Topic: The Shirts, the meaining

[babytammy7]

Atalley, Ennis didn't want to live with Jack because he didn't want Jack to die murdered by some homophobic men with tire irons (and he didn't want to die either)....So in a way he spent all his life protecting Jack. I think that's what Ali wanted to say. 

[myprivatejack]

Thomas...yeah, that makes sense.

MPJ...I'm not sure of ways that Ennis protected Jack.  Got some examples?

Atalley, Ennis didn't want to live with Jack because he didn't want Jack to die murdered by some homophobic men with tire irons (and he didn't want to die either)....So in a way he spent all his life protecting Jack. I think that's what Ali wanted to say. 

  ,Tammy ¡ Yes,what I meant is that one of the reasons why Ennis always denied their "sweet life together" had been not showing themselves as they really were in a homophobic environment-the analysis could be deeper,but it's enough as a first step-.For me at least,is a way of protecting his love from any dangers they could run bearing in mind the situation...

[tpe]

Yes,one would...But for Ennis,Jack was there almost physically.And so,this is the kind of things he woud like to do being his lover alive,as a tenderness and protection gesture.As a matter of fact,Ennis spent half his life protecting Jack somehow...

Thomas...yeah, that makes sense.

MPJ...I'm not sure of ways that Ennis protected Jack.  Got some examples?

Thanks MPJ and atalley.

As Tammy had said, I understand MPJ's statement to mean that Ennis didn't want to live opnely with Jack because he honestly felt that it was the best way to protect their love for each other, contra mundum, so to speak.  In this light, the final scene with the shirts reflects an extension of his protection of that love beyond Jack's death -- via Jack's shirt, which is protected by his own shirt.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks MPJ and atalley.

As Tammy had said, I understand MPJ's statement to mean that Ennis didn't want to live opnely with Jack because he honestly felt that it was the best way to protect their love for each other, contra mundum, so to speak.  In this light, the final scene with the shirts reflects an extension of his protection of that love beyond Jack's death -- via Jack's shirt, which is protected by his own shirt.

  Thomas¡.Yes,you have put what I meant into words wonderfully.Isn't that a way of protecting themselves against society rules and misunderstanding-a coward way,but a valid way...-? Hidding their love better than showing it before everybody?.

[atalley]

Thank guys...gotcha'.

[pattyjean]

Did anyone notice that the two shirts hanging in Jack's closet had not been washed?   There was the blood on the sleeves and dirt on the collars.  But in the final scene of Ennis buttoning Jack's shirt, the collars were immaculately clean--insinuating that Ennis had laundered them!  "Jack, I swear..."   

[babytammy7]

Did anyone notice that the two shirts hanging in Jack's closet had not been washed?   There was the blood on the sleeves and dirt on the collars.  But in the final scene of Ennis buttoning Jack's shirt, the collars were immaculately clean--insinuating that Ennis had laundered them!  "Jack, I swear..."   

I don't think so, Patty. I don't think that Ennis washed the shirts. I can't see him washing that blood that meant so much to Jack. And remember how Ennis tried to smell Jack there in his shirt? He was desperate to get some glimpse of Jack in the fabric, so I don't think he wanted to erase the only think he had of Jack, his odor, even if that odor was only in Ennis mind. Those were the only thing he had from BBM, and I think he did like Jack did: he didn't wash those shirts, he wanted them with Jack and the mountain's smell there, with the dirt from when they were rolling in the hill, with everything what BBM was.

He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.

[tpe]

Thomas¡.Yes,you have put what I meant into words wonderfully.Isn't that a way of protecting themselves against society rules and misunderstanding-a coward way,but a valid way...-? Hidding their love better than showing it before everybody?.

It's not exactly a cowardly way.  And given the time, the place, and the circumstances, perhaps he was right to be wary.  IN a way, his "vision" of how Jack died revealed his state of mind. 

I think it is certainly one "valid" way -- a way that predominated for much of history, I would say.

[tpe]

Did anyone notice that the two shirts hanging in Jack's closet had not been washed?   There was the blood on the sleeves and dirt on the collars.  But in the final scene of Ennis buttoning Jack's shirt, the collars were immaculately clean--insinuating that Ennis had laundered them!  "Jack, I swear..."   

I don't think so, Patty. I don't think that Ennis washed the shirts. I can't see him washing that blood that meant so much to Jack. And remember how Ennis tried to smell Jack there in his shirt? He was desperate to get some glimpse of Jack in the fabric, so I don't think he wanted to erase the only think he had of Jack, his odor, even if that odor was only in Ennis mind. Those were the only thing he had from BBM, and I think he did like Jack did: he didn't wash those shirts, he wanted them with Jack and the mountain's smell there, with the dirt from when they were rolling in the hill, with everything what BBM was.

He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.

I think I would agree with Tammy, pattyjean.  Of course, in the movie, we don't get to see the bloodstains, so perhaps this is an open point of discussion as far as the movie is concerned?

[myprivatejack]

It's not exactly a cowardly way.  And given the time, the place, and the circumstances, perhaps he was right to be wary.  IN a way, his "vision" of how Jack died revealed his state of mind. 

I think it is certainly one "valid" way -- a way that predominated for much of history, I would say.

Well,what I said "coward" I didn't say it in the full sense of the word...As a matter of fact,I said it with a question mark to express a dichotomy.It's logical that our behaviour changes according to the situation we live; and it's more logical still that Ennis environment didn't favour too much a boldness act on the part of him...

[pattyjean]

I think I would agree with Tammy, pattyjean.  Of course, in the movie, we don't get to see the bloodstains, so perhaps this is an open point of discussion as far as the movie is concerned?

I will watch the ending again:  Seems as if the shirts in Jack's closet looked bloody and dirty on the collars--which would be typical--considering their work and that last-day-lasso-fight.  When the shirts are shown in Ennis' closet, the collars look pristine, and shirts actually looked pressed!  Am I losing it?     

[myprivatejack]

I think I would agree with Tammy, pattyjean.  Of course, in the movie, we don't get to see the bloodstains, so perhaps this is an open point of discussion as far as the movie is concerned?

I tend to agree too with what Tammy said,pattyjean; the shirts are a too strong symbolism as to change them in any way.They must have forever the memories of these happy times,for what these bloodstains were the proof; if they had got cleaned,they only had been two pieces of clothes ready to wear.They musn't be worn,for nobody,even for Ennis himself;they must remained just in this way forever,saving-at least in Ennis mind-Jack's touch and smell.

[pattyjean]

I tend to agree too with what Tammy said,pattyjean; the shirts are a too strong symbolism as to change them in any way.They must have forever the memories of these happy times,for what these bloodstains were the proof; if they had got cleaned,they only had been two pieces of clothes ready to wear.They musn't be worn,for nobody,even for Ennis himself;they must remained just in this way forever,saving-at least in Ennis mind-Jack's touch and smell.

OK, I watched the ending again, and the shirts do look untampered-with.  Actually neither shirt looks pristine, but not very dirty either.  And, yes--They are meant to be unworn for all eternity by ANYONE!  I envy the guy who owns them now!  I stand corrected...Tammy and MPJ.   

[LuvJackNasty]

I always saw the shirts as a symbol of Jack’s undying love; his “I love you” from the grave and something so tangible for Ennis to hold onto- and keeping them locked in that dozy embrace. I think that is pretty much what we all see in them, so no I'm not stating the obvious  It hit me that maybe there is more symbolism there-almost a bookend of sorts. I wonder if Ennis ever sees that fight when he looks at them- the lasso scene. Thinking on how they were forced apart too soon and there was nothing either could do about it, much like now when he has them. It was supposed to be a “forever” goodbye in ’63 and yet it wasn’t and they had all of those years together. There was room for hope then, but not now; at least in terms of seeing each other. They (the shirts) were born from a goodbye and all of the things not said but kept in the heart; how different things could have been if that chance was taken and yet through this goodbye so much was said.

[tpe]

Well,what I said "coward" I didn't say it in the full sense of the word...As a matter of fact,I said it with a question mark to express a dichotomy.It's logical that our behaviour changes according to the situation we live; and it's more logical still that Ennis environment didn't favour too much a boldness act on the part of him...

Ennis seems to swing betweeen boldness and timidity, no?  The Reunion kiss surprised me.  And certainly, the fight that got the shirts all bloodied is rooted in his internal dichotomy/conflict.  In a way, the bloodied shirt is a reminder of this.

[tpe]

I will watch the ending again:  Seems as if the shirts in Jack's closet looked bloody and dirty on the collars--which would be typical--considering their work and that last-day-lasso-fight.  When the shirts are shown in Ennis' closet, the collars look pristine, and shirts actually looked pressed!  Am I losing it?     

I should compare more closely then. 

[tpe]

OK, I watched the ending again, and the shirts do look untampered-with.  Actually neither shirt looks pristine, but not very dirty either.  And, yes--They are meant to be unworn for all eternity by ANYONE!  I envy the guy who owns them now!  I stand corrected...Tammy and MPJ.   

OK.  Still, I'll watch and compare more carefully...

Didn't Tom Gregory comment about the absence of the stains when he got the shirt?  I suspect that he too appreciated the symbolism.  But it didn't seem to matter to him, in the long run...

[tpe]

I always saw the shirts as a symbol of Jack’s undying love; his “I love you” from the grave and something so tangible for Ennis to hold onto- and keeping them locked in that dozy embrace. I think that is pretty much what we all see in them, so no I'm not stating the obvious  It hit me that maybe there is more symbolism there-almost a bookend of sorts. I wonder if Ennis ever sees that fight when he looks at them- the lasso scene. Thinking on how they were forced apart too soon and there was nothing either could do about it, much like now when he has them. It was supposed to be a “forever” goodbye in ’63 and yet it wasn’t and they had all of those years together. There was room for hope then, but not now; at least in terms of seeing each other. They (the shirts) were born from a goodbye and all of the things not said but kept in the heart; how different things could have been if that chance was taken and yet through this goodbye so much was said.

Yes, for me, when Ennis discovered the shirts in LF, it was as if Jack had come back from the dead to declare his love for Ennis.  For me, it is in fact a declaration of love. 

And you touched on what I just said in one of the above posts: I believe that the shirts did remind Ennis of the fight, and his own inherent dichotomy. 

[lancecowboy]

I always saw the shirts as a symbol of Jack’s undying love; his “I love you” from the grave and something so tangible for Ennis to hold onto- and keeping them locked in that dozy embrace. I think that is pretty much what we all see in them, so no I'm not stating the obvious  It hit me that maybe there is more symbolism there-almost a bookend of sorts. I wonder if Ennis ever sees that fight when he looks at them- the lasso scene. Thinking on how they were forced apart too soon and there was nothing either could do about it, much like now when he has them. It was supposed to be a “forever” goodbye in ’63 and yet it wasn’t and they had all of those years together. There was room for hope then, but not now; at least in terms of seeing each other. They (the shirts) were born from a goodbye and all of the things not said but kept in the heart; how different things could have been if that chance was taken and yet through this goodbye so much was said.

Thanks, LJN, and welcome back. I love what you said here, because it gave me a different interpretation, that there is hope, that Ennis held on to it, unlike when he gave up after the punch. He held on to Jack in his dreams, in the two shirts. Forever, I swear. The two shirts is a symbol of Jack's steadfast love to Ennis, and also a response of Ennis' undying love for Jack.

[tpe]

Thanks, LJN, and welcome back. I love what you said here, because it gave me a different interpretation, that there is hope, that Ennis held on to it, unlike when he gave up after the punch. He held on to Jack in his dreams, in the two shirts. Forever, I swear. The two shirts is a symbol of Jack's steadfast love to Ennis, and also a response of Ennis' undying love for Jack.

Beautifull said, lance.  The shirts are a witness/testament.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks, LJN, and welcome back. I love what you said here, because it gave me a different interpretation, that there is hope, that Ennis held on to it, unlike when he gave up after the punch. He held on to Jack in his dreams, in the two shirts. Forever, I swear. The two shirts is a symbol of Jack's steadfast love to Ennis, and also a response of Ennis' undying love for Jack.

Beautifull said, lance.  The shirts are a witness/testament.

I quote your words,Thomas,about Andrew's beautiful post.And I'd add-with less wisdom,however...-that the shirts are a love witness or testament.As a matter of fact,is as if Jack gave Ennis in his spiritual will the confirmation of his love for him and the strenght for carry on being different somehow.

[pattyjean]

On the "pix of Ennis and Jack together" thread, there is a very clear photo of them grappling in FNIT:  The cuff of Ennis' shirt shows up very clearly--poking out of his coat.  The shirt looks to be pastel stripes, unlike any of his other shirts! 

Love the shirt he is wearing when he watches Jack ride that "low startle point" mare back to the sheep after breakfast one morning. The shirt has two triangular snap-flaps on each pocket...

The shirt Ennis was wearing during the "lasso" fight does not seem to be either of those:  I'm sooo confused!
 

[tpe]

I quote your words,Thomas,about Andrew's beautiful post.And I'd add-with less wisdom,however...-that the shirts are a love witness or testament.As a matter of fact,is as if Jack gave Ennis in his spiritual will the confirmation of his love for him and the strenght for carry on being different somehow.

Yes, I think it is primarily a witeness/testament to love.  I had said elsewhere that I view the shirts symbolically as a kind of wedding ring, and that Ennis's "I swear" in thr end approximates a wedding vow...

[tpe]

On the "pix of Ennis and Jack together" thread, there is a very clear photo of them grappling in FNIT:  The cuff of Ennis' shirt shows up very clearly--poking out of his coat.  The shirt looks to be pastel stripes, unlike any of his other shirts! 

Love the shirt he is wearing when he watches Jack ride that "low startle point" mare back to the sheep after breakfast one morning. The shirt has two triangular snap-flaps on each pocket...

The shirt Ennis was wearing during the "lasso" fight does not seem to be either of those:  I'm sooo confused!
 

THis also makes me a bit confused.

Well, the movie never explicitly stated that Ennis only had 2 shirts with him up on BBM, no?  Could there have been more than 2 shirsts used in the film?

The same with jack's.  Have we bothered to count how many different shirts we see in the BBM scenes?  Is it any more consistent than in the case of Ennis?

[atalley]

Yes, I think it is primarily a witeness/testament to love.  I had said elsewhere that I view the shirts symbolically as a kind of wedding ring, and that Ennis's "I swear" in thr end approximates a wedding vow...

That's a really good way of looking at them.  A symbol of their love.

[myprivatejack]

Yes, I think it is primarily a witeness/testament to love.  I had said elsewhere that I view the shirts symbolically as a kind of wedding ring, and that Ennis's "I swear" in thr end approximates a wedding vow...

That's it¡ That's what I meant by saying love testament on Jack's side.But you've put it into words as beautifully as always¡.

[pattyjean]

We've probably heard the "I swear" expression many times:  To me, Ennis was saying something like, "Jack, I swear, I can't believe the hold you will have on me for all eternity!"
 

[tpe]

Thanks friends.

I think that "I swear" is intrinsically connected with the shirts.  Notice that Ennis says "I swear" in fron of the shirts -- as if they are Jack's proxy.  Of course, I have said elsewhere that I look at this statement to mean "I swear to be faithful to you and our love forever."  The fact that he treasures the shirts mirrors his desire to keep Jack close to him always -- if only in dreams and in the recesses of his heart.

[Matt Nasty]

Thanks friends.

I think that "I swear" is intrinsically connected with the shirts.  Notice that Ennis says "I swear" in fron of the shirts -- as if they are Jack's proxy.  Of course, I have said elsewhere that I look at this statement to mean "I swear to be faithful to you and our love forever."  The fact that he treasures the shirts mirrors his desire to keep Jack close to him always -- if only in dreams and in the recesses of his heart.

well said! 

[tpe]

Thanks Matt.  I do think the shirts in the end become more than a symbol to Ennis.  They become a kind of living embodiment -- if we disregard the fact that they are inanimate.  I think the blood (and the fact that they were worn) is central to this view.