! :\'( :\'(

[smartestsonia]

Dear Cleo ,
I can understand  your point of view about Ennis's wish to be alone for a while. That's possible.  Furthermore, he was not man of hurry or rushing into things. The other reason is also logical. He knew that jack's gonna be there no matter what. Only this time, Jack was gone :\'(

It's just that - I'm interested how he coped with his jealousy. He knew that Jack is having sex with other men, and according to his reaction it hit him real hard. Even so, he stood not to see Jack until November... strange man! I believe that he was an extremely firm character. Not that he could control everything, but he was stubborn in his ideas, even when loosing it all.

I am sure that he showed the same amount of stubbornness after Jack died, only in different way. And with much more effort to cope with every day of emptiness. Poor Ennis! :\'( :\'(

Ennis did know that Jack is with other men and the fact that he was buring inside in the FC, it was obvious that he meant that Jack was only his....But I think at that time his hurt was so deep that he wanted to be by himself for sometime..Ennis lost all in his life..His wife, he does not live with his kids and the fact that Jack is sleeping with other men was too much for him to deal so he wanted to just be by himself for sometime and cope it that.
I agree with ya about Ennis stubborness..Ya,it felt so too..But he dint realize that time what it would cost him...He was stubborn with the faith that Jack was his and it will work out ..I mean he was like in Novemebr things will get better so he preferred waiting..He felt that Jack would never love another man or never be in a real relation with another man at all..Its hard for to digest too that Ennis dint take drastic steps to stop jack from having a physical relationship with other men..But one reason for this apart from his stubborness could be that he felt that he was at fault for not being there for Jack and that he was ashamed too...So he wanted to be by himself to see things more clearly...Well this reason can just be the fact looking at Ennis as person....Personally its hard for me as I am a very straight forward and I speak my heart out but when I put myself in Ennis shoes and see things through his eyes he preferred to give things time and he dint realize what it would cost him and inspite of the situations mentioned by u...

[aintfoolin]

Beautiful exchange from both  of you, loreen and smartsonia!
 I love the wonderful insight into Ennis.. He can be stubborn, ( excruciatingly rational.) at times lol. Your right, Ennis must leave the situation to think, rationalize and comparmentalizes every aspect of the event or situaion for a while. The "what if's and why nots. ( FNIT?) In short , he needs alot of space to breathe. It is almost an attempt  to re- estalish a "comfort zone" in his life. Some place away from everything and everyone. At almost forty he looks back at 19  and  into most of his adult life and sees whatever he's accomplished, or has'nt  and  why that road , though winding,always leads back to Jack.  Jack was always there. in the mix somehow.
Ennis  loved him, he also knows that Jack was at the heart of the matter when they parted ways in "63". It was because of Jack that he felt he had to prove  he was different and marry Alma,. It was because of Jack that he could'nt find  real satisfaction in it . It's because of Jack, he could'nt hold down a job for too long as it maybe become an interference in seeing him.  He just quit them, It was because of Jack that he fell in love and needed Jack. I think he found  being Jack worth it all but if only he could've gotten to a place sooner where he could embrace Jack's love to the fullest and set them both free.  A love existed, some bond that could never be broken.

It's sad, this scene is, but I love the passion it it. With the jealosy, anger, frustration and  stinging words, it was fight to the finish for love....of course they could've made it simple if one em just said it. " I love ya dumbass!! :\'(

[smartestsonia]

Beautiful exchange from both  of you, loreen and smartsonia!
 I love the wonderful insight into Ennis.. He can be stubborn, ( excruciatingly rational.) at times lol. Your right, Ennis must leave the situation to think, rationalize and comparmentalizes every aspect of the event or situaion for a while. The "what if's and why nots. ( FNIT?) In short , he needs alot of space to breathe. It is almost an attempt  to re- estalish a "comfort zone" in his life. Some place away from everything and everyone. At almost forty he looks back at 19  and  into most of his adult life and sees whatever he's accomplished, or has'nt  and  why that road , though winding,always leads back to Jack.  Jack was always there. in the mix somehow.
Ennis  loved him, he also knows that Jack was at the heart of the matter when they parted ways in "63". It was because of Jack that he felt he had to prove  he was different and marry Alma,. It was because of Jack that he could'nt find  real satisfaction in it . It's because of Jack, he could'nt hold down a job for too long as it maybe become an interference in seeing him.  He just quit them, It was because of Jack that he fell in love and needed Jack. I think he found  being Jack worth it all but if only he could've gotten to a place sooner where he could embrace Jack's love to the fullest and set them both free.  A love existed, some bond that could never be broken.

It's sad, this scene is, but I love the passion it it. With the jealosy, anger, frustration and  stinging words, it was fight to the finish for love....of course they could've made it simple if one em just said it. " I love ya dumbass!! :\'(

I loved your post..Ennis knew that Jack's love was a strong force that ruled his thoughts, feelings and the way he could divert that was to get married and he changed jobs as he feared of being found out...Jack's love made him what he is...When he told jack that because of him he is like this, it showed that love which is a force of nature is something which Ennis had no control over and he tried his best to fight that..he could not so he chose to stand it..His fears were too much and it took over his love for Jack which we wished dint happen...

[vedrana]

Do you think that they understood the depth of each other feelings before FC? Or after it, during time to prepare for November?

Or Ennis realized all after finding the shirts?

Maybe there's another thread about this, I don't know, but just wonder what were they thinking about other side's emotions, and when was the turning point, if any?
 

These were my words in one of the previous posts ( I asked tpe about his opinion), and what's your opinion Cleo about it?

It's sad, this scene is, but I love the passion it it. With the jealosy, anger, frustration and  stinging words, it was fight to the finish for love....of course they could've made it simple if one em just said it. " I love ya dumbass!! :\'(

Hm... this is interesting. And it goes back to my previous question - did they know that they love each other so very much? Or they should've said so!

Would one simple :  between two of them be so powerful to disperse all difficulties between them and just let them fall into each other arms and stay there forever? Anyone?

 

[tpe]

Yes, tpe! 

Each of them expressing the lack of control according to his own personality.

Do you think that they understood the depth of each other feelings before LC? Or after it, during time to prepare for November?

Or Ennis realized all after finding the shirts?

Maybe there's another thread about this, I don't know, but just wonder what were they thinking about other side's emotions, and when was the turning point, if any?
 

I think not fully -- particularly on Ennis's part.  What is painful is perhaps Jack never got to see Ennis's change of heart.  Ennis certainly loved Jack, but I think even Ennis didn't realize how deeply until it was too late.  This is all to familiar in life, especially when there is a tendency to take people for granted.  I think Ennis had come to that point during the LC scene.  Even his statement "It's because of you..." is more about him than about both of them -- not intentional, but it shows us that he was still dominated by his own fears and concerns...

[vedrana]

I think not fully -- particularly on Ennis's part.  What is painful is perhaps Jack never got to see Ennis's change of heart.  Ennis certainly loved Jack, but I think even Ennis didn't realize how deeply until it was too late.  This is all to familiar in life, especially when there is a tendency to take people for granted.  I think Ennis had come to that point during the LC scene.  Even his statement "It's because of you..." is more about him than about both of them -- not intentional, but it shows us that he was still dominated by his own fears and concerns...

Tpe,

Well said! I have to agree completely on this one!

Maybe at those days man wasn't suppose to have feelings, so anything that was related with feelings even from distant places was tabu. That could be one possible explanation. Otherwise it's difficult to comprehend the way they explained to themselves so much passion and magnetic attraction they had for each other.

 

[tpe]

Tpe,

Well said! I have to agree completely on this one!

Maybe at those days man wasn't suppose to have feelings, so anything that was related with feelings even from distant places was tabu. That could be one possible explanation. Otherwise it's difficult to comprehend the way they explained to themselves so much passion and magnetic attraction they had for each other.

 

Yes, I felt that Ennis didn't think it was right to be too emotive, even with Jack.  I can't help interpreting "It's because of you..." as partly Ennis's admission that because of Jack, he had lost control over his own emotions...

[vedrana]

Yes, I felt that Ennis didn't think it was right to be too emotive, even with Jack.  I can't help interpreting "It's because of you..." as partly Ennis's admission that because of Jack, he had lost control over his own emotions...

... and loosing control was something he was always afraid of.

Sad and deep scene indeed!  :\'( Our cognition of forthcoming tragedy makes it even more sad and hard to watch.

The only positive thing in that scene is loudly unsaid but very clear evidence that they're still so much in love!  :\'(

E J

[tpe]

... and loosing control was something he was always afraid of.

Exactly: Jack made him more vulnerable.

Sad and deep scene indeed!  :\'( Our cognition of forthcoming tragedy makes it even more sad and hard to watch.

The only positive thing in that scene is loudly unsaid but very clear evidence that they're still so much in love!  :\'(

E J

I think Jack realized that it was more than just a blame game in this scene.  It was a sort of calling to account -- but it was also a moment of self-realization on their parts.  Both learned something deeper about themselves at this moment of conflict.

[smartestsonia]

Do you think that they understood the depth of each other feelings before FC? Or after it, during time to prepare for November?

Or Ennis realized all after finding the shirts?

Maybe there's another thread about this, I don't know, but just wonder what were they thinking about other side's emotions, and when was the turning point, if any?
 

These were my words in one of the previous posts ( I asked tpe about his opinion), and what's your opinion Cleo about it?

Hm... this is interesting. And it goes back to my previous question - did they know that they love each other so very much? Or they should've said so!

Would one simple :  between two of them be so powerful to disperse all difficulties between them and just let them fall into each other arms and stay there forever? Anyone?

 

I think that Ennis always knew Jack’s love for him..He knew that because jack always wanted to live with him and made attempts of staying in touch...But he felt the depths of Jack’s love when he saw the shirts and the fact that Jack is not physically around…Keeping a shirt stained with blood from a moment which was a fight between the two and keeping that as a symbol of undying and longing love actually showed us the shape of Jack’s heart…I think on that moment even Ennis realized the extent to which he loved Jack and he was so overwhelemed with that and all he wanted was to hug Jack and be with Jack but Jack went away and he could literally choke but he expressed it in 3 words .”Jack, I swear”...It showed what all he wanted to say but Jack definitely got the mesaage as to what Ennis felt by saying those 3 words…

[vedrana]

I think Jack realized that it was more than just a blame game in this scene.  It was a sort of calling to account -- but it was also a moment of self-realization on their parts.  Both learned something deeper about themselves at this moment of conflict.

Yes, but also about each other. It's just that they needed more time to put things where they are. We all sometimes need more time to understand the real meaning of other people's messages.

For them unfortunately there was no further chances to exchange their opinions and more important - express feelings for each other.

 

[tpe]

I think that Ennis always knew Jack’s love for him..He knew that because jack always wanted to live with him and made attempts of staying in touch...But he felt the depths of Jack’s love when he saw the shirts and the fact that Jack is not physically around…Keeping a shirt stained with blood from a moment which was a fight between the two and keeping that as a symbol of undying and longing love actually showed us the shape of Jack’s heart…I think on that moment even Ennis realized the extent to which he loved Jack and he was so overwhelemed with that and all he wanted was to hug Jack and be with Jack but Jack went away and he could literally choke but he expressed it in 3 words .”Jack, I swear”...It showed what all he wanted to say but Jack definitely got the mesaage as to what Ennis felt by saying those 3 words…

Yes, I think so too -- although Ennis might have taken it against Jack that he had been having trysts with other men.  Still, I think Ennis was aware of Jack's strong desire to live together, and frankly, I felt that later, he became too complacent and took it for granted.  This was part of the tragic flaw in his character -- to seem indiferent to love when that was what all he himself wanted.

[tpe]

Yes, but also about each other. It's just that they needed more time to put things where they are. We all sometimes need more time to understand the real meaning of other people's messages.

For them unfortunately there was no further chances to exchange their opinions and more important - express feelings for each other.

 

This is true.  Specifically, I think that both of them were surprised at each other's fury.  I think Ennis's final collapse and Jack's resignation showed their extreme vulnerability in the face of the other.

[smartestsonia]

Yes, I think so too -- although Ennis might have taken it against Jack that he had been having trysts with other men.  Still, I think Ennis was aware of Jack's strong desire to live together, and frankly, I felt that later, he became too complacent and took it for granted.  This was part of the tragic flaw in his character -- to seem indiferent to love when that was what all he himself wanted.

I think Ennis had an unconscious faith that Jack would just be his..He knew that Jack felt strongly about him and what they had was special...Just like ya I also feel that he took that for granted...Ennis also wanted Jack but his fears dint let him stay with him and he himself drew the line...In the FC when he gets mad at Jack for sleeping with other men it was his jelousy as well as love for him that got him so dam angry....Jack only belonged to him and Ennis hated the thought of Jack with someone else..However in the final scene Ennis IMO forgives Jack for that as he himeslf was not there with him  so many times and he forgived himself for that...The most difficult thing for anyone to ever do...

[vedrana]

I think Ennis had an unconscious faith that Jack would just be his..He knew that Jack felt strongly about him and what they had was special...Just like ya I also feel that he took that for granted...Ennis also wanted Jack but his fears dint let him stay with him and he himself drew the line...In the FC when he gets mad at Jack for sleeping with other men it was his jelousy as well as love for him that got him so dam angry....Jack only belonged to him and Ennis hated the thought of Jack with someone else..However in the final scene Ennis IMO forgives Jack for that as he himeslf was not there with him  so many times and he forgived himself for that...The most difficult thing for anyone to ever do...

I never felt that after Jack died, Ennis even gave a thought to his infidelity. IMO that part of their relationship was absolutely not important under the circumstances. To forgive himself is a hardest part for Ennis. Jack's death and the living piece of their love embodied in two shirts have changed his life forever. In a way nothing and no one mattered any more.  :\'(

[atalley]

Well, this is certainly understandable.  Yes, I think most of us here would agree that the ending didn't exactly resolve things -- and the fact that this disturbs us makes it all the more powerful.  In fact, all the scenes starting from the LC down leads us into an emotional secent where the bottom is not reached even at the end.

I think Ennis mentioning the word "love" signified that he was no longer afraid to love.  He never mentioned the word to Jack because he was afraid.  By saying it, he was no longer afraid to love his daughter -- and he was no longer afraid of his love for Jack.

I agree Thomas...great post!

[gothica_vanessa]

At almost forty he looks back at 19  and  into most of his adult life and sees whatever he's accomplished, or has'nt  and  why that road , though winding,always leads back to Jack.  Jack was always there. in the mix somehow.
Ennis  loved him, he also knows that Jack was at the heart of the matter when they parted ways in "63". It was because of Jack that he felt he had to prove  he was different and marry Alma,. It was because of Jack that he could'nt find  real satisfaction in it . It's because of Jack, he could'nt hold down a job for too long as it maybe become an interference in seeing him.  He just quit them, It was because of Jack that he fell in love and needed Jack. I think he found  being Jack worth it all but if only he could've gotten to a place sooner where he could embrace Jack's love to the fullest and set them both free.  A love existed, some bond that could never be broken.

It's sad, this scene is, but I love the passion it it. With the jealosy, anger, frustration and  stinging words, it was fight to the finish for love....of course they could've made it simple if one em just said it. " I love ya dumbass!! :\'(

you got me good here, huh
vanessa

I never felt that after Jack died, Ennis even gave a thought to his infidelity. IMO that part of their relationship was absolutely not important under the circumstances. To forgive himself is a hardest part for Ennis. Jack's death and the living piece of their love embodied in two shirts have changed his life forever. In a way nothing and no one mattered any more.  :\'(

yep.
vanessa

[atalley]

 I love the wonderful insight into Ennis.. He can be stubborn, ( excruciatingly rational.) at times lol. Your right, Ennis must leave the situation to think, rationalize and comparmentalizes every aspect of the event or situaion for a while. The "what if's and why nots. ( FNIT?) In short , he needs alot of space to breathe. It is almost an attempt  to re- estalish a "comfort zone" in his life. Some place away from everything and everyone. At almost forty he looks back at 19  and  into most of his adult life and sees whatever he's accomplished, or has'nt  and  why that road , though winding,always leads back to Jack.  Jack was always there. in the mix somehow.
Ennis  loved him, he also knows that Jack was at the heart of the matter when they parted ways in "63". It was because of Jack that he felt he had to prove  he was different and marry Alma,. It was because of Jack that he could'nt find  real satisfaction in it . It's because of Jack, he could'nt hold down a job for too long as it maybe become an interference in seeing him.  He just quit them, It was because of Jack that he fell in love and needed Jack. I think he found  being Jack worth it all but if only he could've gotten to a place sooner where he could embrace Jack's love to the fullest and set them both free.  A love existed, some bond that could never be broken.

Beautiful way to sum up the enire movie.

[tpe]

I think Ennis had an unconscious faith that Jack would just be his..He knew that Jack felt strongly about him and what they had was special...Just like ya I also feel that he took that for granted...Ennis also wanted Jack but his fears dint let him stay with him and he himself drew the line...In the FC when he gets mad at Jack for sleeping with other men it was his jelousy as well as love for him that got him so dam angry....Jack only belonged to him and Ennis hated the thought of Jack with someone else..However in the final scene Ennis IMO forgives Jack for that as he himeslf was not there with him  so many times and he forgived himself for that...The most difficult thing for anyone to ever do...

It reminds me of the line from Shelter; to paraphrase: you don't have someone forever.  I think Ennis realized this too late. 

In this scene, where he seems to be blaming Jack for making him who he is, I wonder whether he instinctively blamed Jack for his complacency?  Not that he did it consciously, mind you.  Perhaps it was a subconscious plea?

Well, maybe this is far-fetched.  Still, I wanted to point out the possibility...

[tpe]

I never felt that after Jack died, Ennis even gave a thought to his infidelity. IMO that part of their relationship was absolutely not important under the circumstances. To forgive himself is a hardest part for Ennis. Jack's death and the living piece of their love embodied in two shirts have changed his life forever. In a way nothing and no one mattered any more.  :\'(

So, if I understand you correctly, you believe that infidelity ceased to become an issue with Ennis after Jack's death.  Am I correct?

To tie it in with the subject at hand, I would extend it by saying that Ennis blaming Jack for what became of him ALSO became immaterial. 

[tpe]

I agree Thomas...great post!

Thanks, atalley.