Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers

[vedrana]

Wow Thomas...I never looked at it that way.  I thought that he was saying that he changed jobs a lot & didn't really have a place to call home so he could meet Jack on the Mt. whenever he got a postcard.  When I think about it, though, he knew that they would get together at the same times every yr., so he should've been able to schedule ahead.  No matter how hurtful Ennis was to Jack, Jack was always the comforter.  This is one reason I love Jack so much.  No matter how much pain he was in himself, he was there being strong for Ennis.

Yes Attaley, that is the main reason for Jack's character to be so attractive - he persisted in pursuing love no matter what. And, as my answer to tpe's previous post -obviously he knew that Ennis loved him! Otherwise he would've never persisted so stubbornly about their meetings. Changes in Ennis? Well possibly after FC or after dear Jack died, but in both cases -too late!  :\'(

[tpe]

Thanks loreen and atalley.

atalley, I have never considered that -- that the meetings could have scheduled things ahead.  In any case, I thought it was consistent that Jack chose to comfort Ennis in response to Ennis's accusation of Jack making him into the person he was.

I echo what loreen has said above.  I think this is also the main reason why Ennis loved Jack.

 

[smartestsonia]

Yes Attaley, that is the main reason for Jack's character to be so attractive - he persisted in pursuing love no matter what. And, as my answer to tpe's previous post -obviously he knew that Ennis loved him! Otherwise he would've never persisted so stubbornly about their meetings. Changes in Ennis? Well possibly after FC or after dear Jack died, but in both cases -too late!  :\'(

I completely agree Loreen, Jack knew Ennis loved him..The 3 words "I love you" were never said...Jack held onto it..He kept fighting for them and Ennis knew that but dint reciprocate to it too much and then he did realize that but it was too late,.Jack was gone  :\'( 

[vedrana]

I completely agree Loreen, Jack knew Ennis loved him..The 3 words "I love you" were never said...Jack held onto it..He kept fighting for them and Ennis knew that but dint reciprocate to it too much and then he did realize that but it was too late,.Jack was gone  :\'( 

Can we say that Jack knew more about Ennis who never open himself than Ennis ever knew about Jack, who was an open book and always showed everything out? 

[tpe]

I don't know.  My hunch is that Jack understood where Ennis was coming from and the limitations set by his own fears -- at least as far as the words of the ss go when it describes the dozy embrace.  Ennis, in contrast, perhaps understood the necessity of keeping their love "safe", but didn't understand why Jack had to put the "sweet life" above everything else -- until the end.

[vedrana]

I don't know.  My hunch is that Jack understood where Ennis was coming from and the limitations set by his own fears -- at least as far as the words of the ss go when it describes the dozy embrace.  Ennis, in contrast, perhaps understood the necessity of keeping their love "safe", but didn't understand why Jack had to put the "sweet life" above everything else -- until the end.

In a way, that is similar to my opinion.

Maybe he understood what "sweet life" means adn why Jack wanted it. I think that he wanted it himself, but he shut the door of acceptance -- until the end. When he was ready to open the door, no Jack to enter the sweet life with him ... could it be sadder than this?  :\'(

[smartestsonia]

Can we say that Jack knew more about Ennis who never open himself than Ennis ever knew about Jack, who was an open book and always showed everything out? 

I think Ennis knew Jack loved him but he dint realize that intensity till he saw the shirts..As for Jack he knew that Ennis loved him and knew his fears too well. Its heart breaking to see that Ennis realized the intesnity too late..

[tpe]

In a way, that is similar to my opinion.
Maybe he understood what "sweet life" means adn why Jack wanted it. I think that he wanted it himself, but he shut the door of acceptance -- until the end. When he was ready to open the door, no Jack to enter the sweet life with him ... could it be sadder than this?  :\'(

I think Ennis knew Jack loved him but he dint realize that intensity till he saw the shirts..As for Jack he knew that Ennis loved him and knew his fears too well. Its heart breaking to see that Ennis realized the intesnity too late..

I think the realization of that love on both sides was imperfect while they lived.  In a sense, I think Jack reconciled himself to the imperfection -- as noted in the ss text for the Dozy Embrace.  I think he had come to the realization that love -- though it is imperfect -- is enough.

[vedrana]

I think the realization of that love on both sides was imperfect while they lived.  In a sense, I think Jack reconciled himself to the imperfection -- as noted in the ss text for the Dozy Embrace.  I think he had come to the realization that love -- though it is imperfect -- is enough.

I absolutely agree with the first part -both sides accepted an imperfect realization of love. Cos we (me too) often forgot that Jack agreed to meet Ennis once in a while in the middle of nowhere. He hoped that Ennis would accept more one day, but it was Jack who never put a real pressure on Ennis - never refuse to come, drove 14 hours to be rejected like a school boy, always so servile and benevolent. His tacitly acceptance of the situation also contributed the imperfection, even it wasn't willingly.

But if I understood well, you think that even imperfect, Jack thought that love is enough?? I wouldn't agree with this, cos the inability to be with Ennis made him a very unsatisfied and bitter person. I believe that he accepted it but very unwillingly.

[atalley]

I agree with you, Loreen.  The more the yrs. flew by, the less satisfied Jack was with "once in awhile"...especially after Ennis' divorce.

[tpe]

I absolutely agree with the first part -both sides accepted an imperfect realization of love. Cos we (me too) often forgot that Jack agreed to meet Ennis once in a while in the middle of nowhere. He hoped that Ennis would accept more one day, but it was Jack who never put a real pressure on Ennis - never refuse to come, drove 14 hours to be rejected like a school boy, always so servile and benevolent. His tacitly acceptance of the situation also contributed the imperfection, even it wasn't willingly.

But if I understood well, you think that even imperfect, Jack thought that love is enough?? I wouldn't agree with this, cos the inability to be with Ennis made him a very unsatisfied and bitter person. I believe that he accepted it but very unwillingly.

I base it off of what is written in the ss:

Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.

A. Proulx, Brokeback Mountain.

[vedrana]

I think the realization of that love on both sides was imperfect while they lived.  In a sense, I think Jack reconciled himself to the imperfection -- as noted in the ss text for the Dozy Embrace.  I think he had come to the realization that love -- though it is imperfect -- is enough.

I base it off of what is written in the ss:

Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.[/i]

A. Proulx, Brokeback Mountain.

Hm... I see his reconciliation with the situation, with the possibility that his patience would never be payed off and their "sweet life" would remain his "sweet dream". And this is said immidiately time after the FC, after he got rejected once again. But I don't see that he thought that it is enough. If so, he wouldn't talk to John Twist about some other man to come to LF. I believe that he really really  wanted that "sweet life" with Ennis, and that was the only thing that could make him happy.

OT: The part that cuts my heart is "their separate and difficult lives"... OMG, how that hurts! :\'(

[tpe]

Hm... I see his reconciliation with the situation, with the possibility that his patience would never be payed off and their "sweet life" would remain his "sweet dream". And this is said immidiately time after the FC, after he got rejected once again. But I don't see that he thought that it is enough. If so, he wouldn't talk to John Twist about some other man to come to LF. I believe that he really really  wanted that "sweet life" with Ennis, and that was the only thing that could make him happy.

OT: The part that cuts my heart is "their separate and difficult lives"... OMG, how that hurts! :\'(

In other threads, I had noted that moving on with Randall only meant that he had stopped believing that he could ever get Ennis to agree on the sweet life.  This is consistent with the quote from the ss: "let be, let be."  There is no bitterness there (although we see weariness in Jack's face in his final shot in the movie.)   The quote from the ss showed clearly that for Jack, the love was enough.  In other words, the love was no longer dependent on whether or not Ennis would join him in a "sweet life."    This is why he was able to move on.  Because the key to it all is in the said quote: that for all the imprefections of their bond, he would love Ennis even as he made plans to live with somebody else. 

   

[atalley]

In other threads, I had noted that moving on with Randall only meant that he had stopped believing that he could ever get Ennis to agree on the sweet life.  This is consistent with the quote from the ss: "let be, let be."  There is no bitterness there (although we see weariness in Jack's face in his final shot in the movie.)   The quote from the ss showed clearly that for Jack, the love was enough.  In other words, the love was no longer dependent on whether or not Ennis would join him in a "sweet life."    This is why he was able to move on.  Because the key to it all is in the said quote: that for all the imprefections of their bond, he would love Ennis even as he made plans to live with somebody else. 

   

I get very depressed when I think of Jack making plans to live with Randall.  I disliked him from the very beginning.

[Lobsel-Vith]

I get very depressed when I think of Jack making plans to live with Randall.  I disliked him from the very beginning.

Gosh I do too. Whenever I think about it, it just makes me sad. How Jack was able to move on, but Ennis couldn't. When he finds the shirts and breaks down because of it... The shirts symbollized what they had had. Jack moving on is beyond painful, and very saddening especially to Ennis. I'm pretty sure that he does see that, but their love was so powerful and true. Randall is the character I despire second to Jack's wife. Although, I won't get into it much longer, as I know I have gotten off topic, but if Ennis could have stayed with Jack, there wouldn't have been any Randall or his wife - but the two of them together, with their damn sweet life!

[vedrana]

I get very depressed when I think of Jack making plans to live with Randall.  I disliked him from the very beginning.

Gosh I do too. Whenever I think about it, it just makes me sad. How Jack was able to move on, but Ennis couldn't. When he finds the shirts and breaks down because of it... The shirts symbollized what they had had. Jack moving on is beyond painful, and very saddening especially to Ennis. I'm pretty sure that he does see that, but their love was so powerful and true. Randall is the character I despire second to Jack's wife. Although, I won't get into it much longer, as I know I have gotten off topic, but if Ennis could have stayed with Jack, there wouldn't have been any Randall or his wife - but the two of them together, with their damn sweet life!

I am glad that some Brokies agree with me on this one! 

[tpe]

I get very depressed when I think of Jack making plans to live with Randall.  I disliked him from the very beginning.

Gosh I do too. Whenever I think about it, it just makes me sad. How Jack was able to move on, but Ennis couldn't. When he finds the shirts and breaks down because of it... The shirts symbollized what they had had. Jack moving on is beyond painful, and very saddening especially to Ennis. I'm pretty sure that he does see that, but their love was so powerful and true. Randall is the character I despire second to Jack's wife. Although, I won't get into it much longer, as I know I have gotten off topic, but if Ennis could have stayed with Jack, there wouldn't have been any Randall or his wife - but the two of them together, with their damn sweet life!

Interesting.  Personally, I don't like or dislike Randall that much. 

But yes, echoing back the original topic, could Jack have said the same thing to Ennis: that it was because of him (Ennis) that he (Jack) was like this?

[myprivatejack]

Interesting.  Personally, I don't like or dislike Randall that much. 

But yes, echoing back the original topic, could Jack have said the same thing to Ennis: that it was because of him (Ennis) that he (Jack) was like this?

Absolutely.Even I believe that he could say this phrase with more reasons than Ennis himself.As a matter of fact,it's Jack who had undergone a greater change in his hopes,illusions,emotions and,as a result,his own way of being,far from this young and boyish sheep shepard who sang Pentecostal hymns.

[vedrana]

Interesting.  Personally, I don't like or dislike Randall that much. 

But yes, echoing back the original topic, could Jack have said the same thing to Ennis: that it was because of him (Ennis) that he (Jack) was like this?

I think that maybe at the point when Ennis said those accusatory words to Jack, Ennis he wasn't capable of thinking anything else, but how sad and betrayed he felt in his life struggle between the fear and desire to be with Jack. At that very moment even if Jack said the same words to him, Ennis wouldn' t react, as he was much too upset.

[vedrana]

Absolutely.Even I believe that he could say this phrase with more reasons than Ennis himself.As a matter of fact,it's Jack who had undergone a greater change in his hopes,illusions,emotions and,as a result,his own way of being,far from this young and boyish sheep shepard who sang Pentecostal hymns.

Change for worse, unfortunately! 

[smartestsonia]

I think that maybe at the point when Ennis said those accusatory words to Jack, Ennis he wasn't capable of thinking anything else, but how sad and betrayed he felt in his life struggle between the fear and desire to be with Jack. At that very moment even if Jack said the same words to him, Ennis wouldn' t react, as he was much too upset.

I feel the same dear..I think Ennis had reached a point where he saw what love has made him..His love for jack was so strong, deep and genuine that it actually ruled his life...His fears accompanied him and he lost his wife and so much but he still was with Jack...Jack and Ennis knew this very well that Ennis loved Jack with no limits and this love made him what he is today..All this must be going on in Ennis mind and if Jack would tell him that he is so because of Ennis then Ennis would have not reacted more than he did because he had been saturated with hurt and he would just walk away like he did..He would want the space and time...  :\'(

[tpe]

Absolutely.Even I believe that he could say this phrase with more reasons than Ennis himself.As a matter of fact,it's Jack who had undergone a greater change in his hopes,illusions,emotions and,as a result,his own way of being,far from this young and boyish sheep shepard who sang Pentecostal hymns.

I pretty much agree with you.  He had traversed the greater distance in life, and perhaps in a true sense, what he became what Ennis could never become.  Ironically, Ennis was a huge part of that journey.

[tpe]

I think that maybe at the point when Ennis said those accusatory words to Jack, Ennis he wasn't capable of thinking anything else, but how sad and betrayed he felt in his life struggle between the fear and desire to be with Jack. At that very moment even if Jack said the same words to him, Ennis wouldn' t react, as he was much too upset.

I feel the same dear..I think Ennis had reached a point where he saw what love has made him..His love for jack was so strong, deep and genuine that it actually ruled his life...His fears accompanied him and he lost his wife and so much but he still was with Jack...Jack and Ennis knew this very well that Ennis loved Jack with no limits and this love made him what he is today..All this must be going on in Ennis mind and if Jack would tell him that he is so because of Ennis then Ennis would have not reacted more than he did because he had been saturated with hurt and he would just walk away like he did..He would want the space and time...  :\'(

Perhaps had Jack said those same words, Ennis would have realized how much Jack had also suffered?  It could have been possible, in spite of the fact that he was very upset...

[tpe]

Change for worse, unfortunately! 

I don't think so.  It made Jack a better, more loving, and caring person.

[myprivatejack]

I don't think so.  It made Jack a better, more loving, and caring person.

Yes,to some extent...But when I said that Jack was who undergone the greatest change,far from the young sheep sheppard,I wasn't doing a qualitative comparison.I was referring to the fact that his way of being became more bitter,with less hopes and careless way of seeing life.In the sense you're referring to,of course the change was for better; almost always,difficulties make us grow as a person...

[vedrana]

I don't think so.  It made Jack a better, more loving, and caring person.

Yes,to some extent...But when I said that Jack was who undergone the greatest change,far from the young sheep sheppard,I wasn't doing a qualitative comparison.I was referring to the fact that his way of being became more bitter,with less hopes and careless way of seeing life.In the sense you're referring to,of course the change was for better; almost always,difficulties make us grow as a person...

I didn't think that he became a worse person, but bitter and empty, in any case -not happy! For me it was difficult to watch.
Also, IMO (and I have to say that when it comes to Jack - I cease to be reasonable) he was always caring and loving person. What more could anyone possibly expect from him? I can not resent him anything, even the fact that he wasn't persistent enough with Ennis and failed to put a little more pressure on that stubborn head of Ennis. So, IMO the years of yearning, not getting what he wanted the most didn't change him to become a better or worse person, but he had lost a lot of his happiness, his enthusiasm and dreams. That's the change I'm talking  about and for me it is a very sad part of the story. Love, the most beautiful thing that he ever felt, destroyed him in a way, cos the other part wasn't able to embrace him. Sad! :\'(

[smartestsonia]

Perhaps had Jack said those same words, Ennis would have realized how much Jack had also suffered?  It could have been possible, in spite of the fact that he was very upset...

I think that it would have made things horrible at that time...Seeing Ennis break down Jack did not have the heart to say that...If he would have Ennis would have been more shattered and Jack dint want it at that time...I feel Ennis realized that after the last confrontaion and so wanted to meet up with Jack again and make up with him..But as we see it was too late...

[tpe]

Yes,to some extent...But when I said that Jack was who undergone the greatest change,far from the young sheep sheppard,I wasn't doing a qualitative comparison.I was referring to the fact that his way of being became more bitter,with less hopes and careless way of seeing life.In the sense you're referring to,of course the change was for better; almost always,difficulties make us grow as a person...

I didn't think that he became a worse person, but bitter and empty, in any case -not happy! For me it was difficult to watch.
Also, IMO (and I have to say that when it comes to Jack - I cease to be reasonable) he was always caring and loving person. What more could anyone possibly expect from him? I can not resent him anything, even the fact that he wasn't persistent enough with Ennis and failed to put a little more pressure on that stubborn head of Ennis. So, IMO the years of yearning, not getting what he wanted the most didn't change him to become a better or worse person, but he had lost a lot of his happiness, his enthusiasm and dreams. That's the change I'm talking  about and for me it is a very sad part of the story. Love, the most beautiful thing that he ever felt, destroyed him in a way, cos the other part wasn't able to embrace him. Sad! :\'(

Sometimes, we aim too high so that we feel it is a failure when we fall short, in spite of the distance traveled.  I remember one of the last lines in the movie "Alexander", where the dead hero is memorialized with the words:His failure towers over other men's successes.

That's what a dreamer is.

[tpe]

I think that it would have made things horrible at that time...Seeing Ennis break down Jack did not have the heart to say that...If he would have Ennis would have been more shattered and Jack dint want it at that time...I feel Ennis realized that after the last confrontaion and so wanted to meet up with Jack again and make up with him..But as we see it was too late...

Perhaps.  But I somehow think that it was up at LF when Ennis did finally realize how Jack must have felt. 

[vedrana]

Sometimes, we aim too high so that we feel it is a failure when we fall short, in spite of the distance traveled.  I remember one of the last lines in the movie "Alexander", where the dead hero is memorialized with the words:His failure towers over other men's successes.

That's what a dreamer is.

Considering the stubbornness of Ennis and the whole society Jack was fighting with, his difficult situation and not compassionate people all around him, considering the time and the backward place he was living at, and Jack's pretty high goals - he was a dreamer indeed!