Topic: was ennis gay ?

[vedrana]

And I think his sense of internal conflict goes beyond sexuality.  There is something universal about it that touches us and reminds us of how hard it is to be human.

Beautifully said tpe!

[tpe]

Thanks loreen. 

After all, sexuality is a big part of the human experience.  It's a pity that many people even today don't want to recognize this -- a significant part of who they really are.

[vedrana]

Thanks loreen. 

After all, sexuality is a big part of the human experience.  It's a pity that many people even today don't want to recognize this -- a significant part of who they really are.

 

Keep on  talking please...
________________________________

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Still, not so sure about it. People live in celibacy and they're doing fine... I hope so 

[tpe]

Keep on  talking please...
________________________________

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Still, not so sure about it. People live in celibacy and they're doing fine... I hope so 

Well, celebacy does not erase the reality of sexuality.  Even eunuchs have sexual feelings.

[vedrana]

Well, celebacy does not erase the reality of sexuality.  Even eunuchs have sexual feelings.

  I am dumb! 

... about eunuchs I mean...

[jedibarrister]

I know I'm super late to this discussion, but why was there any doubt about Ennis' sexuality?  Because of Alma and Cassie?  In the book, he says something about liking it "fine" with women but that with Jack it was something else entirely.  For me, it kinda closed the book on the question: gay but in denial and trying to be "manly" for the other man in his bed.  But I've read a lot of essays that seem to want Ennis to be bi and I'm not sure why that's the case....why is Ennis better/worse/more understandable/less tragic/whatever if he was bi and not gay?  Or am I missing the issue entirely?

[lancecowboy]

I know I'm super late to this discussion, but why was there any doubt about Ennis' sexuality?  Because of Alma and Cassie?  In the book, he says something about liking it "fine" with women but that with Jack it was something else entirely.  For me, it kinda closed the book on the question: gay but in denial and trying to be "manly" for the other man in his bed.  But I've read a lot of essays that seem to want Ennis to be bi and I'm not sure why that's the case....why is Ennis better/worse/more understandable/less tragic/whatever if he was bi and not gay?  Or am I missing the issue entirely?

Why is there any doubt that Ennis is bi? In the role of the devil's advocate, pinning a generic label on an individual is difficult at the best of time. It says more about the person doing the pinning than the person being pinned.

Is gay and straight measured in absolute terms, or in a spectrum from 0 to 100 as some people believe? Where would Ennis fall on the spectrum, if that was the case?

The point, in my opinion, is that the label is meaningless to the essence of the story. Ennis can be asexual for all that matters, and still make the story as poignant and tragic as ever. Forget about the marriage to Alma, if Ennis never married, but was still afraid to spend eternity with Jack, it would still be Brokeback Mountain. Indeed, even if Ennis were gay, and was married to Alan, but for whatever reason was afraid to marry Jack, it would still be Brokeback Mountain.

Placing the emphasis on the gayness of Ennis detracts from the tragedy of his fears to love and be loved. IMO.

Having said that, let me reiterate that as Heath said, Brokeback Mountain is about the homophobic gay man, Ennis, finding and losing his soul mate.

[jedibarrister]

I agree with Heath.  I never saw him as bi...just trapped.

[atalley]

Loreen...In Biblical days, the Kings would have many wives & concubines.  They would castrate young men (Daniel being one) who would then watch after their harems.  That way, they knew they wouldn't be having sex w/ these women.  I'm studying the Book of Daniel & feel so sorry for him, but he never once got angry at God.

[lancecowboy]

Well, celebacy does not erase the reality of sexuality.  Even eunuchs have sexual feelings.

I am of the opinion, that sexuality and love are not equivalent. It is easy to confuse sexual feelings with love, in today's media promoted climate of hypersexuality. However, Brokeback Mountain is not about sex; the movie is about love. The sexuality is merely a part of the backdrop, like the mountain. It, they, form the important setting, but are not the essence of the message, the theme of love. As discussed in the thread, "Sex, friendship and love" sex is merely a small part of the relationship between Ennis and Jack. It is certainly an important part, but not sufficient on its own. Focusing on the sexuality is to miss the point of love, and the friendship.

[atalley]

I am of the opinion, that sexuality and love are not equivalent. It is easy to confuse sexual feelings with love, in today's media promoted climate of hypersexuality. However, Brokeback Mountain is not about sex; the movie is about love. The sexuality is merely a part of the backdrop, like the mountain. It, they, form the important setting, but are not the essence of the message, the theme of love. As discussed in the thread, "Sex, friendship and love" sex is merely a small part of the relationship between Ennis and Jack. It is certainly an important part, but not sufficient on its own. Focusing on the sexuality is to miss the point of love, and the friendship.

I'm following you around tonight, Andrew.  This is also so true.

[tpe]

I am dumb! 

... about eunuchs I mean...

   Well, it's not from expereince that I said that!

 

[tpe]

I know I'm super late to this discussion, but why was there any doubt about Ennis' sexuality?  Because of Alma and Cassie?  In the book, he says something about liking it "fine" with women but that with Jack it was something else entirely.  For me, it kinda closed the book on the question: gay but in denial and trying to be "manly" for the other man in his bed.  But I've read a lot of essays that seem to want Ennis to be bi and I'm not sure why that's the case....why is Ennis better/worse/more understandable/less tragic/whatever if he was bi and not gay?  Or am I missing the issue entirely?

Well, the terminology "gay" appears to have different meanings/levels of significance to people, and I think that some of the discussion is rooted on our own individual notions of what it means to be gay.

But setting that aside, some people argue that Ennis never had any other relationship with a man.  Personally, I don't think this really proves anything.   And as in real life, we know that relationships with women and men doesn't necessarily prove bisexuality, especially in a repressed age...

I pretty much agree with your opinion, but it's clear that others see things differently.

[lancecowboy]

Well, the terminology "gay" appears to have different meanings/levels of significance to people, and I think that some of the discussion is rooted on our own individual notions of what it means to be gay.

But setting that aside, some people argue that Ennis never had any other relationship with a man.  Personally, I don't think this really proves anything.   And as in real life, we know that relationships with women and men doesn't necessarily prove bisexuality, especially in a repressed age...

I pretty much agree with your opinion, but it's clear that others see things differently.

The same can be said, relationships with men doesn't necessarily prove homosexuality. Indeed, if a label can be assigned based on a single occurrence, all manners of paradoxes arise. It is the basis of problems associated with  the effort of Russell and Whitehead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica It is the basis of Godel's Theorm. There are fundamental limitations to our language and logic. Membership in a class is a classic example of this limitation. Those who have the strongest faith in logic are the very ones who have trouble accepting its limitation. The philosophical implication of Godel's Theorm is clear, and yet scientists and mathematicians often ignore it nonetheless. They can do that because fuzzy logic is not always applicable in the physical sciences. Labels are basic elements in fuzzy logic, and it can be said that Ennis is a little gay, a little bi, a little asexual, or even a little straight. He lies outside of the strictly binary world of straight-gay, even the strictly base-3 world of straight-bi-gay.

The love that is Ennis is beyond atomization, beyond definition. It simply is.

[tpe]

The same can be said, relationships with men doesn't necessarily prove homosexuality. Indeed, if a label can be assigned based on a single occurrence, all manners of paradoxes arise. It is the basis of problems associated with  the effort of Russell and Whitehead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica It is the basis of Godel's Theorm. There are fundamental limitations to our language and logic. Membership in a class is a classic example of this limitation. Those who have the strongest faith in logic are the very ones who have trouble accepting its limitation. The philosophical implication of Godel's Theorm is clear, and yet scientists and mathematicians often ignore it nonetheless. They can do that because fuzzy logic is not always applicable in the physical sciences. Labels are basic elements in fuzzy logic, and it can be said that Ennis is a little gay, a little bi, a little asexual, or even a little straight. He lies outside of the strictly binary world of straight-gay, even the strictly base-3 world of straight-bi-gay.

The love that is Ennis is beyond atomization, beyond definition. It simply is.

That is true.  But loving a man physically as well as emotionally usually does.  This dual aspect is of course missing in all of Ennis's relationships with women. 

Still, one can't exactly know for sure...  This is just the way I look at it.

   

[lancecowboy]

That is true.  But loving a man physically as well as emotionally usually does.  This dual aspect is of course missing in all of Ennis's relationships with women. 

Still, one can't exactly know for sure...  This is just the way I look at it.
   

We don't know that the emotional AND physical aspect of the relationship is missing in his relationship with women. All we know is that those aspects in his relationship with Jack dominates his life. The latter is a relative measure. The former, as you stated it, is an absolute measure. My point exactly regarding the fuzzy aspect of labels.

We simply don't know if Ennis was a zero or a 50 or a 100. All we know FOR SURE is that there is only one Jack in his life.

[athena0204]

I am of the opinion, that sexuality and love are not equivalent. It is easy to confuse sexual feelings with love, in today's media promoted climate of hypersexuality. However, Brokeback Mountain is not about sex; the movie is about love. The sexuality is merely a part of the backdrop, like the mountain. It, they, form the important setting, but are not the essence of the message, the theme of love. As discussed in the thread, "Sex, friendship and love" sex is merely a small part of the relationship between Ennis and Jack. It is certainly an important part, but not sufficient on its own. Focusing on the sexuality is to miss the point of love, and the friendship.

Yes, I agree. It's all about love: pure, deep, true love. Ennis and Jack are soulmates who loved each other completely, and having sex with each other was just one of the ways they expressed their true love. Their sexuality for each other was merely an expression and extension of that love, making love with each other was a meaningful and sacred experience that strengthened their already deep bond. That is what matters and those who focus on sexuality are missing the entire point of the story.

[lancecowboy]

Yes, I agree. It's all about love: pure, deep, true love. Ennis and Jack are soulmates who loved each other completely, and having sex with each other was just one of the ways they expressed their true love. Their sexuality for each other was merely an expression and extension of that love, making love with each other was a meaningful and sacred experience that strengthened their already deep bond. That is what matters and those who focus on sexuality are missing the entire point of the story.

Glad to hear another voice on this topic. Welcome to the discussions, athena. 

[tpe]

We don't know that the emotional AND physical aspect of the relationship is missing in his relationship with women. All we know is that those aspects in his relationship with Jack dominates his life. The latter is a relative measure. The former, as you stated it, is an absolute measure. My point exactly regarding the fuzzy aspect of labels.

We simply don't know if Ennis was a zero or a 50 or a 100. All we know FOR SURE is that there is only one Jack in his life.

Well, my emphasizing the word "usually" implies that such as measure is never abolute. 

But we can speak of probabilities, even when there is no absolute certainty. 

[lancecowboy]

Well, my emphasizing the word "usually" implies that such as measure is never abolute. 

But we can speak of probabilities, even when there is no absolute certainty. 

Fuzzy labels are not simple probabilities. They are in fact simultaneous labels. A glass can be BOTH half full AND half empty. A temperature can be BOTH cool and lukewarm. Ennis can be BOTH gay and bi and asexual or whatever.

The irony of precision in labeling is that the error is greater when the non-fuzzy label is made more precise. But we digress...Fuzzy logic is an interesting topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic

[tpe]

Fuzzy labels are not simple probabilities. They are in fact simultaneous labels. A glass can be BOTH half full AND half empty. A temperature can be BOTH cool and lukewarm. Ennis can be BOTH gay and bi and asexual or whatever.

The irony of precision in labeling is that the error is greater when the non-fuzzy label is made more precise. But we digress...Fuzzy logic is an interesting topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic

I am not sure how and why the subject of labels came up here one again...  But let me quote myself:

That is true.  But loving a man physically as well as emotionally usually does [i.e., indicate homosexuality].  This dual aspect is of course missing in all of Ennis's relationships with women.

There is nothing fuzzy about this -- whether or not you believe this applies to Ennis.

[lancecowboy]

I am not sure how and why the subject of labels came up here one again...  But let me quote myself:

There is nothing fuzzy about this -- whether or not you believe this applies to Ennis.

I think we can agree to disagree.

To me, Ennis in his honeymoon, playing with Alma in the snow, have SOME emotional connection. Who is to say he does not have SOME sexual connection with her, too? Just because Jack is his soul mate, it does not necessarily mean he does NOT have emotional and sexual connections with women. The two are not exclusive...the very basis of fuzzy labels...they do not follow Artistolean logic.

"Ennis is not gay." is to force Ennis into the definition of a label.

[athena0204]

I think we can agree to disagree.

To me, Ennis in his honeymoon, playing with Alma in the snow, have SOME emotional connection. Who is to say he does not have SOME sexual connection with her, too? Just because Jack is his soul mate, it does not necessarily mean he does NOT have emotional and sexual connections with women. The two are not exclusive...the very basis of fuzzy labels...they do not follow Artistolean logic.

"Ennis is not gay." is to force Ennis into the definition of a label.

Hmm, I always thought of the Ennis and Alma playing in the snow scene as more of a brother/sister kind of thing than of someone he actually has romantic feelings for. I do believe that Ennis was attracted to men (just like Jack) and had known it long before he met Jack. It was because of his father's and society's ingrained fear and homophobia that Ennis was afraid of those feelings, and hid them and tried to forget about them. I have a feeling that he had struggled with such feelings. Had Ennis never met Jack, it's true he would have never acted on his feelings, and therefore never had a romantic relationship with a man. He would have just lived the life that was expected of him (and missed out on true love of course), and probably would have grown old with Alma instead of divorcing her. But it doesn't mean that those feelings weren't inside Ennis somewhere. I also believe that it was only his soulmate, Jack, who could bring those feelings and allow Ennis to act on his repressed homosexuality, otherwise he never would have, but like I said, that doesn't change or take away Ennis's feelings, they would have just been stowed away and repressed, just like before he'd met Jack. Of course, I despise labels, and I don't like tacking labels on people, that's why I never think of Brokeback Mountain as a "gay" movie, I think of it as a story about true love between two soulmates. I'm not trying to label neither Ennis nor Jack, and their whole story is about their real, true, eternal love for each other and that is what must be focused on. I'm just saying that I do believe that Ennis had feelings for men, and that it had been a part of Ennis before he'd met Jack, he would have never acted on it though. Also, the way Ennis loved was completely and wholly, and once he's found his soulmate, that's whom he's in love with. (Same with Jack, the other men in his life were only a distraction and a way of numbing his pain because he couldn't be with Ennis) Ennis's relationship with Alma is seen by him as a duty, as what society expects of him, and therefore what he must comply with, because he feels he has no other choice in these circumstances. Later Cassie comes along when he doesn't even want a relationship, she basically drags him into it, and it makes a good cover for him so he goes along with it. And remember, Ennis wasn't very sexual, it was only Jack who felt comfortable with sexually, because that sex was an expression of his very deep feelings and true love for Jack. I also believe Jack is the only one in the world whom Ennis could have such strong sexual feelings for as well. Anyway when you look at the picture, it's clear that Ennis was for Jack and Jack was for Ennis and labels are unnecessary and meaningless.

[lancecowboy]

Hmm, I always thought of the Ennis and Alma playing in the snow scene as more of a brother/sister kind of thing than of someone he actually has romantic feelings for. I do believe that Ennis was attracted to men (just like Jack) and had known it long before he met Jack.

I don't agree but that's okay. Art is open to interpretation. Ennis is a complex character. He had relationships with Alma and Cassie. Jack seems to be more gay of the two. Even his relationship with Loreen is not so certain...the dance, with the song, and the look on his face, so clear that he was yearning for Ennis, or a man. His relationships with other men, showed that he is certainly more gay than Ennis. I don't think Ennis was attracted to men BEFORE Jack. He was not attracted to other men, even AFTER Jack. Both the movie and the shortstory stipulates that Ennis was wringing it out only thinking of Jack. One can argue that Ennis repressed his attraction to other men and if there was no Jack, he would be fooling around with other men. One can argue that way, but I don't think it's a valid argument. I go by what the movie and story say and Ennis was only attracted to Jack. He had enough of a relationship with Alma to raise two children, he had enough of a relationship with Cassie to have her falling in love with him. I doubt brother/sister connections would do that.

It was because of his father's and society's ingrained fear and homophobia that Ennis was afraid of those feelings, and hid them and tried to forget about them. I have a feeling that he had struggled with such feelings. Had Ennis never met Jack, it's true he would have never acted on his feelings, and therefore never had a romantic relationship with a man. He would have just lived the life that was expected of him (and missed out on true love of course), and probably would have grown old with Alma instead of divorcing her. But it doesn't mean that those feelings weren't inside Ennis somewhere.

This sounds like the tree that falls in the middle of the forest with no one around, did it make a sound? Or better yet, the Schrodinger Cat, is it alive or dead? I am not trying to be pedantic. We are asking some fundamental questions that goes to the core of metaphysics and philosophy. If Ennis never met the man, the ONLY man who made him feel the way he did, would he be gay? If a gay man never falls in love with another man, never engage in emotional or sexual connections with another man, never feel sexual attraction towards another man, is he gay?

These are the problems with labels. They are incomplete, inconsistent, and in some cases, irrelevant. In my opinion.

I also believe that it was only his soulmate, Jack, who could bring those feelings and allow Ennis to act on his repressed homosexuality, otherwise he never would have, but like I said, that doesn't change or take away Ennis's feelings, they would have just been stowed away and repressed, just like before he'd met Jack. Of course, I despise labels, and I don't like tacking labels on people, that's why I never think of Brokeback Mountain as a "gay" movie, I think of it as a story about true love between two soulmates.

I agree, my point exactly. It is not about gay, it is about love. Jack and Ennis were two souls that fit each other, that get each other, like no other souls. It matters not if their gender were the same, or different; it matters not if their races were the same or different. It was their love that could not be spoken in the open.

I'm not trying to label neither Ennis nor Jack, and their whole story is about their real, true, eternal love for each other and that is what must be focused on. I'm just saying that I do believe that Ennis had feelings for men, and that it had been a part of Ennis before he'd met Jack, he would have never acted on it though.

We are back to Ennis loving only one man, not men. He is not so much homosexual as Jacksexual.

Also, the way Ennis loved was completely and wholly, and once he's found his soulmate, that's whom he's in love with. (Same with Jack, the other men in his life were only a distraction and a way of numbing his pain because he couldn't be with Ennis)

Agreed. It is the one and constant love of Ennis, the long abiding patiently waiting unwavering love of Jack, that makes Brokeback Mountain special. It is not SNIT or FNIT or any of the sex scenes that makes Brokeback Mountain a great work of art.

Ennis's relationship with Alma is seen by him as a duty, as what society expects of him, and therefore what he must comply with, because he feels he has no other choice in these circumstances.

I don't agree. I think without Jack, Ennis would have been happy with Alma, in his own ways. He was happy with beans, not looking for meat or soup or whatever. I agree it would not be the same love that he had with Jack, but how many couples had the love between Ennis and Jack? Straight or otherwise.

Later Cassie comes along when he doesn't even want a relationship, she basically drags him into it, and it makes a good cover for him so he goes along with it. And remember, Ennis wasn't very sexual, it was only Jack who felt comfortable with sexually, because that sex was an expression of his very deep feelings and true love for Jack. I also believe Jack is the only one in the world whom Ennis could have such strong sexual feelings for as well.

Cassie may have dragged Ennis onto the dance floor but he enjoyed her attention, and being with her. By the time Cassie came along, Jack had been in his life for many many years. Cassie never had a chance, even if she were a man. Ennis was hooked on to Jack, the one and only.

Anyway when you look at the picture, it's clear that Ennis was for Jack and Jack was for Ennis and labels are unnecessary and meaningless.

Agreed. 100%. Labels are unnecessary and irrelevant in this case. Ennis is Ennis. That's all there is to it. In my opinion.

[athena0204]

I still believe that Ennis did have attractions/feelings for men before he met Jack, or he wouldn't have had that ability to love Jack in the way he did. If someone is heterosexual, but they never actually have a romantic relationship with anyone in this life, it doesn't mean they don't have the potential to do so and it doesn't mean they aren't attracted/have feelings for certain people of that gender. When Ennis met Jack, he had the potential to fall in love with him, and in fact couldn't have fallen in love with him had he not had that potential. But the story is about two souls loving each other, so that's what matters. I really disagree that Ennis would have truly been happy with Alma had he never met Jack. No one except for Jack could bring out the real Ennis Del Mar. I think often people make the mistake of thinking Ennis was simple, but the truth is that he is very complex in so many ways.  And only Jack Twist got to really know him. Everyone else couldn't figure him out. The saying that still run waters run deep rings very true for Ennis. There's far more than what you see with Ennis. Just because he's not talking, it doesn't mean he isn't thinking and feeling. Ennis would never be able to have the deep, powerful, and special bond and connection he had with Jack with Alma, or anything close to it. And it's pretty obvious that his relationship with Cassie is extremely reluctant at first, and eventually became one of convenience as it provided a decent cover for a paranoid and fearful Ennis living alone in a place like Riverton after a divorce. I honestly don't believe that had there been no Jack, and had Ennis already divorced Alma, that Cassie would have had a chance either. Ennis would have probably just spent the rest of his life alone after his divorce in that situation. But of course I do think that Ennis wouldn't have divorced Alma had he never met Jack. He would have completely lived the life that was expected of him, and nothing more, nothing less. He would have endured it and kept his innermost thoughts and feelings hidden behind his facade. Ennis was someone who knew the rules and complied (unless he was with Jack). It's clear that Ennis's fears about homosexuality run deep because of the way he was raised by his father, by what his father showed him at such a young and tender age, and because of the society in which he lived. I think all those factors left the young man Ennis confused and deeply afraid in coming to terms with his real self. Ennis must have had some feelings, or else he wouldn't have become so attached to Jack as he did that summer. I understand what you are saying about the fact that Ennis wouldn't be going out with men had he never met Jack, that's true. It's true that Ennis would have never acted on those feelings had he never met Jack, but I do strongly believe there was something already there, and young Ennis didn't really know how to deal with it so he kept it hidden and repressed. I believe the reason Ennis wasn't attracted to other men after he met Jack, is because he had found his true love, and for Ennis and the way he loved, that meant not being attracted to anyone who wasn't Jack. It is normal for a person who finds true love, who has found their soulmate, to no longer find anyone else attractive because of their strong feelings for that special person. As for what Jack did, Jack the extrovert distracted himself and dealt with his pain in his way by having meaningless relationships with other men, Ennis, the introvert, dealt with his pain in his own way, quietly, and inwardly. The differences in how they dealt reflects the differences in their personalities. Again, the whole story is about true love, not about being "gay" or being "straight", whatever that's supposed to mean anyways. But what I'm saying is that just the way Ennis is, and the way he's afraid of his feelings in the very beginning the first summer on Brokeback Mountain, is revealing that this is a person who had been struggling on the inside for a while, knowing that he had feelings which conflicted with what the society he lived in expected from him. Had he never met Jack, all of that would have been hidden and repressed, and Ennis would have just been dutiful husband to Alma all his life, pushing any feelings back, neither happy nor sad, simply accepting what this life had handed him stoically, but his destined meeting and finding his soulmate, Jack, changed his life forever and in the end, makes him realize what his true feelings have been all along. But the bottom line is that it is a love story, and while we disagree on some points, I think we can all agree that it's about two souls who love each other deeply, truly, purely, and completely, and the tragedy is that they couldn't have the life they deserved together because of the circumstances they were in.

[tpe]

I think we can agree to disagree.

To me, Ennis in his honeymoon, playing with Alma in the snow, have SOME emotional connection. Who is to say he does not have SOME sexual connection with her, too? Just because Jack is his soul mate, it does not necessarily mean he does NOT have emotional and sexual connections with women. The two are not exclusive...the very basis of fuzzy labels...they do not follow Artistolean logic.

"Ennis is not gay." is to force Ennis into the definition of a label.

I think of course of a lasting connection.  Everything has its "honeymoon", but time is the true test, as well as tribulations.

For me, "gay" is just a label as "homosexual".  As I have said previously, say "homosexual" to any person in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and they would immediately think of mental illness.  That was why the term "gay" was introduced almost a hunderd years ago: to find a terminology that does not stigmatize the love of man for man as something akin to insanity.  It is interesting to note how people now think "homosexuality" is the "proper" term.

What does this prove?  It proves that "labels" are colored by how people of a specific age or a specific point of view want to interpret them. 

[lancecowboy]

I think of course of a lasting connection.  Everything has its "honeymoon", but time is the true test, as well as tribulations.

For me, "gay" is just a label as "homosexual".  As I have said previously, say "homosexual" to any person in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and they would immediately think of mental illness.  That was why the term "gay" was introduced almost a hunderd years ago: to find a terminology that does not stigmatize the love of man for man as something akin to insanity.  It is interesting to note how people now think "homosexuality" is the "proper" term.

What does this prove?  It proves that "labels" are colored by how people of a specific age or a specific point of view want to interpret them. 

I agree that labels color people's perception of themselves and the world around them, sometimes with devastating consequences. It is especially true with "I ain't queer." It is commendable for the Queer Nation to take back the meaning of the word, and turn a hateful weapon into a source of pride. However, by definition, this commendable process says a lot about the meaninglessness of labels. We are who we say we are, not what labels say we are. That is my point.

I don't profess to know the history of the words that describe men-men sex. There was also the discussion, about gay, homosexual, etc. Those words originally described only sexual relations, not love. We have extended the meaning to include loving relations, and that is the other point. Gay love evolved over the ages not because it did or did not exist back then, but because society did not perceive it, did not allow it, did not acknowledge it. Greek literature has male lovers yet they are often not called homosexuals but friends. Why? Because the labels don't fit the phenomenon. The phenomenon transcends the label. To force a square peg through a round hole is an exercise in futility, in my opinion.

On to a different topic, "Everything has its honeymoon." is an interesting assertion. It applies to Ennis and Jack as well.

We have discussed in other threads the evolution of their relationship, from the reunion to the days sitting around the fire, by the river, drinking and talking. Does that mean Ennis and Jack are falling out of love?

We also discussed the importance of friendship, of doing things together, sharing the same interests, 'em days on Brokeback Mountain when the two shared goals, overcame obstacles, together. Alma and Ennis grew apart because they shared different goals: she wanted more material comfort, he just wanted Jack (or to make it gender neutral Jane). Their marriage broke apart for many reasons, not just because Ennis was gay.

Ennis, before meeting Jack, was a ranch hand with indeterminate sexual preference. Once living life together with Jack on the mountain for a couple months, Ennis was gay. Shrodinger's cat is alive.

EnnisJack was a gay couple. Ennis by himself, is only half of a whole; gay or straight is irrelevant. Jack is gay because that's what he brings to the relationship, among other things. Jack is the man that opened the box and let out Ennis' cat.

[lancecowboy]

I still believe that Ennis did have attractions/feelings for men before he met Jack, or he wouldn't have had that ability to love Jack in the way he did. If someone is heterosexual, but they never actually have a romantic relationship with anyone in this life, it doesn't mean they don't have the potential to do so and it doesn't mean they aren't attracted/have feelings for certain people of that gender. When Ennis met Jack, he had the potential to fall in love with him, and in fact couldn't have fallen in love with him had he not had that potential. But the story is about two souls loving each other, so that's what matters.

I think we under estimate the power of Jack on Ennis when we say Ennis would fall in love with another man if Jack never showed. My point is that Ennis fell for Jack and Jack alone precise because of the special connection between the two, and no other would fit like two shirts together. Ennis had the potential, only for Jack. Ennis is Jacksexual, not homosexual.

I really disagree that Ennis would have truly been happy with Alma had he never met Jack. No one except for Jack could bring out the real Ennis Del Mar. I think often people make the mistake of thinking Ennis was simple, but the truth is that he is very complex in so many ways.  And only Jack Twist got to really know him. Everyone else couldn't figure him out. The saying that still run waters run deep rings very true for Ennis. There's far more than what you see with Ennis. Just because he's not talking, it doesn't mean he isn't thinking and feeling. Ennis would never be able to have the deep, powerful, and special bond and connection he had with Jack with Alma, or anything close to it.

Agreed. And well-said. Not only did no one else figure out Ennis, more often than not, no one else bothered to look deeper. Jack was the one who respected him on the mountain, and out of that mutual respect, Ennis opened up, and said more words than he did in a year. That charmed Jack in ways that was deep and stirring. The look on his face, looking at Ennis, is priceless, a man in love. At that moment, they connected.

And it's pretty obvious that his relationship with Cassie is extremely reluctant at first, and eventually became one of convenience as it provided a decent cover for a paranoid and fearful Ennis living alone in a place like Riverton after a divorce. I honestly don't believe that had there been no Jack, and had Ennis already divorced Alma, that Cassie would have had a chance either. Ennis would have probably just spent the rest of his life alone after his divorce in that situation. But of course I do think that Ennis wouldn't have divorced Alma had he never met Jack. He would have completely lived the life that was expected of him, and nothing more, nothing less. He would have endured it and kept his innermost thoughts and feelings hidden behind his facade. Ennis was someone who knew the rules and complied (unless he was with Jack).

Again, agreed, and well-said. I believe that if Ennis never met Jack, he would go through not happy, but not unhappy either. He would simply go on living as he would any other day, never knowing nor suspecting there could be days like SNIT, or jumping down stairs two or three at a time.

It's clear that Ennis's fears about homosexuality run deep because of the way he was raised by his father, by what his father showed him at such a young and tender age, and because of the society in which he lived. I think all those factors left the young man Ennis confused and deeply afraid in coming to terms with his real self. Ennis must have had some feelings, or else he wouldn't have become so attached to Jack as he did that summer. I understand what you are saying about the fact that Ennis wouldn't be going out with men had he never met Jack, that's true. It's true that Ennis would have never acted on those feelings had he never met Jack, but I do strongly believe there was something already there, and young Ennis didn't really know how to deal with it so he kept it hidden and repressed. I believe the reason Ennis wasn't attracted to other men after he met Jack, is because he had found his true love, and for Ennis and the way he loved, that meant not being attracted to anyone who wasn't Jack. It is normal for a person who finds true love, who has found their soulmate, to no longer find anyone else attractive because of their strong feelings for that special person.

True enough. And a fair question. If Ennis never met Jack, would another man, like Jack, be able to make similar connections with Ennis after he had already married Alma? I suppose, under the same conditions, working and living together on Brokeback Mountain, Ennis and another man, similar to Jack in all aspects that matter, may make the same connections and fall in love. Like I said, Ennis is Jacksexaul. Does that make him gay? What if that other person is female, like Cassie, with all the fun and passion of Jack? It's another interesting hypothetical to explore, but we would never know for sure... the nature of what ifs.

As for what Jack did, Jack the extrovert distracted himself and dealt with his pain in his way by having meaningless relationships with other men, Ennis, the introvert, dealt with his pain in his own way, quietly, and inwardly. The differences in how they dealt reflects the differences in their personalities. Again, the whole story is about true love, not about being "gay" or being "straight", whatever that's supposed to mean anyways. But what I'm saying is that just the way Ennis is, and the way he's afraid of his feelings in the very beginning the first summer on Brokeback Mountain, is revealing that this is a person who had been struggling on the inside for a while, knowing that he had feelings which conflicted with what the society he lived in expected from him. Had he never met Jack, all of that would have been hidden and repressed, and Ennis would have just been dutiful husband to Alma all his life, pushing any feelings back, neither happy nor sad, simply accepting what this life had handed him stoically, but his destined meeting and finding his soulmate, Jack, changed his life forever and in the end, makes him realize what his true feelings have been all along. But the bottom line is that it is a love story, and while we disagree on some points, I think we can all agree that it's about two souls who love each other deeply, truly, purely, and completely, and the tragedy is that they couldn't have the life they deserved together because of the circumstances they were in.

Beautifully said athena. Jack was the Michaelangelo that freed Ennis from the marble of homophobia. 

[athena0204]

I think we under estimate the power of Jack on Ennis when we say Ennis would fall in love with another man if Jack never showed. My point is that Ennis fell for Jack and Jack alone precise because of the special connection between the two, and no other would fit like two shirts together. Ennis had the potential, only for Jack. Ennis is Jacksexual, not homosexual.

It's true that Ennis would never have truly fallen in love with anyone, man or woman, if he'd never met Jack. He would never be able to love someone in the way that he loved his soulmate. He could never make the bond he made with him with anyone else. But Ennis did have the potential to fall in love with a man before he met Jack, which is precisely the reason he was able to do so. Of course had he never met Jack, his world would have been limited, he would just have his life with Alma, and nothing else and live in his own insular world. It would take a man exactly like Jack, with all his qualitie, his exact same personality, and his looks as well to make Ennis fall in love with that man. Of course it would take the soul of Jack, and only one person had that, Jack, but that doesn't mean that Ennis didn't have the ability and potential to fall in love with the right man if he ever came along, (and in this case, he most certainly did). Had Ennis never had any homosexual feelings of any sort at all, then his relationship would Jack would have been brotherly, not romantic. But again, what matters is that Ennis loved Jack completely, his soul and all. Ennis had the potential for a man like Jack, and a man like Jack was rare and hard to find in this world, but Ennis was destined to meet him against all odds.


 

Agreed. And well-said. Not only did no one else figure out Ennis, more often than not, no one else bothered to look deeper. Jack was the one who respected him on the mountain, and out of that mutual respect, Ennis opened up, and said more words than he did in a year. That charmed Jack in ways that was deep and stirring. The look on his face, looking at Ennis, is priceless, a man in love. At that moment, they connected.

Yes that's very true, Jack was the only one who truly bothered to look deeper and who truly gave Ennis a chance, and sought to understand him, not just be stumped by his quietness and his demeanor. Jack was the only one who understood that Ennis had built a wall around himself to protect himself and shield himself from the world around him. He was the only one who actually looked inside Ennis and saw his beautiful soul that he kept hidden.


To answer that other question, I think it is only if that man were to be exactly like Jack, then yes Ennis would fall in love with that man. Of course, guys who are exactly like Jack don't come around very often especially not in the setting Ennis lived in. So would he have a met someone exactly like him? No, and therefore he would have just kept all that potential to truly deeply love a man hidden. But I believe Ennis was destined to meet Jack no matter what. There was no way that it could be avoided, and no circumstances could be able to stand in the way of them meeting. As for the question as to whether someone else could have set the real Ennis free, and if they had been a woman like Cassie, I don't believe she would have been able to. Ennis would not have been able to have the same deep, true, powerful, pure, and eternal love he has with Jack with someone like Cassie. If Cassie had come along and he'd never met Jack, Ennis could never open up to her or anyone else the way he opened up to Jack. While Cassie did share certain qualities with Jack, she wasn't exactly like Jack. It wasn't just fun and passion that made Ennis fall in love with Jack. There was something far more, something that made Ennis for the first time in his life feel loved and included and understood. I don't believe Cassie really had the potential to look deeper into Ennis, Ennis would have still felt like a stranger around her, as he did around everyone except for Jack. He lived within his own walls and his own inward thoughts and feelings and it was something he never showed to the world. No one knew anything about how Ennis truly felt inside, and who he truly is inside. Only Jack unlocked those iron gates and understood him, therefore only he knew the real Ennis, and only he had the potential to know the real Ennis.

Thanks, lancecowboy. And that sentence is beautifully said as well. Jack was the only one who could unlock the door to Ennis's heart. That's why they are truly soulmates, and were meant to find each other, and meant for each other.

[lancecowboy]

It's true that Ennis would never have truly fallen in love with anyone, man or woman, if he'd never met Jack. He would never be able to love someone in the way that he loved his soulmate. He could never make the bond he made with him with anyone else. But Ennis did have the potential to fall in love with a man before he met Jack, which is precisely the reason he was able to do so. Of course had he never met Jack, his world would have been limited, he would just have his life with Alma, and nothing else and live in his own insular world. It would take a man exactly like Jack, with all his qualitie, his exact same personality, and his looks as well to make Ennis fall in love with that man. Of course it would take the soul of Jack, and only one person had that, Jack, but that doesn't mean that Ennis didn't have the ability and potential to fall in love with the right man if he ever came along, (and in this case, he most certainly did). Had Ennis never had any homosexual feelings of any sort at all, then his relationship would Jack would have been brotherly, not romantic. But again, what matters is that Ennis loved Jack completely, his soul and all. Ennis had the potential for a man like Jack, and a man like Jack was rare and hard to find in this world, but Ennis was destined to meet him against all odds.


 
Yes that's very true, Jack was the only one who truly bothered to look deeper and who truly gave Ennis a chance, and sought to understand him, not just be stumped by his quietness and his demeanor. Jack was the only one who understood that Ennis had built a wall around himself to protect himself and shield himself from the world around him. He was the only one who actually looked inside Ennis and saw his beautiful soul that he kept hidden.

I think Ennis also responded, in his own limited fashion, to Cassie, who also looked deeper to see more than the stoic cowboy.

I don't think we will ever know for sure if Ennis would have been happy with Cassie, if he never met Jack. Would have, and hypothetical are not very meaningful.

I think there was a special bond  between Ennis and Jack not only because of the men themselves, but also the circumstances on that mountain. The shared experiences drew them closer together like no other. If Ennis and Cassie were to share similar experiences, for example, running a bar together in town, or whatever, the experience may help them to bond. We will never know.

To answer that other question, I think it is only if that man were to be exactly like Jack, then yes Ennis would fall in love with that man. Of course, guys who are exactly like Jack don't come around very often especially not in the setting Ennis lived in. So would he have a met someone exactly like him? No, and therefore he would have just kept all that potential to truly deeply love a man hidden. But I believe Ennis was destined to meet Jack no matter what. There was no way that it could be avoided, and no circumstances could be able to stand in the way of them meeting. As for the question as to whether someone else could have set the real Ennis free, and if they had been a woman like Cassie, I don't believe she would have been able to. Ennis would not have been able to have the same deep, true, powerful, pure, and eternal love he has with Jack with someone like Cassie. If Cassie had come along and he'd never met Jack, Ennis could never open up to her or anyone else the way he opened up to Jack. While Cassie did share certain qualities with Jack, she wasn't exactly like Jack. It wasn't just fun and passion that made Ennis fall in love with Jack. There was something far more, something that made Ennis for the first time in his life feel loved and included and understood. I don't believe Cassie really had the potential to look deeper into Ennis, Ennis would have still felt like a stranger around her, as he did around everyone except for Jack. He lived within his own walls and his own inward thoughts and feelings and it was something he never showed to the world. No one knew anything about how Ennis truly felt inside, and who he truly is inside. Only Jack unlocked those iron gates and understood him, therefore only he knew the real Ennis, and only he had the potential to know the real Ennis.

Thanks, lancecowboy. And that sentence is beautifully said as well. Jack was the only one who could unlock the door to Ennis's heart. That's why they are truly soulmates, and were meant to find each other, and meant for each other.

Thank you, athena. Your fresh look at the movie helps me to appreciate it even more.