Topic: If Ennis knew Randall was moving in on Jack, how would he react?

[tpe]

Could it even be that if he knew about Randall, after the immediate reaction, which mught be fury, jealousy, whatever, Ennis might actually, and perhaps secretly, feel some sense of relief? Not that he wanted to be without Jack but that all the conflicts and demands would come to an end if Jack and he were no longer in the same relationship.

And going on from that, could they have moved into a non-sexual relationship aand remained friends? It's possible, specially if you live a long way apart anyway.

This is what I was thinking.  Is there a part of Ennis who wanted things to be this way? 

Could some of you see this?

[manhattangirl]

This is what I was thinking.  Is there a part of Ennis who wanted things to be this way? 

Could some of you see this?

IMO:

The love and desire, Ennis had or Jack outweighted the conflict and demands. Ennis was willing to endure the hardships that relationship brought both of them to still have Jack.   He was used to hardship, doing without.  Jack was not used to this, if  he couldn't have Ennis, he'd go to Mexico.  That is why Randall becomes a factor and a strong one.  This could tip the scale of this relationship in a way Alma and Cassie couldn't. 

A nonsexual relationship is not possible any more, that possibility ended SNIT and the years of  the intimate
life they shared together.  Wounds real or image run too deep, the trust, the need, the love and the sex all too intense, binding.   And Ennis more than Jack, would have a hard time with this, like the reunion, Ennis couldn't control himself when he saw Jack, and I don't think Jack would stop him.   

[tpe]

It is always heard to move on in a relationship, and this is why I had thought that Jack's decision might have been something that also hurt him deeply.  Thre more so with Ennis, since he had not made this descision consciously.  If part of him wanted out, it probably was balanced out by the overriding need to be apart of Jack's life, no matter how small.  But I recognize that it never be just a friendship.  They had gone in too deeply with one another, and I also cannot see it settling into something aloof and nonsexual. 

But I still wonder...  Perhaps Jack's decision to move on would have made Ennis make a second mistake of marrying Cassie.   Or would it have pushed Ennis to go back into the closet, shall we say?

[welshwitch]

I don't know about marrying Cassie, though she was obviously pretty committed to Ennis. But I do think he'd have gone back into the closet never to emerge again if Jack had left him.

[tpe]

I don't know about marrying Cassie, though she was obviously pretty committed to Ennis. But I do think he'd have gone back into the closet never to emerge again if Jack had left him.

Would he have done this as part of an attempted repudiation of Jack and everything he supoosedly stood for?  I doubt that he would be that successful, but the way he ended up at the end of the movie was pretty close to this, no?  Except that his opening up to Alma Jr. hinted on a bit of hope for his future.

I guess the main point is that Ennis would have imploded had Jack left him -- i.e., withdraw further into himself.

[welshwitch]

If Jack had abandoned Ennis for Randall, and possibly set up on a ranch with him, I think Ennis would have thought the equivalent of "Game over" and given up, as indeed he was forced to at the end of the movie. His opening up to Alma Jr was a proof of his greater emotional openness but doesn't tell us anything about his acceptance ( or lack of it) of his own sexuality.

[manhattangirl]

IMO:

Ennis would have definately emotionally implode.   There's no getting around that.  Ennis was too emotionally fragile to be able to stand that outcome. 

Death is the ending you have to deal with.  But if Jack just went to Randall, Ennis would have not or could not handle this.  We've seen Ennis make great pronouncements of how things were to go, how his affair with Jack was to conducted, where, when, etc. but he could never follow his own rules, he broke under the weight of them.     He would say to Jack  "to hell with you" and then quitely, alone, way out in the middle of nowhere and fall apart. 

And like tpe impies, withdraw into himself. 

[tpe]

IMO:

Ennis would have definately emotionally implode.   There's no getting around that.  Ennis was too emotionally fragile to be able to stand that outcome. 

Death is the ending you have to deal with.  But if Jack just went to Randall, Ennis would have not or could not handle this.  We've seen Ennis make great pronouncements of how things were to go, how his affair with Jack was to conducted, where, when, etc. but he could never follow his own rules, he broke under the weight of them.     He would say to Jack  "to hell with you" and then quitely, alone, way out in the middle of nowhere and fall apart. 

And like tpe impies, withdraw into himself. 

If he would have reacted this way and if Jack realized this, I wonder if Jack would have had the will and desire proceed with his plans.  Could he have borne seeing Ennis this way?  If Jack would have seen how Ennis mourned for him... 

My feeling is that what saved them in the last meeting was that Jack could not bear to see Ennis crumble before his eyes.  Had Jack lived and had Ennis sought him out, could Jack have resisted, when he knows that Ennis would have been completely devastated?

[manhattangirl]

If he would have reacted this way and if Jack realized this, I wonder if Jack would have had the will and desire proceed with his plans.  Could he have borne seeing Ennis this way?  If Jack would have seen how Ennis mourned for him... 

My feeling is that what saved them in the last meeting was that Jack could not bear to see Ennis crumble before his eyes.  Had Jack lived and had Ennis sought him out, could Jack have resisted, when he knows that Ennis would have been completely devastated?

 tpe,  you ask this question with a condition.    Could Jack resist Ennis, knowing this would devastate him. First Ennis even going to Texas is a feat.     WOW, if this not a loaded question.   The only way I could answer this is that Jack had to get to a point after twenty years of Ennis,  if his own self preservation is more important to him then knowing his rejection of Ennis could destroy him.   This may be a cold move, but it comes down to one thing, you  have to know when to save your own life.

[aintfoolin]

It would also be cold if Jack just let Ennis *stew for a while . I agree with you MG. If Jack could show Ennis in some way that he was not gonna just sit around wringing his hands and waiting, wishing and hoping. maybe he'll  get an answer to his devastating dilema. He knows that he has to make life happen.  But he knows Ennis's past and does'nt want to be the one opening old wounds for him, Did'nt want to be the one rejecting Ennis and having Ennis crawl back inside his little cocoon. He loved him too much to do that. yet, no one is getting any younger here. Goodness knows Jack has suffered some doozys in the rejection department here. It is now his turn. His time. It's not that he wants it this way but it's his choice now. He loves Ennis, He's waited almost 20 years for a progression of this relationship.  Some say "all is fair in love and war" but this hurts. I think this is where Jack was at when he laid Ennis out with words in that last meeting. He had spared Ennis a sense of reponsibility for too long. Sought Ennis out after 4 years apart,Knew his fears, his rsponsibilites to his children. Braved Alma, drove thousands of miles year after lonely year just to have a little peice of time with the man he loved so deeply. and what does he get? a few high altitude f--cks a couple times a year? No no Jack deserved so much more than this . Though he loved Ennis and no doubt always will, but  Jack found *more bulls to ride*, more fish in the sea, so to speak. and just happened upon one who wanted him, all of him and gave Jack ,for once ,the choice to accept or reject.  Again, I cannot find blame for what Jack did. I agree it took death to wake Ennis up but why? He had to realize before he found those shirts that Jack had done his part. He'd left no doubts about the way he felt about Ennis. Just as Ennis felt Jack belonged to him alone concerning Mexico, Jack expected the same strong sense of commitment from Ennis.  To their love affair. If they were in love and Ennis has said aint no reins on this one ..ONE being Jack and the one relationship, ONE love, then what the heck is Jack to think when Ennis won't make a permanant life with him?  Comon Ennis actions speak louder than words in this case,There never is going to be another love like this for Ennis  am I correct?  Randall would have been, with time and patience. What would Ennis say if Jack told Ennis ( in a letter form  for safety concerns!)" I love you more than anything , you know that.  we can't go on hurting each other like this. I've made my feelings known. You know what I want for us. If you can't bring yourself to do this with me Ennis then I feel  we  have  no choice but to move on with our lives. Try to find happiness with someone else.  I can't stand this anymore either.  Don't  ever wanna hurt you and I'll always love you but these separations just hurts both of us too much.  Ennis, I've met someone else, nothing serious yet, but  well it could be......etc. Then see what Ennis does then. It would speak volumes. Just a tool for Jack to use to get answers.... maybe the one he wants.  To hear Jack actually say it, and to know there is someone waiting in the wings to take over where he left off just might do the trick. Sorry so long but the passion over takes me. My thoughts.

[manhattangirl]

No, No, no apologies needed, I feel the same way, but why shouldn't Jack look out for him self, look twenty years of loving someone becomes a part of you, like your arm, or leg.   But when it comes a time when it has to be cut off in order to save your life, what would be the right choice?  You learn to adjust to the loss and move on, and live.

You're right they are not getting younger, and Jack's has someone, Randall,  who looks interested in a life and love, without the constant battle of commitment.  Randall seems to prize Jack, and his love without the fear that hung over Jack and Ennis. 

And why should Ennis reaction should always come into play.   Jack has to look out for Jack.   He gave all of  his life to Ennis.   Ennis was so caught up in his own hangs up, to notice what Jack wanted to give him, and if he did, it still wasn't enough for him to change. 

Jack would be skiddish with Ennis, he wouldn't be able to trust totally his commitment to him, this is where Ennis has to do the work build trust in Jack, can he do it, how long would it take for the old fears kick in again?.   After all Ennis did have a low startle point.

IMO.   

[tpe]

tpe,  you ask this question with a condition.    Could Jack resist Ennis, knowing this would devastate him. First Ennis even going to Texas is a feat.     WOW, if this not a loaded question.   The only way I could answer this is that Jack had to get to a point after twenty years of Ennis,  if his own self preservation is more important to him then knowing his rejection of Ennis could destroy him.   This may be a cold move, but it comes down to one thing, you  have to know when to save your own life.

Thanks manhattangirl and aintfoolin for sharing your thoughts about this.

I did think that Jack had made up his "mind" to make a separate peace.  But as far as the "heart" is concerned, I am less sure that he was that determined.  It still naggs me: the likeliness that Jack would cave in if he comes face to face with an emotionally devastated Ennis.

[aintfoolin]

Exactly MG, Why should Jack have to walk on eggshells for the rest of his life with/or without Ennis , Ennis feelings I'm sure would be taken into consideration , but Jack should not have to consider how Ennis feels about this and that every time Jack makes a major life changing decision. J ack has to get to that point somehow *weaning* himself off of Ennis's control. Probably pinch himself to make sure that he is free to make his own choices as he's been dancing to Ennis's music for SO long. Hopefully he will have thought all this through and weighed the consequences for his actions , before hooking up with Randall, then come to a solid conclusion about who and what he, himself alone wants. Maybe he'll choose neither and have his own ranch. I'd like to see his happiness count, but sadly we never will. Does'nt stop us from dreaming about what could have been though. Again it is his decision to make and no one else's. He's the one who has to live with the decision. Not easy mind you,.. but possible.

[tpe]

It would also be cold if Jack just let Ennis *stew for a while . I agree with you MG. If Jack could show Ennis in some way that he was not gonna just sit around wringing his hands and waiting, wishing and hoping. maybe he'll  get an answer to his devastating dilema. He knows that he has to make life happen.  But he knows Ennis's past and does'nt want to be the one opening old wounds for him, Did'nt want to be the one rejecting Ennis and having Ennis crawl back inside his little cocoon. He loved him too much to do that. yet, no one is getting any younger here. Goodness knows Jack has suffered some doozys in the rejection department here. It is now his turn. His time. It's not that he wants it this way but it's his choice now. He loves Ennis, He's waited almost 20 years for a progression of this relationship.  Some say "all is fair in love and war" but this hurts. I think this is where Jack was at when he laid Ennis out with words in that last meeting. He had spared Ennis a sense of reponsibility for too long. Sought Ennis out after 4 years apart,Knew his fears, his rsponsibilites to his children. Braved Alma, drove thousands of miles year after lonely year just to have a little peice of time with the man he loved so deeply. and what does he get? a few high altitude f--cks a couple times a year? No no Jack deserved so much more than this . Though he loved Ennis and no doubt always will, but  Jack found *more bulls to ride*, more fish in the sea, so to speak. and just happened upon one who wanted him, all of him and gave Jack ,for once ,the choice to accept or reject.  Again, I cannot find blame for what Jack did. I agree it took death to wake Ennis up but why? He had to realize before he found those shirts that Jack had done his part. He'd left no doubts about the way he felt about Ennis. Just as Ennis felt Jack belonged to him alone concerning Mexico, Jack expected the same strong sense of commitment from Ennis.  To their love affair. If they were in love and Ennis has said aint no reins on this one ..ONE being Jack and the one relationship, ONE love, then what the heck is Jack to think when Ennis won't make a permanant life with him?  Comon Ennis actions speak louder than words in this case,There never is going to be another love like this for Ennis  am I correct?  Randall would have been, with time and patience. What would Ennis say if Jack told Ennis ( in a letter form  for safety concerns!)" I love you more than anything , you know that.  we can't go on hurting each other like this. I've made my feelings known. You know what I want for us. If you can't bring yourself to do this with me Ennis then I feel  we  have  no choice but to move on with our lives. Try to find happiness with someone else.  I can't stand this anymore either.  Don't  ever wanna hurt you and I'll always love you but these separations just hurts both of us too much.  Ennis, I've met someone else, nothing serious yet, but  well it could be......etc. Then see what Ennis does then. It would speak volumes. Just a tool for Jack to use to get answers.... maybe the one he wants.  To hear Jack actually say it, and to know there is someone waiting in the wings to take over where he left off just might do the trick. Sorry so long but the passion over takes me. My thoughts.

I do agree that there is a seeming finality with Jack's decision to move on -- as if to tell Ennis that he himself would have to act in order for things to stay together.

But I cannot help feeling trhis to be a last despearate cry of help from Jack.  AS discussed elsewhere, perhaps Jack wanted to force Ennis into a decision.  

But I think hidden underneath all this is the felling that Jack did this half hoping that Ennis would not let him go away.  This is why I feel that Jack may have made up his "mind" on what has to be done, and yet the "heart" many times does not follow where the "mind" leads.

[welshwitch]

In a way it's a pity Jack didn't go ahead with part of his plans and leave Lureen, get a divorce and set up on his father's land or somewhere else. After that at least Ennis would see that Jack was free of his entanglement with Lureen as he( Ennis) had been of his with Alma. Alma Jr was an adult and the other girl almost so - at that point Ennis could have had a straight decision to make. That scenario, of course, would have involved Jack in cutting himself free of everyone, including Randall, and leaving himself dependent on Ennis's choice, perhaps a step too far for him?

[pierralex]

I don't think Jack would have been able to leave Lureen to set up on his father's land. Aside from Randdal, it's because he is a sociable type, I think he needs to be with someone, to live with someone. Even if it's Lureen (at least she brings money and a materially comfortable life). I don't think he would have taken the risk to go back to live with his father (especially knowing how is his father), without being sure that Ennis would have come with him. Moreover we know that he used to say that he would comme with Ennis to his parents ranch, so coming alone would have make his father treating him like a looser even more. And I don't think Jack wanted it.

[manhattangirl]

tpe, ainfoolin,

Thanks so much for your thoughts you got thinking.  It may prove true for someone in this situation like Jack and Ennis, that no matter what happened between them that the love though never verbally expressed definitely exsisted.  But concerning our discussion Ennis would have to understand that  Randall  even Jack's trips to Mexico was a  direct result of his stubbornness  for not moving the relationship to the next step after twenty years.    Ainfoolin you're right about Jack's proof of his love for staying in this affair for so long, following the rules Ennis put down, Jack always went to him, loved him, and return back Texas, until Ennis wanted him again.

Jack had come to a point, when he said "I wish I knew how to quit you",   Ennis had to understand that it was time to change, he couldn't continue to have Jack on these terms, Ennis had to decide, and Jack not returning to Brokeback is the only way for Ennis to realize what he had and what he lost.

Ennis going to Jack, actually gettin in that beat up truck and driving there, would have shown to himself that his only fear was not being found out, but not having Jack again.   Jack would have seen for the first time just how much this man loved him, Ennis was there on his door step, with his hat in his hand. 

Maybe just maybe, this would have been enough for Jack.   Jack could never turn Ennis away, this would have made it impossible.

[tpe]

I don't think Jack would have been able to leave Lureen to set up on his father's land. Aside from Randdal, it's because he is a sociable type, I think he needs to be with someone, to live with someone. Even if it's Lureen (at least she brings money and a materially comfortable life). I don't think he would have taken the risk to go back to live with his father (especially knowing how is his father), without being sure that Ennis would have come with him. Moreover we know that he used to say that he would comme with Ennis to his parents ranch, so coming alone would have make his father treating him like a looser even more. And I don't think Jack wanted it.

That is a good point: it would seem that Jack needed to be with someone, and that perhaps his return to LF was dependent on someone coming back with him. 

Jack's intention to a move to LF with Randall should send a clear message to Ennis: that Jack would not abide to live without his dream of a life with someone he can love and be loved in return.  Perhpas Jack had hoped that Ennis's reaction would be tempered by understanding how important this was to Jack, and so Jack perhaps had hoped that Ennis would finally give in when he realizes that losing Jack was a possibility.

Could Jack have calculated all this?  He must have anticipated a number of reactions from Ennis, and he probably concluded that this was the best way to make Ennis realize that the sweet life was not something he would compromise on for the rest of his life.

[tpe]

tpe, ainfoolin,

Thanks so much for your thoughts you got thinking.  It may prove true for someone in this situation like Jack and Ennis, that no matter what happened between them that the love though never verbally expressed definitely exsisted.  But concerning our discussion Ennis would have to understand that  Randall  even Jack's trips to Mexico was a  direct result of his stubbornness  for not moving the relationship to the next step after twenty years.    Ainfoolin you're right about Jack's proof of his love for staying in this affair for so long, following the rules Ennis put down, Jack always went to him, loved him, and return back Texas, until Ennis wanted him again.

Jack had come to a point, when he said "I wish I knew how to quit you",   Ennis had to understand that it was time to change, he couldn't continue to have Jack on these terms, Ennis had to decide, and Jack not returning to Brokeback is the only way for Ennis to realize what he had and what he lost.

Ennis going to Jack, actually gettin in that beat up truck and driving there, would have shown to himself that his only fear was not being found out, but not having Jack again.   Jack would have seen for the first time just how much this man loved him, Ennis was there on his door step, with his hat in his hand. 

Maybe just maybe, this would have been enough for Jack.   Jack could never turn Ennis away, this would have made it impossible.

Thanks manhattangirl .  I think you confirmed the central point of my last post: that Jack was trying to make Ennis understand that the choice was his to make.  Eliciting a reaction from Ennis by taking the extreme step of moving on with someone else was Jack's intenst, IMO.  I guess Jack didn't care eny more what shape or form this reaction may take -- he NEEDED Ennis to react in order to make Ennis himself understand what was at stake because of his stubbornness.