Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers

[tpe]

Well,I don't know as much English as to make an accurate differentiation,but I think it means the same in the end. Can't "I'm nowhere"be the same as "I'm lost",because I don't know where I'm ,where I go without you?.Wasn't this how Ennis really was without Jack-even if he never wanted to admit it-?.

Maybe the only time Ennis knew where he was, were the times spent with Jack. The rest of his life spent without Jack he felt as he was nowhere. 

Well, it is not exactly a direct or obvious translation.  In English, to be "somewhere" means making something out of yourself -- the same connotation as "you have arrived".  "I am lost" has a slightly different connotation.  You are neither here nore there -- you don't know where you stand.

[Lobsel-Vith]

Thank you,Thomas ¡  In this sense,Spanish translation speaks more about this,IMO.In it,Ennis says literally:-"It's because of you,Jack,that I'm like this; I'm nobody,I'm lost...".Who can say more with less words?.

I love this translation! He's lost because he can't accept himself, maybe? and that he sees that if he can't accept himself and be with Jack then he's nothing!   

My little analysis...

Maybe the only time Ennis knew where he was, were the times spent with Jack. The rest of his life spent without Jack he felt as he was nowhere. 

Well this is true, I think. When the reunion comes along Ennis couldn't wait for Jack to show up and when he did he lost control. Jack made Ennis who he is, and without Jack he can't be who he really is and without him, he is lost.

[myprivatejack]

I love this translation! He's lost because he can't accept himself, maybe? and that he sees that if he can't accept himself and be with Jack then he's nothing!   

My little analysis...

Well this is true, I think. When the reunion comes along Ennis couldn't wait for Jack to show up and when he did he lost control. Jack made Ennis who he is, and without Jack he can't be who he really is and without him, he is lost.

I think this is exact,thank you LV ¡ What you say specially in the second paragraph is what I meant about Spanish translation;without Jack he is not how he is really and deeply,let's say that he doesn't find his way,so he's lost...

[vedrana]

Well this is true, I think. When the reunion comes along Ennis couldn't wait for Jack to show up and when he did he lost control. Jack made Ennis who he is, and without Jack he can't be who he really is and without him, he is lost.

How deep and striking these words are, coming form Ennis! He, tacit, stoic man, who can stand anything is admitting that someone has influenced all his life and made him the way he is, and that he did all he did only for that someone. Coming from Ennis is very deep and very meaningful. And all he had to say was: I love you Jack!
But he couldn't!
And Heath was BEYOND PERFECT in that scene.  :\'(

[tpe]

I love this translation! He's lost because he can't accept himself, maybe? and that he sees that if he can't accept himself and be with Jack then he's nothing!   

For sure, I did feel that when he said "nowhere", I assumed that this was also an oblique reference to his being nowhere without Jack.

[myprivatejack]

How deep and striking these words are, coming form Ennis! He, tacit, stoic man, who can stand anything is admitting that someone has influenced all his life and made him the way he is, and that he did all he did only for that someone. Coming from Ennis is very deep and very meaningful. And all he had to say was: I love you Jack!
But he couldn't!
And Heath was BEYOND PERFECT in that scene.  :\'(

You're absolutely right here,Loreen ¡;How deep and striking there words are,coming from Ennis ¡.They have,IMO,another completely different meaning if they had been told by Jack,always more open,more willing to confess his dependence from Ennis.But I believe,on the contrary than you,that he didn't need to say "I love you,Jack¡";with these words,he already said it...

[vedrana]

You're absolutely right here,Loreen ¡;How deep and striking there words are,coming from Ennis ¡.They have,IMO,another completely different meaning if they had been told by Jack,always more open,more willing to confess his dependence from Ennis.But I believe,on the contrary than you,that he didn't need to say "I love you,Jack¡";with these words,he already said it...

I know babe! I agree on this with you. It is just that he said so many things to explain something that could be said in only 3 words...
Also, so many words said but I think that Jack didn't understand them. He only knew that Ennis is blaming him and that Ennis is hurt, but being hurt himself too, Jack couldn't recognize the hidden meaning of Ennis's words.  :\'(

[smartestsonia]

How deep and striking these words are, coming form Ennis! He, tacit, stoic man, who can stand anything is admitting that someone has influenced all his life and made him the way he is, and that he did all he did only for that someone. Coming from Ennis is very deep and very meaningful. And all he had to say was: I love you Jack!
But he couldn't!
And Heath was BEYOND PERFECT in that scene.  :\'(

Wow..Well said Loreen..
Love is what made Ennis so helpless and he felt that he is nothing...It was a combination of true, deep love and hurt of thinking that the one he loves has physical relations with someone else too..On the surface the line seems like a utter blame but deep down it shows forbidden love that he has for Jack all these years..One would not react so for anyone unless he does not mean much ....

[vedrana]

Wow..Well said Loreen..
Love is what made Ennis so helpless and he felt that he is nothing...It was a combination of true, deep love and hurt of thinking that the one he loves has physical relations with someone else too..On the surface the line seems like a utter blame but deep down it shows forbidden love that he has for Jack all these years..One would not react so for anyone unless he does not mean much ....

I said once in another thread that I believe that Ennis looked up to Jack, that Ennis thought of Jack as more interesting and more valuable than he is. Being needed by Jack meant a world to him, and now he heard that Jack also needed some other men.... that was a devastating cognition for Ennis... and just in that most hurtful time he admits that Jack is his reason for living and the one who could make him be alive... "Because of you Jack, I'm like this...."

Very powerful and sad is FC.... very sad... :\'( especially when you know that instead of resolving their relationship, the death is coming to separate their bodies and forever bound their souls.... :\'(

[traveller]

I know babe! I agree on this with you. It is just that he said so many things to explain something that could be said in only 3 words...
Also, so many words said but I think that Jack didn't understand them. He only knew that Ennis is blaming him and that Ennis is hurt, but being hurt himself too, Jack couldn't recognize the hidden meaning of Ennis's words.  :\'(

A few days ago I would say my interpretation is different but I have realised some changes in me. My acceptance for FC as the closing scene has been grown. Now I am able to admitt it could be like you said, Loreen. It's like I am ready to accept more pain than before. I still hope their reactions in FC were extreme because of "the years of thins unsaid" but that's only my hope.
I will keep on thinking.
I am still intrigued by fact Ennis did not say this sentence is ss. Does it mean that the movie scene was meant to tell us something that was told in the ss but couldn't been adopted into the movie?

[vedrana]

A few days ago I would say my interpretation is different but I have realised some changes in me. My acceptance for FC as the closing scene has been grown. Now I am able to admitt it could be like you said, Loreen. It's like I am ready to accept more pain than before. I still hope their reactions in FC were extreme because of "the years of thins unsaid" but that's only my hope.
I will keep on thinking.
I am still intrigued by fact Ennis did not say this sentence is ss. Does it mean that the movie scene was meant to tell us something that was told in the ss but couldn't been adopted into the movie?

Traveller, (putniče! ), I have changed so many times my opinion here, the way I experience some scenes, the message I get from a quote .... This is a process and it all leads to the better understanding of the movie and its' implementation in our being. Also, it is understandable as we were left with our own imagination and our own senses to accept the movie and many enigmatic pieces of it. There are a number of scenes where we are to conclude ourselves - the most notorious example is Jack's death. We don't know if he's killed or not. Many other parts too are enigmatic and open to our own interpretation, which can be changeable, right?

SS and movie differs up to a point, and not only this but many things were omitted/add in the movie. The thing from SS I'd like to hear the most in the movie is Ennis's "little darlin'" after the reunion kiss!  I'd so like to hear those words of affection, but ...

[traveller]

Traveller, (putniče! ), I have changed so many times my opinion here, the way I experience some scenes, the message I get from a quote .... This is a process and it all leads to the better understanding of the movie and its' implementation in our being. Also, it is understandable as we were left with our own imagination and our own senses to accept the movie and many enigmatic pieces of it. There are a number of scenes where we are to conclude ourselves - the most notorious example is Jack's death. We don't know if he's killed or not. Many other parts too are enigmatic and open to our own interpretation, which can be changeable, right?

SS and movie differs up to a point, and not only this but many things were omitted/add in the movie. The thing from SS I'd like to hear the most in the movie is Ennis's "little darlin'" after the reunion kiss!  I'd so like to hear those words of affection, but ...

I also miss Ennis's "little darlin" :\'(
I love to share your impresion of being in process and your openness. It's good not to be alone in this process.

I like reading ss because it helps me to understand. I like finding discrepancies between this one and the movie. I am thinking them over, try to find reason of omitting or adding. Sometimes I make joke at myself because of using so much of my brain, instead of just feeling.

What "putnice" means?

[vedrana]

I also miss Ennis's "little darlin" :\'(
I love to share your impresion of being in process and your openness. It's good not to be alone in this process.

I like reading ss because it helps me to understand. I like finding discrepancies between this one and the movie. I am thinking them over, try to find reason of omitting or adding. Sometimes I make joke at myself because of using so much of my brain, instead of just feeling.

What "putnice" means?

Hm... I believe that all of us are in this process in the different levels and intensity. It is always the most intense at the beginning.

Using brain is a good thing here, coz if you use only your feelings it would be very difficult for you. I know that it was for me! Better said it was unbearable. For a while I thought my head was going to explode. It is just this forum and endless exchanging of opinions,  sharing feelings with other (older) members here who all understand the pain, that helped me keep my PBS under control and not letting it concur me, but to improve me.

Putnik (putniče - is a form when I address you) is a traveler in Croatian, so I thought that the word would be similar in Polish, but obviously I was wrong!

[traveller]

May it be that is more difficult to control our feelings than thoughts? Sometimes I have problems to recognise which is though and which is feeling.
Traveller is in Polish "podróżnik" and female - traveller is "podróżniczka", having in mind gender correctness but I like better "putnice" as this word brings some fresh energy into my head.

[vedrana]

May it be that is more difficult to control our feelings than thoughts? Sometimes I have problems to recognise which is though and which is feeling.
Traveller is in Polish "podróżnik" and female - traveller is "podróżniczka", having in mind gender correctness but I like better "putnice" as this word brings some fresh energy into my head.

  It is similar, but not easy to connect the meaning if you really don't know it.

[tpe]

May it be that is more difficult to control our feelings than thoughts? Sometimes I have problems to recognise which is though and which is feeling.
Traveller is in Polish "podróżnik" and female - traveller is "podróżniczka", having in mind gender correctness but I like better "putnice" as this word brings some fresh energy into my head.

That's a good distinction here.  Feelings have a way of bubbling up, whereas thoughts can be "controlled" more easily, IMO.  I suppose that you are applying this to the context of Ennis opening his heart up to Jack in this scene -- exposing what he feels instead of what he thinks. 

[vedrana]

That's a good distinction here.  Feelings have a way of bubbling up, whereas thoughts can be "controlled" more easily, IMO.  I suppose that you are applying this to the context of Ennis opening his heart up to Jack in this scene -- exposing what he feels instead of what he thinks. 

Maybe both of them (E&J) reacted emotionally in the situation when they couldn't stand any more. And both express that in their own way.

That's why it is so hurtful - we finally find out what we only foreboded before - that they both have an enormous burden of the relationship they cherish and loved so much - Jack coz he couldn't have more, and Ennis coz he knew that Jack was unsatisfied with that! 

[traveller]

That's a good distinction here.  Feelings have a way of bubbling up, whereas thoughts can be "controlled" more easily, IMO.  I suppose that you are applying this to the context of Ennis opening his heart up to Jack in this scene -- exposing what he feels instead of what he thinks. 

Exactly like you said - "It's because of you, Jack..." scene was the huge and out of selfcontrol expression of Ennis's feelings. In this case I did not doubt it even for one single second.
However, I wonder if Ennis really was exposing what he thougt or maybe what he was taught to think (i suppose, I'm coming back to question of social constraints).

Maybe both of them (E&J) reacted emotionally in the situation when they couldn't stand any more. And both express that in their own way.

That's why it is so hurtful - we finally find out what we only foreboded before - that they both have an enormous burden of the relationship they cherish and loved so much - Jack coz he couldn't have more, and Ennis coz he knew that Jack was unsatisfied with that! 

I hope that Jack understood something more. I like to believe he understood not only Enni's pain (I find resistance in me to use word "unsatisfied") but also realized how much Ennis loved him for all his life. Maybe this realisation was one of the reason he got into
the relation with Randall.

[atalley]

I think that Jack knew how much Ennis loved him, but twice a yr. just didn't "cut it" in Jack's eyes.

[vedrana]

Exactly like you said - "It's because of you, Jack..." scene was the huge and out of selfcontrol expression of Ennis's feelings. In this case I did not doubt it even for one single second.
However, I wonder if Ennis really was exposing what he thougt or maybe what he was taught to think (i suppose, I'm coming back to question of social constraints).
I hope that Jack understood something more. I like to believe he understood not only Enni's pain (I find resistance in me to use word "unsatisfied") but also realized how much Ennis loved him for all his life. Maybe this realisation was one of the reason he got into
the relation with Randall.

I think that Jack knew how much Ennis loved him, but twice a yr. just didn't "cut it" in Jack's eyes.

Sure Jack understood! I think that he understood everyone in his benevolent way, the most his love- Ennis. But as Atalley said - twice a year just wasn't enough.

[tpe]

Maybe both of them (E&J) reacted emotionally in the situation when they couldn't stand any more. And both express that in their own way.

That's why it is so hurtful - we finally find out what we only foreboded before - that they both have an enormous burden of the relationship they cherish and loved so much - Jack coz he couldn't have more, and Ennis coz he knew that Jack was unsatisfied with that! 

Well, the reaction was emotional as well as cathartic -- a purging of pent up feelings without benefit of careful thought or reasoning.

[tpe]

Exactly like you said - "It's because of you, Jack..." scene was the huge and out of selfcontrol expression of Ennis's feelings. In this case I did not doubt it even for one single second.
However, I wonder if Ennis really was exposing what he thougt or maybe what he was taught to think (i suppose, I'm coming back to question of social constraints).
I hope that Jack understood something more. I like to believe he understood not only Enni's pain (I find resistance in me to use word "unsatisfied") but also realized how much Ennis loved him for all his life. Maybe this realisation was one of the reason he got into
the relation with Randall.

I bet Ennis didn't even know what to think of it all -- he was just reacting from the gut.    "It's because of you..." was clearly a kind of lashing out.  Sure, some of the thoughts that he kept hidden deep inside of him surfaced.  But the way it all came out was a bit too incoherent.  He had no control over how he expressed it, if you know what I mean.

And yes, I think that Jack understood Ennis's love and the accompanying limitations -- most especially in this scene.  That was why he didn't have the heart to stay away when Ennis collapsed.  He probably felt that at that stage, he was huting Ennis more than he was helping him come to terms with himself and with his love for Jack.

[tpe]

I think that Jack knew how much Ennis loved him, but twice a yr. just didn't "cut it" in Jack's eyes.

Very true.

[atalley]

I love the fact that even though Jack was hurting in the FC, that he embraced Ennis when Ennis needed him the most.  Now THAT is romantic!  He knew that Ennis was at the end of his rope as well.  Also, I just love the line "I just can't stand this anymore, Jack."  I took it to mean that being w/o Jack was eating him up inside.  Any others have ideas about this?

[rimasworld]

I love the fact that even though Jack was hurting in the FC, that he embraced Ennis when Ennis needed him the most.  Now THAT is romantic!  He knew that Ennis was at the end of his rope as well.  Also, I just love the line "I just can't stand this anymore, Jack."  I took it to mean that being w/o Jack was eating him up inside.  Any others have ideas about this?

I kind of feel the same way, that Ennis was so broken down after putting all the limitations on himself, so tired of living a double life, just worn out. They were both so hurt by all the strain on the relationship. I felt both of their pain.

[tpe]

I love the fact that even though Jack was hurting in the FC, that he embraced Ennis when Ennis needed him the most.  Now THAT is romantic!  He knew that Ennis was at the end of his rope as well.  Also, I just love the line "I just can't stand this anymore, Jack."  I took it to mean that being w/o Jack was eating him up inside.  Any others have ideas about this?

I kind of feel the same way, that Ennis was so broken down after putting all the limitations on himself, so tired of living a double life, just worn out. They were both so hurt by all the strain on the relationship. I felt both of their pain.

I think Jack's hug is a kind of answer to the DE.  Yes, I love how he responded this way, in spite of his deep frustration and anger.  It's an indicator of how much he loved Ennis. 

Did Jack accept what Ennis said?  I think rather than seeing it as Ennis blaming him (jack) for his failures, Jack understood it as Ennis confessing how much their love had completely overpowered him.

[traveller]

In my perception "it's because of you, Jack..." scene is more screaming for help, than blaming Jack. The agressive, out of control but still scream for help. I love to think that "I just can't stand this anymore" was heard by Jack as "I can't stand without you, Jack. Forgive I am not strong enough to change"
And Jack forgave.

[myprivatejack]

In my perception "it's because of you, Jack..." scene is more screaming for help, than blaming Jack. The aggressive, out of control but still scream for help. I love to think that "I just can't stand this anymore" was heard by Jack as "I can't stand without you, Jack. Forgive I am not strong enough to change"
And Jack forgave.

Yes,I tend to agree in that it's not as much a kind of blaming Jack as an scream for help.A kind of telling Jack:-Please,forgive me for my faults,it's simply that I don't know how to love you,but I really do.Help me to learn it,but don't leave me,please,I'm lost without you..."So,maybe,it's better a scream of love... :\'(

[holyfool]

   


                       - can't remember this scene, man! i have to like rent or get this movie and watch it again. 

                         i recall delmar, the poor dude, was like a ticking bomb, like all repressed and depressed.

[tpe]

In my perception "it's because of you, Jack..." scene is more screaming for help, than blaming Jack. The agressive, out of control but still scream for help. I love to think that "I just can't stand this anymore" was heard by Jack as "I can't stand without you, Jack. Forgive I am not strong enough to change"
And Jack forgave.

Very good point.  Very perceptive.

I personally think that it is both: a lashing out in frustration, and a plea to be taken out of himself.

I love the way you interpret "I just can't stand this anymore"!