Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers

[tpe]

That is what attached us so much to this story: Ennis is Jack's love, hope, pain, longing, meaning of his life.... Jack is Ennis's love, hope, pain, reason to live... Each time we see Jack - we see what he means to Ennis and vice versa. 

And so this is why Ennis's accusation was very hurtful also -- not thast it qwasn't true; it was hurtful because it sort of didn't acknowledge that he was like that because he needed Jack.

[myprivatejack]

They say that the best defense is a good attack,and that's what Ennis tried to do in this scene,IMO; complaining himself while he put the blame on Jack for having made him "be like this".It's kind of telling him:-It's because of you that I'm nobody,I'm nowhere,waiting for you faithful while you're spending your time with some prostitutes without bearing in mind what I can feel or think".An hidden way of telling him,really:-It's because of you that I'm a gay; it's because of you I'm just like that".Everything and any thing before recognise to himself and before his lover that,as Thomas say,"he was like that because he needed Jack".And I'd add that still less before recognising that he was desperately in love with Jack,maybe even more than he could believe and admit,and much before their first night together...

[atalley]

I look at this scene a little differently; I think because Ennis follows this with "I can't stand this no more Jack."  I take this to mean that he agrees that they have too little time together; that this relationship is wearing him thin.  He wants to meet more often, but is still afraid of the C & C Operation and doesn't know how to resolve these conflicts.  Am I way off on this one?  

[vedrana]

I look at this scene a little differently; I think because Ennis follows this with "I can't stand this no more Jack."  I take this to mean that he agrees that they have too little time together; that this relationship is wearing him thin.  He wants to meet more often, but is still afraid of the C & C Operation and doesn't know how to resolve these conflicts.  Am I way off on this one?  

Atalley  ,

you are not way off IMO. There was a lots of things in Ennis's mind at that moment. One of them was indeed his wish to be with Jack as more as possible, and denying this wish to himself was devastating for his emotions. We shouldn't forget though that just seconds before he broke down, he had faced angry Jack for the first time in 20 years, he had faced Jack's infidelity in the worst possible way, Jack's wish to quit him... He loved Jack and those things were devastated for him, so they were also contained in his words: "I can't stand this any more!"

[tpe]

They say that the best defense is a good attack,and that's what Ennis tried to do in this scene,IMO; complaining himself while he put the blame on Jack for having made him "be like this".It's kind of telling him:-It's because of you that I'm nobody,I'm nowhere,waiting for you faithful while you're spending your time with some prostitutes without bearing in mind what I can feel or think".An hidden way of telling him,really:-It's because of you that I'm a gay; it's because of you I'm just like that".Everything and any thing before recognise to himself and before his lover that,as Thomas say,"he was like that because he needed Jack".And I'd add that still less before recognising that he was desperately in love with Jack,maybe even more than he could believe and admit,and much before their first night together...

Thanks MPJ.  You are right -- we all have this gut reaction to lash out when we are pushed into a corner.  Do you also notice a hint of self-pity in all this?  I think Ennis may have been saying this as an expression of how inadequate he felt, and perhaps not necessarily a pinpoint attack on Jack. 

Still, I do feel that it was an admission of love -- of powerlessness against the love he had for Jack.

[tpe]

I look at this scene a little differently; I think because Ennis follows this with "I can't stand this no more Jack."  I take this to mean that he agrees that they have too little time together; that this relationship is wearing him thin.  He wants to meet more often, but is still afraid of the C & C Operation and doesn't know how to resolve these conflicts.  Am I way off on this one?  

I don't think you are off.  I do agree that Ennis's outburst was very much an indication of how deep his frustration was.  We know that deep inside, he wanted to be with Jack, but he felt inadequate to cope with his own fears and insecuritites.  WE can also read this as a sign of Ennis's frustration with himself.  This doesn't necessarily contradict anything that has been discussed previously.

[myprivatejack]

I look at this scene a little differently; I think because Ennis follows this with "I can't stand this no more Jack."  I take this to mean that he agrees that they have too little time together; that this relationship is wearing him thin.  He wants to meet more often, but is still afraid of the C & C Operation and doesn't know how to resolve these conflicts.  Am I way off on this one?  

Thanks MPJ.  You are right -- we all have this gut reaction to lash out when we are pushed into a corner.  Do you also notice a hint of self-pity in all this?  I think Ennis may have been saying this as an expression of how inadequate he felt, and perhaps not necessarily a pinpoint attack on Jack. 

Still, I do feel that it was an admission of love -- of powerlessness against the love he had for Jack.

IMO,nobody has entered into any contradiction with their opinions here.   When I said that Ennis somehow was "attacking" Jack,isn't implicitly in this attack a way of admitting-in a very Ennis style-there was an huge mess between his feelings and his sensibleness?.Isn't it a way of admitting he was in this way for loving Jack,and complaining because this one was !@#$ other men when he felts so lonely?But also,complaining because,as he loved Jack so deeply,he admitted not being able to offer him anything else than a few days  of company each three or four months?.
Thomas,I have never said that,in spite of this attack as a self defense,for me the whole scene is not a powerful love's declaration; from his jealousy attack when knowing Jack was to Mexico, to his final break down,passing by this phrase we're discussing.As powerful as a love's declaration as,I repeat your words,powerless he felt before all this,that clearly surpassed him.In any case,if there's somebody with contradictions,this is Ennis.

[smartestsonia]

Yes, he put Ennis' pain above his and wanted to comfort him, he loved him so much even when he was so angry at him.

Exactly,that is what true love is all about and that is what we exactly saw...Even though Jack was himself so much hurting he saw Ennis hurting and that meant too much and that was something that melted his wounded heart in a second and he went to comfort him...

[vedrana]

Exactly,that is what true love is all about and that is what we exactly saw...Even though Jack was himself so much hurting he saw Ennis hurting and that meant too much and that was something that melted his wounded heart in a second and he went to comfort him...

The thing we feel so attractive about this movie among other are those little gestures. Nothing said, but everything done! In that way their love seemed even more beautiful!

[smartestsonia]

It was really huge for me to see how Jack reacted to Ennis's accusation: it was so full of compassion, and he didn't argue with Ennis about it.  The hug he gave in rssponse to this neither confirmed nor denied it.  I think, the point was that both of them had become so much a part of each other that to hurt one was to hurt the other.

It was like two bodies in one soul and Jack felt himself being chocked after seeing Ennis hurting so much..He could not take that...Even though he had his own hurts it was as if a part of him was bleeding seeing Ennis so miserable..

[smartestsonia]

The thing we feel so attractive about this movie among other are those little gestures. Nothing said, but everything done! In that way their love seemed even more beautiful!

Actions speak louder than words...From the start of the film in their little small ways they showed love..Let it be Ennis buying soup for Jack or Jack cleaning his wounds...What hurts is that when it needed to be spoken it dint happen..If that would have happened then things would have been different and the FC would not have been so painful and full of regrets..I think we learn alot from this to never take love for granted and to always acknowledge and speak things through when it needs to be done before it is too late...

[myprivatejack]

Actions speak louder than words...From the start of the film in their little small ways they showed love..Let it be Ennis buying soup for Jack or Jack cleaning his wounds...What hurts is that when it needed to be spoken it dint happen..If that would have happened then things would have been different and the FC would not have been so painful and full of regrets..I think we learn alot from this to never take love for granted and to always acknowledge and speak things through when it needs to be done before it is too late...

Exactly,Cleo ¡ Even if actions speak louder than words,there're some moments when we must put into words what we wish,fear or regret.Specially in this last case,it's not advisable to save something inside oneself,because it almost always finishes by bursting,as it happenned in the FC.And Jack and,specially,Ennis,saved too many things during too many years inside themselves... 

[smartestsonia]

Exactly,Cleo ¡ Even if actions speak louder than words,there're some moments when we must put into words what we wish,fear or regret.Specially in this last case,it's not advisable to save something inside oneself,because it almost always finishes by bursting,as it happenned in the FC.And Jack and,specially,Ennis,saved too many things during too many years inside themselves... 

I agree Alicia..
Ennis learned this the hard way though..He would have never imagined of losing Jack...I think that we learn that always say what needs to be said before it is too late...I think u never know where life can take u...It hurts to see something turning out to be like the way it did with Ennis and Jack as we all know that if something was told earlier then each would not go through the turmoil that they did...

[myprivatejack]

I agree Alicia..
Ennis learned this the hard way though..He would have never imagined of losing Jack...I think that we learn that always say what needs to be said before it is too late...I think u never know where life can take u...It hurts to see something turning out to be like the way it did with Ennis and Jack as we all know that if something was told earlier then each would not go through the turmoil that they did...

I quote this ¡. The most tragic of all this is that so many things were waiting to be told and never did,for fear of that could happen what happenned at the end...

[tpe]

IMO,nobody has entered into any contradiction with their opinions here.   When I said that Ennis somehow was "attacking" Jack,isn't implicitly in this attack a way of admitting-in a very Ennis style-there was an huge mess between his feelings and his sensibleness?.Isn't it a way of admitting he was in this way for loving Jack,and complaining because this one was !@#$ other men when he felts so lonely?But also,complaining because,as he loved Jack so deeply,he admitted not being able to offer him anything else than a few days  of company each three or four months?.
Thomas,I have never said that,in spite of this attack as a self defense,for me the whole scene is not a powerful love's declaration; from his jealousy attack when knowing Jack was to Mexico, to his final break down,passing by this phrase we're discussing.As powerful as a love's declaration as,I repeat your words,powerless he felt before all this,that clearly surpassed him.In any case,if there's somebody with contradictions,this is Ennis.

I know that MPJ.  It was implicit in what you had said previously.  Consider what I said as an amplification of your own feelings. 

[tpe]

It was like two bodies in one soul and Jack felt himself being chocked after seeing Ennis hurting so much..He could not take that...Even though he had his own hurts it was as if a part of him was bleeding seeing Ennis so miserable..

Both of them were hurting.  In love as well as in hurt, they are one.

[smartestsonia]

Both of them were hurting.  In love as well as in hurt, they are one.

i agree...in love they always felt the same and ya the hurt was such that each struggled their own way, fighting the odds their whole lives...In the FC they both opened up their hearts frustrations but the love was a constant factor and even in the hurt, love was the reason that it choked them so much....

[aintfoolin]

I feel sub-conciously Ennis hated the fears within himself the most. To say "it's because a Jack " is simply saying that he has sacrificed his whole life for the love he had for him, but it was in reality the fears he carried with him since 1963 that has stood in the way of a full, complete acceptance of his love for Jack and a sweet life with him. I feel he hated the control his fears had over him and how it spread to Jack, affecting him, hurting him as well.  All Jack did was present Ennis with the love of his life. The rest was up to Ennis to come to grips with this fear that seemed to overcome him.  " because a you Jack,  I'm nuthin, nowhere"  may very well have a ring of truth to it, but only in the context that Ennis's fears have kept him from having a full realization of what a sweet life with Jack could be like, if it could be at all. i think it's what he could not accept at that point. After all the years together, Ennis was making it personal.  perhaps Ennis was targeting the  real culprit, the fears here in himself  more than  blaming Jack just for loving him. How could he blame Jack for a love so dear and right?

[tpe]

i agree...in love they always felt the same and ya the hurt was such that each struggled their own way, fighting the odds their whole lives...In the FC they both opened up their hearts frustrations but the love was a constant factor and even in the hurt, love was the reason that it choked them so much....

I thionk so too.  Even in the most heated moments in the Last Confrontation, we see that it was their love for eaxch other that drove them -- jealousy is indeed a manifestation of love, as much as it is of hate.

I feel sub-conciously Ennis hated the fears within himself the most. To say "it's because a Jack " is simply saying that he has sacrificed his whole life for the love he had for him, but it was in reality the fears he carried with him since 1963 that has stood in the way of a full, complete acceptance of his love for Jack and a sweet life with him. I feel he hated the control his fears had over him and how it spread to Jack, affecting him, hurting him as well.  All Jack did was present Ennis with the love of his life. The rest was up to Ennis to come to grips with this fear that seemed to overcome him.  " because a you Jack,  I'm nuthin, nowhere"  may very well have a ring of truth to it, but only in the context that Ennis's fears have kept him from having a full realization of what a sweet life with Jack could be like, if it could be at all. i think it's what he could not accept at that point. After all the years together, Ennis was making it personal.  perhaps Ennis was targeting the  real culprit, the fears here in himself  more than  blaming Jack just for loving him. How could he blame Jack for a love so dear and right?

Exactly.  I think Ennis was trying to tell Jack that it wasn't easy for him either, and that he had sacrificed a great deal for his love.    Again, I really feel that deep-down, Ennis also wanted the Sweet Life, but thought that doing it in the open would only expose both of them to danger.  It is the element of sacrifice that he wanted Jack to see, but I am sure he was also aware that Jack rebuked him because the latter didn't care about the danger, and resented the fact that Ennis didn't look at things the same way.

[myprivatejack]

I can't but agree with all the reasons that have been exposed here up to now.Only adding that,for me,this "It's because of you,Jack..." is,above all,a complete love's declaration.Nothing else,even with jealousy or self-complaining "attacks",or with misunderstanding of Jack's reasons for going to Mexico or wherever...A complete,passionate and desperate love's declaration.

[vedrana]

I can't but agree with all the reasons that have been exposed here up to now.Only adding that,for me,this "It's because of you,Jack..." is,above all,a complete love's declaration.Nothing else,even with jealousy or self-complaining "attacks",or with misunderstanding of Jack's reasons for going to Mexico or wherever...A complete,passionate and desperate love's declaration.

Among the other things in complexity of FC, "It's because of you,Jack..."  is a love declaration expressed in a suppressed way that Ennis was only capable of. Nothing more he could say, but under the storm of Jack's words - nothing less! :\'(

[atalley]

MPJ...thank you for saying what I feel but didn't know how to put it in words.

[myprivatejack]

MPJ...thank you for saying what I feel but didn't know how to put it in words.

  to you,Anita ¡ But I have only said what can't be expressed with words precisely; only feel and shared...

[tpe]

We should also note that the juxtaposition of the Dozy Embrace in the middle of all this serves as a subtle commentary in response to Ennis's accusation.  In the DE, we pretty much see the other side of Jack's effect on Ennis -- and that side shows the deeply loving and caring Ennis.

[vedrana]

We should also note that the juxtaposition of the Dozy Embrace in the middle of all this serves as a subtle commentary in response to Ennis's accusation.  In the DE, we pretty much see the other side of Jack's effect on Ennis -- and that side shows the deeply loving and caring Ennis.

I always believed that Ennis was a loving and caring person all the time, but instead of sharing and freely giving his feelings to others (particularly Jack), he always tend to bury them inside of himself. And that's a killer for anyone's soul - never have a freedom to love and to show that love!

I think that it's similar with anger or sadness. If one is not able to take that out, eventually it will kill him emotionally.

Unfortunately, Ennis had to pay the highest possible price to learn how to give love! After paying the price, he couldn't give the most beautiful love inside of him to his only lover, cos Jack WAS that price! :\'(
Poor Ennis!  :\'(

[tpe]

I always believed that Ennis was a loving and caring person all the time, but instead of sharing and freely giving his feelings to others (particularly Jack), he always tend to bury them inside of himself. And that's a killer for anyone's soul - never have a freedom to love and to show that love!

I think that it's similar with anger or sadness. If one is not able to take that out, eventually it will kill him emotionally.

Unfortunately, Ennis had to pay the highest possible price to learn how to give love! After paying the price, he couldn't give the most beautiful love inside of him to his only lover, cos Jack WAS that price! :\'(
Poor Ennis!  :\'(

I would like to think that Jack understood that Ennis always loved him.  True, the love wasn't perfect, but it was enough to make the difference.  On Ennis's side, I would like to think that Jack's love also made a difference.  "It's because of you that I'm like this" gains added depth when we think in these terms...

[atalley]

You are so right Thomas.  They knew in their hearts what the truth was.  There would be no one else that could fill their need for each other.

[tpe]

You are so right Thomas.  They knew in their hearts what the truth was.  There would be no one else that could fill their need for each other.

What Ennis said about he was "nothing" and "nowhere" must have also hurt Jack deeply.  After all, I would have thought that to Jack, Ennis -- the person he loved the most -- wasn't "nothing"; wherever Ennis was certainly wasn't "nowhere".  Would he have been willing to do the brutal drive from Texas to Wyoming and back for "nothing"?  Would it be worth to do such a drive to go "nowhere"?

[vedrana]

What Ennis said about he was "nothing" and "nowhere" must have also hurt Jack deeply.  After all, I would have thought that to Jack, Ennis -- the person he loved the most -- wasn't "nothing"; wherever Ennis was certainly wasn't "nowhere".  Would he have been willing to do the brutal drive from Texas to Wyoming and back for "nothing"?  Would it be worth to do such a drive to go "nowhere"?

Beautiful and moving post tpe!  :\'(

[atalley]

Wow Thomas...I never looked at it that way.  I thought that he was saying that he changed jobs a lot & didn't really have a place to call home so he could meet Jack on the Mt. whenever he got a postcard.  When I think about it, though, he knew that they would get together at the same times every yr., so he should've been able to schedule ahead.  No matter how hurtful Ennis was to Jack, Jack was always the comforter.  This is one reason I love Jack so much.  No matter how much pain he was in himself, he was there being strong for Ennis.