Topic: It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... - spoilers

[traveller]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Even (and maybe because) different from my own, always give me important impulse for my considerations. Thanks once again.

[vedrana]

I agree with you on the fact that when he did enter the tent, he left his homophobia outside... although I also do think that when he left that very tent it came back. When you said about "for the boys like you", I find that Ennis was still in denial about how he felt toward Jack, and maybe toward men in general so, maybe, he only saw Jack as possibly that 'boy' while he himself wasn't; He was still homophobic but couldn't come to terms with it so he blamed Jack for making him feel that way... Maybe he hated himself for loving Jack but at the same time knew that he needed Jack, and that he really did love him.

Hi LV! Long time no see! 

Hm.. I am not so sure thatthe homophobia came back as he left the tent. Coz immediately after SNIT we saw him - Ennis, teasing Jack and provoking the physical contact outside the tent, in open! I think that his homophobia was always there in a way, but grew to beat the love by the time they had to leave Brokeback. Since then all his life was a painful struggle with himself and the things that were killing him.
I agree that his love for Jack was the feeling that gave him the strength for living and the fear of loving. All that in one man can only be an awful thing to tolerate...

[jedibarrister]

Yes, Toadily, to what degree is a bit puzzling.  Although Ennis may refer here to his poverty, I think his main accusation is that Jack, to some degree, is to blame for his failed marriage and his inability to love anybody else with true depth and passion. It is almost as if Ennis was blaming Jack for his (Ennis) being in love with him (jack)!!!!

I know some saw it was Ennis blaming Jack for their love affair...that somehow Jack made Ennis gay.  But I read it differently.  To me "this" was modified by "nothing" and "nowhere".  Ennis had finally confessed something to Jack that he'd never said before "I'd just quit those jobs".  So what Jack never knew was that Ennis sacrificed his financial welfare, the financial welfare of his family, his standing in the community, his standing to his family, and ultimately his (farce of a) marriage to be available for his time with Jack.  So he literally sacrificed everything, including his happiness, to walk this tightrope.  And now, he thinks he's nothing and nowhere...and he is.  He'd be somewhere if he'd taken the risk that Jack asked him to and he still refuses to see it.  Why does he blame Jack for the sacrifices he willingly made for love?  Because Jack wanted more and didn't see how much he'd given up already.  But Jack wasn't greedy...he just didn't know.

When you said about "for the boys like you", I find that Ennis was still in denial about how he felt toward Jack, and maybe toward men in general so, maybe, he only saw Jack as possibly that 'boy' while he himself wasn't;

Honestly, I don't think he was ever in denial about his feelings for Jack.  I honestly think that Ennis somehow saw his relationship with Jack as "nobody's business but our own".  In other words, until Jack admitted to other men, Ennis had convinced himself that he was "normal" and only had one vice...Jack.  In other words, Ennis was in denial that he wasn't straight.  How many times did he say "I'm no queer", or "I wonder if I was...but I know I ain't", etc.?  He was in complete denial as to his orientation.  Living with Jack would require him to admit that his love for Jack wasn't a twice a week vacation excursion.

[jackster]

Hey there jedi:
Just to say I agree with you on both points. "I'm like this", IMO was Ennis's view of his financial and social failure, the result of his many sacrifices to be with Jack. And boys "like you", meant queers, of which Ennis didn't count himself as one. Though Jack had gotten beyond this, Ennis never did or allowed himself feelings for other men, so he didn't see himself as queer. So by extension Ennis wouldn't think "I'm like this" was being queer, since by his logic he wasn't.

This is not an unusual twist of logic that many "straight" men use, even though they have sex with men, (sometimes anonymously) they don't feel that makes them queer. But, as Ennis would say - Huh?

[tpe]

I know some saw it was Ennis blaming Jack for their love affair...that somehow Jack made Ennis gay.  But I read it differently.  To me "this" was modified by "nothing" and "nowhere".  Ennis had finally confessed something to Jack that he'd never said before "I'd just quit those jobs".  So what Jack never knew was that Ennis sacrificed his financial welfare, the financial welfare of his family, his standing in the community, his standing to his family, and ultimately his (farce of a) marriage to be available for his time with Jack.  So he literally sacrificed everything, including his happiness, to walk this tightrope.  And now, he thinks he's nothing and nowhere...and he is.  He'd be somewhere if he'd taken the risk that Jack asked him to and he still refuses to see it.  Why does he blame Jack for the sacrifices he willingly made for love?  Because Jack wanted more and didn't see how much he'd given up already.  But Jack wasn't greedy...he just didn't know.

Interesting point, jedibarrister.  Do you think that after the Last Confrontation, Jack did know?

I think what could have blinded Jack to all this was his willingness to do the same.  Perhaps (by his logic), he was willing to give up much more, and this blinded him to the realtively large sacrifices that Ennis had already made...

[jedibarrister]

I think once Ennis deflated and dropped in front of Jack, if Jack had any doubts about Ennis' feelings, he'd be dumb.  Ennis' confession also was clear enough that Jack realized it.  Ennis also said, through tears, that he's NOT happy with a "couple of high-altitude Fs, once or twice a year" when he said "I can't stand it anymore".  That's the refrain for Ennis: "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it."  And he's telling Jack he can't stand it anymore.  Yes they torqued things back up and planned on November but who knows what would've happened from there...or if Randall would've let Jack go at all.

[vedrana]

I think once Ennis deflated and dropped in front of Jack, if Jack had any doubts about Ennis' feelings, he'd be dumb.  Ennis' confession also was clear enough that Jack realized it.  Ennis also said, through tears, that he's NOT happy with a "couple of high-altitude Fs, once or twice a year" when he said "I can't stand it anymore".  That's the refrain for Ennis: "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it."  And he's telling Jack he can't stand it anymore.  Yes they torqued things back up and planned on November but who knows what would've happened from there...or if Randall would've let Jack go at all.

Hi there and welcome (a little late for that - I know!) 

I like how you put most of other things and I agree with them - Ennis's words were a clear love statement and Jack understood them as he always did understand Ennis.

But, I don't think that Randall had anything to say when it comes to Jack's love for Ennis and I am sure that Jack would've showed up on November too.

[tpe]

I think once Ennis deflated and dropped in front of Jack, if Jack had any doubts about Ennis' feelings, he'd be dumb.  Ennis' confession also was clear enough that Jack realized it.  Ennis also said, through tears, that he's NOT happy with a "couple of high-altitude Fs, once or twice a year" when he said "I can't stand it anymore".  That's the refrain for Ennis: "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it."  And he's telling Jack he can't stand it anymore.  Yes they torqued things back up and planned on November but who knows what would've happened from there...or if Randall would've let Jack go at all.

But the crux of the matter remained unresolved -- was it enough to make the sweet life something they can achieve.  I think to the very end, Jack didn't know whether Ennis would have turned around regarding this point.  And in some ways, I don't think we do either.  There are hints that seem to tell us that perhaps Ennis would have made the change...  But it is not definitive.

For Jack, this was perhaps the crucial point.  To the very end, I don't think he knew whether or not Ennis would go as far as change, after almost 20 years...

[tpe]

But, I don't think that Randall had anything to say when it comes to Jack's love for Ennis and I am sure that Jack would've showed up on November too.

I feel the same way as far as the love is concerned.  As for the November thing, I have to admit that I am unsure...

[myprivatejack]

I feel the same way as far as the love is concerned.  As for the November thing, I have to admit that I am unsure...

Do you mean that maybe Jack's love was so worn out that he wouldn't appear in November? That things would have changed so much inside him that then it would be Ennis who was praying for "the sweet life"?...

[tpe]

Do you mean that maybe Jack's love was so worn out that he wouldn't appear in November? That things would have changed so much inside him that then it would be Ennis who was praying for "the sweet life"?...

I sometimes think that he would not show to make a statement to Ennis.  I think some of us have discussed it somewhere that perhaps he meant to test or even prod Ennis -- by removing himself, perhaps Jack was trying to push Ennis into some form of action.

[myprivatejack]

Yes,we have talked about this before,more or less directly...Maybe it would be a push on Jack's side to make Ennis put himself "into action"; I also believe that he was already a little fed up with the situation and that,maybe because of this,he was playing his last cards on the game.But I wouldn't say so sure that he wasn't going to appear if that meant a real goodbye to Ennis due to a love's wear out.

[tpe]

Yes,we have talked about this before,more or less directly...Maybe it would be a push on Jack's side to make Ennis put himself "into action"; I also believe that he was already a little fed up with the situation and that,maybe because of this,he was playing his last cards on the game.But I wouldn't say so sure that he wasn't going to appear if that meant a real goodbye to Ennis due to a love's wear out.

Perhaps he was looking into whether he could indeed move one without Ennis.  This does not necessarily mean that Jack has stopped loving Ennis, as we have noted in previous discussions.  Also as some of us have noted before,  there is the possibility that Jack no longer wished to cause Ennis such internal conflict and pain.  To set someone free is sometimes (perversely) the surest expression of love.

 

[myprivatejack]

Perhaps he was looking into whether he could indeed move one without Ennis.  This does not necessarily mean that Jack has stopped loving Ennis, as we have noted in previous discussions.  Also as some of us have noted before,  there is the possibility that Jack no longer wished to cause Ennis such internal conflict and pain.  To set someone free is sometimes (perversely) the surest expression of love.

As Sting's song says:-"If you love somebody,let them free"...Yes,I have understood what you meant,and I guess how great would be Jack's internal struggle.But I'm not so sure still that he wouldn't appear on November,even if it had been to give the last chance to Ennis,or,who knows?,to say goodbye for a while.

[tpe]

As Sting's song says:-"If you love somebody,let them free"...Yes,I have understood what you meant,and I guess how great would be Jack's internal struggle.But I'm not so sure still that he wouldn't appear on November,even if it had been to give the last chance to Ennis,or,who knows?,to say goodbye for a while.

Precisely, I think we don't see this struggle as much as we see Ennis's internal conflict.  It would not be true to form to see Jack brood, I guess -- although we can read a lot in his parting look at the end of the Last Confrontation...

As for November, yes, we really don't know -- ultimately -- what he would do.  It could go either way, even though I somehow feel that he wouldn't.  Does this reflect a degree of pessimism on my part?

[myprivatejack]

Precisely, I think we don't see this struggle as much as we see Ennis's internal conflict.  It would not be true to form to see Jack brood, I guess -- although we can read a lot in his parting look at the end of the Last Confrontation...

As for November, yes, we really don't know -- ultimately -- what he would do.  It could go either way, even though I somehow feel that he wouldn't.  Does this reflect a degree of pessimism on my part?

No,it doesn't; in any case,it'd reflect some realism. Sometimes,I have thought if maybe both of them were living more from the beautiful memories of the time in BBM than from the reality of their relationship and what they could get from it...Maybe this is also too pessimist,but also kind of realist,no?.

[tpe]

No,it doesn't; in any case,it'd reflect some realism. Sometimes,I have thought if maybe both of them were living more from the beautiful memories of the time in BBM than from the reality of their relationship and what they could get from it...Maybe this is also too pessimist,but also kind of realist,no?.

I think they pretty much survived from the store of memories from Brokeback.  The sceenplay seems to make this explicit when (in the scene inside jack's closet) it comments on the shirts as being all that remains of the power and magic of their time in the Mountain.

[myprivatejack]

I think they pretty much survived from the store of memories from Brokeback.  The sceenplay seems to make this explicit when (in the scene inside jack's closet) it comments on the shirts as being all that remains of the power and magic of their time in the Mountain.

Exactly.I think they were living like in a dream; that one of their memories from BBM.These were stronger even than their reality and sometimes they mixed them in their minds and souls.

[vedrana]

Exactly.I think they were living like in a dream; that one of their memories from BBM.These were stronger even than their reality and sometimes they mixed them in their minds and souls.

This is so sad, don't you think?  :\'( But most probably the truth!  :\'(

[myprivatejack]

This is so sad, don't you think?  :\'( But most probably the truth!  :\'(

Yes,probably...Sometimes we live reality just like we were living in our memories a fact that happenned many years ago.The relationship or whatever this fact can be,is living in our minds somewhat overvalued and we tend to pass it to our daily life of nowadays.Sad,of course...

[vedrana]

Yes,probably...Sometimes we live reality just like we were living in our memories a fact that happenned many years ago.The relationship or whatever this fact can be,is living in our minds somewhat overvalued and we tend to pass it to our daily life of nowadays.Sad,of course...

I tend to think that I am also living in the surreal world of BBM... like Jack and Ennis had in their RL. BBM became a part of me in the most profound way. I live it and breathe it every day...

OK, I am OT now, but it stroked me when I realized how true it is...

[tpe]

Exactly.I think they were living like in a dream; that one of their memories from BBM.These were stronger even than their reality and sometimes they mixed them in their minds and souls.

A long dream, certainly!  And a long awakening it was -- a long awakening into night.

This harks back to the thread where we discuss the Buddhist flavor we sense in the movie.  And dreams and dreaming is at the heart of this...

In a way, the Last Confrontation and Ennis's final admission of inadequacy can be taken as a rude form of awakening...  His part admission of the power of Jack and BBM over him can be taken as some form of coming to terms...

[tpe]

I tend to think that I am also living in the surreal world of BBM... like Jack and Ennis had in their RL. BBM became a part of me in the most profound way. I live it and breathe it every day...

OK, I am OT now, but it stroked me when I realized how true it is...

A bit OT, but what you say here is so TRUE...

[myprivatejack]

I tend to think that I am also living in the surreal world of BBM... like Jack and Ennis had in their RL. BBM became a part of me in the most profound way. I live it and breathe it every day...

OK, I am OT now, but it stroked me when I realized how true it is...

Yes,you're a little OT ( ^^) ) but you're right.And both Ennis and Jack wanted to live in a kind of surreal,or idyllic world,that was theirs,the world of BBM.

[myprivatejack]

A long dream, certainly!  And a long awakening it was -- a long awakening into night.

This harks back to the thread where we discuss the Buddhist flavor we sense in the movie.  And dreams and dreaming is at the heart of this...

In a way, the Last Confrontation and Ennis's final admission of inadequacy can be taken as a rude form of awakening...  His part admission of the power of Jack and BBM over him can be taken as some form of coming to terms...

Exactly¡ But maybe wasn't Jack having several sudden awakenings of this dream they have forged?.I mean,every time he received a "no" from Ennis,was like a hard awakening or a dream turned into a nightmare.Maybe,however,the LC was the rudest awakening they must have; but also-or because of this...-to be face to face with reality and with the need of finding a solution for a "charm" that was lasting too much and that too often crashed with the hardness of their real life.

[so_y2000]

I tend to think that I am also living in the surreal world of BBM... like Jack and Ennis had in their RL. BBM became a part of me in the most profound way. I live it and breathe it every day...

OK, I am OT now, but it stroked me when I realized how true it is...

It's true, that happens when we live an experience that changes us. Jack and Ennis not only lived remembering that first time they knew in brokeback, but also recalling or trying to reenact that passion on their everyday life without each other, failing miserably. I believe Jack would have gone in November, no doubt, seeing how he embraced Ennis after he said "I wish" knowing after all that no matter the number of rejections from Ennis part, that phrase "I can't stand this anymore jack" demonstrates Ennis own suffering and struggles. It's because of you Jack that I'm like this... In love... and incapable of letting my heart open to anyone in the world but you.  :\'(

[lancecowboy]

Exactly¡ But maybe wasn't Jack having several sudden awakenings of this dream they have forged?.I mean,every time he received a "no" from Ennis,was like a hard awakening or a dream turned into a nightmare.Maybe,however,the LC was the rudest awakening they must have; but also-or because of this...-to be face to face with reality and with the need of finding a solution for a "charm" that was lasting too much and that too often crashed with the hardness of their real life.

I think Jack is, as you said, experienced when it comes to the several occurances of this rude awakening of his dream turned into a nightmare. As it is said in the short story, after Jack proposed the cow and calf operation in Motel Siesta, "you owe me at least a weekend after shooting me down in flames." I am paraphrasing a bit since I don't have the short story with me at the moment. Even in the movie, without the words, Jack was heartbroken by the river, not only for the dream that was shattered by Ennis' refusal, but also for the pain that he felt, looking at Ennis as he retold the trauma of his nine-year-old self witnessing a hate crime.

I think Jack is almost complacent, accustomed to being rejected by the time of the final confrontation. He felt angry at the short leash and was yanking at it. To his surprise, Ennis felt apart. We never heard nothing more after "It's because of you that I am like this." But I can just imagine Jack saying the same thing, and that silently, in his heart, he probably said to himself, while hugging the collapsed Ennis, that, "Ain't that the truth. It is because of YOU that I am like this." "Dame you, Ennis."

As it was said, in the short story, nothing changed, nothing settled. Let be. Let be.

The two lived on the surreal memories of that summer on Brokeback Mountain; they made each other that way.

Jack could never quit Ennis; Ennis loved no other but Jack.

Whether they knew it or admit it or not, they are stuck with each other.

[tpe]

Exactly¡ But maybe wasn't Jack having several sudden awakenings of this dream they have forged?.I mean,every time he received a "no" from Ennis,was like a hard awakening or a dream turned into a nightmare.Maybe,however,the LC was the rudest awakening they must have; but also-or because of this...-to be face to face with reality and with the need of finding a solution for a "charm" that was lasting too much and that too often crashed with the hardness of their real life.

Well, one can think of all pain and passion as illusion.  And I suspwect that at the very end of their relationship, he did sort of reach a kind of satori or awakening.  As to the earlier moments, I am not sure.  Perhaps he saw through the screen of human frailty and recognize the impermanence of it all.  But to be sure, I think he definitely was "there" at the very end.

[tpe]

It's true, that happens when we live an experience that changes us. Jack and Ennis not only lived remembering that first time they knew in brokeback, but also recalling or trying to reenact that passion on their everyday life without each other, failing miserably. I believe Jack would have gone in November, no doubt, seeing how he embraced Ennis after he said "I wish" knowing after all that no matter the number of rejections from Ennis part, that phrase "I can't stand this anymore jack" demonstrates Ennis own suffering and struggles. It's because of you Jack that I'm like this... In love... and incapable of letting my heart open to anyone in the world but you.  :\'(

Welcome so_y2000 ! 

And it is also true that so much of their hopes and expectations find their root in the initial experience that changed them both.  It is a testament to the power of that experience that it sustained them for more than 20 years...

[lancecowboy]

Well, one can think of all pain and passion as illusion.  And I suspwect that at the very end of their relationship, he did sort of reach a kind of satori or awakening.  As to the earlier moments, I am not sure.  Perhaps he saw through the screen of human frailty and recognize the impermanence of it all.  But to be sure, I think he definitely was "there" at the very end.

Hmm... Thomas, you are dragging what I wrote about the Buddhist concept of illusions in the "so many lies..." thread into this discussion.

I don't think the idea applies in this case, because, if you recall, from the short story, at the end of the final confrontation, nothing was settled, and nothing changed. Jack simply let be. It's not satori, and certainly not awakening to enlightening realization that all pleasure and pain, all passion and hatred, are but illusions that fade with the years like leaves and flowers with the seasons.

I think your idea of Jack achieving satori is a bit far fetched. Just my two cents worth.

If anything, Jack was in pain as he watched Ennis driving off, not unlike the end of the summer, as he drove off, watching Ennis diminishing in the rear view mirror.

He was gone for four years after that summer. He was gone forever after that final confrontation.