Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers

[myprivatejack]

Unfortunately, it is often so in the RL too - being afraid of losing something, we avoid taking the proper steps, and finally we lose much more!

In their case the loss was unimaginable! :\'(

Yes,you're right...It seems inherent to human being to learn from things only when these have happenned,and not for good...But in this case,I guess that Jack knew Ennis much better even than himself,so I knew for sure that putting him against the ropes too early,in a kind of FC much years before,could have had a contrary effect.Ennis would have been more closed in his shell,because he would have been afraid of the immediacy of giving Jack an answer about something that had been his main fear during years.It's such a pity,however¡... :\'(

[smartestsonia]

Yup! And, besides shirts - the biggest strike for our hearts!  :\'( Especially because we were prepared for a solution, for a change, for (if we are allowed to hope) a sweet life.... the words were finally spoken out, the truth as much as it was hurtful was told, a form of love statements were said from both sides, Jack embraced Ennis in the end... and then... a knife in the back! Jack died!

I don't know if I admitted this before, and I think not, coz it's stupid - but for a while I hated AP for killing Jack! :\'( :\'( :\'(

I can completely understand this....Jack's death has made this story so impactful..Seriously, the loss of Jack and Ennis living alone for the rest of his life haunts our thoughts...BBM has become an eternal story for alot of reasons including Jack's death and his death made us longing for him forever..

Ang definitely knew how to hit the human hearts' chord so hard that the pain vibrates all along....Very few directors know how to get that side of humans emotionality for good...

I like the bold part - "easier, if not completely right"! Yup! Both better than the final outcome!

I have always believed this....I have always thoughts that the timing ff eveyrthing happening with Ennis and Jack was really bad...If Ennis would have met him after FC then even if all the wounds would not have recovered, atleast there would be a solace in Ennis and Jack's heart that all the repressed feelings r out and Jack and Ennis would say it open how much they mean to each other and things would have been different..But, alas, it was too too late

[tpe]

Yes,this subject has already appeared in some other occasions,and I have always agreed in that Jack's fear to push Ennis too much against the ropes was a great obstacle during too many years.Surely,he was afraid of him running away,and losing him,but this joined to their real lack of communication in the subjects that really affected them the most,were a real and drmatic lost of time for them.

Jack I think tried a number of times, but he always backed down because of his own fear that Ennis would smply balk.  Nonetheless, I think that Jack should have tried to continue the discussion -- rather than simply leaving the field to Ennis.  I think especially of the scene by the river, where Jack said he was "thinking out loud".  Rather than run away, he should have acknowledged that those where true difficulties and explored whether or not Ennis was simply hiding behind them. 

But perhaps this was too much to ask of Jack.  It does take 2 to tango.

[myprivatejack]

Jack I think tried a number of times, but he always backed down because of his own fear that Ennis would smply balk.  Nonetheless, I think that Jack should have tried to continue the discussion -- rather than simply leaving the field to Ennis.  I think especially of the scene by the river, where Jack said he was "thinking out loud".  Rather than run away, he should have acknowledged that those where true difficulties and explored whether or not Ennis was simply hiding behind them. 

But perhaps this was too much to ask of Jack.  It does take 2 to tango.

Yes,I also think in this scene as one of the opportunities when Jack had could moved the ball to his roof by making Ennis understand what kind of environment they could find in Texas,f.e.Although it was difficult,I guess,trying to reason with an Ennis in such a cinic state of mind like this,in almost 20 years there could have had many opportunities to speak about their present and future without the bitterness of the FC...
Very often,we leave talking about something important in our lives for fear,and these constant silences grow inside us until they explode;that's when we talk about this subject in the worst way we can,it's to say,with bitterness,sarcasm and telling things all of a sudden...And it's obvious that Ennis and Jack,for whatever reasons,had this behaviour during all their lives...until they exploded in a FC where all the hidden feelings came out without control nor reason...

[vedrana]

I can completely understand this....Jack's death has made this story so impactful..Seriously, the loss of Jack and Ennis living alone for the rest of his life haunts our thoughts...BBM has become an eternal story for alot of reasons including Jack's death and his death made us longing for him forever..

Ang definitely knew how to hit the human hearts' chord so hard that the pain vibrates all along....Very few directors know how to get that side of humans emotionality for good...

I have always believed this....I have always thoughts that the timing ff eveyrthing happening with Ennis and Jack was really bad...If Ennis would have met him after FC then even if all the wounds would not have recovered, atleast there would be a solace in Ennis and Jack's heart that all the repressed feelings r out and Jack and Ennis would say it open how much they mean to each other and things would have been different..But, alas, it was too too late

AP said that this was the only possible ending. And I am deeply aware that had Jack lived, we would have never feel so profoundly touched as we do now. So... if we change the end - it would be just an ordinary story. But - the only thing we really want to do is exactly -changing the end! That's so weird. 

FC had a perfect timing in SS/movie to make us more desperate for the unfortunate death of Jack Twist. We were prepared to the possibility of positive changes, Ennis accepting Jack's infidelity in the past and maybe even considering the "sweet life".

I remember here - the first time I watched BBM (and I had no feelings for Ennis or for Jack at the time), when Jack said accusingly: "I had... once!" that I was thinking - Well, what changed? You can still have it! Maybe now you can make him change his mind... I think that we all think so there - you still have the chance! You go boys, take that chance... But they never grab it. It slipped away... Even so, in a way, they told each other how they feel for each other. And if Ennis didn't completely understand that there, then he did in LF... :\'(

[tpe]

Yes,I also think in this scene as one of the opportunities when Jack had could moved the ball to his roof by making Ennis understand what kind of environment they could find in Texas,f.e.Although it was difficult,I guess,trying to reason with an Ennis in such a cinic state of mind like this,in almost 20 years there could have had many opportunities to speak about their present and future without the bitterness of the FC...
Very often,we leave talking about something important in our lives for fear,and these constant silences grow inside us until they explode;that's when we talk about this subject in the worst way we can,it's to say,with bitterness,sarcasm and telling things all of a sudden...And it's obvious that Ennis and Jack,for whatever reasons,had this behaviour during all their lives...until they exploded in a FC where all the hidden feelings came out without control nor reason...

Yes, when it comes to the things that really matter, we sometimes tend to delay, because we are afraid of any momentous consequences that may unfold, quickly forgetting that the longer the delay, the harding things become to turn around.

Jack perhaps had too much patience.  But he may also have been too afraid of losing Ennis, and was all too willing to bide his time so long as the door was left a little open and nothing got resolved.

[myprivatejack]

Yes, when it comes to the things that really matter, we sometimes tend to delay, because we are afraid of any momentous consequences that may unfold, quickly forgetting that the longer the delay, the harding things become to turn around.Jack perhaps had too much patience.  But he may also have been too afraid of losing Ennis, and was all too willing to bide his time so long as the door was left a little open and nothing got resolved.

Yes,this is true...But sometimes-very often-we preferred to postpone the great decision by keeping what we have.Insecure,unsatisfactory,in a way we don't like at all,but at least WE HAVE IT.And we're able to delay arguments and decisions,even if we know that the more we last,the most difficult it will be after,if this means to save what we have.If being too much in a hurry could mean loosing this imperfect situation for the nothing.
And I guess that this is what Jack was afraid of,even if this situation-so many times delayed in its solution-was clearly painful for him;but he must think that in love sometimes is better to have 50% of something regular than 100% nothing,whatever god it could be...

[smartestsonia]

AP said that this was the only possible ending. And I am deeply aware that had Jack lived, we would have never feel so profoundly touched as we do now. So... if we change the end - it would be just an ordinary story. But - the only thing we really want to do is exactly -changing the end! That's so weird. 

FC had a perfect timing in SS/movie to make us more desperate for the unfortunate death of Jack Twist. We were prepared to the possibility of positive changes, Ennis accepting Jack's infidelity in the past and maybe even considering the "sweet life".

I remember here - the first time I watched BBM (and I had no feelings for Ennis or for Jack at the time), when Jack said accusingly: "I had... once!" that I was thinking - Well, what changed? You can still have it! Maybe now you can make him change his mind... I think that we all think so there - you still have the chance! You go boys, take that chance... But they never grab it. It slipped away... Even so, in a way, they told each other how they feel for each other. And if Ennis didn't completely understand that there, then he did in LF... :\'(

This is so true....If BBM had an happy ending then we all would be so happy..The intensity of hurt and PBS we face would not have been there...Ang knew that he is making a film that will impact generations and the tragic end of the film has made it immortal in our minds and in the generations to come..Ya, there was a chance of their "sweet life" if Jack would have not been taken away at that time..

As u said, we r so deeply wounded with the end but know that this film is an eternal masterpiece of love that could not be possbile in the open when Jack was alive and then when there was hope, he was gone..But we know that this is what grips us and we want to change that...A very strong and helpless feeling....

[vedrana]

This is so true....If BBM had an happy ending then we all would be so happy..The intensity of hurt and PBS we face would not have been there...Ang knew that he is making a film that will impact generations and the tragic end of the film has made it immortal in our minds and in the generations to come..Ya, there was a chance of their "sweet life" if Jack would have not been taken away at that time..

As u said, we r so deeply wounded with the end but know that this film is an eternal masterpiece of love that could not be possbile in the open when Jack was alive and then when there was hope, he was gone..But we know that this is what grips us and we want to change that...A very strong and helpless feeling....

What I can say for sure is that BBM changed me for good. Nothing will ever be the same after my PBS! 

IMHO, the SS and the movie were like a trigger points to provoke an avalanche of many other possible outcome of the story (in our hearts) and in my mind I think of Ennis and Jack in the earthly paradise of their sweet life. The thing that's sometimes disturbing me killing me more than the sad ending of their beautiful love is that Ennis is not with us any more...  Strange, but... I just feel that way...

Uh, I am way OT....

[traveller]

What I can say for sure is that BBM changed me for good. Nothing will ever be the same after my PBS! 

IMHO, the SS and the movie were like a trigger points to provoke an avalanche of many other possible outcome of the story (in our hearts) and in my mind I think of Ennis and Jack in the earthly paradise of their sweet life. The thing that's sometimes disturbing me killing me more than the sad ending of their beautiful love is that Ennis is not with us any more...  Strange, but... I just feel that way...

Uh, I am way OT....

Sorry for  but could not stay out and do not send the warm  for Loreen.
I feel similar. Not exactly the same but similar. Not knowing which one of them is real and which one is fictional, I don't want to believe Heath is really gone and Ennis will never come back. I close my eyes to not see the truth. Like the kid closing his eyes do not see what makes him scared. You are not alone with your sorrow, Loreen.

[traveller]

Thank all of you for the wonderful discussion of what Jack could (should?) do to try to affect Ennis and make him step into their sweet life. Reading your posts let me realize so clearly that also Jack was inhibited by his fear, fear of loosing Enis. Poor Jack:-( Poor Ennis:-( Both bound by their fears. Remembering discussion in thread "Which is the Greater Sorrow" I would say that fear was the only one sin in their relation.  If there is something they should repent of, these are their fears. Different but somehow so similar :\'(

[vedrana]

Sorry for  but could not stay out and do not send the warm  for Loreen.
I feel similar. Not exactly the same but similar. Not knowing which one of them is real and which one is fictional, I don't want to believe Heath is really gone and Ennis will never come back. I close my eyes to not see the truth. Like the kid closing his eyes do not see what makes him scared. You are not alone with your sorrow, Loreen.

Thanks for the supporting words babe!

And to go back to the topic I can only say: It's because of you Ennis and Jack, that I'm like this...

 

[tpe]

Yes,this is true...But sometimes-very often-we preferred to postpone the great decision by keeping what we have.Insecure,unsatisfactory,in a way we don't like at all,but at least WE HAVE IT.And we're able to delay arguments and decisions,even if we know that the more we last,the most difficult it will be after,if this means to save what we have.If being too much in a hurry could mean loosing this imperfect situation for the nothing.
And I guess that this is what Jack was afraid of,even if this situation-so many times delayed in its solution-was clearly painful for him;but he must think that in love sometimes is better to have 50% of something regular than 100% nothing,whatever god it could be...

The irony of it all is that very often, we lose what we have precisely this way.  Especially in love.  The more we cling to the status quo and resist the inevitable, the faster it slips away.  And by not doing anything, we simply move towards deeper despeartion.  One of the beauties of film is to see Jack take on an increasingly desperate stance -- his drinking and melancholy in the last years emerge so naturally from his inability to push for what he believed in.

He had forgotten that he had "hooked" Ennis in the first place by forcing the issue -- in FNIT.

[tpe]

Thank all of you for the wonderful discussion of what Jack could (should?) do to try to affect Ennis and make him step into their sweet life. Reading your posts let me realize so clearly that also Jack was inhibited by his fear, fear of loosing Enis. Poor Jack:-( Poor Ennis:-( Both bound by their fears. Remembering discussion in thread "Which is the Greater Sorrow" I would say that fear was the only one sin in their relation.  If there is something they should repent of, these are their fears. Different but somehow so similar :\'(

Exactly -- Jack succumbed to his fear of losing Ennis if he forced the issue about having a life together.  It is a pendant to Ennis's own fear of leading the life that he really wanted to live.  BBM is, in fact, as study of fear.  And ironically -- it is this fear that would have allowed Jack to say the same thing to Ennis:  "It's because of you, Ennis, that I'm like this..."

[myprivatejack]

What I can say for sure is that BBM changed me for good. Nothing will ever be the same after my PBS! 

IMHO, the SS and the movie were like a trigger points to provoke an avalanche of many other possible outcome of the story (in our hearts) and in my mind I think of Ennis and Jack in the earthly paradise of their sweet life. The thing that's sometimes disturbing me killing me more than the sad ending of their beautiful love is that Ennis is not with us any more...  Strange, but... I just feel that way...

Uh, I am way OT....

Sorry for  but could not stay out and do not send the warm  for Loreen.
I feel similar. Not exactly the same but similar. Not knowing which one of them is real and which one is fictional, I don't want to believe Heath is really gone and Ennis will never come back. I close my eyes to not see the truth. Like the kid closing his eyes do not see what makes him scared. You are not alone with your sorrow, Loreen.

Loreen and Traveller, I think this feeling you describe is very similar to what all of us have felt in some moment of our PBS.But I have realised in the end that only Heath has gone,unluckily;Ennis is an immortal character who will remains forever into our hearts and minds.As long as we feel this empathy for any of them,or for both of them,Ennis will be alive into us,and his,their,sacrifice,will be forever a proof that love always win,even if it's far beyond death...So,keep on loving Heath,Ennis and Jack so that their message can be diminished in our feelings,and they will be forever alive.A great  again for whoever can need it.

[myprivatejack]

Exactly -- Jack succumbed to his fear of losing Ennis if he forced the issue about having a life together.  It is a pendant to Ennis's own fear of leading the life that he really wanted to live.  BBM is, in fact, as study of fear.  And ironically -- it is this fear that would have allowed Jack to say the same thing to Ennis:  "It's because of you, Ennis, that I'm like this..."

That is ¡An study of fear;fear of society,fear of having a love,fear of losing it,even fear of themselves and fear f the other one...And I also agree in that this phrase could be said for any of them,each one for their reasons,each one being right in their own way...

[smartestsonia]

  I agree with u all and all your posts r beautiful and very touching..
Our love for Ennis and Jack is eternal..

Getting back to the topic, for Ennis to say the words to Jack that it is because of him that he is like this shows that their love was such a force that ruled his life..Whether Jack was in front of him or not, his love was always with Ennis and his entire life was surrounded by the feelings of Jack which never left him...Its actually the love Ennis had for Jack which made him say those words..His life was all for Jack..Ya..I agree that the dream of the "Sweet life", could not be possible when they were young bacause Ennis could not let his fears out but even if all was in secret to Ennis, Jack was most important and the love of his life..After knowing that Jack was with other men, the love that Ennis had for him came out like sadnees and hurt and with that came the words "Its because of u...."

[traveller]

I totally agree that his love for Jack made Ennis say these words.
I know some members believe that the reason of Ennis's reaction was his homophony. I never thought that way. I never believed Ennis's homophony was the real obstacle. But it's only my interpretation. It could be wrong. I believe Ennis was inhibited by his social constraints, not necessary homophony as this one implies not only fear of being in not-accepted minority but also some kind of imprinted aversion to emotional, physical and sexual intimacy with person of the same gender.

Coming back to your post I only would like to add that in my perception Ennis's "It's because of..." was to some degree his uncontrolled and born of his fear of loosing his Little Darlin, reaction to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" :\'(

[tpe]

That is ¡An study of fear;fear of society,fear of having a love,fear of losing it,even fear of themselves and fear f the other one...And I also agree in that this phrase could be said for any of them,each one for their reasons,each one being right in their own way...

Each one had their own reasons, but for some cruel twist of fate, both were blind for a very long time: blind that at the root of the other's fear is a love that was too strong for either one of them.

[tpe]

I agree with u all and all your posts r beautiful and very touching..
Our love for Ennis and Jack is eternal..

Getting back to the topic, for Ennis to say the words to Jack that it is because of him that he is like this shows that their love was such a force that ruled his life..Whether Jack was in front of him or not, his love was always with Ennis and his entire life was surrounded by the feelings of Jack which never left him...Its actually the love Ennis had for Jack which made him say those words..His life was all for Jack..Ya..I agree that the dream of the "Sweet life", could not be possible when they were young bacause Ennis could not let his fears out but even if all was in secret to Ennis, Jack was most important and the love of his life..After knowing that Jack was with other men, the love that Ennis had for him came out like sadnees and hurt and with that came the words "Its because of u...."

Yes, this is what I meant in my last post abouty "blindness".  I strongly agree that for both of them: "their love was such a force that ruled his life."  It is a pity that:

1.  Ennis didn't realize that Jack wanted more than just once-in-a-blue-moon companionship up in the mountains and that Jack's love for him went beyond all that.

And:

2.  Jack didn't realize the true depth of Ennis's love -- deep enough to challenge a lifetime of fear and loneliness, and a faithfulness that was beyond death.

[vedrana]

Each one had their own reasons, but for some cruel twist of fate, both were blind for a very long time: blind that at the root of the other's fear is a love that was too strong for either one of them.

This is so beautiful!

[vedrana]

Yes, this is what I meant in my last post abouty "blindness".  I strongly agree that for both of them: "their love was such a force that ruled his life."  It is a pity that:

1.  Ennis didn't realize that Jack wanted more than just once-in-a-blue-moon companionship up in the mountains and that Jack's love for him went beyond all that.

And:

2.  Jack didn't realize the true depth of Ennis's love -- deep enough to challenge a lifetime of fear and loneliness, and a faithfulness that was beyond death.

  You are truly inspired today! 

[tpe]

I totally agree that his love for Jack made Ennis say these words.
I know some members believe that the reason of Ennis's reaction was his homophony. I never thought that way. I never believed Ennis's homophony was the real obstacle. But it's only my interpretation. It could be wrong. I believe Ennis was inhibited by his social constraints, not necessary homophony as this one implies not only fear of being in not-accepted minority but also some kind of imprinted aversion to emotional, physical and sexual intimacy with person of the same gender.

Coming back to your post I only would like to add that in my perception Ennis's "It's because of..." was to some degree his uncontrolled and born of his fear of loosing his Little Darlin, reaction to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" :\'(

This is a very interesting POV, traveller.  It differs from mine, to be sure, but I see your point.  Homophobia may or may not be understood within a greater societal context. 

And yes, Ennis was reacting to Jack's frustration -- the thought of losing Jack because of his inability to move on weas tearing Ennis apart...

[tpe]

You are truly inspired today! 

Thanks loreen.  OT: computer problems this morning here at work perhaps may have something to do with it!   

[vedrana]

Thanks loreen.  OT: computer problems this morning here at work perhaps may have something to do with it!   

OT: Maybe, but it a long shot! 

[myprivatejack]

I totally agree that his love for Jack made Ennis say these words.
I know some members believe that the reason of Ennis's reaction was his homophony. I never thought that way. I never believed Ennis's homophony was the real obstacle. But it's only my interpretation. It could be wrong. I believe Ennis was inhibited by his social constraints, not necessary homophony as this one implies not only fear of being in not-accepted minority but also some kind of imprinted aversion to emotional, physical and sexual intimacy with person of the same gender.

Coming back to your post I only would like to add that in my perception Ennis's "It's because of..." was to some degree his uncontrolled and born of his fear of loosing his Little Darlin, reaction to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" :\'(

Beautiful post,Traveller,even if I don't agree completely.I really believe that Ennis homophobia played a great role in all their situation,and that it was also the real obstacle.Neither his economical duties with his girls-whatever true they were-,nor a new job he couldn't lose,were the REAL reason.The "weakest" point in Ennis mind was his inner struggle between the "want" and the "must",and this struggle was dictated almost all his life by fear of being what he was; a man in love with another man.I have always believed also that very often Ennis not only was afraid of,but also somehow "hated" Jack for what he made him feel and himself for being able of feeling it.
But,in spite of all this,his reaction during FC wasn't dictated by homophobia,not this time;it was,IMO,a burst of everything he had inside himself during so many years,a kind of relief from the jealousy attack he had previously had and,mainly and above all,the fear of losing Jack-as you said so wonderfully in your post-.He realised then that all what his lover was saying was true,he knew much before that it was;but hearing them in Jack's voice was a kind of confirmation to him,the confirmation that this one was arriving to something similar to a point of no return.I said in a former post not so long ago that it was all a love's declaration "Ennis style";too late,in the worst moment maybe,but love was dictating this phrase.

[traveller]

Thank you for you friendly respecting of my view. I am afraid my opinion on Ennis's homophobia made me one person minority but I had to share this one with you as knowing your thoughts is always very important and invaluable lesson for me. It helps so much to verify my own comprehension.

I told you I don't really believe in Ennis's homophobia as I think he gave up this one when he let himself for deep and true intimacy with Jack. For me it was like crossing the boarder.
Ennis left behind his hatred against gays but was certainly still carried a lot of his fears. IMO.

As far as I can remember  I also hated gays and lesbians when I was a child. My hatred was reflecting the opinions of my environs and my terrible fear of  being sent to hell:-) As a teenager I begun to follow my own way and made the acceptance and liberal attitude one of the basic principles of my own philosophy.
I was proud of my personal change but it came the day when I had to call this one in question. It was the day when one of my colleagues admitted to be a lesbian and simply came out. I was shocked  not by her sexual orientation but by my own reaction. From the outside I was acting like the liberal and open person. It was not difficult as we both were lucky to be part of “politically correct small society”. The most important was my inside because I felt I built the invisible wall between us. The truth is we have never been more than just fellow workers but the wall was the fact. I realized I was somehow afraid of her. It was like aversion, lack of trust, and something more that I don't want to remember. She left for another city and I lost my faith that I really overcame my childhood's beliefs.

And then came one spring that show me the real difference between “homophobic person” and “not homophobic person”. I felt in love with women and I didn't reject this one. I didn't overcame my  social fear and never came out but I certainly experienced that what really matters is love and not  gender. I think it is somehow like Ennis's situation – never overcoming social fear but loosing his belief that love is reserved for men/women couple and what even more important loosing his aversion for intimacy with men. With Jack.

It seems to me that even if we declare ourselves as not homophobic person, we can't be sure of that as long as we are not sure of our inner approval to be very close with the person of the same gender. Not necessary to be but to accept the possibility.
It seems to me that being so close with the person of the same sex as Ennis was with Jack, excludes the homophobia.

[tpe]

Thank you for you friendly respecting of my view. I am afraid my opinion on Ennis's homophobia made me one person minority but I had to share this one with you as knowing your thoughts is always very important and invaluable lesson for me. It helps so much to verify my own comprehension.

I told you I don't really believe in Ennis's homophobia as I think he gave up this one when he let himself for deep and true intimacy with Jack. For me it was like crossing the boarder.
Ennis left behind his hatred against gays but was certainly still carried a lot of his fears. IMO.

As far as I can remember  I also hated gays and lesbians when I was a child. My hatred was reflecting the opinions of my environs and my terrible fear of  being sent to hell:-) As a teenager I begun to follow my own way and made the acceptance and liberal attitude one of the basic principles of my own philosophy.
I was proud of my personal change but it came the day when I had to call this one in question. It was the day when one of my colleagues admitted to be a lesbian and simply came out. I was shocked  not by her sexual orientation but by my own reaction. From the outside I was acting like the liberal and open person. It was not difficult as we both were lucky to be part of “politically correct small society”. The most important was my inside because I felt I built the invisible wall between us. The truth is we have never been more than just fellow workers but the wall was the fact. I realized I was somehow afraid of her. It was like aversion, lack of trust, and something more that I don't want to remember. She left for another city and I lost my faith that I really overcame my childhood's beliefs.

And then came one spring that show me the real difference between “homophobic person” and “not homophobic person”. I felt in love with women and I didn't reject this one. I didn't overcame my  social fear and never came out but I certainly experienced that what really matters is love and not  gender. I think it is somehow like Ennis's situation – never overcoming social fear but loosing his belief that love is reserved for men/women couple and what even more important loosing his aversion for intimacy with men. With Jack.

It seems to me that even if we declare ourselves as not homophobic person, we can't be sure of that as long as we are not sure of our inner approval to be very close with the person of the same gender. Not necessary to be but to accept the possibility.
It seems to me that being so close with the person of the same sex as Ennis was with Jack, excludes the homophobia.

You bring out the distinction quite well, traveller.  There is a distinction between true individual homophobia and fear inculcated by a homophobic society.    Although I do personally think that there was indeed a core of homophobia in Ennis that struggled against his own nature and feelings, I also agree that a great deal of it also had to do with the fear of going against a disapproving society.

It is up to each of us, I guess.  The interpretation of the Last Confrontation would assume a different light, depending on what POV we take.  But there is no right or wrong answer in this.  There is only the way in how this scene and the painful exchange between Ennis and Jack speaks to each of us.

[vedrana]

I told you I don't really believe in Ennis's homophobia as I think he gave up this one when he let himself for deep and true intimacy with Jack. For me it was like crossing the boarder.
Ennis left behind his hatred against gays but was certainly still carried a lot of his fears. IMO.

It seems to me that even if we declare ourselves as not homophobic person, we can't be sure of that as long as we are not sure of our inner approval to be very close with the person of the same gender. Not necessary to be but to accept the possibility.
It seems to me that being so close with the person of the same sex as Ennis was with Jack, excludes the homophobia.

Hm... this is an interesting POV.

I also think that Ennis entering the tent left all his fears and homophobia behind. That was one moment on mountains, 1963. when nothin seemed wrong...

I can't remember though the outcome of a conversation here about - what Ennis thought about their relationship in whole, how did he experienced "this thing", what was he thinking about his feelings for Jack and Jack's for him until he finally found the shirts? If not for love, how could he explain subjecting all his life to those few times "fishing trips" a year with Jack? For me it is a mystery.

Still his very rude words in FC : "... for the boys like you!"... meaning - "for the queers like you!" clearly showed that his individual homophobia has not been overcome, over long 20 years.
He had it all the time in himself, and now I am thinking that maybe it was the bigger reason for refusing Jack so many times than a fear of the society condemn itself. Coz his father didn't only left an aboriginal fear in him, but also a disgust for the "queers". His love and need for Jack was too strong to be able to reject it completely for the homophobia reasons, but homophobia was in him longer than Jack's love and it unfortunately led him to the sad ending...
I believe that in Ennis's case his personal homophobia and society homophobia were intervened into a high wall through which only a occasional rays of Jack's love were allowed to enter. And although he was hungry all his life for that love, he just couldn't overcome himself, and he was a clear reflection of the homophobia incorporated in him since childhood.

[Lobsel-Vith]

Hm... this is an interesting POV.

I also think that Ennis entering the tent left all his fears and homophobia behind. That was one moment on mountains, 1963. when nothin seemed wrong...

I can't remember though the outcome of a conversation here about - what Ennis thought about their relationship in whole, how did he experienced "this thing", what was he thinking about his feelings for Jack and Jack's for him until he finally found the shirts? If not for love, how could he explain subjecting all his life to those few times "fishing trips" a year with Jack? For me it is a mystery.

Still his very rude words in FC : "... for the boys like you!"... meaning - "for the queers like you!" clearly showed that his individual homophobia has not been overcome, over long 20 years.
He had it all the time in himself, and now I am thinking that maybe it was the bigger reason for refusing Jack so many times than a fear of the society condemn itself. Coz his father didn't only left an aboriginal fear in him, but also a disgust for the "queers". His love and need for Jack was too strong to be able to reject it completely for the homophobia reasons, but homophobia was in him longer than Jack's love and it unfortunately led him to the sad ending...
I believe that in Ennis's case his personal homophobia and society homophobia were intervened into a high wall through which only a occasional rays of Jack's love were allowed to enter. And although he was hungry all his life for that love, he just couldn't overcome himself, and he was a clear reflection of the homophobia incorporated in him since childhood.

I agree with you on the fact that when he did enter the tent, he left his homophobia outside... although I also do think that when he left that very tent it came back. When you said about "for the boys like you", I find that Ennis was still in denial about how he felt toward Jack, and maybe toward men in general so, maybe, he only saw Jack as possibly that 'boy' while he himself wasn't; He was still homophobic but couldn't come to terms with it so he blamed Jack for making him feel that way... Maybe he hated himself for loving Jack but at the same time knew that he needed Jack, and that he really did love him.