Topic: Ennis & Jack: Was it an Abusive Relationship, if not why?

[manhattangirl]

The love between them was deep, and lasting, but because of the situation between them, and Ennis inability to deal with it.  Was it an abusive relationship that they were in?  Ennis when he couldn't cope with a situation, tended to be violent, if not physically but mentally.  Jack wasn't a fighter, he just mostly tried to deal with bad situations, and go on with life.

When it time to come down from the mountain, and Ennis complained that could short change in pay, Jack, offered him a loan and Ennis shot back, "I don't need your money." turning on his friend and Jack meekly said "ok".  And there the fight that they when it was time to go and Ennis out of anger and frustration punches Jack.

The final confrontation: Ennis walks up to Jack, and threatened if ever found out, what he did when he wasn't with him, could cause him to get kill.  That's when Jack finally spells it out to Ennis what he really feels.  Ennis did have Jack on a "short leash", and Jack tried to cope with it, because he loved Ennis. 

Did Ennis suffer from paranoia, and Jack a passive aggressive? 

[tpe]

I don't think it was abusive in the sense that Ennis took any keen pleasure at seeing Jack suffer.  That is because Ennis also suffered a great deal deep down.  He was probably aware sometimes that he hurt Jack a lot, but I doubt that he was fully conscious of how much he hurt Jack.  And I don't think Jack really knew except close to the end how much Ennis was hurting inside.

Close to the heart of the tragedy is the conflict within Ennis himself.  It hurt both of them: the lover and the beloved.

[LuvJackNasty]

I don't think it was necessarily abusive- Ennis was unable to articulate his feelings and cope with the emotions- he was fighting an internal battle with himself- wanting to be who he really was and fighting what he was taught was "wrong". Perhaps "taking it out" on Jack was his way of taking it out on the society that wouldn't let him be who he really was- Jack was there and convenient (not sure if I am expressing that the right way) On a surface level yes it looks abusive- the punch, the angry words etc. Like Thomas said- Ennis didn't take any pleasure in hurting Jack and probably wasn't aware that he was really doing so. I think they were both afraid to tip that delicate scale that was their relationship for fear of it unraveling and so those bottled up emotions come out in other ways.

[tpe]

I don't think it was necessarily abusive- Ennis was unable to articulate his feelings and cope with the emotions- he was fighting an internal battle with himself- wanting to be who he really was and fighting what he was taught was "wrong". Perhaps "taking it out" on Jack was his way of taking it out on the society that wouldn't let him be who he really was- Jack was there and convenient (not sure if I am expressing that the right way) On a surface level yes it looks abusive- the punch, the angry words etc. Like Thomas said- Ennis didn't take any pleasure in hurting Jack and probably wasn't aware that he was really doing so. I think they were both afraid to tip that delicate scale that was their relationship for fear of it unraveling and so those bottled up emotions come out in other ways.

And it was a delicate balance, wasn't it?  Jack was especially aware of this.  I think he did his best not to rock the boat, as far as Ennis's emotions were concerned.  In the last meeting, Jack lost his patience.  We see how much damage he could do to Ennis...

[lamusica]

I wonder what their relationship might have morphed into had they lived together.  Would Ennis still have been so quick to fight, to make his feelings physical, or would he have felt more secure in their relationship and lost that edginess that got him into trouble?  Remember his fights with other people, too.  When he was hurt, worked up over something, he had to strike out --- even when he wound up getting hurt himself ( the fight in front of the bar on Thanksgiving evening after he fought with Alma, or the fight at the fair).  Maybe this just shows us more of Ennis's emotional limits.  He went into overdrive when riled up and took it out on whoever was handy.

[tpe]

Interesting question.  Ennis rarely hurt Jack physcially -- only in the fight before coming down from BBM.  He would sooner melt in tears before hurting Jack, it seems. 

I don't think it was in Ennis's nature to be abusive.  He had great self control -- I don't think he ever hurt Alma physically too.  Even in the Thanksgiving scene, he couldn't bring himself to hurt Alma...

[CrimsonSky]

That's a very interesting question. I suppose it depends what you consider an abusive relationship, where it crosses the line from being just an argument or disagreement between a couple, to being something more sinister. I wouldn't say that overall the relationship was abusive, but Ennis definitely controlled the relationship imo, and he often hurt Jack by just turning on him sometimes, when Jack had nothing but good intentions i.e. the loan offer and the fight, as manhattangirl mentioned, the conversation about moving to Texas, or even after FNIT when Ennis just rode off without a word.
I understand there were reasons for Ennis being that way (LJN summed it up perfectly " "taking it out" on Jack was his way of taking it out on the society that wouldn't let him be who he really was- Jack was there and convenient" ) and I know Ennis didn't intentionally hurt Jack to get any kind of sadistic pleasure out of it, and I think Jack knew that, but it wouldn't have been much consolation to him when he was nursing his bruises after the fight on the mountain, or crying his eyes out on the way to Mexico 

I don't think Ennis realised just how much he hurt Jack at times, and it would've been good if Jack had called him on it sooner,rather than just getting back up everytime he got knocked down, but Jack loved him so much, he took the bad times if it meant they could still have the good times, however brief they were. It was just another thing that he had to stand cause he couldn't fix it

I think if they had lived together Ennis would've mellowed a bit, after all his frustration was the result of not being able to be with Jack, and Jack would've felt secure enough in the relationship to stand up to Ennis if he felt he was being treated unfairly, rather than just accepting it so as to not drive Ennis away for good. Saying that, I think Ennis's short fuse where others were concerned would've remained, things like the fireworks and Thanksgiving fights would've still happened, when he felt threatened by anyone outside of him and Jack.     

[tpe]

I think if they had lived together Ennis would've mellowed a bit, after all his frustration was the result of not being able to be with Jack, and Jack would've felt secure enough in the relationship to stand up to Ennis if he felt he was being treated unfairly, rather than just accepting it so as to not drive Ennis away for good. Saying that, I think Ennis's short fuse where others were concerned would've remained, things like the fireworks and Thanksgiving fights would've still happened, when he felt threatened by anyone outside of him and Jack.     

So true.  I think Jack knew that once he had Ennis, he would be able to mellow him down, make him more emotive and more accepting.  After all, Ennis was probably most tender and most caring when he was with Jack.

Jack certainly had a strange power over Ennis.  Jack did not need force to win him over.  He needed patience.

[LuvJackNasty]

I don't think Ennis realised just how much he hurt Jack at times, and it would've been good if Jack had called him on it sooner,rather than just getting back up everytime he got knocked down, but Jack loved him so much, he took the bad times if it meant they could still have the good times, however brief they were. It was just another thing that he had to stand cause he couldn't fix it

Great post CS  I also don't think he realized the extent of how he hurt Jack I think it has to do with him compartmentalizing in a way. He was keeping Jack at bay because he was very wary of the dangers. I think when Jack expressed the desire to ranch up together it was something Ennis wanted more than anything but it was more a safety first kind of thing. I think he had a lot of guilt over denying Jack, perhaps some anger that Jack just didn't "get it" and I think it was his own sense of being denied what he wanted- mix that all together with the fact that he either can't or doesn't know how to articulate that and it comes out in a not so nice manner. If Ennis were to express that he thought about the sweet life (which I'm pretty sure he did), Jack would have been off and running and badgering him even more not understanding that if Ennis wanted it how could he still say no? So if Ennis wanted to express things in a more gentle manner to Jack it could have led to a bigger arguement and even more hurt feelings. I still think it's his defense mechanism though- say or do something that gets the conversation off topic by avoiding the real issue(s).

[welshwitch]

I agree with LJN. If Ennis had responded to Jack, say in the "It could be like this always" scene, by admitting that he liked the idea of living with Jack even if he was afraid of the reality, then Jack would have used that admission as a basis for trying to persuade him. Ennis didn't even understand his own feelings - once he'd described the way his father showed him Earl's body he couldn't articulate the effect this had had on him - maybe he expected Jack to work it out intuitively - but he wouldn;t have been capable of arguing with Jack over it.

So he did what he always did - took refuge in a stubborn negative follwed by silence.

[tpe]

In spite of their tender feelings for each other, both of them tried to deal with it in a gruff, more "masculine" or matter-of-fact way -- showing very little feelings, except in certain intense scenes.

The fight before coming down from BBM is typical of this.  As I had mentioned before, I considered this fight as almost akin to the act of 2 lovers making love; else, it would equivalent to Jacob wrestling with the Angel.  For Ennis, especially, it was a way of hiding his true feelings on losing Jack so early that summer.  He didn't want to cry openly, even though he felt miserable.  And Jack knew what was going through Ennis's mind, and yet he never mentioned anything.  Unstead, he tried to horse around with Ennis to raise his spirits, and Ennis was just in no mood for this.

Trying to appear macho in the face of their intense feelings accounts for a great deal of what may be though of as abusive behaviour, IMO.

[manhattangirl]

But, let's look at Jack,  OK, he imitated the reunion, understood, and they do finally meet again, what does Ennis do, he kisses Jack so passionately in the light of day,  and catch the look in Jack's eyes, he was stun and inside him the passion rose again. Ennis said " later" and walked away, Jack stood there looking at him, probably saying "after all this time he still wants me"   I believe Jack  didn't know what going to happen,  but Ennis did.

The motel scene really gets to me.   The love making between them must have been explosive,  with Ennis laying in Jack's arms,  and when Jack ask that fatal question, "What are we gonna do we now?"  Ennis closes the door.  "There not much we can do, making a living is all I have time for now".  This the beginning of the trend Ennis would take throughout their relationship,  and Jack keeps right on going back, and Ennis keep pushing him back.  

The final confrontation scene seem quite brutal to me.  It was as if Ennis got use to the idea he could keep changing the rules and calling the shots on Jack, without consequence because he knew Jack would always come back, until Jack final turned on him.   That must of really shocked Ennis.  But, what does Ennis do, like all abusers in one way or the other, they blame the object of their abuse for their actions.     "It's because of you Jack, I'm  this way.", "I got nothing, I'm no where"   What does that tell you?  When he is finally pushed in an emotional corner,  who's fault is it?   I  know Ennis loved Jack, in sense that sometimes is mystery to me.  His need for him, and constant rejection of him, is a kind of abuse that leaves no physical marks but emotional.  But Jack was always the one constant in his life that would always be there for him.  And with all situation like this, its not realized until its gone.    

 

[CrimsonSky]

The final confrontation scene seem quite brutal to me.  It was as if Ennis got use to the idea he could keep changing the rules and calling the shots on Jack, without consequence because he knew Jack would always come back, until Jack final turned on him.   That must of really shocked Ennis.  But, what does Ennis do, like all abusers in one way or the other, they blame the object of their abuse for their actions.     "It's because of you Jack, I'm  this way.", "I got nothing, I'm no where"   What does that tell you?  When he is finally pushed in an emotional corner,  who's fault is it?   I  know Ennis loved Jack, in sense that sometimes is mystery to me.  His need for him, and constant rejection of him, is a kind of abuse that leaves no physical marks but emotional.  But Jack was always the one constant in his life that would always be there for him.  And with all situation like this, its not realized until its gone.    

 

I was thinking about that scene in connection with this topic last night after I logged off, and I think you've hit the nail on the head, it's classic abuser behaviour to blame the victim, and Jack's reaction is classic of abused partners as well, in that he accepts the blame and ends up comforting Ennis. And I believe that if Jack had lived he would've been there in November, despite that confrontation, because he knew that Ennis loved him, the good times far outweighed the bad, and Ennis's cruelty was a result of him not being able to cope with the feelings he had for Jack. As LJN said, it was Ennis's defence mechanism kicking in, attack being the best form of defence for Ennis (and not just with Jack, but in all aspects of his life). Same with the fight on the mountain, as tpe mentioned, it was Ennis's way of showing how much he loved Jack, and how he couldn't cope with losing him. Likening it to making love is spot on,imo, because that sort of extreme anger and frustration could only come from an equally extreme feeling of love and despair. Jack knew that, and that's why he put up with Ennis's cruelty, in a way, it confirmed Ennis's love for him.

Having said all that,even though aspects of the relationship can definitely be percieved as abusive, I wouldn't label it an abusive relationship, because it was never a "normal" relationship, in the sense that they only saw each other a few times a year, so all their emotions were magnified for the short periods of time they were together, and Ennis's sometimes abusive behaviour was a result of his frustration with the situation, rather than because he was an abusive person by nature. If they'd been able to live together and have a "proper" relationship, I think things would've been very different.   

[tpe]

But, let's look at Jack,  OK, he imitated the reunion, understood, and they do finally meet again, what does Ennis do, he kisses Jack so passionately in the light of day,  and catch the look in Jack's eyes, he was stun and inside him the passion rose again. Ennis said " later" and walked away, Jack stood there looking at him, probably saying "after all this time he still wants me"   I believe Jack  didn't know what going to happen,  but Ennis did.

Personally, I don't think Ennis had things planned out .  I believe that he himself did not anticipate that he would kiss Jack.  He was just caught in the moment and surprised at the intensity of his feelings after 4 years.  If Ennis were his normal self, he probably would not have been more cautious.  Some caution did kick in at the ned of the kiss.  And I think he said "later" as an indication of that return to caution.

The motel scene really gets to me.   The love making between them must have been explosive,  with Ennis laying in Jack's arms,  and when Jack ask that fatal question, "What are we gonna do we now?"  Ennis closes the door.  "There not much we can do, making a living is all I have time for now".  This the beginning of the trend Ennis would take throughout their relationship,  and Jack keeps right on going back, and Ennis keep pushing him back.  

I suspect that Ennis was just being honest with the way he felt.  And I think he did feel trapped in a way.  The problem was that between those 4 years, both of them had married and had had children, and Ennis expected that they were under an obligation to look after their respective families first and foremost.  This is reflected in the scene where Ennis tells Jack that "it ain't gonna be that way..."  He had Alma and the kids, and Jack had Lureen and his son.

I do believe that later on, Ennis uses this as a crutch to put some distance between himself and Jack.  But at this moment, Ennis did not do this.

The final confrontation scene seem quite brutal to me.  It was as if Ennis got use to the idea he could keep changing the rules and calling the shots on Jack, without consequence because he knew Jack would always come back, until Jack final turned on him.   That must of really shocked Ennis.  But, what does Ennis do, like all abusers in one way or the other, they blame the object of their abuse for their actions.     "It's because of you Jack, I'm  this way.", "I got nothing, I'm no where"   What does that tell you?  When he is finally pushed in an emotional corner,  who's fault is it?   I  know Ennis loved Jack, in sense that sometimes is mystery to me.  His need for him, and constant rejection of him, is a kind of abuse that leaves no physical marks but emotional.  But Jack was always the one constant in his life that would always be there for him.  And with all situation like this, its not realized until its gone.    

There is an entire thread devoted to the meaning of "It's because of you Jack, I'm  this way.. I'm nothing, I'm no where".  I think in this scene, both of them are driven into a corner, and both are hurt deeply.  The fact that Ennis was hurt shows us how much he had to bear deep down.  It also hurt him not being able to see Jack.  It hurt him thinking that Jack was unfaithful.  But he though he could bear it.  During this confrontation, Ennis practically admitted to Jack that he couldn't stand what he couldn't fix.

 

[manhattangirl]

Remember Ennis took off from work, with  his brand new shirt on and his combed hair.   He waited, he didn't know when Jack was coming, and he waited, and waited, till dusk for his friend to come.   And when he did and felt himself in his arms again, what else could have happened, he did what he wanted to do kiss  his lover.  Jack's given an answer to his possible question.

When you say Ennis felt obligated for the both of them to look after their families,  this is when I feel  perceive nobility, always kicks  you in the rear.  Jack was up front, he knew what he wanted and what they should do.  Ennis hiding behind the pretense of family, when in actuality he was in a daze throughout the marriage.   A typical defensive move.

The final confrontation:  His ability to see Jack was never in question.  He could have seen him,  had him, talk to him whenever he wanted, he knew that all he had to do was pick up that phone, and Jack would be there.  It was his own self inflicted fears that was his undoing,  and the knowledge that in his own rage if he ever found out that Jack was with someone else will  cause him to kill him, out of passion and loss of control over Jack.   How long do think this relationship could last going on this way,  until Ennis said to Jack, "Let's go to Texas, or that Ennis does kill Jack, in a jealous rage,  One thing certain,  they would have never stop seeing each other, they were all they had, and all they wanted.

So many layers to this story, so many possibilities of interpretation.

[tpe]

Remember Ennis took off from work, with  his brand new shirt on and his combed hair.   He waited, he didn't know when Jack was coming, and he waited, and waited, till dusk for his friend to come.   And when he did and felt himself in his arms again, what else could have happened, he did what he wanted to do kiss  his lover.  Jack's given an answer to his possible question.

There was a moment's hesitation on Ennis's and jack's part, after the embrace, no?  I think that awkward moment was quite telling.  Both of them were unsure what to do next, and Ennis seemd to have reacted on impulse.  I think he certainly wanted to kiss Jack. but I don't think he planned to do exactly what he did.

I think we all can relate to this situation.  When we meet a special someone -- even if we prepare for days, weeks, or months at what we would do at the precise moment of meeting, impulse usually wins the day.  It's because we as human beings can never fully anticipate what we would do in a situation where passion gets hold of us and yet some distance is called for.  Long separations or reconciliations are perfect examples, and I think Ennis was no different in this regard.

When you say Ennis felt obligated for the both of them to look after their families,  this is when I feel  perceive nobility, always kicks  you in the rear.  Jack was up front, he knew what he wanted and what they should do.  Ennis hiding behind the pretense of family, when in actuality he was in a daze throughout the marriage.   A typical defensive move.

Jack certainly knew what he wanted -- and he wanted Ennis even at the risk of never seeing wife and child again.  This is exceptional.  Ennis's reaction is more typical of most of us:  we weight what our actions would mean to those around us and we hesitate.    I think Jack was truly exceptional in that he would sacrifice eveything for his love, but we can't really blame Ennis for acting like most of us when put in the same situation.

The final confrontation:  His ability to see Jack was never in question.  He could have seen him,  had him, talk to him whenever he wanted, he knew that all he had to do was pick up that phone, and Jack would be there.  It was his own self inflicted fears that was his undoing,  and the knowledge that in his own rage if he ever found out that Jack was with someone else will  cause him to kill him, out of passion and loss of control over Jack.   How long do think this relationship could last going on this way,  until Ennis said to Jack, "Let's go to Texas, or that Ennis does kill Jack, in a jealous rage,  One thing certain,  they would have never stop seeing each other, they were all they had, and all they wanted.

So many layers to this story, so many possibilities of interpretation.

In the final years, I do believe that Ennis got deeper and deeper into his own issues.  But I don't really think it was his intention to hurt jack or even to leave him.  Certainly, practical considerations (divorce and child support)  also came in the way, but I think the main problem was that Ennis himself was beginning to be too used to suffering and long separations.  His stoicism had made him forget that one can choose to live life happily, in spite of hardships.  It is a sad thing, but I don't really think the motive was to hurt Jack.  As Jack said "I'm not you".  Ennis's stoicism was on a Heroic scale, but it hurt himself most of all in the end.

[manhattangirl]

In Annie Proulx's short story that scene was describe this way: 'then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came togeher and hard,'.    In the film, Ennis does stop to look around to see if anyone was watching, grabs Jack and kisses him.   Ennis has  bottled up his emotional needs, and yes even his sexual needs, though he was married, that was denied  those four years, and could only be released until Jack came back to him.    And that was what he tried to fight so fiercely against for twenty years, and that was what Jack suffered under. 

Would you call this a paradox?

[lamusica]

I honestly think the discussion going on here is the most eye-opening I have read yet.  Everyone has made some valid points that only enrich the story and the characters.
Yes---there was some emotional abuse.
Yes---Ennis hurt Jack -- probably unintentionally more than otherwise.
Yes---They would have continued to meet had Jack not been killed.
Yes---They needed each other.  (How much differentce is there between loving and needing someone, anyhow?)
I revel in all the possibilities you guys have suggested here.  Thank you.

[tpe]

In Annie Proulx's short story that scene was describe this way: 'then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came togeher and hard,'.    In the film, Ennis does stop to look around to see if anyone was watching, grabs Jack and kisses him.   Ennis has  bottled up his emotional needs, and yes even his sexual needs, though he was married, that was denied  those four years, and could only be released until Jack came back to him.    And that was what he tried to fight so fiercely against for twenty years, and that was what Jack suffered under. 

Would you call this a paradox?

Yes, in the ss, the indication is that it was natural -- inescapable or second nature to both of them.  Hence, the implication is that the kiss was not planned or a set-up.    The same thing can be observed in the FNIT, where in the ss, Ennis does not need an instruction manual -- meaning that his instinct guided him on what he had to do, without foreknowledge or advance planning.

[tpe]

I honestly think the discussion going on here is the most eye-opening I have read yet.  Everyone has made some valid points that only enrich the story and the characters.
Yes---there was some emotional abuse.
Yes---Ennis hurt Jack -- probably unintentionally more than otherwise.
Yes---They would have continued to meet had Jack not been killed.
Yes---They needed each other.  (How much differentce is there between loving and needing someone, anyhow?)
I revel in all the possibilities you guys have suggested here.  Thank you.

All the above is true, IMO.  I do think they would have continued to meet, because I believe there was no choice so long as either of them lived.

[LuvJackNasty]

In reading all of the great and thoughtful insights a thought occured to me. Now I'm probably straying way off base and certainly going out on a limb here but.... here goes:

Do you think that it is possible that somewhere, deep inside, Ennis subconsciously wanted Jack to get fed up and leave him be? I don't believe he was deliberately mean to Jack- as I said earlier it's just how all of those emotions manifested themselves.  I know he loved Jack and I believe he was at his happiest when with Jack or even thinking of Jack but Jack is also a source of so many conflicting emotions for Ennis. I'm thinking of this more along the lines of how he plays the blame game- for example as Manhattan Girl cited "It's because of you that I'm like this..." so does he deep down feel if Jack were to end it that all of his problems would be solved (for lack of better phrasing)? If Jack walks away then there is no more fear, lonely empty stretches between meetings, etc. Certainly he could have ended it himself but then who is there to blame?

I hope I made sense-lol

[manhattangirl]

IMO,

No, he didn't want Jack to leave him, he needed him too much, he wanted him too much, and he loved him too much, and that where the problem lay for Ennis.  The object his desire, and what he needed, and loved, was also the object of  his fears, of his paranoia, his inability to move forward in life was caused, in his mind, by Jack and his love for him.  If Ennis was successful and drove Jack away what would Ennis have?  The loss of the man he loved, and the source of the one emotion he felt comfortable with, fear, and then he really would have nothing.

But Jack died, and he had the shirts so now he's in a safe place to love him, in a trailer in the middle of nowhere.

[LuvJackNasty]

Well that's how I feel that he never wanted to part ways- their love was too strong for that and I will never accept that last meeting was the end for them- Jack would have been back had he lived.  And we all feel Ennis's pain when he realizes that Jack is dead 

The object his desire, and what he needed, and loved, was also the object of  his fears, of his paranoia, his inability to move forward in life was caused, in his mind, by Jack and his love for him. That's why I was wondering if it was perhaps subconcious and why he came across as short at times.

[manhattangirl]

Ennis wasn't thinking of Jack.  Only what he could cope with.  Ennis at that last meeting told Jack, they were going to meet in November, and not August, as if Jack's feeling about it didn't matter.  But what surprise him was Jack's reaction. Then Jack finally let him have it.  The fact that in all twenty years the few times they were together, the short leash Ennis has Jack on, the loneliness Jack's feels when he's not with Ennis, and that Ennis would kill Jack if he found out he was seeing anyone else.  Jack got tired of Ennis jerking him around, and disregarding how he felt.  The abused finally telling the abuser, enough already.

Then what does Ennis do, turns around and blames Jack, the classic abuser move,  "Its because of you I'm this way."  The abuser telling the abused,  It's your fault, I doing this to you.  You're the blame.  Ennis had his way in this relationship for twenty years, and Jack went along with it.  Until Jack said you're not going to hurt me again.

I've never doubted the love they had for each other, only the form it took.  Ennis laying down the rules and Jack having to live with it, was it fair, was it abusive to the point Ennis thought he owned Jack, and Jacks feelings, and Jack's own being as person, came secondary? 

 I think that why Jack's death left the question open, would he have come back, what would be different between them?     

[tpe]

In reading all of the great and thoughtful insights a thought occured to me. Now I'm probably straying way off base and certainly going out on a limb here but.... here goes:

Do you think that it is possible that somewhere, deep inside, Ennis subconsciously wanted Jack to get fed up and leave him be? I don't believe he was deliberately mean to Jack- as I said earlier it's just how all of those emotions manifested themselves.  I know he loved Jack and I believe he was at his happiest when with Jack or even thinking of Jack but Jack is also a source of so many conflicting emotions for Ennis. I'm thinking of this more along the lines of how he plays the blame game- for example as Manhattan Girl cited "It's because of you that I'm like this..." so does he deep down feel if Jack were to end it that all of his problems would be solved (for lack of better phrasing)? If Jack walks away then there is no more fear, lonely empty stretches between meetings, etc. Certainly he could have ended it himself but then who is there to blame?

I hope I made sense-lol

I think there was a part of Ennis that just wanted to be left alone -- not just by Jack but by everybody.  His intrinsic loneliness had been commented on elsewhere, particularly by Alma in that line in the movie that mebtions how lonely Ennis was raised.  His love of isolated ranches is probably not just based on the fact that they were cheaper.

Still, I don't think he really could have comtemplated getting rid of Jack.  He wanted to maintain the status quo, and it would have been fine with him if they just kept seeing each other after long stretches -- so long as they did meet.  After all, Ennis did send a postcard asking Jack to confirm the meeting in November. 

[tpe]

If Ennis was successful and drove Jack away what would Ennis have? 

Yes: he would have nothing.  Not even the shirts.  That would have been unspeakable to Ennis, I think.

[tpe]

Ennis wasn't thinking of Jack.  Only what he could cope with.  Ennis at that last meeting told Jack, they were going to meet in November, and not August, as if Jack's feeling about it didn't matter.  But what surprise him was Jack's reaction. Then Jack finally let him have it.  The fact that in all twenty years the few times they were together, the short leash Ennis has Jack on, the loneliness Jack's feels when he's not with Ennis, and that Ennis would kill Jack if he found out he was seeing anyone else.  Jack got tired of Ennis jerking him around, and disregarding how he felt.  The abused finally telling the abuser, enough already.

Then what does Ennis do, turns around and blames Jack, the classic abuser move,  "Its because of you I'm this way."  The abuser telling the abused,  It's your fault, I doing this to you.  You're the blame.  Ennis had his way in this relationship for twenty years, and Jack went along with it.  Until Jack said you're not going to hurt me again.

I've never doubted the love they had for each other, only the form it took.  Ennis laying down the rules and Jack having to live with it, was it fair, was it abusive to the point Ennis thought he owned Jack, and Jacks feelings, and Jack's own being as person, came secondary? 

 I think that why Jack's death left the question open, would he have come back, what would be different between them?     

Again, I would want to thank everybody here for this wonderful discussion.  There is s lot here to think about -- to muse within ourselves.  THe objective is not total agreement, but an understanding of all the various points of view we share with each other in this thread.

[lamusica]

Do you think that it is possible that somewhere, deep inside, Ennis subconsciously wanted Jack to get fed up and leave him be? I don't believe he was deliberately mean to Jack- as I said earlier it's just how all of those emotions manifested themselves.  I know he loved Jack and I believe he was at his happiest when with Jack or even thinking of Jack but Jack is also a source of so many conflicting emotions for Ennis. I'm thinking of this more along the lines of how he plays the blame game- for example as Manhattan Girl cited "It's because of you that I'm like this..." so does he deep down feel if Jack were to end it that all of his problems would be solved (for lack of better phrasing)? If Jack walks away then there is no more fear, lonely empty stretches between meetings, etc. Certainly he could have ended it himself but then who is there to blame?

Rather than wishing Jack would leave him alone, I think Ennis was testing Jack.  He was giving Jack an opening to escape the relationship if he wanted to; Jack could go to Mexico, or anywhere else where he could find satisfaction.  Enis was giving him that chance to flee.  What Ennis really wanted was Jack to "torque it back" to where it was before, as Annie says they finally did.  IMO, it is Ennis's poor self-image that keeps him where he is and has made him what he is -- not Jack.  And I believe Ennis realises that.  He is merely shouting out, hitting out at Jack because he can't stand the thought that he did this to himself.  As low as he feels, he needs that affirmation from Jack that Jack still wants him and will still meet him in November.  That's the ONLY good thing in Ennis's life. Hope this makes sense.

[CrimsonSky]

I think Ennis did subconsciously try to push Jack away to make him leave him, because he was so scared he was going to lose him anyway. Ennis has lost people close to him his whole life:his parents, his brother and sister, then later Alma and his daughters, he probably felt it was only a matter of time before he lost Jack too, and subconsciously was trying to not prolong the agony, get it over with. When Jack says "I wish I knew how to quit you", Ennis hits back with "Well why don't you?", as if Jack's words are just confirmation of what he's been expecting all along. If Ennis really wanted to end it, he would've done so himself, Jack's confession about Mexico was a perfect excuse to finish it there and then if that's what he wanted, but of course it's not what he wants at all. And deep down he knows Jack wouldn't quit him, so it's "safe" for him to say that. Part of Ennis knew that Jack loved him unconditionally and would never leave him no matter what, but because he'd been abandoned so many times in the past he couldn't allow himself to be totally secure of Jack's love, and he needed to push Jack away to prove that Jack would never go.
Ahdunno...just thinking out loud...this topic is giving me a lot of food for thought

[lamusica]

I agree, crimson sky.  Ennis needed to see what Jack would do given the opportunity to leave.  He needed Jack's love; it was all he had left.