Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: August7th on Dec 01, 2008, 04:23 PM
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There's a passage in Gone With the Wind (the book) that is interesting when considering the final scene between Jack and Ennis. Near the end of that book, Scarlett has finally decided that she does love Rhett after all, but he is no longer interested. He says to her, " . . . Scarlett, did it ever occur to you that even the most deathless love could wear out? . . . Mine wore out against Ashley Wilkes and your insane obstinacy that makes you hold on like a bulldog to anything you think you want. Mine wore out."
Thus, Rhett can "quit" Scarlett and truly not give a damn what she does or where she goes. I don't believe that Jack had reached that point. But the fact that he would vocalize a desire to "quit" Ennis makes me wonder -- although his love for Ennis was a once-in-a-lifetime love, was that love wearing out?
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Hello August7th, and welcome to thwe forum.
I think that as far as Jack was concerned, it was the hope for a sweet life that eroded in the end. But I don't think it was Jack's love for Ennis that wore out. There is a big difference, would you agree? In real life, we sometimes encounter someone we dearly love and persist in trying to make things work, even though it becomes clear early on that there are difficulties in making the relationship work. If you have gone through the same thing, perhaps you reached a point when you despaired of the relationship and decided to quit trying and move on. But in some of those cases, won't you agree with me that the love you have for the person persists long after you have lost hope?
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Hello August7th, and welcome to thwe forum.
I think that as far as Jack was concerned, it was the hope for a sweet life that eroded in the end. But I don't think it was Jack's love for Ennis that wore out. There is a big difference, would you agree? In real life, we sometimes encounter someone we dearly love and persist in trying to make things work, even though it becomes clear early on that there are difficulties in making the relationship work. If you have gone through the same thing, perhaps you reached a point when you despaired of the relationship and decided to quit trying and move on. But in some of those cases, won't you agree with me that the love you have for the person persists long after you have lost hope?
Good point tpe, but I wonder whether the love erodes along with the hope if you blame the other person for the situation. In the short story, Jack's tone during their last meeting is described as "bitter and accusatory."
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Hey there August7th, welcome.
Have to agree with Thomas here. I’m not sure Jack even thought of it as “love”. As has been discussed many times, neither of ‘em ever utters this simple phrase. Jack says he wishes he could “quit you”, but to me this is more an admission that he can’t quit. Like smokers who say “I wish I could quit . . .”. He also reveals that he still misses Ennis so much sometimes that “I can hardly stand it”.
Sounds like it's the dream that wore out, maybe his love of the dream, the dream of a sweet life. After nearly 20 years I think he sees that he an’ Ennis are “it”, start to finish it’s gonna be with this guy. Good, bad, for better or worse, part of the deal he struck when he sent that postcard in ‘67. Know some may disagree, JMHO.
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I think that Jack DID know it was love right away. I don't think he would've taken & kept Ennis' shirt all those yrs., otherwise. He knew Ennis couldn't "handle" those 3 words that he longed to whisper in his ear. <^(
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20 years is a long time and Jack's patience regarding the situation had definitely worn thin and he was frustrated at Ennis' inability to budge an inch. But he never stopped loving him, Ennis was his whole world and nobody could ever take his place. I think if Jack would have lived he would have kept trying to make it work, just like Scarlett in GWTW said at the end of that movie, "tomorrow is another day."
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Wow, August7th! #$# What a great thread! Thank you for asking this question.
I've never read Gone with the Wind, but I love the movie. I am glad the book explained Rhett's line because I have always felt it was too abrupt and heartless. I didn't think it fitted with Rhett's love for Scarlett. Now, with the explanation about wearing out, I can see that it makes sense.
Rhett loved Scarlett, but his love was unrequited for a long time. It was always someone else, or something else. Scarlett never devoted her love to Rhett until the very end, and by that time, he was worn out...by the lack of affection, the lies, the .... There was little upside for Rhett, and a whole lot of downside.
I think the situation is not at all the same for Ennis and Jack. Although Ennis was impossibly rigid when it comes to shacking up with Jack, sharing his dream of a cow and calf operation, there is no doubt in Jack's mind, that they share something special.
As mentioned by others, he kept the two-shirts for twenty years. He cried driving away that summer of '63. He was thrilled to be re-united with Ennis. He was surprised by the intensity of Ennis kissing him. He was happy in the motel, by the river, ..., any time he was with Ennis. It's why he could hardly standing it, missing Ennis so much. It is not unrequited love...it is mutual love, shared and felt...there's no rein on this one.
It is true, however, that by the final confrontation, Jack was sick and tired of Ennis' inability to commit. He needed more, and he was willing to negotiate with Ennis if necessary. But Ennis was unable to budge.
I am not sure if Jack's love was worn out. I think he still loved Ennis deeply, and would do anything to be with Ennis, but he also recognized, and out of love for Ennis, accepted the impossibility of their situation. Jack was willing to leave broken hearted, when Ennis said in tears, in his arms, "I can't take this no more, Jack."
The genius of Ang Lee was to juxtaposition the brokenhearted gaze of Jack watching Ennis driving off, with the loving longing gaze of the younger Jack watching Ennis riding off after the dozy embrace.
No, I don't think, in my humble opinion, that Jack's love was worn out at the final confrontation. If anything, the love between them was finally confronted as such, although still not verbalized, so that Jack knew it as he gazed brokenhearted, and Ennis was awoken to it, when Cassie told him at the diner, "Girls don't fall in love with fun."
Whew...thanks for asking the question, and getting me to revisit the intense final confrontation again with fresh new perspective.
Welcome to the forum, August7th, and I hope to hear from you again and again. :ghug: :c) ^f^
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Hey August7th..Welome for the forum Brokie.. :)
I personally think that Jacks’s love would never wear out even if he wanted to..In the final confrontation when he told Ennis that he felt sidelined and he got frustrated and mentioned his wish to quit. He used the word “I wish” because he himself knew that he would not be able to quit Ennis…all those years he held onto him..20 years is a long time and even though the distances came between them due to lack of communication and meetings or Ennis's fear, Jack and Ennis never left each other’s side…that is the biggest evidence to their undying love...Neither of them could quit from each other…Infact in the final scene when Ennis hugs the shirts its shows us that Jack kept the love alive for so many years and in the final scene we felt Jack’s presence..As told by atalley Jack kept the shirts for so many years and when Ennis hugs those shorts in the last scene Ennis is too submerged in Jack’s love…It so so very present around that room consoling Ennis :\'(
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Good thread! O0 :t)
I (as expected) agree with all of you who said that his love was immense. Nothing and no one could make Jack's love fade away. That's why I like that character so very much!
The very nature of DE (comfort, confession, support, understanding...) is a proof of how much they felt for each other at that very moment - and forever!
Ennis <^( Jack
Jack <^( Ennis
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Ennis <^( Jack
Jack <^( Ennis
Loreen, the sound of this is so soothing to my ears..makes me rejoice
Thanks dear ^f^ :)
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Loreen, the sound of this is so soothing to my ears..makes me rejoice
Thanks dear ^f^ :)
Dear Cleo :ghug: :^^)
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Good point tpe, but I wonder whether the love erodes along with the hope if you blame the other person for the situation. In the short story, Jack's tone during their last meeting is described as "bitter and accusatory."
It is very probable. But reading Proulx's description of the Dozy Embrace as Jack's own thoughts after all this, I sense that this is not the case here.
What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger. ...Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."
-- Proulx, Brokeback Mountain.
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I want to agree that Jack's love for Ennis wasn't "wearing out" even if his dream of living with Ennis was. But, on the other hand, why did Jack tell his father he was planning on leaving his wife and moving back to Lightning Flat with a ranch neighbor from Texas? As I understand the timeline of the story, he makes that statement while visiting his parents immediately after his confrontation with Ennis.
I'd like to hear your views on this issue. I wager, though, that it has been discussed on another thread, so feel free to point me in that direction if that's more appropriate.
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I want to agree that Jack's love for Ennis wasn't "wearing out" even if his dream of living with Ennis was. But, on the other hand, why did Jack tell his father he was planning on leaving his wife and moving back to Lightning Flat with a ranch neighbor from Texas? As I understand the timeline of the story, he makes that statement while visiting his parents immediately after his confrontation with Ennis.
I'd like to hear your views on this issue. I wager, though, that it has been discussed on another thread, so feel free to point me in that direction if that's more appropriate.
Hi! :)
IMO (maybe some other Brokies disagree :*( ) he said it not because that other guy, presumably Randall, would really go to live to LF, but rather because Jack was hurt, or he thought that his 20 years old words about plan to get Ennis there already sounded funny, as Ennis was not coming. Maybe he wanted to be more convincing to his oldman who disrespected him.
It could be anything, but giving up on Ennis. I firmly believe that!
I wrote this post in a hurry, so maybe i did not explain it the best... later... ^f^
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August7th, the comment by the old man about the Texan ranch neighbour is indeed puzzling. We don't know for certain the circumstances that prompted the exchange. There are a number of possibilities.
I think Jack's love for Ennis would never get worn out. If he lived, and received Ennis' post card to meet in November, Jack would redline his truck and be there, with bells on.
The relationship between the old man and Jack is one of domination and love/hate. The old man takes every opportunity to dominate Jack, and bully him into submission, into showing Jack who is boss. Jack, on the one hand craves the respect and love from his father, but also hate and despise the cruel and heartless behavior. His mention of Ennis for twenty years, in my opinion, was an expression of his dream, his wish, that it would be so. That spring, after the final confrontation, and having his heart broken, Jack was confronted by the old man, probably in a sneer with a spit, "So how about that Ennis, when is he coming up here to whip us into shape?" I have no doubt that in a moment of anguish and spiteful hatred poisoned by the old man, Jack retorted with a new partner. I doubt there would have been anything happening with Randall. The guy was just playing with Jack (he had a rich wife, was a vet with a good job) and Jack was just playing along as a substitute for Ennis, and a closer drive than Mexico. As others have said, Jack's remarks in the final confrontation was telling in so many ways.
"I wish I could quit you."
"You have no idea how bad it gets."
"...the short leash you keep me on..."
These are not remarks of a love worn out, but a love desperate for fulfillment, yearning to be closer, to be more.
"Never enough time."
As he stared brokenhearted while Ennis drove off, Jack was waiting for Ennis to turn around, and say, let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.
Jack would have jumped up and said I do.
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Welcome August7th. What a great subject for a thread. :)
I love all the answers I’ve seen to this and agree with most of what has been said. The quote from GWTW is a good one, but I don’t think the analogy fits because the issues between Rhett and Scarlett were not ones of outside influence on the relationship, but rather Scarlett’s own obsessive affection for someone else. There is no doubt to any of us, and I suspect to Jack either, that Ennis loves Jack. It is the pressures of the unforgiving world they live in and the bleak lessons that Ennis has learned in his life that make him unable to commit to that sweet life with Jack.
I do think the quote fits though because I have seen how even a very deep love can ‘wear out’ after years of disappointments, frustrations and hurt feelings. I tend to think that what kept Jack from crossing into that territory was the knowledge that Ennis was as bound by his defensive barriers (and therefore on just as short a leash) as Jack was. So through all the hurt and all the years of loneliness, he still had the core love to hold onto. And his ability to cling to that (which is even shown in his reflection of the DE - let be, let be) is what kept his love alive and from wearing out.
Andrew, I also believe that had he lived, Jack would have been there in November. The SS makes it clear that when they parted, things had been "torqued back almost to where they had been" and that nothing had changed.
As to your impression of what Jack was thinking as Ennis drove away, I’m assuming that was somewhat tongue in cheek.
“As he stared brokenhearted while Ennis drove off, Jack was waiting for Ennis to turn around, and say, let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.
Jack would have jumped up and said I do.”
I will certainly agree that what Jack always wanted and hoped for was for Ennis to say that he wanted to make a life together. That was clear from the first time he said “It could be like this, just like this, always” to the final confrontation when he said “We could’ve had a good life together…..but you didn’t want it…”
I don’t think that he was even remotely thinking about sex in that moment. As it says in Thomas’ quote from the SS, it was that “shared and sexless hunger” that he craved. As “brilliant as the charge from their infrequent coupling was“, it was the life together, their joined hearts, the chance to spend ordinary days together as a couple that filled Jack’s wishes.
And I’m floundering over the idea that either one of them would ever have suggested that either of them should assume the role of “wife.” It was this use of such a stereotypical misconception that got me thinking “Ah, this part is tongue in cheek.” I’m assuming your point is that even after expressing such disappointments and declaring that he “wishes” he could quit Ennis, had Ennis turned around and said “Ok, let’s try to make a life together,” Jack would still have jumped at the chance. And on that score, I would agree. I just get uncomfortable any time I hear those gender assignments in referring to same sex relationships. And there was certainly never any hint at that dynamic between these two characters.
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Yup, FlwrChild, you know me well. I love the humor between Ennis and Jack. The hardest part of the last confrontation was the total lack of humor.
I wish that Ennis DID turn around, and did all that I wrote for him to say to Jack. And the two run off to live their lives together. Sex or no sex, their love is endless.
^f^
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August7th, the comment by the old man about the Texan ranch neighbour is indeed puzzling. We don't know for certain the circumstances that prompted the exchange. There are a number of possibilities.
I think Jack's love for Ennis would never get worn out. If he lived, and received Ennis' post card to meet in November, Jack would redline his truck and be there, with bells on.
The relationship between the old man and Jack is one of domination and love/hate. The old man takes every opportunity to dominate Jack, and bully him into submission, into showing Jack who is boss. Jack, on the one hand craves the respect and love from his father, but also hate and despise the cruel and heartless behavior. His mention of Ennis for twenty years, in my opinion, was an expression of his dream, his wish, that it would be so. That spring, after the final confrontation, and having his heart broken, Jack was confronted by the old man, probably in a sneer with a spit, "So how about that Ennis, when is he coming up here to whip us into shape?" I have no doubt that in a moment of anguish and spiteful hatred poisoned by the old man, Jack retorted with a new partner. I doubt there would have been anything happening with Randall. The guy was just playing with Jack (he had a rich wife, was a vet with a good job) and Jack was just playing along as a substitute for Ennis, and a closer drive than Mexico. As others have said, Jack's remarks in the final confrontation was telling in so many ways.
"I wish I could quit you."
"You have no idea how bad it gets."
"...the short leash you keep me on..."
These are not remarks of a love worn out, but a love desperate for fulfillment, yearning to be closer, to be more.
"Never enough time."
As he stared brokenhearted while Ennis drove off, Jack was waiting for Ennis to turn around, and say, let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.
Jack would have jumped up and said I do.
Lance :c) ,
you're so right here! And the details you explained are O0! <^(
:^^)
I extremely dislike John Twist for complete lack of understanding and respect for his only son. And that goes from Jack's childhood. So Jack just had to have some story to justify himself, to make the oldgoat ^*) accept his ideas! Uh! ^^)
$)
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Yup, FlwrChild, you know me well. I love the humor between Ennis and Jack. The hardest part of the last confrontation was the total lack of humor.
I wish that Ennis DID turn around, and did all that I wrote for him to say to Jack. And the two run off to live their lives together. Sex or no sex, their love is endless.
^f^
It is indeed. :c)
So you meant that Ennis should have said that in a joking manner then. I think I understand. I don't see that ever happening though, as much as they used to kid around. For one thing, that wouldn't have been a humorous moment. Had Ennis turned around and taken such a huge step, it would have taken an agonizing effort on his part and they both would have been stone cold serious. Happy, but serious. And I still think that Jack would have knocked him on his ass if he'd ever tried to get a comment like that by him.
I would love to see them take that serious moment though and set them on the road to that life together. One that would allow them to recapture those humorous moments and all of the happier, carefree ones they were denied as the years wore on.
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It is indeed. :c)
So you meant that Ennis should have said that in a joking manner then. I think I understand. I don't see that ever happening though, as much as they used to kid around. For one thing, that wouldn't have been a humorous moment. Had Ennis turned around and taken such a huge step, it would have taken an agonizing effort on his part and they both would have been stone cold serious. Happy, but serious. And I still think that Jack would have knocked him on his ass if he'd ever tried to get a comment like that by him.
I would love to see them take that serious moment though and set them on the road to that life together. One that would allow them to recapture those humorous moments and all of the happier, carefree ones they were denied as the years wore on.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc126%2Flancecowboy%2Fbrokeback%2F2000676691852911849_rs.jpg&hash=092b48c61302c52d09feada27f386c4933f6cbdb)
ENNIS: Sorry, Jack, I see what you mean. It gets so bad I can hardly stand it. I've quit the little waitress in Riverton. Let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.
JACK: You take that back. I wear the pants, and I have a mustache, with a big silver belt buckle. You better not act queer around my folks. My Ma is cool, but the old man will beat you silly.
ENNIS: Oh, yeah? I ain't afraid of you or your old man. Want to settle it right here, huh, cowboy? See who's on top?
JACK: ... You never let me be on top. :(
ENNIS: Aw...come here, little darling. :ghug: :^^) :c)
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Now you're just playing with me. %( ;D
Meant to say earlier also that I liked the explanations from you and loreen about Randall. I completely agree with you both. ^f^
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ENNIS: Sorry, Jack, I see what you mean. It gets so bad I can hardly stand it. I've quit the little waitress in Riverton. Let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.
JACK: You take that back. I wear the pants, and I have a mustache, with a big silver belt buckle. You better not act queer around my folks. My Ma is cool, but the old man will beat you silly.
ENNIS: Oh, yeah? I ain't afraid of you or your old man. Want to settle it right here, huh, cowboy? See who's on top?
JACK: ... You never let me be on top. :(
ENNIS: Aw...come here, little darling. :ghug: :^^) :c)
OMG, is it always about who's gonna be on top??? I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with these problems! #)
Anyway, I LIKED "little darling" in the last sentence.... <^( <^( <^(
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author=lancecowboy link=topic=14829.msg859103#msg859103 date=1228345493]
ENNIS: Sorry, Jack, I see what you mean. It gets so bad I can hardly stand it. I've quit the little waitress in Riverton. Let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.
JACK: You take that back. I wear the pants, and I have a mustache, with a big silver belt buckle. You better not act queer around my folks. My Ma is cool, but the old man will beat you silly.
ENNIS: Oh, yeah? I ain't afraid of you or your old man. Want to settle it right here, huh, cowboy? See who's on top?
JACK: ... You never let me be on top. :(
ENNIS: Aw...come here, little darling. :ghug: :^^) :c)
Thanks so much for this Lancecowboy ^f^ ....You brought a smile to my face... :)
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OMG, is it always about who's gonna be on top??? I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with these problems! #)
Nah, with just a little creativity you figure out how you both can be on top (course not at the same time!).
Andrew, your caption was hilarious, but shouldn't it be over there in the "Pawning" section?
Getting far OT here . . . .
Great analysis FC. At that point it wasn't about the sex, Jack just wanted to feel wanted.
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Great analysis FC. At that point it wasn't about the sex, Jack just wanted to feel wanted.
I think that Jack's empty childhood with an abusive father formed him to a person who wanted to feel wanted and loved all his life. FC maybe just emphasized it! This makes Jack so attractive to anyone who has enough love inside his soul (me included). Ennis got that huge love for Jack, but also so many fears to pull him back from the most precious thing in his life. Gee, I manage to make myself sad again. :\'(
Let's talk top and down , that's more relaxing! :*(
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I want to agree that Jack's love for Ennis wasn't "wearing out" even if his dream of living with Ennis was. But, on the other hand, why did Jack tell his father he was planning on leaving his wife and moving back to Lightning Flat with a ranch neighbor from Texas? As I understand the timeline of the story, he makes that statement while visiting his parents immediately after his confrontation with Ennis.
I'd like to hear your views on this issue. I wager, though, that it has been discussed on another thread, so feel free to point me in that direction if that's more appropriate.
Because he had given up hope that he can convince Ennis to live with him. Isn't this common with many people who love somebody but find out that they would never be able to live together? It could be family objections that the other person is unwilling to disobey, for example. This one is VERY common. They move on, or try to move on. For some of them, they only succeed in making their life miserable by trying to settle for second best. Others find peace in resigning themselves to moving on, even though their love remains intact, and always will be.
I had an acquaintance who did exactly this early in his life, only to be reunited with his first love many years later, when both of them had gone through divorces.
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A wonderful exchange here. Thanks everybody!
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Nah, with just a little creativity you figure out how you both can be on top (course not at the same time!).
Andrew, your caption was hilarious, but shouldn't it be over there in the "Pawning" section?
Getting far OT here . . . .
Great analysis FC. At that point it wasn't about the sex, Jack just wanted to feel wanted.
I was thinking about being Off topic, too, but I figured a picture is worth a thousand words, and the little psycho-drama illustrates the connection between Ennis and Jack even at the heat of confrontation. They BOTH loved each other, just didn't know how to say it. I was only fulfilling what FlwrChild asked for, and put some words into the mouth of the cowboys. Sorry about the top and bottom thing, but it's just my trying to follow the standard running joke about Ennis and Jack.
I am with you, Jackster, that the two are happy to switch.
Yup, Jack just wanted to feel wanted. And Ennis was happy to be wanted. That's what love is. But Ennis was not sure how to say it. So I had him borrowing the same words from Jack, and it would be natural for Jack to fall into his arms, into a new level of embrace. If only... :ghug:
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. . . . that the two are happy to switch.
"You wanna' switch, I'd be happy to . . . "
Andrew, never thought a' before! :clap:
Seems this is irrefutable evidence that Ennis was, as the tractor says, Versatile.
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Now I think we really are getting off topic. ;D Let's bring it back to the subject at hand.
I'm curious August7th, as to whether any of these theories or impressions we've been exchanging have had any impact on your own impressions from this scene.
And as to Jack being bitter and accusatory in the final confrontation, I would also agree that he felt that way in a burst of anger but still clung to the love stronger than to his own disappointments. Especially based on that line from the SS:...let be, let be... I think that as painful as it was for him to live with, he always understood that Ennis was wrestling with a lot of inner demons and therefore more unable than unwilling to give Jack what he wanted. It was probably this understanding that allowed Jack to keep the love alive in his heart even after all those lonely years of separation.
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"You wanna' switch, I'd be happy to . . . "
Andrew, never thought a' before! :clap:
Seems this is irrefutable evidence that Ennis was, as the tractor says, Versatile.
;) Yup, You Bet :c)
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Now I think we really are getting off topic. ;D Let's bring it back to the subject at hand.
I'm curious August7th, as to whether any of these theories or impressions we've been exchanging have had any impact on your own impressions from this scene.
And as to Jack being bitter and accusatory in the final confrontation, I would also agree that he felt that way in a burst of anger but still clung to the love stronger than to his own disappointments. Especially based on that line from the SS:...let be, let be... I think that as painful as it was for him to live with, he always understood that Ennis was wrestling with a lot of inner demons and therefore more unable than unwilling to give Jack what he wanted. It was probably this understanding that allowed Jack to keep the love alive in his heart even after all those lonely years of separation.
I am with you FlwrChild. I feel there is a difference in attitude between Rhett's "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" then walking out the door, and Jack's "Damn it, Ennis" then hugging and holding on tight.
Rhett's unrequited love was worn out;
Jack's painful frustrated love hidden from public view was alive but...let be...like a seed patiently waiting for Ennis to come and pour sunshine and life giving moisture, for it to bloom...come November.
It's not worn out; it's waiting...forever waiting.
:(
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Another good post Andrew. :clap:
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I'm curious August7th, as to whether any of these theories or impressions we've been exchanging have had any impact on your own impressions from this scene.
"I wish I could quit you."
"You have no idea how bad it gets."
"...the short leash you keep me on..."
These are not remarks of a love worn out, but a love desperate for fulfillment, yearning to be closer, to be more.
"Never enough time."
Rhett's unrequited love was worn out;
Jack's painful frustrated love hidden from public view was alive but...let be...like a seed patiently waiting for Ennis to come and pour sunshine and life giving moisture, for it to bloom...come November.
It's not worn out; it's waiting...forever waiting.
:(
Yes, FlwrChild, all the responses have really given me a lot of food for thought. The quotes from lancecowboy above express better than I can where I now stand on whether Jack's love for Ennis had worn out by the time of their last meeting.
But I wonder what the future would have held had Jack lived. The look on his face in the movie as Ennis drives away seems ambiguous to me. I agree with lancecowboy that Jack is brokenhearted, but I think that look also has an exhausted, defeated, (dare I say) "worn out" quality to it. To me, it embodies visually the short story's statement that they "torqued things ALMOST to where they had been" [emphasis added].
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Good point August7th.
All I can say is that we'll never know what might have happened had Jack lived. That is one of those nagging questions that lingers in our minds. I do know that I recognize that look and the feelings that go with it. And I dare say that wasn't the first time that Jack wore a look at least somewhat like that. His love was certainly being worn down from the outside. I guess the only question is how well was he able to fortify it from within and how much longer would he have been able to do that? Another 20 years? Two? The question lingers. :-\\
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It's not worn out; it's waiting...forever waiting. :(
%) for this Lance :c)
:^^) ^f^
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Good point August7th.
All I can say is that we'll never know what might have happened had Jack lived. That is one of those nagging questions that lingers in our minds. I do know that I recognize that look and the feelings that go with it. And I dare say that wasn't the first time that Jack wore a look at least somewhat like that. His love was certainly being worn down from the outside. I guess the only question is how well was he able to fortify it from within and how much longer would he have been able to do that? Another 20 years? Two? The question lingers. :-\\
:ghug: loreen :c)
I agree, FlwrChild. I think as tough as it had been for Jack, he was worn down, but not defeated. I think his love for Ennis was, at that point, like the dying Phoenix, ready to rise from ashes if Ennis was ready to light a spark and to kindle the ember. But then I am always the optimist.
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I agree, FlwrChild. I think as tough as it had been for Jack, he was worn down, but not defeated. I think his love for Ennis was, at that point, like the dying Phoenix, ready to rise from ashes if Ennis was ready to light a spark and to kindle the ember. But then I am always the optimist.
I feel the same. ^f^
I firmly believe that it was only death (so sad and sensesless :\'() that could make Jack separate from Ennis.
IMO they were one soul and one body, they'd come together one way or the other. Each scrap Ennis was giving to Jack, he cherish it and loved Ennis for it. Ennis always knew that he would find his love(r) any time he needed him, that his "Little darling" will wait for him no matter what.
So many unsaid things, but even more exposed emotions all over BBM!
I will always be sad for Jack's death :\'( , for that was the cruelest was to part them and shadowed their everlasting love. :\'(
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:ghug: loreen :c)
I agree, FlwrChild. I think as tough as it had been for Jack, he was worn down, but not defeated. I think his love for Ennis was, at that point, like the dying Phoenix, ready to rise from ashes if Ennis was ready to light a spark and to kindle the ember. But then I am always the optimist.
As usual, another great post, Andrew. :^^)
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Had Ennis turned around and taken such a huge step, it would have taken an agonizing effort on his part and they both would have been stone cold serious. Happy, but serious. And I still think that Jack would have knocked him on his ass if he'd ever tried to get a comment like that by him.
I couldn't agree more :*( And I know you don't see that as even a remote possibility.
I also think that the love was still there but that it was the dream itself that was going on life support. I think that the FC was Jack’s wall breaking; the dam bursting and he wasn’t just railing against Ennis or the situation, but himself as well- Ennis set the “rules” and he followed them willingly. It eventually takes its toll on you. “nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved” still hopelessly adrift, not certain if they will reach the shore or drown in the current. That look on Jack’s face as Ennis drives away breaks my heart. Jack’s recalling the DE conjures up so many things for me-wanting to go back to a time before there were “rules”, a tender moment of being cared for, a reminder of why they are in this in the first place…. “Let be” trips me up sometimes because depending on my mood, I guess, I interpret it in different ways. I mostly think it was Jack resigning himself to the fact that that was a moment in time, too many years and miles between then and now, sort of the flame on a candle flickering in the breeze.
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I also think that the love was still there but that it was the dream itself that was going on life support. I think that the FC was Jack’s wall breaking; the dam bursting and he wasn’t just railing against Ennis or the situation, but himself as well- Ennis set the “rules” and he followed them willingly. It eventually takes its toll on you. “nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved” still hopelessly adrift, not certain if they will reach the shore or drown in the current. That look on Jack’s face as Ennis drives away breaks my heart. Jack’s recalling the DE conjures up so many things for me-wanting to go back to a time before there were “rules”, a tender moment of being cared for, a reminder of why they are in this in the first place…. “Let be” trips me up sometimes because depending on my mood, I guess, I interpret it in different ways. I mostly think it was Jack resigning himself to the fact that that was a moment in time, too many years and miles between then and now, sort of the flame on a candle flickering in the breeze.
OMG, that’s beautiful LJN. You’ve summed up their relationship so well, I can almost feel my heart breaking all over again for both of them.
:\'( :ghug:
I couldn't agree more :*( And I know you don't see that as even a remote possibility.
You know me so well. ;D That wife bit wouldn’t play in my book.
No actually I said I didn’t see either of them behaving that way. I feel that anything that took place in that moment would be a very serious exchange. Andrew was just taunting me a little. We don’t necessarily see this from the same angle but what we both agree on is that Jack’s love, while worn, was not ‘worn out’ ( just like your candle in the wind analogy) and that had Ennis turned around and finally agreed to give that sweet life a try (which all of us long for right along with Jack), Jack would still have been ready to do so. He was, as Andrew said “forever waiting.” We were just ribbing each other. Sorry if there was any confusion. :c)
I do believe, as Andrew does, that there was more humor in the earlier years of their relationship, before life had beaten them both down somewhat. And I would love to imagine their life together, if Ennis had finally taken that chance, as being filled with humor, passion, and companionship, just as they started out on the mountain that first summer.
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I couldn't agree more :*( And I know you don't see that as even a remote possibility.
I also think that the love was still there but that it was the dream itself that was going on life support. I think that the FC was Jack’s wall breaking; the dam bursting and he wasn’t just railing against Ennis or the situation, but himself as well- Ennis set the “rules” and he followed them willingly. It eventually takes its toll on you. “nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved” still hopelessly adrift, not certain if they will reach the shore or drown in the current. That look on Jack’s face as Ennis drives away breaks my heart. Jack’s recalling the DE conjures up so many things for me-wanting to go back to a time before there were “rules”, a tender moment of being cared for, a reminder of why they are in this in the first place…. “Let be” trips me up sometimes because depending on my mood, I guess, I interpret it in different ways. I mostly think it was Jack resigning himself to the fact that that was a moment in time, too many years and miles between then and now, sort of the flame on a candle flickering in the breeze.
So true! And well described! ^f^
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But I wonder what the future would have held had Jack lived. The look on his face in the movie as Ennis drives away seems ambiguous to me. I agree with lancecowboy that Jack is brokenhearted, but I think that look also has an exhausted, defeated, (dare I say) "worn out" quality to it. To me, it embodies visually the short story's statement that they "torqued things ALMOST to where they had been" [emphasis added].
This is all true. And it also embodies the most important thing: "Let be. Let be."
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This is all true. And it also embodies the most important thing: "Let be. Let be."
Here we go back to the fact that at this point (during FC), Jack's end was already foreseen! That's sad! :\'(
As AP decided to finish their love story at that point, any presumption about their meeting in November is useless! But we can always hope in our hearts! As we know that their love is eternal... <^(
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I think inspite of the fact of recieving Ennis's rejection that they could not live together, Jack holds on to what he has with Ennis...In the final scene he said that he wished he could quit him "..He dint say "I will quit you " or " I am quitting u".
..It simply shows that it was something impossible for Jack..Jack's love for Ennis was constant inspite of all mishaps and regrets and 20 years man..it's a long time and even though so many hurts were there, Jack still was with Ennis and his love is eternal.. I think in the final scene when Ennis saw the shirts he saw that Jack's love is too deep and meaningful and all for him and that is something which will give him hope to live for the rest of his life..The fact that he was loved made the rest of his life worth living..
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I think inspite of the fact of recieving Ennis's rejection that they could not live together, Jack holds on to what he has with Ennis...In the final scene he said that he wished he could quit him "..He dint say "I will quit you " or " I am quitting u".
..It simply shows that it was something impossible for Jack..Jack's love for Ennis was constant inspite of all mishaps and regrets and 20 years man..it's a long time and even though so many hurts were there, Jack still was with Ennis and his love is eternal.. I think in the final scene when Ennis saw the shirts he saw that Jack's love is too deep and meaningful and all for him and that is something which will give him hope to live for the rest of his life..The fact that he was loved made the rest of his life worth living..
Oh yes! I will always be the one who sees only Ennis and Jack together. In any way and any situation. No one could separate them, as they were one! <^(
The other thing is - was Ennis life worthy because he knew that he was loved... I don't know. He should've known that he had been loved years ago, when Jack was willing to leave his family and everything only to be with him. Now, Jack's gone, and suddenly his love makes Ennis's life worthy? I'm just not sure. I always watch things from AP's view point, and all I see that what she wanted to emphasize was Ennis's sorrow and emptiness...and spiritual Jack's presence in dreams and shirts.... :\'(
:^^)
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Oh yes! I will always be the one who sees only Ennis and Jack together. In any way and any situation. No one could separate them, as they were one! <^(
The other thing is - was Ennis life worthy because he knew that he was loved... I don't know. He should've known that he had been loved years ago, when Jack was willing to leave his family and everything only to be with him. Now, Jack's gone, and suddenly his love makes Ennis's life worthy? I'm just not sure. I always watch things from AP's view point, and all I see that what she wanted to emphasize was Ennis's sorrow and emptiness...and spiritual Jack's presence in dreams and shirts.... :\'(
:^^)
I know what u mean Loreen...Ya, Ennis should have known this a time ago when Jack wanted to live with him...I think he did know that but his own fears of rejection, embarrasment and worse to be killed made him shut himself from this reality...He feared so much and that made himself not follow his heart...He knew Jack loved him but he did not want to reciprocate that by living with him..we have to see this from Ennis point of view and the generation in which they were living..Being involved with another man was a cultural and social taboo and Ennis wanted to save himself from abandonment..He thought that he would defenitely be in a secret realtion with Jack and just becuse he knew that Jack loved him he was clinging to the relation for 20 years..Obviously that was not enough for Jack.He wanted to be a more active part of Ennis life..
The point I am trying to make is that in the end when Ennis sees the shirts it hits him that he never knew the intensity of jack's love.,Imagaine keeping a old, worn out shirt with someone's blood as a token of love...It was the mark of Jacks's love and suffeirngs and longing for Ennis all these years..Ennis feels really bad and broken..But just think if Ennis would just give up on his life at that time , it would not been what Jack would want...Jack always wanted to see that Ennis was happy and living in peace...If Ennis would have tried to end his life or lived like a vegetable it would have hurt Jacks' soul...Ennis knew that..He dint want to hurt Jack anymore and the only way to do so was to ask for Jack's forigivness and to forgive himself for not being there for Jack all these years and to live the rest of his life in peace and in Jack's memory..
I feel that if Ennis would do that it would make Jacks' soul rest in peace...Its chokes me to think all this but I feel so...
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The point I am trying to make is that in the end when Ennis sees the shirts it hits him that he never knew the intensity of jack's love.,Imagaine keeping a old, worn out shirt with someone's blood as a token of love...It was the mark of Jacks's love and suffeirngs and longing for Ennis all these years..Ennis feels really bad and broken..But just think if Ennis would just give up on his life at that time , it would not been what Jack would want...Jack always wanted to see that Ennis was happy and living in peace...If Ennis would have tried to end his life or lived like a vegetable it would have hurt Jacks' soul...Ennis knew that..He dint want to hurt Jack anymore and the only way to do so was to ask for Jack's forigivness and to forgive himself for not being there for Jack all these years and to live the rest of his life in peace and in Jack's memory..
I feel that if Ennis would do that it would make Jacks' soul rest in peace...Its chokes me to think all this but I feel so...
Today, after thinking about BBM over and over again, I just wanted to persuade myself that Jack maybe took those shirts years ago and just forgot about them.... and they have no deeper meaning at all....
I know that it' s a lie, but I wanted to save myself from further pain caused by 2 hugging shirts which strike my heart every single day... :\'( :\'( :\'(
I think that maybe there is a possibility that Ennis's wish to continue life has something to do with Jack, or something, but IMO, that is not so important at all. I know that I'm being the most pessimistic person in all this forum ( ~) ), but the way I see the last scene and ending of the movie/SS is like that.
Ennis continued living as well as he lived before - suffering and standing something that he couldn't change. That's Ennis, that's how he was.Jack's wish that Ennis would live a happy life has nothing to do with it, IMO.
The very words of AP in SS shows that Ennis was living somewhere in the middle of his own belief (maybe daydreaming about Jack), and the reality (absence of Jack)...
Surely, he felt guilty because he never accepted the best offer in his miserable life - offer from his "little darling" to live together. But most of his emotions is built of extreme regret, regret for loosing so many opportunities to be with Jack and live a "sweet life",
in the most devastating way - by loosing Jack himself! I think that'll kill his feelings till the day he dies...
:\'( :\'( :\'(
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I don't think that Ennis could ever go back to being the same after Jack's death. It is remarkable the things Ennis did post-Jack that he would've never done before. Calling Lureen, traveling beyond the coffepot to LF, and when there laid himself so bare to two strangers, Jack's parents, that he was their son's friend...and lover. Watched the film the other day for the umpteeth time..( I've lost count), I just hate the fact that Jack had to die.
For years Ennis hid his love from others due to fear, shame, whatever, but now he must face those fears head on. Guilt? yes, regrets? certainly, but the shirts were symbolic in their own right of Jack's continuous love for him. Ennis imo sought to honor that. I feel he felt obligated in some way to find redemption in the face of what was, and guilt for what he could'nt change. Jack was gone, but he left a message in the way the shirts were displayed and Ennis finally "got it".
Breaking it off with Cassie, putting numbers on the mailbox, and deciding to attend his daughter's wedding are all evidence that Ennis had seen the light and realized a higher level of exisistence, more open. It all came together for him in Jack's closet. He could finally shed his old ways and embrace love and life. He came to LF seeking to have Jack's ashes to spread on Brokeback..." like his wife said he wanted", but I feel Ennis had his own motivation for wanting them spread there of course. It was where he and Jack discovered love.
Mr. Twist denied him the ashes, but Mrs. Twist led him to something much more valuable than anything, the shirts, he could take them home, display them in his closet as if he finally could live with Jack after all. At least in a synbolic way. In any case, he had the spirit of Jack's love with him, and in the face of that, he could live a life free of the fear of love , finally accepting that not only was he loved all along, but that he could love whom ever was left of those he cherished. Jack taught him that imo. Thanx.
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Gotta agree w/ Loreen & Aintfoolin on this one. Ennis is a changed man.
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Here we go back to the fact that at this point (during FC), Jack's end was already foreseen! That's sad! :\'(
As AP decided to finish their love story at that point, any presumption about their meeting in November is useless! But we can always hope in our hearts! As we know that their love is eternal... <^(
In a way, the Dozy Embrace is a true valedictory. It sums up Jack's life beautifully. And I think it shows that whatever may have happened, the love was intact, IMO.
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Breaking it off with Cassie, putting numbers on the mailbox, and deciding to attend his daughter's wedding are all evidence that Ennis had seen the light and realized a higher level of exisistence, more open. It all came together for him in Jack's closet. He could finally shed his old ways and embrace love and life. He came to LF seeking to have Jack's ashes to spread on Brokeback..." like his wife said he wanted", but I feel Ennis had his own motivation for wanting them spread there of course. It was where he and Jack discovered love.
I agree with this. I think you summarized it well here...
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In a way, the Dozy Embrace is a true valedictory. It sums up Jack's life beautifully. And I think it shows that whatever may have happened, the love was intact, IMO.
Yes, even too sad to bare, but so masterfully done - to round the story in one embrace made of all - love, pain, confession, regrets, eternal hunger for each other, understanding, comfort ... and farewell! :\'(
I know that AP needed a long time to write this short story, but she gave her best shot! $)
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Yes, even too sad to bare, but so masterfully done - to round the story in one embrace made of all - love, pain, confession, regrets, eternal hunger for each other, understanding, comfort ... and farewell! :\'(
I know that AP needed a long time to write this short story, but she gave her best shot! $)
I also felt that it was a farewell. In the ss, we certainly get this feeling. Yes, you do get the feeling that Jack was also worn out by the years of waiting, but you also get the feeling that at that point, he understood perfectly where each of them stood, and it was alright, even if it was far from perfect.
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I'm going to go slightly off topic for a moment to address the idea of Ennis as a changed man.
I agree completely with aintfoolin about how remarkable it is that Ennis called Lureen and then went to face Jack's parents in person. These were huge steps for him to take, and shows in its own way his devotion to Jack that he had to see the process through. As to how he was likely to live the rest of his life, I also think the lessons he learned most likely helped him to be a better father and to realize that his kids need his attention as well as his love. Making the sacrifice of his job to go to Junior's wedding was indication of that.
And I think that once he found the shirts, his understanding and recognition of what they had, and his acceptance of it, did indeed come full circle. But though that was something he could hold in his heart, I don't think it likely that it changed the way he lived his life outwardly. Ennis was always a very closed and private person. And I think the SS especially made it clear that for him, Jack was still the predominant force in his life and his heart. The opening passage says that Ennis is out of a job again after the ranch he worked at was sold. He was going to have to move in with his daughter til he found another job "yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream." Ennis has found peace with their relationship and his love for Jack, but as for moving on? I don't think that ever happened for Ennis.
Sorry for the OT. I guess at the end of the day, I believe that neither man's love ever wore out, perhaps just some of their endurance and, for Jack, some of his hope.
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I'm going to go slightly off topic for a moment to address the idea of Ennis as a changed man.
I agree completely with aintfoolin about how remarkable it is that Ennis called Lureen and then went to face Jack's parents in person. These were huge steps for him to take, and shows in its own way his devotion to Jack that he had to see the process through. As to how he was likely to live the rest of his life, I also think the lessons he learned most likely helped him to be a better father and to realize that his kids need his attention as well as his love. Making the sacrifice of his job to go to Junior's wedding was indication of that.
And I think that once he found the shirts, his understanding and recognition of what they had, and his acceptance of it, did indeed come full circle. But though that was something he could hold in his heart, I don't think it likely that it changed the way he lived his life outwardly. Ennis was always a very closed and private person. And I think the SS especially made it clear that for him, Jack was still the predominant force in his life and his heart. The opening passage says that Ennis is out of a job again after the ranch he worked at was sold. He was going to have to move in with his daughter til he found another job "yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream." Ennis has found peace with their relationship and his love for Jack, but as for moving on? I don't think that ever happened for Ennis.
FlwrChild ^f^,
I am with you here. I even think that you put it so good - "the sacrifice". He knew that he had to go to the wedding. It was his duty, but he didn't jump into it like any devoted father or changed person. He hesitated for a while. Only pleading eyes of Junior which reminded him of his previous refusals of another pleading blue eyes, so he decided to go to wedding. But not as a spontaneous decision, rather "the sacrifice" he was willing to make!
I also believe that no major obvious change happened in Ennis.. but I think I wrote about it in some other thread... maybe I'm also *o)
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I also felt that it was a farewell. In the ss, we certainly get this feeling. Yes, you do get the feeling that Jack was also worn out by the years of waiting, but you also get the feeling that at that point, he understood perfectly where each of them stood, and it was alright, even if it was far from perfect.
I also asked myself how come that Jack spoke up only in few occasions about his wish to live with Ennis, sometimes even not so openly. Was he afraid that Ennis would broke up or stop "fishing" with him??
I believe that Jack was also not so sure of himself, and not so open as he looked like. I think that he also had his own restrains even we don't see it very clearly... :s) If not, he would have done something about it in 20 years... or not? I don't know! ???
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I also asked myself how come that Jack spoke up only in few occasions about his wish to live with Ennis, sometimes even not so openly. Was he afraid that Ennis would broke up or stop "fishing" with him??
I believe that Jack was also not so sure of himself, and not so open as he looked like. I think that he also had his own restrains even we don't see it very clearly... :s) If not, he would have done something about it in 20 years... or not? I don't know! ???
I think that after the divorce fiasco, he was a little more cautious in bringing up. That was brutal and a turning point for Jack in realizing that it was in fact Ennis that was holding them back and not anyone else. Jack got a good hard smack of reality that day. If he had any restraints I think it was in not being too eager to set himself up for that kind of hurt again, which it totally understandable, imo.
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I think that after the divorce fiasco, he was a little more cautious in bringing up. That was brutal and a turning point for Jack in realizing that it was in fact Ennis that was holding them back and not anyone else. Jack got a good hard smack of reality that day. If he had any restraints I think it was in not being too eager to set himself up for that kind of hurt again, which it totally understandable, imo.
LJN ^f^,
I dislike that scene a lot. It was heartbreaking not only for Jack but also for all of us who was hoping for a better ending of their beautiful relationship. And I think that you could be right here - the pain was too much for Jack :\'(
The question I asked in one other thread was: why Ennis said in 1967 after reunion: "I shouldn't let you out a my sight", referring to 1963 when two of them separated???
At that point (1967) he felt obligation to Alma &kids, and that was OK with me.But after divorce things were the same as 1963 - he was a free man to go. One time a month or two seeing his daughters was not a real excuse! He was a strange man indeed... :(
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LJN ^f^,
I dislike that scene a lot. It was heartbreaking not only for Jack but also for all of us who was hoping for a better ending of their beautiful relationship. And I think that you could be right here - the pain was too much for Jack :\'(
The question I asked in one other thread was: why Ennis said in 1967 after reunion: "I shouldn't let you out a my sight", referring to 1963 when two of them separated???
At that point (1967) he felt obligation to Alma &kids, and that was OK with me.But after divorce things were the same as 1963 - he was a free man to go. One time a month or two seeing his daughters was not a real excuse! He was a strange man indeed... :(
That's what I always understood it to mean.
I think don't think Ennis was strange so much as tied to fear. As an adult, it's hard for me to view the Earl scene so I can only imagine what it did to a small child. And sometimes, we're so tied to our own self-defeat and fears that we are afraid to take a step or two forward. And I honestly think Ennis's intentions were "good" in that keeping Jack at arms length he was trying to protect him from that fate, for what it's worth.
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I also asked myself how come that Jack spoke up only in few occasions about his wish to live with Ennis, sometimes even not so openly. Was he afraid that Ennis would broke up or stop "fishing" with him??
I believe that Jack was also not so sure of himself, and not so open as he looked like. I think that he also had his own restrains even we don't see it very clearly... :s) If not, he would have done something about it in 20 years... or not? I don't know! ???
I think it's because Jack knew that Ennis didn't want to keep on discussing it. Jack always found creative ways to bring up the possibility of a life together (example: the fight by the stream where Jack suggests that Ennis move away from Riverton) and he was always rebuffed. So, I don't think Jack was unsure of what he wanted; rather, he understood all too well what Ennis wanted -- and it was not to discuss it, after all was said and done over the years.
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I think that after the divorce fiasco, he was a little more cautious in bringing up. That was brutal and a turning point for Jack in realizing that it was in fact Ennis that was holding them back and not anyone else. Jack got a good hard smack of reality that day. If he had any restraints I think it was in not being too eager to set himself up for that kind of hurt again, which it totally understandable, imo.
I agree with you, LJN.
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For the new ladies here, the "slap in the face" to Jack after the divorce scene was that he had driven 14 hrs. 1 way & got turned away w/ not even so much as "would ya' like to come in for a cup of coffee?" He immediately had to turn around & drive 14 hrs. back. You would think that Ennis would realize the huge sacrifice, but his fears were too great.
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For the new ladies here, the "slap in the face" to Jack after the divorce scene was that he had driven 14 hrs. 1 way & got turned away w/ not even so much as "would ya' like to come in for a cup of coffee?" He immediately had to turn around & drive 14 hrs. back. You would think that Ennis would realize the huge sacrifice, but his fears were too great.
This scene would be really hard no to notice. It's one of the most repulsive scenes in the movie. When I first saw it I was shocked!
So after that, Jack was afraid to be rejected again, I can understand that, but Jack&Ennis met again the very next month after this unpleasant event. I wonder what were they talking about that time.
- Well Jack, how was your trip back home? Were you tired?
- Oh, it was easy. I even prolonged the trip right down to Mexico!
- Mexico?
- Yes, you know how I like their cuisine! ???
... sure E&J had a strange relationship. They completely belonged to each other, but on the other side, they were not able to express their feelings (especially Ennis) to each other by words... Oh God, that's so awfully sad...
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This scene would be really hard no to notice. It's one of the most repulsive scenes in the movie. When I first saw it I was shocked!
So after that, Jack was afraid to be rejected again, I can understand that, but Jack&Ennis met again the very next month after this unpleasant event. I wonder what were they talking about that time.
- Well Jack, how was your trip back home? Were you tired?
- Oh, it was easy. I even prolonged the trip right down to Mexico!
- Mexico?
- Yes, you know how I like their cuisine! ???
... sure E&J had a strange relationship. They completely belonged to each other, but on the other side, they were not able to express their feelings (especially Ennis) to each other by words... Oh God, that's so awfully sad...
OMG..this is so dam sad..That conversation would just be a cover up...They really were not so much into speaking things out..That was the flaw in their relationship because of which there were so many regrets, hurts that were expressed in the FC....
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The fact that Jack persisted even after being turned away by Ennis after that 14 hour drive shows us how persistent Jack was. He could have ca;;ed it quits there and then, but he didn't. This is again one reason why I think that even after the Last Confrontation, his love never really wore out.
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The fact that Jack persisted even after being turned away by Ennis after that 14 hour drive shows us how persistent Jack was. He could have ca;;ed it quits there and then, but he didn't. This is again one reason why I think that even after the Last Confrontation, his love never really wore out.
Ennis knew that he was guilty/wrong, and he called "Jack!" maybe wanting to say something more, but Jack didn't want less! He wanted only Ennis, not his poor excuses, so he just left, but not before pointing out that their next month meeting still stays! That Jack character was so attractive in his neverending wish to reach the core of Ennis's heart, where anything would be possible for two of them.
Yes tpe, I am here with you - Jack's love NEVER WORE OUT! <^(
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Ennis knew that he was guilty/wrong, and he called "Jack!" maybe wanting to say something more, but Jack didn't want less! He wanted only Ennis, not his poor excuses, so he just left, but not before pointing out that their next month meeting still stays! That Jack character was so attractive in his neverending wish to reach the core of Ennis's heart, where anything would be possible for two of them.
Yes tpe, I am here with you - Jack's love NEVER WORE OUT! <^(
Yes, I second. :)
It is sad to see him try to hide the extent of his hurt. I think he knew that Ennis didn't relish vulnerability, and might have thought that Ennis wouldn't have appreciated a more public display of his (Jack's) hurt feelings -- and so he went.
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Ennis knew that he was guilty/wrong, and he called "Jack!" maybe wanting to say something more, but Jack didn't want less! He wanted only Ennis, not his poor excuses, so he just left, but not before pointing out that their next month meeting still stays! That Jack character was so attractive in his neverending wish to reach the core of Ennis's heart, where anything would be possible for two of them.
Yes tpe, I am here with you - Jack's love NEVER WORE OUT! <^(
However,I have never thought that Ennis was going to give Jack a simple excuse by means of this shy "Jack¡".The determination of his face and the way he tells his lover's name make me think that he was going to "arrange" things the best he could.The problem was that,as so many times during their relationship,Jack was so devastated that wasn't able at all of hearing,or even planning if there would be another moment to meet each other.And that's united with one of the greatest faults of Ennis and Jack's bond and about which we have spoken some times before; their lack of communication,strongly remarked and augmented by their-specially Ennis-fears to open themselves more,perhaps to result too "clear" before society.Be what it might be,what a pity¡... :-\\
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However,I have never thought that Ennis was going to give Jack a simple excuse by means of this shy "Jack¡".The determination of his face and the way he tells his lover's name make me think that he was going to "arrange" things the best he could.The problem was that,as so many times during their relationship,Jack was so devastated that wasn't able at all of hearing,or even planning if there would be another moment to meet each other.And that's united with one of the greatest faults of Ennis and Jack's bond and about which we have spoken some times before; their lack of communication,strongly remarked and augmented by their-specially Ennis-fears to open themselves more,perhaps to result too "clear" before society.Be what it might be,what a pity¡... :-\\
Yes- We always think of Jack as open and ready to deal with the problems, but you're right. Every rejection from Ennis was so painful for him, that he never even thought of second best. He always escaped to another theme hiding his broken heart. And that really breaks my heart too! :\'( :\'(
Even I believe that any arrangement Ennis would have Jack wasn't gonna accept. All was poor excuse except the only thing he always wanted... Ennis!
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I actually think that this is one scene in which Jack read Ennis perfectly. Ennis was happy to see Jack, yes. But as soon as he remembered that his daughters were there and started feeling that self conscious sense of everybody watching him and knowing his secret, there was no way he was going to ask Jack to stay on any level. When he turned to look at that truck driving past (at quite a distance too) and was so distracted by it, Jack could see the writing on the wall. He turned and left with a curt "See you next month then" because there was nothing else he could do. He could have hit the brakes and stayed in that yard all day and Ennis wouldn't have had anything to offer him - he was too paralyzed by his own fears and sense of transparency. For Jack to accept that and still show up for their next meeting, presumably with no recriminations, shows how deep his love for Ennis was. I'm with you guys. His love didn't wear out. He was worn out, his heart was worn out, but his love hadn't worn out. I can't say how long that might have lasted for, but at the time of his death I don't believe it had worn out yet :ghug:
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I actually think that this is one scene in which Jack read Ennis perfectly. Ennis was happy to see Jack, yes. But as soon as he remembered that his daughters were there and started feeling that self conscious sense of everybody watching him and knowing his secret, there was no way he was going to ask Jack to stay on any level. When he turned to look at that truck driving past (at quite a distance too) and was so distracted by it, Jack could see the writing on the wall. He turned and left with a curt "See you next month then" because there was nothing else he could do. He could have hit the brakes and stayed in that yard all day and Ennis wouldn't have had anything to offer him - he was too paralyzed by his own fears and sense of transparency. For Jack to accept that and still show up for their next meeting, presumably with no recriminations, shows how deep his love for Ennis was. I'm with you guys. His love didn't wear out. He was worn out, his heart was worn out, but his love hadn't worn out. I can't say how long that might have lasted for, but at the time of his death I don't believe it had worn out yet :ghug:
Even though months back I have disliked this scene because I hated to see Jack crying and going back disappointed after driving for 14 hours so happily and coming to meet Ennis..But now I have understood Ennis better and I know that he was a prey to his fears..His childhood fears which never left him, his kids thinking ill about him or the society condemning him took a toll over Ennis and he could not just be with Jack that day..Jack's love for Ennis never ever faded away and he kept waiting...Its too sad...
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Even though months back I have disliked this scene because I hated to see Jack crying and going back disappointed after driving for 14 hours so happily and coming to meet Ennis..But now I have understood Ennis better and I know that he was a prey to his fears..His childhood fears which never left him, his kids thinking ill about him or the society condemning him took a toll over Ennis and he could not just be with Jack that day..Jack's love for Ennis never ever faded away and he kept waiting...Its too sad...
Adoring the tenderness and the whole character of Jack, I really resent Ennis's behaviour sometimes. I just have to admit that. That character made so many mistakes during 20 years that I can not find an excuse for him always. There are a certain situations where his behaviour is acceptable and understood, but for me, as I see things, he really did too many mistakes for which he's going to pay all his sad life without Jack. It's not that I like that (God forbid!)... It's just that I will never be capable of accepting so sad and devastating end of their romance, as they could have everything. They were meant to be together. They were one soul just forced to be separated and to suffer. And I suffer together with them .... Damn! *^)
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Adoring the tenderness and the whole character of Jack, I really resent Ennis's behaviour sometimes. I just have to admit that. That character made so many mistakes during 20 years that I can not find an excuse for him always. There are a certain situations where his behaviour is acceptable and understood, but for me, as I see things, he really did too many mistakes for which he's going to pay all his sad life without Jack. It's not that I like that (God forbid!)... It's just that I will never be capable of accepting so sad and devastating end of their romance, as they could have everything. They were meant to be together. They were one soul just forced to be separated and to suffer. And I suffer together with them .... Damn! *^)
Dear Loreen, :ghug:
I can understand your emotions…I know that Ennis has acted harsh at times and he has missed opportunities for living together with Jack and we all know so deeply as to how much they loved each other and mean to each other that we just want them to be together...it gets hard and hard and as I said even I used to dislike this scene and I just wanted to enter the TV screen and tell Ennis what he is putting Jack through...It plays on my mind too…But I pity Ennis too as he never did all that with pleasure…He could not help it and that made himself miserable..He suffered throughout because he could not make himself follow his heart..I feel sad as he dint have or dint cater the strength to do that…Ya, that was a flaw in his nature...I can say that he unintentionally or unconsciously took Jack for granted as Jack would always be there…I think I pity him at the same time because he never could take up the strength to accept a sweet life with Jack…Sometimes people make wrong choices without knowing what they will pay for it in future...Fear can really rule people’s life and make them do things that they r not proud of…And then what remains is regrets for not doing what should have been done...Its a horrible situation…
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Dear Loreen, :ghug:
I can understand your emotions…I know that Ennis has acted harsh at times and he has missed opportunities for living together with Jack and we all know so deeply as to how much they loved each other and mean to each other that we just want them to be together...it gets hard and hard and as I said even I used to dislike this scene and I just wanted to enter the TV screen and tell Ennis what he is putting Jack through...It plays on my mind too…But I pity Ennis too as he never did all that with pleasure…He could not help it and that made himself miserable..He suffered throughout because he could not make himself follow his heart..I feel sad as he dint have or dint cater the strength to do that…Ya, that was a flaw in his nature...I can say that he unintentionally or unconsciously took Jack for granted as Jack would always be there…I think I pity him at the same time because he never could take up the strength to accept a sweet life with Jack…Sometimes people make wrong choices without knowing what they will pay for it in future...Fear can really rule people’s life and make them do things that they r not proud of…And then what remains is regrets for not doing what should have been done...Its a horrible situation…
Do you ever get the feeling that during some crucial scenes ( 1963. talking near Jack's truck, 1967 first time "fishing", divorce scene or FC...) you have always a little hope that maybe this time you watch the movie, something will be different, Ennis would maybe change his mind, and everything will be just fine... Every time I watch it, there is a little stupid hope in me.... ^*()
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Dear Loreen, :ghug:
I can understand your emotions…I know that Ennis has acted harsh at times and he has missed opportunities for living together with Jack and we all know so deeply as to how much they loved each other and mean to each other that we just want them to be together...it gets hard and hard and as I said even I used to dislike this scene and I just wanted to enter the TV screen and tell Ennis what he is putting Jack through...It plays on my mind too…But I pity Ennis too as he never did all that with pleasure…He could not help it and that made himself miserable..He suffered throughout because he could not make himself follow his heart..I feel sad as he dint have or dint cater the strength to do that…Ya, that was a flaw in his nature...I can say that he unintentionally or unconsciously took Jack for granted as Jack would always be there…I think I pity him at the same time because he never could take up the strength to accept a sweet life with Jack…Sometimes people make wrong choices without knowing what they will pay for it in future...Fear can really rule people’s life and make them do things that they r not proud of…And then what remains is regrets for not doing what should have been done...Its a horrible situation…
I agree,dear Cleo,and I can't add anything else to what you have said.I have remarked these phrases because I think they are very clear and right,not just about what happenned with Ennis all his life,but also about what we should learn from it.
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I actually think that this is one scene in which Jack read Ennis perfectly. Ennis was happy to see Jack, yes. But as soon as he remembered that his daughters were there and started feeling that self conscious sense of everybody watching him and knowing his secret, there was no way he was going to ask Jack to stay on any level. When he turned to look at that truck driving past (at quite a distance too) and was so distracted by it, Jack could see the writing on the wall. He turned and left with a curt "See you next month then" because there was nothing else he could do. He could have hit the brakes and stayed in that yard all day and Ennis wouldn't have had anything to offer him - he was too paralyzed by his own fears and sense of transparency. For Jack to accept that and still show up for their next meeting, presumably with no recriminations, shows how deep his love for Ennis was. I'm with you guys. His love didn't wear out. He was worn out, his heart was worn out, but his love hadn't worn out. I can't say how long that might have lasted for, but at the time of his death I don't believe it had worn out yet :ghug:
Again, a wonderful distinction here. Thanks, Flwrchild.
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I've always thought that Jack's last thoughts were of Ennis right before he died. :\'(
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I've always thought that Jack's last thoughts were of Ennis right before he died. :\'(
Yes Atalley, I think so too! :\'(
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Do you ever get the feeling that during some crucial scenes ( 1963. talking near Jack's truck, 1967 first time "fishing", divorce scene or FC...) you have always a little hope that maybe this time you watch the movie, something will be different, Ennis would maybe change his mind, and everything will be just fine... Every time I watch it, there is a little stupid hope in me.... ^*()
I get this hope alot when I watch the scene after the reunion when Jack talk about their sweet life to Ennis...I just want to freeze that moment so that it remains the same..Them both together..But it does not happen and that breaks my heart...I am left wounded like always at the end..
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I get this hope alot when I watch the scene after the reunion when Jack talk about their sweet life to Ennis...I just want to freeze that moment so that it remains the same..Them both together..But it does not happen and that breaks my heart...I am left wounded like always at the end..
I have also ths hope when I see them speaking-more or less...-after having came down on the mountain.One always is waiting for some twirl that can change their situation completely; as if you could come into the screen and oblige them to make the first step until what they are really wishing.I think it's normal when one feels so identified with something as we do with Ennis and Jack story... :c)
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I have also ths hope when I see them speaking-more or less...-after having came down on the mountain.One always is waiting for some twirl that can change their situation completely; as if you could come into the screen and oblige them to make the first step until what they are really wishing.I think it's normal when one feels so identified with something as we do with Ennis and Jack story... :c)
I get this hope alot when I watch the scene after the reunion when Jack talk about their sweet life to Ennis...I just want to freeze that moment so that it remains the same..Them both together..But it does not happen and that breaks my heart...I am left wounded like always at the end..
So, it's not only me! Others also have this crazy hope that movie can change and the whole story go to another direction... well this is something! :s)
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I think there's some open space between what the story says and what some of you are trying to believe.
The story isn't broken. It's fine just the way it is.
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I think there's some open space between what the story says and what some of you are trying to believe.
The story isn't broken. It's fine just the way it is.
The ending certainly has that elusive combination of sadness and hope. It is bittersweet, tragic, and (to a certain extent) redemptive.
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I think there's some open space between what the story says and what some of you are trying to believe.
The story isn't broken. It's fine just the way it is.
Brach ^f^,
there's also some open space between us who experience this story very emotionaly, and you, who have a surprising knowledge about the SS and about the movie, but no emotional attachment to any. :)
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I think there's some open space between what the story says and what some of you are trying to believe.
The story isn't broken. It's fine just the way it is.
I think that some open space means "open to other possibilities",if not about what regards to Jack's end-that however,nobody could put the blame on us to wish it had been different...-,open to a kind of hope and,as Thomas say,redemption in Ennis future.It's nothing bad to speculate about these some other possibilities,even if we believe that the end gives us a lesson greater than a happy one,don't you think so?...
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I think that some open space means "open to other possibilities",if not about what regards to Jack's end-that however,nobody could put the blame on us to wish it had been different...-,open to a kind of hope and,as Thomas say,redemption in Ennis future.It's nothing bad to speculate about these some other possibilities,even if we believe that the end gives us a lesson greater than a happy one,don't you think so?...
MPJ
beautifully said! :^^)
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MPJ
beautifully said! :^^)
Thank you,Loreen ¡ :^^) But it's true; it's not bad believing that some hope could be born from the tragedy.
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Thank you,Loreen ¡ :^^) But it's true; it's not bad believing that some hope could be born from the tragedy.
I agree :^^) There is plenty of open space between what an author puts out and how the reader interprets it and discussion about it is healthy not to mention opening up new perspectives.
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I agree. I think one of the most impressive things about this story is that it is perfect the way it is, and because of this it makes us want more for those boys, because AP (and Ang & crew) brought them and their love to life in a way that we just can't help caring about them and wanting them to be happy. It's also wonderful to think that out of the lessons learned from what they went through, some people might actually be able to make positive changes in their own lives.
To think that all of this came out of a short story about two lonely sheep herders. Sigh...thanks AP. :c)
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I agree. I think one of the most impressive things about this story is that it is perfect the way it is, and because of this it makes us want more for those boys, because AP (and Ang & crew) brought them and their love to life in a way that we just can't help caring about them and wanting them to be happy. It's also wonderful to think that out of the lessons learned from what they went through, some people might actually be able to make positive changes in their own lives.
To think that all of this came out of a short story about two lonely sheep herders. Sigh...thanks AP. :c)
FlwrChild ^f^,
I agree! Also, just to add: there's nothing wrong to feel the way we do, about E&J relationship and to want more for them! It is the proof of the story perfection! :)
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I agree. I think one of the most impressive things about this story is that it is perfect the way it is, and because of this it makes us want more for those boys, because AP (and Ang & crew) brought them and their love to life in a way that we just can't help caring about them and wanting them to be happy. It's also wonderful to think that out of the lessons learned from what they went through, some people might actually be able to make positive changes in their own lives.
To think that all of this came out of a short story about two lonely sheep herders. Sigh...thanks AP. :c)
According to the author the story is not a tale of gay cowboys or lonely sheep herders. "It is a story of destructive rural homophobia." That is what the story is about. That is the point of the story.
You might think the story ends in 1983 with the 40-year old Ennis saying, "Jack, I swear---". You might hope that this Ennis will meet somebody new. But the real story ends right where it began --- at least 15 years after Jack's death, with the present-day Ennis, an impoverished ranch hand in his mid-50s to late 60s, who lives alone in his trailer. He is recently unemployed and in need of work and a place to stay. "Yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream."
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Exactly Brach. :)
And by highlighting that condition through the plight of two beautifully written characters, we're able to feel on a personal level the toll that such homophobia can take.
What Ang Lee does through sweeping panoramic shots and intimate glimpses of the breathtaking expressions that cross his actors' faces, Annie Proulx does through the snippets of gorgeously written intimacy within the stark and stoic backdrop of both her story and the language she uses to tell it:
….During the day Ennis looked across a great gulf and sometimes saw Jack, a small dot moving across a high meadow as an insect moves across a tablecloth; Jack, in his dark camp, saw Ennis as night fire, a red spark on the huge black mass of mountain.
….They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.
[Leaving the mountain] As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow motion, but headlong, irreversible fall.
……..Within a mile Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at a time. He stopped at the side of the road and, in the whirling new snow, tried to puke but nothing came up. He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off.
……..Ennis, wearing his best shirt, white with wide black stripes, didn’t know what time Jack would get there and so had taken the day off, paced back and forth, looking down into a street pale with dust…….Late in the afternoon, thunder growling, that same old green pickup rolled in and he saw Jack get out of the truck, beat-up Resistol tilted back. A hot jolt scalded Ennis and he was out on the landing pulling the door closed behind him. Jack took the stairs two and two. They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack’s big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis’s straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched, pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other’s toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin.
….Years on years they worked their way through the high meadows and mountain drainages…….but never returning to Brokeback.
……One thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying, never enough time, never enough.
…..What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.
….Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they’d never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.
….The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him…..
….At the north end of the closet a tiny jog in the wall made a slight hiding place and here, stiff with long suspension from a nail, hung a shirt……The shirt seemed heavy until he saw there was another shirt inside it, the sleeves carefully worked down inside Jack’s sleeves. It was his own plaid shirt, lost, he’d thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jack’s own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one. He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.
…Around that time, Jack began to appear in his dreams,……And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it.
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Sorry for being so long-winded. It's just so hard to pick a favorite passage. It's language like this, and the visual portrayal of it onscreen, that has drawn so many people to this story. And the additional benefit is that for some, it has been an eye opener and an educational opportunity as well. Because only when social issues mean something to us on a personal level will we ever have any hope of improving them. I think that AP and Ang Lee & company have helped propelled us significantly further in our efforts. :ghug:
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MPJ
beautifully said! :^^)
I second.
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I agree. I think one of the most impressive things about this story is that it is perfect the way it is, and because of this it makes us want more for those boys, because AP (and Ang & crew) brought them and their love to life in a way that we just can't help caring about them and wanting them to be happy. It's also wonderful to think that out of the lessons learned from what they went through, some people might actually be able to make positive changes in their own lives.
To think that all of this came out of a short story about two lonely sheep herders. Sigh...thanks AP. :c)
To connect this with the "wearing out" question, perhaps we see Jack's ambiguity many times in our lives, when certain things are not closed -- most of the time, things are open-ended, and there is where we all come in and think of what would and could be.
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According to the author the story is not a tale of gay cowboys or lonely sheep herders. "It is a story of destructive rural homophobia." That is what the story is about. That is the point of the story.
You might think the story ends in 1983 with the 40-year old Ennis saying, "Jack, I swear---". You might hope that this Ennis will meet somebody new. But the real story ends right where it began --- at least 15 years after Jack's death, with the present-day Ennis, an impoverished ranch hand in his mid-50s to late 60s, who lives alone in his trailer. He is recently unemployed and in need of work and a place to stay. "Yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream."
Which is not to say that the arc doesn't change once we have reached full circle. But we should note that in the end, Ennis WAS changed/different. Nobody who has loved remains the same.
You cite here the ss, and not the movie per se. Even in the ss, we see that he was considering staying with Jr. for a while -- that in itself signifies some change, don't you think? To the Ennis of a few years back, this probably would have been unthinkable...
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According to the author the story is not a tale of gay cowboys or lonely sheep herders. "It is a story of destructive rural homophobia." That is what the story is about. That is the point of the story.
You might think the story ends in 1983 with the 40-year old Ennis saying, "Jack, I swear---". You might hope that this Ennis will meet somebody new. But the real story ends right where it began --- at least 15 years after Jack's death, with the present-day Ennis, an impoverished ranch hand in his mid-50s to late 60s, who lives alone in his trailer. He is recently unemployed and in need of work and a place to stay. "Yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream."
Wow, I can hardly believe this thread is stilling running and producing so many poignant posts.
First of all, before responding to Brach, please let me state that I agree with FlwrChild in this post:
I agree. I think one of the most impressive things about this story is that it is perfect the way it is, and because of this it makes us want more for those boys, because AP (and Ang & crew) brought them and their love to life in a way that we just can't help caring about them and wanting them to be happy. It's also wonderful to think that out of the lessons learned from what they went through, some people might actually be able to make positive changes in their own lives.
To think that all of this came out of a short story about two lonely sheep herders. Sigh...thanks AP. :c)
As I mentioned earlier, I don't think Jack's love worn out, because even to the end he said I wish I knew how to quit you, not that he was quitting Ennis. His love was not worn out, but his endurance was. He could only hold on to a dream for so long, watching his true love suffer from the consequences of childhood fears for so long, and endure the isolation from that fear for so long.
Brach is perfectly correct to point out that Annie Proulx wrote a story about homophobia in rural west, and Heath Ledger portrayed a poverty stricken homophobic ranch hand in love with a man. The movie is tragic precisely because the story is tragic in the society of the past, of that time and place.
Yet, at the same time, I believe the movie was deliberately hopeful at the end, interpreting the ending of the story with more optimism, as FlwrChild stated above, "...out of the lessons learned from what they went through, some people might actually be able to make positive changes in their own lives. " Ennis was more than just the "impoverished ranch hand in his mid-50s to late 60s, who lives alone in his trailer. He is recently unemployed and in need of work and a place to stay, and suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream."
True, Ennis derived immense importance to his memories and dreams of Jack. Are not dreams but our unconscious memories of what we remember of what we wish could have been?
True, Ennis lived alone and poor and unemployed as his ranch got sold and returned to the banker, and he needed to find another place. The poverty of his youth and adult life never left Ennis. Poverty is just as crushing as homophobia, but that's another story, another movie.
Brokeback Mountain the movie ended differently from the story because, in my opinion, the perfect scene of Ennis saying "Jack, I swear." with tears in his eyes, and tenderness in his heart, was so perfect that no more words needed saying. The deliberate final frame of the tiny window showing an amerillo sky over a wide endless plain represents the state of grace that Ennis achieved, with his daughter still devoted to him, and his love for Jack connects him with Jack's Ma. It is deliberately ambiguous because, in my opinion, I believe that Ang Lee chose to interpret the short story the same way that FlwrChild put it so beautifully above, that love transforms, and Ennis felt in the tiny closet at Jack's childhood room, the deep and immense love from those perfect days one summer on Brokeback Mountain. After twenty years of pain and loneliness, after days of grief and contemplating the unending solitude ahead, there in the claustrophobic closet, the moment of perfect clarity occurred to Ennis, breathing the fragrance of Jack's shirt, holding the fabric and touching the blood stained sleeves; the power of love finally broke down the wall of homophobia that kept Ennis captive all 'em years. Even Annie Proulx herself said of Heath, that his portrayal of Ennis is more true to Ennis than she had written him.
I agree 100% with you all that the story is perfect the way it is. As with all great art, it is not the art itself, but the interpretation of the art, which we mere mortals struggle to understand. The art stands alone above all, above us, above time...
There will never be another Brokeback Mountain.
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Thank you, lance. And thanks also to everyone for the many wonderful and poignant posts.
I would want to add that for me, the Art of BBM also stands with us. It mirros beautifully our many joys and many doubts.
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Andrew...thanks as usual for your wonderful post! :^^)
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Which is not to say that the arc doesn't change once we have reached full circle. But we should note that in the end, Ennis WAS changed/different. Nobody who has loved remains the same.
You cite here the ss, and not the movie per se. Even in the ss, we see that he was considering staying with Jr. for a while -- that in itself signifies some change, don't you think? To the Ennis of a few years back, this probably would have been unthinkable...
What arc? What full circle?
The film starts in 1963 and ends in 1984, leaving what happens to Ennis after 1984 to romantic speculation.
The ss starts in 1997, the year the story was published, and then unfolds like a flashback that runs from 1963 to 1983.
The film makes it clear that Ennis spent as much time with his daughters as he could. In May 1983, Ennis tells Jack that he sees his daughters about once a month. So why is it unthinkable or significant that Ennis would accept his daughter's wedding invitation?
And what to you mean by "to the Ennis of a few years back"? Do you think that final scene in the trailer takes place years after Jack's death? Let's examine the timeline.
Alma Jr. was born Sept. 1964. Jack and Ennis had their last trip May 1983. Ennis did know about the accident until sometime before December 1983. So Jack must have died between May and November 1983. At the end of the film, Alma Jr. is 19 and going to be married in June 1984. So the film ends no more than 12 months after Jack's death, by which time Ennis would have been about 40. So the film tells us what Ennis is like at 40.
But ss prologue tells us what Ennis is like at 54+, some 15+ years or more after Jack's death. What has changed in Ennis's life in those 15+ years since Jack's death except that Ennis and his elder daughter are now both 15+ years older, and she's married? He's still living alone in his trailer, still broke, still doing ranch work when and where he can, still dreaming of Jack. The ranch where he has been working is on the market. The owner has paid everyone off, shipped out the last of the horses, listed the property with a real estate broker. Ennis has to be packed and away from the place that morning. He has to find a place for his trailer. He might have to stay with his elder married daughter until he picks up another job.
Under the circumstances, it does not seem remarkable or significant that he would consider that he might have to stay with his elder married daughter until he picks up another job. Given the insecurity of jobs in ranch work, he's probably had to do it before. He couldn't have stayed with his elder daughter in the film because she was still living at home.
And another point. Jack died sometime between May and months before December 1983. So even if Ennis had been able to take time off work to meet Jack again in August 1983, we do not know that Jack would not have already been dead by then.
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Now I think we're veering more into whether or not Ennis's love wore out. That would probably be a better discussion for the Ennis' life after Jack's death thread. I'd be interested to see what people have to say. :)
Here's the link:
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=14780.msg853620#msg853620 (http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=14780.msg853620#msg853620)
Meanwhile, I have to say I do love to read the recaps from the SS as well as the different interpretations people take away from the movie. It's always interesting to me to see what each of us reads into certain passages or scenes. Thanks to all for sharing. ^f^
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Alma Jr. was born Sept. 1984.
It's more likely that it was 1964.
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I think he meant to say 1964.
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What arc? What full circle?
The film starts in 1963 and ends in 1984, leaving what happens to Ennis after 1984 to romantic speculation.
The ss starts in 1997, the year the story was published, and then unfolds like a flashback that runs from 1963 to 1983.
The film makes it clear that Ennis spent as much time with his daughters as he could. In May 1983, Ennis tells Jack that he sees his daughters about once a month. So why is it unthinkable or significant that Ennis would accept his daughter's wedding invitation?
And what to you mean by "to the Ennis of a few years back"? Do you think that final scene in the trailer takes place years after Jack's death? Let's examine the timeline.
Alma Jr. was born Sept. 1964. Jack and Ennis had their last trip May 1983. Ennis did know about the accident until sometime before December 1983. So Jack must have died between May and November 1983. At the end of the film, Alma Jr. is 19 and going to be married in June 1984. So the film ends no more than 12 months after Jack's death, by which time Ennis would have been about 40. So the film tells us what Ennis is like at 40.
But ss prologue tells us what Ennis is like at 54+, some 15+ years or more after Jack's death. What has changed in Ennis's life in those 15+ years since Jack's death except that Ennis and his elder daughter are now both 15+ years older, and she's married? He's still living alone in his trailer, still broke, still doing ranch work when and where he can, still dreaming of Jack. The ranch where he has been working is on the market. The owner has paid everyone off, shipped out the last of the horses, listed the property with a real estate broker. Ennis has to be packed and away from the place that morning. He has to find a place for his trailer. He might have to stay with his elder married daughter until he picks up another job.
Under the circumstances, it does not seem remarkable or significant that he would consider that he might have to stay with his elder married daughter until he picks up another job. Given the insecurity of jobs in ranch work, he's probably had to do it before. He couldn't have stayed with his elder daughter in the film because she was still living at home.
And another point. Jack died sometime between May and months before December 1983. So even if Ennis had been able to take time off work to meet Jack again in August 1983, we do not know that Jack would not have already been dead by then.
The arc/full circle => Ennis starts and ends alone.
I highlight two portions of your post that seems to be contradictory. Certainly, the prologue (added after the 1997 version) is long after Jack's death. What was described there is not romantic speculation.
And what you say about his (Ennis) having to live with Alma Jr. before -- like other things discussed here, what you say is possible, but remains speculation (although I would not call it romantic). Given Ennis's loner mentality, I find this highly improbable. To be sure, there is nothing in the movie, ss, or screenplay that explicitly says this.
As for the timeline of scenes surrounding Jack's death, even this is not clear-cut. The screenplay dates for the last scenes certainly add more to the confusion. See the thread about the timeline of the last scenes.
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=968.0
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Reply to comments by TPE. TPE's comments in BOLD:
I highlight two portions of your post that seems to be contradictory. Certainly, the prologue (added after the 1997 version) is long after Jack's death. What was described there is not romantic speculation.
What I meant is that there's some open space between what we read in the prologue (and elsewhere in the ss) and what some people are trying to believe. I think they are bouncing off the film more than the ss.
(Re the 1997 version, Proulx stated that she did include the prologue in the story she submitted to the New Yorker. She does not know why they omitted the prologue.)
And what you say about his (Ennis) having to live with Alma Jr. before -- like other things discussed here, what you say is possible, but remains speculation (although I would not call it romantic). Given Ennis's loner mentality, I find this highly improbable. To be sure, there is nothing in the movie, ss, or screenplay that explicitly says this.
The prologue establishes that Ennis might have to stay with his elder married daughter until he picks up another job.
Why would you presume he has never found himself in this situation before? It would seem highly improbable that he has not found himself in this situation before, given the seasonality of ranch work, the loss of ranch jobs as more and more ranches fold, and the reluctance of ranchers to hire antique cowboys due to the increased legal requirements and the costs of providing disability, medical and other benefits for ranch workers.
I don't take Ennis's "loner mentality" as a given. And even if I did, it seems to me that "loner mentality" is a vague diagnosis with quite variable symptoms. Even a supposed "loner" might visit or stay with his daughter. Indeed, Ennis saw his daughters about once a month.
As for the timeline of scenes surrounding Jack's death, even this is not clear-cut. The screenplay dates for the last scenes certainly add more to the confusion. See the thread about the timeline of the last scenes.
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=968.0.
Oh, don't even get me started on the odd timeline of the for-publication-October-2005 screenplay in "Story to Screenplay". It's not clear that the film even followed that timeline. The film itself has inconsistencies with its own timeline.
Even the ss has an inconsistency in it's own timeline. We read that the final trip occured May 1983, but it must have been 1982 if Alma Jr was really 17 and Jack's boy was really 15.
I see no compelling reason not to apply the basic ss timeline to the film.
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I personally do not like the SS; I only go with the movie. I try not to get bogged down with the timelines, but that's just me.
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Reply to comments by TPE. TPE's comments in BOLD:
I highlight two portions of your post that seems to be contradictory. Certainly, the prologue (added after the 1997 version) is long after Jack's death. What was described there is not romantic speculation.
What I meant is that there's some open space between what we read in the prologue (and elsewhere in the ss) and what some people are trying to believe. I think they are bouncing off the film more than the ss.
(Re the 1997 version, Proulx stated that she did include the prologue in the story she submitted to the New Yorker. She does not know why they omitted the prologue.)
Well, both the film and the short story are separate works of art -- although they are co-dependent. The film is more lyrical and softer, whereas the ss is more visceral and more powerful. Both correctly leave certain things uncertain, and it is part of our reaction to the movie and the ss to "speculate" on what could have been.
And what you say about his (Ennis) having to live with Alma Jr. before -- like other things discussed here, what you say is possible, but remains speculation (although I would not call it romantic). Given Ennis's loner mentality, I find this highly improbable. To be sure, there is nothing in the movie, ss, or screenplay that explicitly says this.
The prologue establishes that Ennis might have to stay with his elder married daughter until he picks up another job.
Why would you presume he has never found himself in this situation before? It would seem highly improbable that he has not found himself in this situation before, given the seasonality of ranch work, the loss of ranch jobs as more and more ranches fold, and the reluctance of ranchers to hire antique cowboys due to the increased legal requirements and the costs of providing disability, medical and other benefits for ranch workers.
I don't take Ennis's "loner mentality" as a given. And even if I did, it seems to me that "loner mentality" is a vague diagnosis with quite variable symptoms. Even a supposed "loner" might visit or stay with his daughter. Indeed, Ennis saw his daughters about once a month.
If we are to talk about the movie, Ennis explicitly says that he had been forced to quit jobs previously in order to meet Jack. In those cases, he always dealt with them alone -- not asking help from Jack or any other person (at least as far as we can tell). This mentality is developed early on, when Ennis refuuses to borrow money from Jack. We also see it later on, when he refuses Alma' Jr.s offer to live with him and help him in his day-to-day affairs. Many incidents along the way (all prior to jack's death) establish that Ennis never wanted any outside help to deal with his problems.
But as I said, nothing is explicitly stated. One can only infer. Your opinion is just as good as mine.
As for the timeline of scenes surrounding Jack's death, even this is not clear-cut. The screenplay dates for the last scenes certainly add more to the confusion. See the thread about the timeline of the last scenes.
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=968.0.
Oh, don't even get me started on the odd timeline of the for-publication-October-2005 screenplay in "Story to Screenplay". It's not clear that the film even followed that timeline. The film itself has inconsistencies with its own timeline.
Even the ss has an inconsistency in it's own timeline. We read that the final trip occured May 1983, but it must have been 1982 if Alma Jr was really 17 and Jack's boy was really 15.
I see no compelling reason not to apply the basic ss timeline to the film.
This is precisely my point, as I had said in the first part of the post. There are inconsistencies in both of them. And certainly, it is not clear what timeline the film followed in the last scenes, although they follow the scenes in the screenplay closely enough.
But rather than look at this as a fault, look at it as an invitation to see things differently. The ambiguities of the ss and the film are among their greatest attributes. LIke life, things are often in a blur. And like life, the unfolding of events can be seen differently, even though we are talking about the same events.
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I personally do not like the SS; I only go with the movie. I try not to get bogged down with the timelines, but that's just me.
Well, there is certainly room to love both. ;) But you have to take them as separate works of art, with their own strengths and limitations. And yes, it is good not to get bogged down with the details. There is room enough for personal interpretation.
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Well, both the film and the short story are separate works of art -- although they are co-dependent. The film is more lyrical and softer, whereas the ss is more visceral and more powerful. Both correctly leave certain things uncertain, and it is part of our reaction to the movie and the ss to "speculate" on what could have been.
The term "codependent" would not apply since that term refers to a kind of disfunctional relationship between two persons. The written story (ss) IS the story. The film is merely a dramatic retellling of that story, in words, pictures and music. The film is faithful to the ss, even preserving much of the ss dialogue or deriving dialogue from the narrative. But the written story remains the final authority when it comes to filling in "gaps". The film does not look more than a year beyond Jack's death. But the ss prologue describes Ennis 15 years after Jack's death.
If we are to talk about the movie, Ennis explicitly says that he had been forced to quit jobs previously in order to meet Jack. In those cases, he always dealt with them alone -- not asking help from Jack or any other person (at least as far as we can tell).
OK. Let's talk about what film Ennis actually said, what ss Ennis said in the same scene, how they differ, what changed between the early days and 1983, why he used to be able to quit jobs in the early days but can't quit in 1983, and why the loss of a job in 1997 meant that might HAVE TO STAY with his elder married daughter.
Film Ennis says: "Jack, I gotta work. Huh? In them earlier days I just quit the job. You forget what it's like bein' broke all the time.
You ever hear of child support? And I'll tell you this. I can't quit this one. And I can't get the time off."
SS Ennis says virtually the SAME thing: "Jack, I got a work. Them earlier days I used a quit the jobs. You got a wife with money, a good job. You forget how it is bein broke all the time. You ever hear a child support? I been payin out for years and got more to go. Let me tell you, I can't quit this one. And I can't get the time off."
What Ennis means is that in earlier days he could AFFORD to quit a job, presumably because it was easier to find a new job and/or because his expenses were less and he could make a paycheck last until he found a new job. But now, in 1983, ranch jobs are harder to find, the cost of living and child support payments are higher and the size of his ranch hand's paycheck has not kept up with inflation. He says he's broke all the time! So he's living from paycheck to paycheck. Therefore, he cannot afford to be without a paycheck. And at this time in his life, he does not have a daughter he can stay with. That's why he can't quit the job.
Indeed, we read that after the divorce "Ennis went back to ranch work, hired on here and there, not getting much ahead but glad enough to be around stock again, free to drop things, quit if he had to, and go into the mountains at short notice." In other words, in earlier days, Ennis could afford to quit a job. Back then ranch work was easier to come by and his expenses were lower.
By the time of the prologue, 1997, ranch jobs are even more scarce than they were in 1983, especially for antique cowboys. Space rent for his trailer, utilities, groceries and other expenses have continued to rise with inflation, yet his real income has decreased. That is why he might HAVE TO STAY with his married daughter until he picks up another job. Whether he actually has to stay with her depends on how long he can hold out until he picks up another job.
This mentality is developed early on, when Ennis refuuses to borrow money from Jack.
That's an interesting spin. But this does not establish that Ennis has a "loner mentality". In the 1st place, Ennis never said he needed money. In the 2nd place, he never asked Jack for money. In the 3rd place, Jack offer was conditional: "I can spare a loan if you're short on cash." Apparently Ennis was not short on cash because he declined, saying, "I don't need your money! Huh? I ain't in the poorhouse!" Why would Ennis accept a loan, if he doesn't need the money?
We also see it later on, when he refuses Alma' Jr.s offer to live with him and help him in his day-to-day affairs.
Alma Jr.'s offer was more of a request than an offer. You're spinning things to make it sound like Ennis flatly refused her request without explanation and that he really didn't want her around. He said, "You know I ain't set up for that. With the roundup coming, I won't ever be home...I ain't saying I wouldn't..." Presumably Ennis lives in a tiny 1-room, single-bed trailer like the one we saw at the end of the film. Just where would his daughter sleep?
Many incidents along the way (all prior to jack's death) establish that Ennis never wanted any outside help to deal with his problems.
I don't see a pattern that suggests that Ennis never wanted any outside help to deal with his problems.
If Ennis never wanted any outside help to deal with his problems, then why did he ask his boss for time off for the May 1983 trip, and, after he returned from that trip, for time off for another trip in August 1983? (Ennis must have asked for time off in August because he sent Jack a postcard confirming that November still looked like the first chance.)
Ennis complained that Aguirre was cutting them out of a month's pay, and Jack said he could spare him a loan IF he was short on cash.
Apparently Ennis was not short on cash since he declined, saying, "I don't need you're money, I ain't in the poorhouse." So Jack was not helping Ennis deal with a problem because Ennis never said he needed money. Why would Ennis accept a loan if he doesn't need money?
Alma Jr. requested (not offered) to live with Ennis, said she'd be a big help around the trailer. But she was not helping Ennis deal with a problem because there was no evidence that he had a problem. Moreover, there was no place for her to sleep, and with the roundup coming, he wouldn't even be home.
But as I said, nothing is explicitly stated. One can only infer. Your opinion is just as good as mine.
So you say.
This is precisely my point, as I had said in the first part of the post. There are inconsistencies in both of them. And certainly, it is not clear what timeline the film followed in the last scenes, although they follow the scenes in the screenplay closely enough.
But rather than look at this as a fault, look at it as an invitation to see things differently. The ambiguities of the ss and the film are among their greatest attributes. LIke life, things are often in a blur. And like life, the unfolding of events can be seen differently, even though we are talking about the same events.
The film timeline I have given is accurate and, except for minor discrepancies noted below, consistent with the ss timeline.
According to the screenplay, when Ennis and Jack meet in 1963, Ennis is "about 20" and Jack is 20. Lureen states that Jack was "only 39 years old" when he died. But because screenplay Jack was 20 in summer 1963, the screenplay says it's 1982 (=1963+39-20) when Ennis gets the postcard stamped DECEASED, calls Lureen and visits Jack's folks.
But in interviews, the screenwriters and director stated that Jack and Ennis were both 19 when they met in summer 1963. Therefore, if, as Lureen stated, Jack was 39 years old when he died, then he must have died in 1983 (=1963+39-19).
So the screenplay timeline will not always agree with the timelines of the film or ss when those timelines assume that in summer 1963 Ennis was "about 20" and Jack "20".
In the screenplay, the trailer scenes occur in 1984 and Alma Jr. is 19, consistent with her ss birthday in Sept. 1964. No reason to believe the film's trailer scenes do not occur in same year.
So as I stated before, the film's trailer scenes occur withing 12 months of Jack's death.
The only timeline inconsistency in the ss is the very minor one I cited. It is easily removed by simply correcting the ages of the children. This change would not have any material effect on the story or timeline.
Minor inconsistencies between film and ss:
Film Ennis gets married in November instead of December.
Film Ennis and Jack are reunited on Sept. 24, 1967 instead of June 24.
Ennis's younger daughter is called Jenny instead of Francine.
Film timeline problem: On 9/24/1967 film Jack says he has a boy ("Bobby") 8 months old. But Jack didn't meet Lureen until August 1966, so Bobby couldn't be more than 4 mos. old.
The existence of minor inconsistencies does not mean that everything is ambiguous or indeterminate. Nor should it be construed as an open invitation to private revelations or a license to indulge in speculation that disregards, contradicts or is not supported by information in the story.
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The term "codependent" would not apply since that term refers to a kind of disfunctional relationship between two persons. The written story (ss) IS the story. The film is merely a dramatic retellling of that story, in words, pictures and music. The film is faithful to the ss, even preserving much of the ss dialogue or deriving dialogue from the narrative. But the written story remains the final authority when it comes to filling in "gaps". The film does not look more than a year beyond Jack's death. But the ss prologue describes Ennis 15 years after Jack's death.
We can agree to disagree here. As in all the arts, there is such as thing as cross-fertilization. Just because something is based or derived from another does not necessarily give the originator the authority you speak of. As I said to another member a long time ago, this is not a question of biblical exegesis.
Again, you cannot say "more than a year beyond Jack's death." If you follow the screenplay and what is impled in the scene with Jr. (the 2 years lag from Troy to Kurt), it would be closer to 2 years. But in the final analysis, it is more vague than you make it out to be.
OK. Let's talk about what film Ennis actually said, what ss Ennis said in the same scene, how they differ, what changed between the early days and 1983, why he used to be able to quit jobs in the early days but can't quit in 1983, and why the loss of a job in 1997 meant that might HAVE TO STAY with his elder married daughter.
Film Ennis says: "Jack, I gotta work. Huh? In them earlier days I just quit the job. You forget what it's like bein' broke all the time.
You ever hear of child support? And I'll tell you this. I can't quit this one. And I can't get the time off."
SS Ennis says virtually the SAME thing: "Jack, I got a work. Them earlier days I used a quit the jobs. You got a wife with money, a good job. You forget how it is bein broke all the time. You ever hear a child support? I been payin out for years and got more to go. Let me tell you, I can't quit this one. And I can't get the time off."
What Ennis means is that in earlier days he could AFFORD to quit a job, presumably because it was easier to find a new job and/or because his expenses were less and he could make a paycheck last until he found a new job. But now, in 1983, ranch jobs are harder to find, the cost of living and child support payments are higher and the size of his ranch hand's paycheck has not kept up with inflation. He says he's broke all the time! So he's living from paycheck to paycheck. Therefore, he cannot afford to be without a paycheck. And at this time in his life, he does not have a daughter he can stay with. That's why he can't quit the job.
Indeed, we read that after the divorce "Ennis went back to ranch work, hired on here and there, not getting much ahead but glad enough to be around stock again, free to drop things, quit if he had to, and go into the mountains at short notice." In other words, in earlier days, Ennis could afford to quit a job. Back then ranch work was easier to come by and his expenses were lower.
By the time of the prologue, 1997, ranch jobs are even more scarce than they were in 1983, especially for antique cowboys. Space rent for his trailer, utilities, groceries and other expenses have continued to rise with inflation, yet his real income has decreased. That is why he might HAVE TO STAY with his married daughter until he picks up another job. Whether he actually has to stay with her depends on how long he can hold out until he picks up another job.
But by the time of the last confrontation, Ennis clearly had difficulty finding replacement jobs, do you admit this? Then why did he continue to say no to Alma Jr. and refuse any help from Jack?
That's an interesting spin. But this does not establish that Ennis has a "loner mentality". In the 1st place, Ennis never said he needed money. In the 2nd place, he never asked Jack for money. In the 3rd place, Jack offer was conditional: "I can spare a loan if you're short on cash." Apparently Ennis was not short on cash because he declined, saying, "I don't need your money! Huh? I ain't in the poorhouse!" Why would Ennis accept a loan, if he doesn't need the money?
Then why was he complaining that Aguirre's action was going to cut them off of another month's pay? It was clear from his conversation with Jack early on that he was saving up for the wedding with Alma. Is it too difficult to infer from this that he needed money? Even Jack assumed it, so why not us? It was perfectly logical.
Alma Jr.'s offer was more of a request than an offer. You're spinning things to make it sound like Ennis flatly refused her request without explanation and that he really didn't want her around. He said, "You know I ain't set up for that. With the roundup coming, I won't ever be home...I ain't saying I wouldn't..." Presumably Ennis lives in a tiny 1-room, single-bed trailer like the one we saw at the end of the film. Just where would his daughter sleep?
Why, I may ask, must you consider a different interpretation to be a "spin"? Such terminology suggests to me an inflexibility on your part to consider other viewpoints.
The above is plain semantics. There was an offer to help Ennis -- which was proffered in order to make the request more palatable. Does one have to exclude the other? The distinction is moot/academic.
I don't see a pattern that suggests that Ennis never wanted any outside help to deal with his problems.
If Ennis never wanted any outside help to deal with his problems, then why did he ask his boss for time off for the May 1983 trip, and, after he returned from that trip, for time off for another trip in August 1983? (Ennis must have asked for time off in August because he sent Jack a postcard confirming that November still looked like the first chance.)
Ennis complained that Aguirre was cutting them out of a month's pay, and Jack said he could spare him a loan IF he was short on cash.
Apparently Ennis was not short on cash since he declined, saying, "I don't need you're money, I ain't in the poorhouse." So Jack was not helping Ennis deal with a problem because Ennis never said he needed money. Why would Ennis accept a loan if he doesn't need money?
Alma Jr. requested (not offered) to live with Ennis, said she'd be a big help around the trailer. But she was not helping Ennis deal with a problem because there was no evidence that he had a problem. Moreover, there was no place for her to sleep, and with the roundup coming, he wouldn't even be home.
THis is certainly your opinion, and that is fine by me. I differ, nonetheless.
So you say.
The film timeline I have given is accurate and, except for minor discrepancies noted below, consistent with the ss timeline.
According to the screenplay, when Ennis and Jack meet in 1963, Ennis is "about 20" and Jack is 20. Lureen states that Jack was "only 39 years old" when he died. But because screenplay Jack was 20 in summer 1963, the screenplay says it's 1982 (=1963+39-20) when Ennis gets the postcard stamped DECEASED, calls Lureen and visits Jack's folks.
But in interviews, the screenwriters and director stated that Jack and Ennis were both 19 when they met in summer 1963. Therefore, if, as Lureen stated, Jack was 39 years old when he died, then he must have died in 1983 (=1963+39-19).
So the screenplay timeline will not always agree with the timelines of the film or ss when those timelines assume that in summer 1963 Ennis was "about 20" and Jack "20".
In the screenplay, the trailer scenes occur in 1984 and Alma Jr. is 19, consistent with her ss birthday in Sept. 1964. No reason to believe the film's trailer scenes do not occur in same year.
So as I stated before, the film's trailer scenes occur withing 12 months of Jack's death.
The only timeline inconsistency in the ss is the very minor one I cited. It is easily removed by simply correcting the ages of the children. This change would not have any material effect on the story or timeline.
Minor inconsistencies between film and ss:
Film Ennis gets married in November instead of December.
Film Ennis and Jack are reunited on Sept. 24, 1967 instead of June 24.
Ennis's younger daughter is called Jenny instead of Francine.
Film timeline problem: On 9/24/1967 film Jack says he has a boy ("Bobby") 8 months old. But Jack didn't meet Lureen until August 1966, so Bobby couldn't be more than 4 mos. old.
The existence of minor inconsistencies does not mean that everything is ambiguous or indeterminate. Nor should it be construed as an open invitation to private revelations or a license to indulge in speculation that disregards, contradicts or is not supported by information in the story.
I don't want to change the subject of this thread to a discussion of the timeline, so let it suffice to note one point. As I said in the timeline thread, your objection about Jack's age at the time of his death (noted by others previously) can be explained away by saying that Jack died prior to his birthday, which makes him between 39 and 40 at the time of his death. Age is not a step function, although for convenience, we don't say we are 40 even though we are a day away from being 40.
I would also say that the ss also had ambiguities, but this is the subject of another thread.
As much as you or I would want to argue about finer points, it is clear to me that there are things in the ss and film intentionally left ambiguous and unanswered. And why not? As I said in my previous post, it can be as much a strength as a weakness. I believe it to be a strength more than a weakness. Did we really have to know Ennis's fate after Jack's death? No. Can we speculate and discuss what may or could have been? A definite yes. Is there one answer? A definite no. It is as simple as that.
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Wow, the discussion here is amazing. So many gems.
The term "codependent" would not apply since that term refers to a kind of disfunctional relationship between two persons. The written story (ss) IS the story. The film is merely a dramatic retellling of that story, in words, pictures and music. The film is faithful to the ss, even preserving much of the ss dialogue or deriving dialogue from the narrative. But the written story remains the final authority when it comes to filling in "gaps". The film does not look more than a year beyond Jack's death. But the ss prologue describes Ennis 15 years after Jack's death.
I disagree with you Brach on two counts here.
Firstly, co-dependent is an apt description of Ennis and Jack. Their relationship is indeed dysfunctional in the sense that it is crippled by Ennis' homophobia. And Jack's complacent, albeit loving, acquiesce to his fear of sharing a sweet life together, is enabling Ennis' fear.
The relationship between the short story and the movie, in the words of the authors, is that of bones and flesh. The short story provided the bones and framework, while the movie was the flesh that gave it fulfillment. I have no doubt that Annie Proulx approved of the changes in the movie. For example, the motel scene was moved from its sequence in the short story. Ang Lee insisted on the movie's sequence of story telling, and Annie Proulx later admitted to it being more powerful in the moving picture medium. When the medium changes, the story has to adapt, or it losses the spirit. It is not the letter of the law that is important, but the spirit of it. Ang Lee et al, observed the spirit of Brokeback Mountain. Cassie and Randall were introduced to flesh out parts of the short story that was implied but never made explicit. The conversation between the spouses were also made more explicit to illustrate the other sides of the dysfunctional relationship that caused much pain in Loreen and Alma.
OK. Let's talk about what film Ennis actually said, what ss Ennis said in the same scene, how they differ, what changed between the early days and 1983, why he used to be able to quit jobs in the early days but can't quit in 1983, and why the loss of a job in 1997 meant that might HAVE TO STAY with his elder married daughter.
Film Ennis says: "Jack, I gotta work. Huh? In them earlier days I just quit the job. You forget what it's like bein' broke all the time.
You ever hear of child support? And I'll tell you this. I can't quit this one. And I can't get the time off."
SS Ennis says virtually the SAME thing: "Jack, I got a work. Them earlier days I used a quit the jobs. You got a wife with money, a good job. You forget how it is bein broke all the time. You ever hear a child support? I been payin out for years and got more to go. Let me tell you, I can't quit this one. And I can't get the time off."
What Ennis means is that in earlier days he could AFFORD to quit a job, presumably because it was easier to find a new job and/or because his expenses were less and he could make a paycheck last until he found a new job. But now, in 1983, ranch jobs are harder to find, the cost of living and child support payments are higher and the size of his ranch hand's paycheck has not kept up with inflation. He says he's broke all the time! So he's living from paycheck to paycheck. Therefore, he cannot afford to be without a paycheck. And at this time in his life, he does not have a daughter he can stay with. That's why he can't quit the job.
Indeed, we read that after the divorce "Ennis went back to ranch work, hired on here and there, not getting much ahead but glad enough to be around stock again, free to drop things, quit if he had to, and go into the mountains at short notice." In other words, in earlier days, Ennis could afford to quit a job. Back then ranch work was easier to come by and his expenses were lower.
By the time of the prologue, 1997, ranch jobs are even more scarce than they were in 1983, especially for antique cowboys. Space rent for his trailer, utilities, groceries and other expenses have continued to rise with inflation, yet his real income has decreased. That is why he might HAVE TO STAY with his married daughter until he picks up another job. Whether he actually has to stay with her depends on how long he can hold out until he picks up another job.
I agree with most of what you have stated here regarding Ennis' economic condition, except for the reason why he could not quit. I was told by others here that child-support was to continue until the children turned 19. It is clear that Ennis would consider it a duty that he could not break, to pay his child-support. As you so carefully outlined, Alma Jr and Jenny would not be 19 until after Jack's death. Ennis was obligated to hold his job and make his payments. "Earlier days", I think refers to the days before his divorce and child-support payments.
I also disagree with your interpretation of his refusal to Alma Jr's request to move in with him. That was a lifestyle consideration, not only of his own wish for solitude, which is undeniable, but also considering Cassie's involvement. I don't think there would be room enough for three people. Alma Jr knew this when she made the request, and Ennis (slow as he may be) probably knew this, too.
That's an interesting spin. But this does not establish that Ennis has a "loner mentality". In the 1st place, Ennis never said he needed money. In the 2nd place, he never asked Jack for money. In the 3rd place, Jack offer was conditional: "I can spare a loan if you're short on cash." Apparently Ennis was not short on cash because he declined, saying, "I don't need your money! Huh? I ain't in the poorhouse!" Why would Ennis accept a loan, if he doesn't need the money?
Alma Jr.'s offer was more of a request than an offer. You're spinning things to make it sound like Ennis flatly refused her request without explanation and that he really didn't want her around. He said, "You know I ain't set up for that. With the roundup coming, I won't ever be home...I ain't saying I wouldn't..." Presumably Ennis lives in a tiny 1-room, single-bed trailer like the one we saw at the end of the film. Just where would his daughter sleep?
I don't see a pattern that suggests that Ennis never wanted any outside help to deal with his problems.
If Ennis never wanted any outside help to deal with his problems, then why did he ask his boss for time off for the May 1983 trip, and, after he returned from that trip, for time off for another trip in August 1983? (Ennis must have asked for time off in August because he sent Jack a postcard confirming that November still looked like the first chance.)
I think there is a misunderstanding regarding the term "outside help". To me, asking for time off, is not asking for help; it is asking for what is due. Accepting financial payments, is altogether a different story. Even accepting the use of Don Wroe's cabin, would not be considered accepting outside help, because it would be a token of friendship, indeed possibly exchange of favors. There is no doubt of their financial disparity, yet Jack never offered to buy Ennis another jacket (the one he wore in the movie for twenty years). We cannot infer too much, but there is little doubt as to the independent spirit of Ennis that is typical of all cowboys.
Ennis complained that Aguirre was cutting them out of a month's pay, and Jack said he could spare him a loan IF he was short on cash.
Apparently Ennis was not short on cash since he declined, saying, "I don't need you're money, I ain't in the poorhouse." So Jack was not helping Ennis deal with a problem because Ennis never said he needed money. Why would Ennis accept a loan if he doesn't need money?
Alma Jr. requested (not offered) to live with Ennis, said she'd be a big help around the trailer. But she was not helping Ennis deal with a problem because there was no evidence that he had a problem. Moreover, there was no place for her to sleep, and with the roundup coming, he wouldn't even be home.
[...]
But in interviews, the screenwriters and director stated that Jack and Ennis were both 19 when they met in summer 1963. Therefore, if, as Lureen stated, Jack was 39 years old when he died, then he must have died in 1983 (=1963+39-19).
So the screenplay timeline will not always agree with the timelines of the film or ss when those timelines assume that in summer 1963 Ennis was "about 20" and Jack "20".
[...]
The existence of minor inconsistencies does not mean that everything is ambiguous or indeterminate. Nor should it be construed as an open invitation to private revelations or a license to indulge in speculation that disregards, contradicts or is not supported by information in the story.
I have heard it referred to Ennis being 19 and Jack 20. But it is not important. As I said earlier, I believe the spirit of Brokeback Mountain is more important that the letter of the short story. It is my opinion, and you may not agree with it. It does not detract from our mutual enjoyment and admiration for a movie that is unique.
As for the assertion that "everything is ambiguous" and "license to indulge in speculation to disregards, contradicts", I have no idea what prompted such strong accusations. I merely asserted that the "ending" in the movie was left ambiguous. Indeed, the prologue in the short story is not so descriptive of Ennis outside of his dream and life in the trailer. There is no information regarding his continuing or lack of communication with his daughters, in-laws, etc. Great art always inspires imagination and it is permitted that we allow our imagination to soar. I agree that the flight path requires certain respect to the original and adhere to certain guidelines. However, an overly rigid adherence would be unreasonable, especially when predicated on the emphasis of a particular set of conditions that are but one among many possible variations.
I respect your emphasis on the poverty that Ennis must endure after Jack's death, but I respectfully disagree that your vision of it is the only possible one. Unless I am told otherwise by someone with the authority of Annie Proulx, I believe Ennis was so transformed by his visit to Lightning Flats, that his life thereafter was lived in honor of Jack, and not wasted as some might speculate in the ghostly dreams in a rundown trailer.
The act of putting those letters on the mailbox, the countenance of Ennis during Alma Jr. visit, all point to a very different Ennis from the prologue in the short story. Yet, Annie Proulx wrote to Heath Ledger to congratulate him, on his portrayal of Ennis as being more true to the character than she had written herself. If there is any doubt that the movie was more than the short story, then this is proof indeed that the author of the short story admitted to the creative genius of the man who gave us Ennis Del Mar on the silver screen that is superior to the Ennis Del Mar that is on paper.
Just my two cents, for what's it worth.
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Terrific posts, guys. It gives me a lot to think about. Andrew, you snuck in ahead of me and said some of what I was going to say but I'll try to sum up my thoughts briefly.
Actually, codependent can also mean simply “mutually dependent”, which is not necessarily unhealthy, but I digress.
In terms of what source material holds higher authority here, it is really a non-issue. There will be some people who have read the book, but not seen the movie, and some who will have seen the movie but not read the book. In which case, one has to rely on the version that one has been exposed to for developing ideas or theories about the story and its characters. Since both are stand alone entities, it’s all right for people to do this. Admittedly, I myself frequently refer back to the original SS to clarify certain points, but I wouldn’t want to tell anyone else that their conclusions or interpretations of the movie are wrong, as I do believe that everyone brings a little piece of him/herself to any story and I think that sharing these different ideas is a wonderful way to learn not just about the story in front of us but about each other as well.
Let’s all please remember, as tpe and lancecowboy indicate, that everyone is entitled to his own opinion and unless we’re talking about a very specific and immovable fact (their boss was Joe Aguirre, not Steve Benson/they worked on Brokeback Mountain/both got married, etc), we should simply agree to disagree and state our reasons, without a need to state it as right or wrong. I do very much appreciate everyone’s participation in this discussion. :)
And while my interpretation of Ennis after Jack differs from lancecowboy's, I see no need to elevate one opinion above the other. We are, after all, a discussion forum and if we all agreed on every point, it would be a pretty short discussion. ;)
Meanwhile, we really are veering off topic, as this thread is about the state of Jack’s love, which is admittedly influenced by Ennis and his own feelings, but let’s try not to delve too far into Ennis, which is a conversation I would happily continue in another thread. :c)
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Andrew...really good posts. I also agree that in the movie there are definite signs of good change for Ennis after the death of Jack.
*o) Do I understand that the main reason that Ennis didn't want Alma, Jr. to live with him is because she would find out more about Jack & Ennis' :f) trips?
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I think there is a misunderstanding regarding the term "outside help". To me, asking for time off, is not asking for help; it is asking for what is due. Accepting financial payments, is altogether a different story. Even accepting the use of Don Wroe's cabin, would not be considered accepting outside help, because it would be a token of friendship, indeed possibly exchange of favors. There is no doubt of their financial disparity, yet Jack never offered to buy Ennis another jacket (the one he wore in the movie for twenty years). We cannot infer too much, but there is little doubt as to the independent spirit of Ennis that is typical of all cowboys.
I so totally agree with you here, Andrew. You just said what I was gonna say. ^f^
For me, asking for some days off so you can go on vacation or go on a trip up the mountains is not asking for help. And even it is a right you have if you're working. When you ask to your boss for a week on Xmas or in summertime, is that asking for help? I don't think so.
I believe Ennis was so transformed by his visit to Lightning Flats, that his life thereafter was lived in honor of Jack, and not wasted as some might speculate in the ghostly dreams in a rundown trailer.
Ooouuch...that was me, Andrew. ;D ;D :^^)
Now, so we are supposed to not speculate, right? Not even once. But, Brach, friend, you did it here:
If Ennis never wanted any outside help to deal with his problems, then why did he ask his boss for time off for the May 1983 trip, and, after he returned from that trip, for time off for another trip in August 1983? (Ennis must have asked for time off in August because he sent Jack a postcard confirming that November still looked like the first chance.)
You don’t know for sure if Ennis asked again for time on August. Neither in the SS nor in the film we have a line that says that Ennis asked twice for time in August. So I think you’re speculating too. And if I remember well, in another thread you said that Jack had forgotten the shirts long time ago and that’s why he didn’t take them with him (I strongly disagree with that). But, once more time, you don’t have any line in the SS or in the script that support your theory. See? We all are in the same team. ^f^
I love this place because here we respect each other opinions and because people talk about BBM from heart. We don’t try to dissect it like it was a laboratory’s rat. We all are normal people who simply talk about how we see Ennis and Jack, about how we feel them. Nothing else.
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Wow - this thread is livening up! I hope the timelines discussions are resumed on the appropriate threads as those threads, after I went to them, lacked the many details that had been showing up here.
But, to the topic here, of whether Jack's love wore out, IMO, there's not a chance in the world. Yes, in the film, we do see that bitter look on Jack's face, replacing the dreamy look of the remembered DE, but that pointed to some kind of bitter frustration moving to a practical resolution: Randall.
But I can't believe that even if Randall had moved to Lightning Flat, Jack wouldn't have dumped him for Ennis should Ennis have ever committed, at long last. Jack was willing to dump his wife and child, and am fairly sure Randall would have been just as quickly abandoned. Jack's great love was Ennis- there was no other.
But, going further into what really happened, I tend to believe Jack when he told Ennis he was having an affair with the ranch foreman's wife and could get killed for it. Because I think he was being typically Jack and fooling around with LaShawn and Randall both, and just didn't bother to tell Ennis the full story. We should remember, both husband and wife were attracted to him.
My impression, just based on the light inferences of that possibility, in the film, was that when Jack made the offer to Randall, the juggling fell apart, and Randall found out, he'd been played. And was a part of the group of thugs who killed Jack. It was, to me, the obvious cause of a murder, if in fact there was one. Which would also explain Lureen's bored, rehearsed recital of the cover story meant to prevent enduring scandal.
All of that is just connecting dots that are few and far apart. But that Jack's love never wore out, I really feel sure of. Even his father knew "where Brokeback Mountain was" and in his snarl, conveyed he knew what it meant. Just as he started off: "Ennis Del Mar....he used to say..." The venom of the father, IMO, is further proof, there was no other love for Jack. He'd just come to the point he had take 2nd best, for awhile.
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We can agree to disagree here. As in all the arts, there is such as thing as cross-fertilization. Just because something is based or derived from another does not necessarily give the originator the authority you speak of. As I said to another member a long time ago, this is not a question of biblical exegesis.
If you wonder what happened to Ennis 15 years after Jack’s death, or what was on Ennis’s mind during his 4 year hiatus from Jack, you’ll find it in the ss but not the film. If you wonder whether Jack had really had a thing going with a rancher’s wife down in Childress, read the ss. If you wonder if Jack death was a real accident, read the ss. If you wonder why the old man was unhappy with Jack, and why he wouldn’t give up his ashes, read the ss.
If you want to know trivia, such as the names of Lureen’s parents, the name of her son, the name of Alma Jr’s fiance, the name of the woman Ennis was “putting the blocks to”, or the color of Jack’s or Ennis’s hair and eyes, see the film.
But the film will not give you any insights into the written story that are not contained in the written story itself. The film is merely a dramatic retelling of the written story in words, pictures and music. Apart from minor alterations for dramatic effect, the film is not inconsistent with the written story.
Again, you cannot say "more than a year beyond Jack's death." If you follow the screenplay and what is impled in the scene with Jr. (the 2 years lag from Troy to Kurt), it would be closer to 2 years. But in the final analysis, it is more vague than you make it out to be.
I can say it, I did say it, and I explained it very clearly. In interviews given after the release of the film, the screenwriters and directors stated that when Jack and Ennis meet they are both 19, contradicting the published screenplay which states that Jack was 20 and Ennis was about 20. If you correct the ages in the screenplay, then the year that Ennis gets the postcard, calls Lureen and visits Jack’s folks becomes 1983 instead of 1982. The screenplay gives correctly gives 1984 as the year when the Alma Jr. is 19 and comes to invite Ennis to her June wedding. In both ss and screenplay, she would have turned 19 in late 1983. There’s no reason for the film to invent timelines that are inconsistent with the ss. In the final analysis, the timeline is far less vague than you want it to be.
The number of years since Alma Jr. had dated Troy is irrelevant to the timeline and implies nothing. She said she had known Kurt for “about a year.” We don’t know how many boyfriends she had between Troy and Kurt, and apparently, neither did Ennis. Fathers don’t keep track of everyone their daughters used to date or when.
But by the time of the last confrontation, Ennis clearly had difficulty finding replacement jobs, do you admit this? Then why did he continue to say no to Alma Jr. and refuse any help from Jack?
Where did you get the idea that Ennis was looking, or should look, for a new job? If your boss says that you can’t take a vacation in August, that you have to defer it until November, do you automatically start looking for another job? And where do you get the idea that Ennis “continued” to say no to Alma Jr. and “continued” to refuse help from Jack? Please list the incidents that demonstrate a continuing pattern of saying no to Alma Jr. and refusing help from Jack.
Then why was he complaining that Aguirre's action was going to cut them off of another month's pay? It was clear from his conversation with Jack early on that he was saving up for the wedding with Alma. Is it too difficult to infer from this that he needed money? Even Jack assumed it, so why not us? It was perfectly logical.
As Ennis observed, Jack was also deprived of another month's pay. If Ennis has offered a loan to Jack, would Jack have accepted it?
Ennis was complaining because Aguirre’s action DID in fact deprive BOTH of them of another month’s pay. I might be complaining about that, too, if I had expected my job to continue through the end of the summer. But my complaining would not imply that I needed a loan from a coworker. It was nice of Jack to anticipate that Ennis MIGHT be short of cash. But Ennis told him he didn’t need it, and surely Ennis knows better than you, Jack or whether he needed a loan from Jack.
Why, I may ask, must you consider a different interpretation to be a "spin"? Such terminology suggests to me an inflexibility on your part to consider other viewpoints.
The above is plain semantics. There was an offer to help Ennis -- which was proffered in order to make the request more palatable. Does one have to exclude the other? The distinction is moot/academic.
Why do you persist in trying to establish a PATTERN of behavior from an isolated incident with no probative value? Why can’t you simply accept Ennis’s very plausible, very reasonable explanation to his daughter for declining her request (or, if you insist, offer)? It is clear that even though he would like to have her stay with him, his living quarters are not set up to accommodate her and he’s not going to be home. Where is Alma Jr. supposed in sleep in that tiny, 1-room trailer with a single bed? Ennis said to his daughter, “You know I ain’t set up for that”, so evidently even she knows this. Why can’t you accept it?
THis is certainly your opinion, and that is fine by me. I differ, nonetheless.
As I said, I don't see a PATTERN of behavior (or even a suggestion of a pattern of behavior) that suggests that Ennis NEVER wanted ANY outside help to deal with his problems. And the incidents you cite show only that Ennis’s didn’t need Jack’s money and that Alma Jr. would have no place to sleep in Ennis’s tiny 1-room trailer with a single bed.
I don't want to change the subject of this thread to a discussion of the timeline, so let it suffice to note one point. As I said in the timeline thread, your objection about Jack's age at the time of his death (noted by others previously) can be explained away by saying that Jack died prior to his birthday, which makes him between 39 and 40 at the time of his death. Age is not a step function, although for convenience, we don't say we are 40 even though we are a day away from being 40.
I pointed out that film Jack gives the incorrect age of his boy on 9/24/1967. I also pointed out during the May 1983 trip, the ss gives incorrect ages for Alma Jr. and Jack’s boy.
But I don’t recall objecting to Jack’s age (in any source) at the time of his death. Lureen (in ALL sources) stated that he was "only 39 years old". That is consistent with ss details, such as “neither of them was 20” when they met at start of summer 1963, last trip in May (spring) 1983, next trip planned for August 1983, then deferred to November 1983, and Ennis didn’t know about the accident until his postcard to Jack saying that November (1983) still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED.
Of course, if Jack was 20 when he met Ennis as stated in the published screenplay, instead of 19 as stated by the screenplay writers and director in interviews given after the film was released, then he could have died in 1981-1982 as one might infer from the published screenplay. But you must realize that published screenplay is differs from the film in many details.
I would also say that the ss also had ambiguities, but this is the subject of another thread.
Well, of course. It is, after all, a short story. But the story does not suffer because it fails to tell me the names of Lureen’s parents or the color of Jack’s eyes.
As much as you or I would want to argue about finer points, it is clear to me that there are things in the ss and film intentionally left ambiguous and unanswered. And why not? As I said in my previous post, it can be as much a strength as a weakness. I believe it to be a strength more than a weakness. Did we really have to know Ennis's fate after Jack's death? No. Can we speculate and discuss what may or could have been? A definite yes. Is there one answer? A definite no. It is as simple as that.
Nevertheless, some answers are better than others.
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Wow - this thread is livening up! I hope the timelines discussions are resumed on the appropriate threads as those threads, after I went to them, lacked the many details that had been showing up here.
But, to the topic here, of whether Jack's love wore out, IMO, there's not a chance in the world. Yes, in the film, we do see that bitter look on Jack's face, replacing the dreamy look of the remembered DE, but that pointed to some kind of bitter frustration moving to a practical resolution: Randall.
But I can't believe that even if Randall had moved to Lightning Flat, Jack wouldn't have dumped him for Ennis should Ennis have ever committed, at long last. Jack was willing to dump his wife and child, and am fairly sure Randall would have been just as quickly abandoned. Jack's great love was Ennis- there was no other.
But, going further into what really happened, I tend to believe Jack when he told Ennis he was having an affair with the ranch foreman's wife and could get killed for it. Because I think he was being typically Jack and fooling around with LaShawn and Randall both, and just didn't bother to tell Ennis the full story. We should remember, both husband and wife were attracted to him.
My impression, just based on the light inferences of that possibility, in the film, was that when Jack made the offer to Randall, the juggling fell apart, and Randall found out, he'd been played. And was a part of the group of thugs who killed Jack. It was, to me, the obvious cause of a murder, if in fact there was one. Which would also explain Lureen's bored, rehearsed recital of the cover story meant to prevent enduring scandal.
All of that is just connecting dots that are few and far apart. But that Jack's love never wore out, I really feel sure of. Even his father knew "where Brokeback Mountain was" and in his snarl, conveyed he knew what it meant. Just as he started off: "Ennis Del Mar....he used to say..." The venom of the father, IMO, is further proof, there was no other love for Jack. He'd just come to the point he had take 2nd best, for awhile.
Of course, Jack's love never wore out. Everyone knows that love springs eternal. Nevertheless, unsatisfactory relationships can and do end, especially if one of the parties finds someone else.
I don't think Jack would have said "I wish I knew how to quit you" if he had not already been considering it. Jack was resigned ("let be, let be") that his relationship with Ennis had not progressed much farther than it had that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis would not embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was a man he held. And Jack lied ("the sparks flying up with their truths and lies") to Ennis about having had an affair with the wife of a rancher. Ennis knew Jack not telling him about his relationships with other men ("...what I don't know, all them things I don't know..."). Within a few days after Jack had said "I wish I knew how to quit you" Jack told his folks he was divorcing his wife and returning with a ranch neighbor from Texas to build a place and help run the ranch. Jack had apparenrly made up his mind to quit Ennis. You know all this, yet still try to believe Jack would never have forsaken Ennis for another. Perhaps there is some open space between what you know and what you try to believe.
I would suggest that Lureen delivered the account of the accident "in a level voice" simply because she had had to repeat it many times to relatives and friends of Jack. No cover story. No conspiracy.
In any case, Jack's death was, in fact, an accident. The screenplay narrative states that flash of Jack being beaten is ENNIS'S Point of View. In an interview with Charlie Rose, BBM director Ang Lee confirmed that the flash of Jack being beaten was not an actual event, but merely what Ennis was feeling at the time. In the short story, "Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED." In other words, according to the ss, the BBM director, and the screenplay, Jack's death was an ACCIDENT !!!
Surely, Jack and his father didn't get along. But the source of his father's anger and resenment was that the son had moved to Texas, leaving the father to run the ranch by himself. That's why the father spoke angrily, saying, "I can't get know help out here!" Then he went on to recall how Jack used to TALK about coming back to the ranch, first with Ennis, and later with some other man. But the old man had heard such talk before and not believed it: "So he says. But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass." The old man's resentment that his son had moved to Texas instead of staying at the ranch to help run the place is the reason the old man said to Ennis: "I know where Brokeback Mountain is. He thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot." In the end the old man is determined to force Jack to stay in Lightning Flat: "Tell you what, we got a family plot and he's goin in it."
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Brach, I appreciate your meticulous attention to the detail of the timeline. However, the thread to do so is not here, but at this link:
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=968.0
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[...]
In any case, Jack's death was, in fact, an accident. The screenplay narrative states that flash of Jack being beaten is ENNIS'S Point of View. In an interview with Charlie Rose, BBM director Ang Lee confirmed that the flash of Jack being beaten was not an actual event, but merely what Ennis was feeling at the time. In the short story, "Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED." In other words, according to the ss, the BBM director, and the screenplay, Jack's death was an ACCIDENT !!!
[...]
I believe you are overstating the case, Brach. From the various interviews, and specifically the Charlie Rose interview, which I happened to have watched a week or so ago, I would say that the writers intended Jack's death as murder. At best, you can say the cause of death is ambiguous according to both the short story and the movie. I cannot recall any definitive information that points to an accident.
It is perfectly acceptable for each of us to decide what is the cause of death. I believe Ang Lee said in the same Charlie Rose interview that they deleted some of the tire iron scenes with exactly this purpose in mind. Perhaps you may find re-watching the interview would be helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb3xU4nrz10
The timestamp 15:00 is the segment that discusses the ambiguity of the cause of death. It directly contradicts what you wrote above.
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I so totally agree with you here, Andrew. You just said what I was gonna say. ^f^
For me, asking for some days off so you can go on vacation or go on a trip up the mountains is not asking for help. And even it is a right you have if you're working. When you ask to your boss for a week on Xmas or in summertime, is that asking for help? I don't think so.
Ooouuch...that was me, Andrew. ;D ;D :^^)
Now, so we are supposed to not speculate, right? Not even once. But, Brach, friend, you did it here:
You don’t know for sure if Ennis asked again for time on August. Neither in the SS nor in the film we have a line that says that Ennis asked twice for time in August. So I think you’re speculating too. And if I remember well, in another thread you said that Jack had forgotten the shirts long time ago and that’s why he didn’t take them with him (I strongly disagree with that). But, once more time, you don’t have any line in the SS or in the script that support your theory. See? We all are in the same team. ^f^
I love this place because here we respect each other opinions and because people talk about BBM from heart. We don’t try to dissect it like it was a laboratory’s rat. We all are normal people who simply talk about how we see Ennis and Jack, about how we feel them. Nothing else.
The theory that was advanced is that Ennis would NEVER seek ANY help to deal with his PROBLEMS. The "problem" I had in mind was how Ennis could get time off from work to meet with Jack. Ennis explained to Jack that getting time off from work was a very real problem. As Ennis told Jack, "Stoutamire is a hell-raiser and he raised hell about me takin the week." Indeed, Ennis had to turn to his boss to address Ennis's very real problem of getting time off to meet with Jack. I doubt that that's the kind of "problem" some of you had in mind, but it is arguably a real problem for Ennis to get time off from work to meet with Jack, and the only one Ennis could turn to for help with his problem was his boss. And if his boss offered Ennis time off, I doubt Ennis would refuse it.
My point is that Ennis does not pathologically reject help if he needs it. Like msot people, Ennis will seek help IF AND WHEN HE NEEDS IT, AND ACCEPT HELP, IF NEEDED, WHEN IT'S OFFERED. I see nothing in the film or ss to contradict that.
We read, "Ennis didn't know about the accident from months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED." Why would Ennis write to Jack that November STILL looked like the first chance unless he had checked with his boss again? A reasonable inference from the word "still" is that Ennis had checked with his boss again.
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I believe you are overstating the case, Brach. From the various interviews, and specifically the Charlie Rose interview, which I happened to have watched a week or so ago, I would say that the writers intended Jack's death as murder. At best, you can say the cause of death is ambiguous according to both the short story and the movie. I cannot recall any definitive information that points to an accident.
It is perfectly acceptable for each of us to decide what is the cause of death. I believe Ang Lee said in the same Charlie Rose interview that they deleted some of the tire iron scenes with exactly this purpose in mind. Perhaps you may find re-watching the interview would be helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb3xU4nrz10
The timestamp 15:00 is the segment that discusses the ambiguity of the cause of death. It directly contradicts what you wrote above.
That segment does not contradict me, directly or indirectly. Lee says the film reflects ENNIS'S uncertainty. At about 15:30 Lee states: "The movie takes [Ennis's] point of view" (which you perhaps spun in your mind into "Ennis was right"???) And in the interview I saw on TV, Lee stated, "[The flash of Jack being beaten] was just what Ennis was feeling at the moment."
In an earlier version of the screenplay, the writers misinterpreted the meaning of ss narrative "So now he knew it had been the tire iron" and spun it into "and now we know it too." That gave rise to a dead-Jack-in-a-ditch scene. That scene and the "and now we know it too" were both deleted.
Whether or not private revelations are acceptable, the facts are that (1) BBM director Ang Lee stated that the flash was just what Ennis was feeling at the time, (2) the screenplay narrative, written by the very same writers you refer to, CONFIRMS that the flash is "ENNIS'S POV", and (3) the short story narrative states "Ennis didn't know about the ACCIDENT."
Ennis "didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident."
If --- as the director and the screenplay BOTH agree --- the flash was merely Ennis's POV, then how could anyone conclude from the film that Jack's death was not an accident? Without that flash (which is merely Ennis's POV, not news-at-11), there's not a shred of evidence in the film to put the idea into anyone's head that Jack was murdered.
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That segment does not contradict me, directly or indirectly. Lee says the film reflects ENNIS'S uncertainty. At about 15:30 Lee states: "The movie takes [Ennis's] point of view" (which you perhaps spun in your mind into "Ennis was right"???) And in the interview I saw on TV, Lee stated, "[The flash of Jack being beaten] was just what Ennis was feeling at the moment."
In an earlier version of the screenplay, the writers misinterpreted the meaning of ss narrative "So now he knew it had been the tire iron" and spun it into "and now we know it too." That gave rise to a dead-Jack-in-a-ditch scene. That scene and the "and now we know it too" were both deleted.
Whether or not private revelations are acceptable, the facts are that (1) BBM director Ang Lee stated that the flash was just what Ennis was feeling at the time, (2) the screenplay narrative, written by the very same writers you refer to, CONFIRMS that the flash is "ENNIS'S POV", and (3) the short story narrative states "Ennis didn't know about the ACCIDENT."
Ennis "didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident."
If --- as the director and the screenplay BOTH agree --- the flash was merely Ennis's POV, then how could anyone conclude from the film that Jack's death was not an accident? Without that flash (which is merely Ennis's POV, not news-at-11), there's not a shred of evidence in the film to put the idea into anyone's head that Jack was murdered.
You are right. Ang Lee said the scenes are from Ennis' point of view. However, at the same time, he also stated that Jack's death is not necessarily an accident. I recall from various sources that Annie Proulx and the others all stated that Jack's death was murder. I may be wrong in my recollection; it has been a while since my visit to the discussion threads related to this topic. If we really care about this, we can dig up the original references. I am sure they are in the threads somewhere.
Personally, I never cared much for the exact cause of death, because as far as Ennis was concerned, from his point of view, it was not the tire iron that killed Jack, but their love for each other. Jack's death, from whatever cause, was a pivotal moment that made Ennis realize that he took Jack for granted. It was this guilt that was the catalyst for his transformation in Lightning Flat's tiny closet. As far as Ennis was concerned, Jack's love never worn out...to bring us back to topic. Jack's love was hanging in the closet for twenty years, and embraced by Jack's Ma. In return, Ennis embraced it, and hung them in HIS closet, for as long as it takes.
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Wow, the discussion here is amazing. So many gems.
I disagree with you Brach on two counts here.
Firstly, co-dependent is an apt description of Ennis and Jack. Their relationship is indeed dysfunctional in the sense that it is crippled by Ennis' homophobia. And Jack's complacent, albeit loving, acquiesce to his fear of sharing a sweet life together, is enabling Ennis' fear.
The relationship between the short story and the movie, in the words of the authors, is that of bones and flesh. The short story provided the bones and framework, while the movie was the flesh that gave it fulfillment. I have no doubt that Annie Proulx approved of the changes in the movie. For example, the motel scene was moved from its sequence in the short story. Ang Lee insisted on the movie's sequence of story telling, and Annie Proulx later admitted to it being more powerful in the moving picture medium. When the medium changes, the story has to adapt, or it losses the spirit. It is not the letter of the law that is important, but the spirit of it. Ang Lee et al, observed the spirit of Brokeback Mountain. Cassie and Randall were introduced to flesh out parts of the short story that was implied but never made explicit. The conversation between the spouses were also made more explicit to illustrate the other sides of the dysfunctional relationship that caused much pain in Loreen and Alma.
I agree with most of what you have stated here regarding Ennis' economic condition, except for the reason why he could not quit. I was told by others here that child-support was to continue until the children turned 19. It is clear that Ennis would consider it a duty that he could not break, to pay his child-support. As you so carefully outlined, Alma Jr and Jenny would not be 19 until after Jack's death. Ennis was obligated to hold his job and make his payments. "Earlier days", I think refers to the days before his divorce and child-support payments.
I also disagree with your interpretation of his refusal to Alma Jr's request to move in with him. That was a lifestyle consideration, not only of his own wish for solitude, which is undeniable, but also considering Cassie's involvement. I don't think there would be room enough for three people. Alma Jr knew this when she made the request, and Ennis (slow as he may be) probably knew this, too.
I think there is a misunderstanding regarding the term "outside help". To me, asking for time off, is not asking for help; it is asking for what is due. Accepting financial payments, is altogether a different story. Even accepting the use of Don Wroe's cabin, would not be considered accepting outside help, because it would be a token of friendship, indeed possibly exchange of favors. There is no doubt of their financial disparity, yet Jack never offered to buy Ennis another jacket (the one he wore in the movie for twenty years). We cannot infer too much, but there is little doubt as to the independent spirit of Ennis that is typical of all cowboys.
I have heard it referred to Ennis being 19 and Jack 20. But it is not important. As I said earlier, I believe the spirit of Brokeback Mountain is more important that the letter of the short story. It is my opinion, and you may not agree with it. It does not detract from our mutual enjoyment and admiration for a movie that is unique.
As for the assertion that "everything is ambiguous" and "license to indulge in speculation to disregards, contradicts", I have no idea what prompted such strong accusations. I merely asserted that the "ending" in the movie was left ambiguous. Indeed, the prologue in the short story is not so descriptive of Ennis outside of his dream and life in the trailer. There is no information regarding his continuing or lack of communication with his daughters, in-laws, etc. Great art always inspires imagination and it is permitted that we allow our imagination to soar. I agree that the flight path requires certain respect to the original and adhere to certain guidelines. However, an overly rigid adherence would be unreasonable, especially when predicated on the emphasis of a particular set of conditions that are but one among many possible variations.
I respect your emphasis on the poverty that Ennis must endure after Jack's death, but I respectfully disagree that your vision of it is the only possible one. Unless I am told otherwise by someone with the authority of Annie Proulx, I believe Ennis was so transformed by his visit to Lightning Flats, that his life thereafter was lived in honor of Jack, and not wasted as some might speculate in the ghostly dreams in a rundown trailer.
The act of putting those letters on the mailbox, the countenance of Ennis during Alma Jr. visit, all point to a very different Ennis from the prologue in the short story. Yet, Annie Proulx wrote to Heath Ledger to congratulate him, on his portrayal of Ennis as being more true to the character than she had written herself. If there is any doubt that the movie was more than the short story, then this is proof indeed that the author of the short story admitted to the creative genius of the man who gave us Ennis Del Mar on the silver screen that is superior to the Ennis Del Mar that is on paper.
Just my two cents, for what's it worth.
TPE was saying the ss and film are "co-dependent". As the term is normally understood, it would not apply. I'm not sure it would apply to the relationship between Jack and Ennis, either, even if we agree it's a dysfuntional relationship. While "codependency" is a term from popular psychology, I'm not going to twist it like a pretzel.
As I said, the film is a dramatic retelling --- or in the words of one of the screenwriters, "an adaptation" --- of the ss. Apart from a few minor differences introduced for dramatic effect, it remains faithful to the ss.
Right after the divorce, we read that "Ennis went back to ranch work, hired on here and there, not getting much ahead but glad enough to be around stock again, free to drop things, quit if he had to, and go into the mountains at short notice." The highlighted passage refers to earlier days AFTER THE DIVORCE when Ennis was "free to drop things, quit if he had to, and go into the mountains at short notice." Ennis was already obliged to pay child support.
I gave several reasons why Ennis could not afford to quit his job with Stoutamire. I know I mentioned child support. Ennis certainly did: "Jack, I got a work. Them earlier days I used a quit the jobs. You got a wife with money, a good job. You forget how it is bein broke all the time. You ever hear a child support? I been payin out for years and got more to go. Let me tell you, I can’t quit this one."
Interesting point about Cassie and lifestyle. I don't think she lived in Ennis's place or else she would not have been leaving notes at his place. Ennis explained to his daughter why she couldn't live with him. He told her, "You know I ain't set up for that." His daughter did not dispute this. Neither should we. If his place at that time was like the little trailer we saw, it wasn't big enough for two.
I've read every piece of fiction Proulx has published. Her stories tell it like it is, don't indulge happy endings or view life through rose colored glasses.
In her essay "Getting Movied", Proulx wrote "...the cast and the crew of this film, from the director down, had gotten into my mind and pulled out images...Especially did I feel this about Heath Ledger, who knew better than I how Ennis fet and thought..."
I don't see how anyone could be "more true to the character" than the person who created him. She also wrote that "in our time film can be more powerful than the written word."
In 1983 Ennis said he saw his daughters about once a month. So I don't find it remarkable that he would appear happy to see them. But the screenplay narrative for the scene in 1984 where Ennis's 19-year old daughter visits reads: "But his smile can't hide his regret and longing for the one thing he can't have, that he will never have." That screenplay narrative for the 1984 scene seems to anticipate the Ennis of the ss prologue ---Ennis as he is 15 years after Jack's death.
I didn't speculate that Ennis would be poor after Jack's death and living alone in a small trailer. It read it in the prologue which takes place 15+ years after Jack's death. The prologue likely inspired the scene of 19-year old Alma Jr. visiting Ennis at his trailer to invite him to her wedding.
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You are right. Ang Lee said the scenes are from Ennis' point of view. However, at the same time, he also stated that Jack's death is not necessarily an accident. I recall from various sources that Annie Proulx and the others all stated that Jack's death was murder. I may be wrong in my recollection; it has been a while since my visit to the discussion threads related to this topic. If we really care about this, we can dig up the original references. I am sure they are in the threads somewhere.
Personally, I never cared much for the exact cause of death, because as far as Ennis was concerned, from his point of view, it was not the tire iron that killed Jack, but their love for each other. Jack's death, from whatever cause, was a pivotal moment that made Ennis realize that he took Jack for granted. It was this guilt that was the catalyst for his transformation in Lightning Flat's tiny closet. As far as Ennis was concerned, Jack's love never worn out...to bring us back to topic. Jack's love was hanging in the closet for twenty years, and embraced by Jack's Ma. In return, Ennis embraced it, and hung them in HIS closet, for as long as it takes.
There were many differing opinions among cast and crew about the cause of Jack's death in the film. Proulx said it looked ambiguous to her. It's not at all astonishing that some film viewers might think that the flash represented a "news-at-11" depiction of how Jack actually died, instead of a window into Ennis's thoughts, as the director intended. (I'm reminded of the way comic books depict the thoughts of a character with white bubbles leading from his head.) Unless you've read "Ennis didn't know about the accident...he didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident" in the ss, or "ENNIS'S POV" in the screenplay narrative, the flash is at best ambiguous, which does match Ennis's own uncertainty about the cause of Jack's death. I thought the flash was a rather heavy-handed way to depict Ennis's thoughts.
Ennis's reaction upon hearing that Jack had told his folks he was divorcing Lureen and moving back to the LF ranch with a ranch neighbor was not quite what you'd expect. He reasoned that Jack MUST have been found out: "So now he knew it had been the tire iron." At that moment, Ennis was convinced that it was Jack's own indiscretion that led to his death. Jack's death confirmed for Ennis the truth of what he had told Jack back in 1967, "Two guys livin together? No."
My view about the significance to Jack of the shirts he hid in his closet is that they were a token of how much Ennis meant to him when they left Brokeback Mountain back in 1963. But they are not like a shrine that Jack trotted out everytime he visited LF, which, according to Jack's mother, was only once a year, for a week. In later years Jack must have more or less forgotten about the shirts; otherwise, he would have kept them at his home in Childress.
To Ennis, the shirts represent what he longs for, but cannot have. "He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.
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Brach ^f^,
even though I can agree on some of your explanations, I am a bit surprised by the way you enforce others to accept it. As tpe said -it is not a matter of biblical exegesis. We all have our interpretation of this beautiful love story.
The only thing that is common for all the Brokies is the strong impact that BBM had on us! I assume you are also deeply moved by it, otherwise you'd never know so much about it. And maybe, the way you want to present it to us, and to yourself is your own defence from the feelings that BBM woke up in you. :s)
Just thinking loud.... :*(
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I can say it, I did say it, and I explained it very clearly.
You know all this, yet still try to believe Jack would never have forsaken Ennis for another. Perhaps there is some open space between what you know and what you try to believe.
Hello Brach. ^f^
We are so off topic here and like other fellows said to you, we should discuss the time line and the SS and Ennis life in the right threads and not in this one. But well, this is a mod job, so I’m sure they’ll say a word soon.
I just want to tell you that you're showing so little respect for our opinions. We disagree or not, but we DO respect your opinions, and we don’t try to change your mind. But you are so trying to change our minds and you are writing your POV too and trying to make it the only and real truth for us to believe. You’ll say now that what you wrote is not your POV but what is in the SS, but let me tell you that if you are the only one here that agrees with your view of BBM, then maybe you could be wrong too. Like Barb said, unless we’re talking about a very specific and immovable facts, we have every right to think different from you, and we are gonna keep doing it, you like it or not. I just don’t think the way you talk people here, like you did in those bits I quoted above, is the right one. Please, respect our opinions and POV. It doesn’t matter if you believe in them or not, if you disagree or not, because you’re treating us like if we were stupid or something like that. Do you always talk like that when people don’t agree with you? You are not always the holder of the truth. We all see things in a different way and that should be respected. You are posting and posting again the very same things, saying the same words over and over again. What do you wanna get? That we all say that you’re right?
And lets not forget that, though the SS is the “mother” of BBM the film, we are discussing here the movie (the SS has another thread, like you well know), and Ang Lee said that his film was open to different interpretations.
For us, BBM is a life-changing experience, and thousands of people out there see it and interpret it from their own experiences. For you it’s just “a dramatic retelling”, like you say over and over. For us it’s more than that and we can see it, feel it and talk about it the way we feel is right for us. So if thousand of people out there think that Jack’s death was a murder (please, go and see LJ and the other forums) you should respect that, like that people respect that their fellows brokies think that Jack’s death was an accident. What you get if you prove right your POV? This just makes no sense to me. Why don’t you express your opinion without diminish or degrade other opinions? I have to tell you that I even could have agreed with you in some good points here if you’d expressed them with tolerance and respect for other POV’s.
How do you know that Jack didn’t held the shirts every time he visited LF? You say to us that we can't speculate but you do too. That fact that Jack didn’t take them with him doesn’t mean that he forgot about them. How can you be so sure about that? Is there any line in the SS that say that? In my opinion, and YES it’s only my opinion and I expect you to respect it like I do with yours, Jack never forgot about that and I can write a long post about it, but I’m not gonna do it here, because we all already said to you that we are off topic and there are other thread for it out there.
Please, let it be. And I also apologize if I've been rude. Sorry.
Thank you so much. ^f^
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Boy, this thread has certainly gotten interesting and brought out a number of different and speculative POV's, which I think is great. And I suggest that is how we should continue to look at them. Both the ss and the film were, and remain, in point of fact, ambiguous (if I may be permitted the use of the word) on a number of issues. And I think it important to remember this was by design. And becomes part of the greatness of both. Its wonderful that we can be spurred on to really think deeply about so many issues in the film. But, as said, so many t's were not crossed, so many i's not dotted, purposefully so. And all with the intent to make us think. We should continue to do this, and remember that each point of view is just that, each sacred to each person, and to be allowed by all.
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If you wonder what happened to Ennis 15 years after Jack’s death, or what was on Ennis’s mind during his 4 year hiatus from Jack, you’ll find it in the ss but not the film. If you wonder whether Jack had really had a thing going with a rancher’s wife down in Childress, read the ss. If you wonder if Jack death was a real accident, read the ss. If you wonder why the old man was unhappy with Jack, and why he wouldn’t give up his ashes, read the ss.
If you want to know trivia, such as the names of Lureen’s parents, the name of her son, the name of Alma Jr’s fiance, the name of the woman Ennis was “putting the blocks to”, or the color of Jack’s or Ennis’s hair and eyes, see the film.
But the film will not give you any insights into the written story that are not contained in the written story itself. The film is merely a dramatic retelling of the written story in words, pictures and music. Apart from minor alterations for dramatic effect, the film is not inconsistent with the written story.
On the contrary, the film expands on themes of the ss in a way that the ss never really developed or hinted at. Just because the film uses details in the ss as a springboard for expansion does not mean that it does not contain insights beyond the ss. This is a common mistake of people not well versed in Art Theory.
I can say it, I did say it, and I explained it very clearly. In interviews given after the release of the film, the screenwriters and directors stated that when Jack and Ennis meet they are both 19, contradicting the published screenplay which states that Jack was 20 and Ennis was about 20. If you correct the ages in the screenplay, then the year that Ennis gets the postcard, calls Lureen and visits Jack’s folks becomes 1983 instead of 1982. The screenplay gives correctly gives 1984 as the year when the Alma Jr. is 19 and comes to invite Ennis to her June wedding. In both ss and screenplay, she would have turned 19 in late 1983. There’s no reason for the film to invent timelines that are inconsistent with the ss. In the final analysis, the timeline is far less vague than you want it to be.
I have already answered this "inconsistency" at the end of the last post. This is moot/academic. You can say it, but it does not make you any more correct than any of the dissenting opinions here.
The number of years since Alma Jr. had dated Troy is irrelevant to the timeline and implies nothing. She said she had known Kurt for “about a year.” We don’t know how many boyfriends she had between Troy and Kurt, and apparently, neither did Ennis. Fathers don’t keep track of everyone their daughters used to date or when.
Implies nothing? It clearly indicates that Ennis had no real contact with his daughter the past 2 years.
Where did you get the idea that Ennis was looking, or should look, for a new job? If your boss says that you can’t take a vacation in August, that you have to defer it until November, do you automatically start looking for another job? And where do you get the idea that Ennis “continued” to say no to Alma Jr. and “continued” to refuse help from Jack? Please list the incidents that demonstrate a continuing pattern of saying no to Alma Jr. and refusing help from Jack.
This is a non sequitur. I simply ask: do you admit that Ennis increasingly found it difficult to find replacement jobs as he got older? yes or no?
As Ennis observed, Jack was also deprived of another month's pay. If Ennis has offered a loan to Jack, would Jack have accepted it?
Probably. He never had a problem with Ennis shooting the Elk for him, correct? But again, this is a non sequitur. And a question does not answer a question.
Ennis was complaining because Aguirre’s action DID in fact deprive BOTH of them of another month’s pay. I might be complaining about that, too, if I had expected my job to continue through the end of the summer. But my complaining would not imply that I needed a loan from a coworker. It was nice of Jack to anticipate that Ennis MIGHT be short of cash. But Ennis told him he didn’t need it, and surely Ennis knows better than you, Jack or whether he needed a loan from Jack.
Where in Heaven's name is all this leading too? The fact is: Ennis needed the money and Jack didn't. Period.
Why do you persist in trying to establish a PATTERN of behavior from an isolated incident with no probative value? Why can’t you simply accept Ennis’s very plausible, very reasonable explanation to his daughter for declining her request (or, if you insist, offer)? It is clear that even though he would like to have her stay with him, his living quarters are not set up to accommodate her and he’s not going to be home. Where is Alma Jr. supposed in sleep in that tiny, 1-room trailer with a single bed? Ennis said to his daughter, “You know I ain’t set up for that”, so evidently even she knows this. Why can’t you accept it?
As I said, I don't see a PATTERN of behavior (or even a suggestion of a pattern of behavior) that suggests that Ennis NEVER wanted ANY outside help to deal with his problems. And the incidents you cite show only that Ennis’s didn’t need Jack’s money and that Alma Jr. would have no place to sleep in Ennis’s tiny 1-room trailer with a single bed.
Frankly, I do not know what on earth you are talking about. Pattern of behavior? In any case, suppose I differ from you. Am I callling your opinion wrong? The answer is no. Likewise, I, as moderator, require your civility to everyone here by not stating that their views are wrong and are pure "romantic speculation" or "spin", just because they differ from yours. I do not request it. I demand it.
I pointed out that film Jack gives the incorrect age of his boy on 9/24/1967. I also pointed out during the May 1983 trip, the ss gives incorrect ages for Alma Jr. and Jack’s boy.
But I don’t recall objecting to Jack’s age (in any source) at the time of his death. Lureen (in ALL sources) stated that he was "only 39 years old". That is consistent with ss details, such as “neither of them was 20” when they met at start of summer 1963, last trip in May (spring) 1983, next trip planned for August 1983, then deferred to November 1983, and Ennis didn’t know about the accident until his postcard to Jack saying that November (1983) still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED.
Of course, if Jack was 20 when he met Ennis as stated in the published screenplay, instead of 19 as stated by the screenplay writers and director in interviews given after the film was released, then he could have died in 1981-1982 as one might infer from the published screenplay. But you must realize that published screenplay is differs from the film in many details.
The final cut of the film does not explicitly mention age. The screenplay is distinct from film and the ss, of course. But as lance said, this is already way out of topic.
Well, of course. It is, after all, a short story. But the story does not suffer because it fails to tell me the names of Lureen’s parents or the color of Jack’s eyes.
Nevertheless, some answers are better than others.
But do you wonder why so many of us here don't agree with you? That is fine, of course. I would not be so stupid or narrow-minded enough to claim that my opinion is better than your opinion.
But all this hairsplitting going nowhere has gone long enough.
Henceforth, let us limit ourselves to discussing the main topic of this thread: Did Jack's Love "Wear Out".
As moderator of this part of the forum, I will delete any post that:
1. persists in straying from the original topic.
2. shows any pig-headed disrespect for the opinions of others. We can agree to disagree. But remain civil. I am warning everybody.
I am speaking as moderator.
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But all this hairsplitting going nowhere has gone long enough.
Henceforth, let us limit ourselves to discussing the main topic of this thread: Did Jack's Love "Wear Out".
As moderator of this part of the forum, I will delete any post that:
1. persists in straying from the original topic.
2. shows any pig-headed disrespect for the opinions of others. We can agree to disagree. But remain civil. I am warning everybody.
I am speaking as moderator.
Yes it has and I will do the same. Since we're trotting out lines from the SS: "They were respectful of each other's opinions..." No one here is the "authority" on BBM and shouldn't assert themselves as such. Everyone adds their own unique feelings and interpretations to the movie/SS and for me, personally, they have only enhanced this experience.
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As moderator of this part of the forum, I will delete any post that:
1. persists in straying from the original topic.
2. shows any pig-headed disrespect for the opinions of others. We can agree to disagree. But remain civil. I am warning everybody.
I am speaking as moderator.
I could only agree
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I won't belabor the other issues outside the scope of this thread.
The two shirts in Lightning Flats, however, are central to the movie, and Jack's love, so I believe it is right to respond a little.
Brach, you speculate and infer that Jack forgot about the shirts.
It is clear from the scene in the movie, and the description in the short story, that the two shirts are carefully hidden in the least conspicuous corner of the small closet. It is clear also that Jack's Ma knew about them. No matter how many times a year or how often Jack visits his boyhood home, it is clear to me that Jack treasured those two shirts, as well as the little wooden horse and cowboy that Ennis made for him. It was front and center on his desk, and it was the first object that Ennis touched, and held with tears in his eyes.
There is a very simple reason why Jack never took the shirts to Childress. He did not meet Loreen until years later, and the shirts are already in its place. No need to move them. Childress is not his home; he never felt belonged, and the shirts would be difficult to hide, and to explain when found. The blood stains especially.
Jack's Ma knew about the shirts, and kept them unwashed. Jack had a good relationship with his Ma as victims of any bullies would do.
Jack's love for Ennis was captured in those two shirts, from Ennis' point of view. That's was the impact of his visit to Lightning Flats. He finally understood what it meant to be loved - to be treasured and NEVER forgotten. If he didn't know it, he learned it then.
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Nice post, Andrew. :c)
I hold the same opinion about whether or not Jack forgot about the shirts over the years. I see no reason to assume anything here, but could well imagine that he continued to sneak a peek over the years when visiting home. It's possible that he didn't but I'm inclined to think that he did. I feel the same way about why he would leave them in LF instead of taking them to Childress too. Kind of hard to explain that one to the wife, and why do so when you have a handy place to keep them where you have access to them if you should wish to?
As I have said before, I don't think that Jack's love wore out, though I think that he was pretty worn by the time he died (just as I don't necessarily think he was actually planning to move on, regardless of what he told his father - hence "I wish I knew how to quit you", not "That's it, I'm quitting you.") Just my opinion. And when you have so little in the way of tangible reminders of a great love, I would think that what you do have would stay in your mind. So yes, I think that Jack always remembered the two shirts, even if he wasn't thinking of them daily, and I believe that he always carried the spirit of what those shirts meant with him.
As to the figure on Jack's desk, I actually don't think that's the same one that Ennis was carving during their summer on Brokeback. I've watched the two scenes and the level and type of detail seemed different to me. More likely, this was a piece from his childhood that he'd kept, and he probably didn't have much need to use that desk when he visited so it wouldn't surprise me if he left some keepsakes there. Still, no way to be entirely sure so that's just my take. :)
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*** Deleted by Moderator ***
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Dear Brach - as a new member, you may not be aware that when the moderators were pointing to another thread, you could resurrect that thread as active by just posting to it. I am interested in your timelines and hope I can get that thread up, but, with all due respect, the moderators of this forum are not arbitrary, and are, themselves, some of the leading experts on BBM. And deserve all of our respect.
Back to this topic - it's always struck me how AP tossed off the day-to-day failures of Ennis and Jack, gaining for us, a credibility in them as real people, and then, punched us out with evidence of immortal love. Just in that, her wild swing from the mundane to the sublime, there is the answer, IMO, that Jack's love never wore out. Just his patience and hopes.
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I appreciate your comment, Tony, and thank you.
Regarding your point, I think the wild swings (from mundane to sublime -- very interesting way of putting it), you refer to certainly add to the overall effect, in that we the viewers also feel a sort of weariness that we can also easily translate to Jack. Although I agree with you that Jack's love never wore out, I can perhaps say that the constant battle wore him out -- emotionally as well as physically. Weariness of heart is nonetheless distinct from weariness in love, won't you agree?
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Yes, Thomas, I would definitely agree, and that was a very fine and important distinction. Weariness of heart. That's been suffered by so many, who still never stopped loving. Absolute bulls-eye!
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And I can tell you from personal experience that you can get very close to that "I wish I knew how to quit you" feeling and even think you're there and still somehow find a way to hold on. I choose to believe that this is what Jack did. Who knows what might have happened if he'd lived? Either way, up to the time that he died, I still think that love had a fighting chance in his heart. :c)
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Yes, Thomas, I would definitely agree, and that was a very fine and important distinction. Weariness of heart. That's been suffered by so many, who still never stopped loving. Absolute bulls-eye!
I do think that Jack's last look does show true weariness. Which is why the originator of this thread certainly did good in bringing this up. We can't be sure, of course. But I would think that a possible move with Randall can still be interpreted as a falling out of love. We can't be absolutely sure of our way of looking at this, but I think it is reasonable to say that affection and love for somebody doesn't go away all too easily, especially when you've been living a life of waiting for nearly 20 years...
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And I can tell you from personal experience that you can get very close to that "I wish I knew how to quit you" feeling and even think you're there and still somehow find a way to hold on. I choose to believe that this is what Jack did. Who knows what might have happened if he'd lived? Either way, up to the time that he died, I still think that love had a fighting chance in his heart. :c)
I think I know what you mean, flwrchild. I think a lot of us here have in some form or another lived it. People sometimes say that you can't be in and out of love at the same time. But I think reality is much more complicated than just on and off.
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I think I know what you mean, flwrchild. I think a lot of us here have in some form or another lived it. People sometimes say that you can't be in and out of love at the same time. But I think reality is much more complicated than just on and off.
That's for sure.
And say what you will about Randall but I don't think that he was ever a true contender for the top spot with Jack. I have no special basis for this, it's just what my gut says. Jack said during that last trip that he missed Ennis. And he was extraordinarily upset by hearing that August was cancelled. So I don't think that Randall held an elevated position going into that trip. And if Jack made some pronouncements shortly after the final confrontation, it is entirely possible that they were said in the heat of the moment or to achieve certain desired effects, especially with his father. I choose to wrap myself up in my Randall-didn't-matter blanket and stick with this assertion, as it is easier for my heart to handle. ;)
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I think the reason that I don't think that Randall meant that much to Jack was the look on his face when Randall propositioned him. I got the feeling he wanted to be sick. Certainly not a look of excitement. But on the other hand, I have to question why his old man mentioned him to Ennis. I think this is one of the biggest mysteries about BBM.
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I think the reason that I don't think that Randall meant that much to Jack was the look on his face when Randall propositioned him. I got the feeling he wanted to be sick. Certainly not a look of excitement. But on the other hand, I have to question why his old man mentioned him to Ennis. I think this is one of the biggest mysteries about BBM.
Again, this is interesting for me. Because I had not thought of him as looking sick. My impression was that he was weighing the proposition against his love for Ennis, because Randall would be different from a prostitute or a partner in casual sex, because he happened to be Jack's neighbor and that the proposition sounded more "planned out" than just a casual tryst/encounter. I though he was probably deciding whether this was something that would lead to trouble if Ennis ever found out. But this was just my impression, and reading your comment made me see that such a POV is quite probable.
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I also felt Jack was unhappy with Randall on the bench. Although he was the one who initiated the chatting and friendship, I think he was caught off-guard by Randall's proposition to the cabin. He did not expect it and was unsure how to continue. He was also thinking, "Was I that obvious?" What gave me away? He was probably thinking of Ennis' question, "You ever get the feeling that everyone know?" The love with Ennis was far different from his liaison with Randall. One is love between equals, the other is sex with someone who has position, prestige and power that he felt he did not have. If he was not killed, Jack would find the relationship difficult to continue, lest of all in Lightning Flats with the old man, and the struggling poverty. I doubt Jack ever believed Randall would consent to leaving his nice setup to go ranching with him. The only possible reason Jack would mention Randall to the old man was to shut him up in a moment of anger, when the old man twist Jack's old bragging about Ennis into something like, "it never was going to happen is it, or he'd be here by now" Jack's Ma knew this and was compassionate to Ennis from beginning to end.
Jack was in love with Ennis from SNIT onwards just as Ennis was without knowing it until four years later in the reunion embrace. What Ennis denied continually, Jack embraced and never let go. Even after the final confrontation, he watched Ennis driving off, hurt and exhausted, but he'd still be back in November, if he could.
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I just wrote this post some days ago and Thomas said to me that maybe we should talk about it in another thread, so I just came here and saw you all talking about Randall and Jack....so I was wondering if it'd be ok if I post again my old post here.... Let me know if I'm so off topic. ^f^
I’ve always thought that it was Randall who did the first move. He was staring at Jack so intensely during the whole dinner, so Jack had to stare back.
Outside, it was Jack who started the talk, but I think he did it because it was so tense and awkward to be sitting there in total silence. Or maybe because he was curious and he wanted to know why Randall was staring at him like that, or maybe only because he was polite. In any case, Jack looked tired, like talking with Randall was not fun at all. In the script Randall reacted to Jack’s small talk with equal tired attitude: “as if the vanity of women is a tiresome subject”…..Then he did a move again. But we have to look at Jack’s face after Randall proposed the fishing trip. Jack was not excited about it, or even stunned or surprised because that man, almost unknown, wanted to spend time with him. Jack’s mind was so far away, because the mention of a cabin, mountains, fishing, sure made him think about Ennis. And that hurt. Sure, when they were separated, Jack tried to lessen his pain by distracting his mind, and now Randall was making him think about Ennis again. In that moment I bet that Jack felt so alone, so miserable; he missed Ennis like crazy, and maybe he was even thinking that, yeah, he’d like to go to that cabin up that mountain, but with Ennis. He maybe thought that it was Ennis who had to be there, taking that trip with him. He sure thought that it was ironic: he dying to go on more fishing trips so he could spend more time with Ennis, and now here that man proposing him to do what Ennis was unable to do (because of work, his girls or whatever).
Jack didn’t even reply in that moment….Sure he did it sometime after that scene, but I think he did it because he was feeling alone, he was desperate and he needed male company, sex, whatever…He was hurting and he needed to forget for a while, or at least to try….So I think that Randall was only a way to lessen his pain and to fulfil his sexual needs. But I also think that with time Randall became so much more. In my opinion, only in my opinion, Jack never loved Randall. He was only in love with Ennis. But after 4 years of sharing sex, and spending time together, talking, drinking, having diner with the women, I bet that they became good friends. In a deleted scene two mechanics observe how Randall leaves Jack’s truck. It was 1981. So still then they were seen each other. So I really think that it was a sexual affair, without feelings about love, but I’m sure they were good friends.
I’m only talking about Jack’s feelings, because we know he was in love with Ennis. But I can’t talk about Randall feelings, because we know so little about him….I don’t know if he liked Jack only as a friend or if, with time, he fell in love, or it was only sex for him.
I’ve always wondered how Randall knew that he could made that move on Jack, and also if some night after drinking good whiskey and having a rough time, Jack talked to Randall about Ennis, about his feelings….
If Lureen and LaShawn got closer, if they became friends too, or if Jack and Randall shared more than fishing trips, I mean, if they had a work relationship too or if they were close neighbours, I suppose that Randall had to hear about Jack’s trips to North, to spend days “fishing” with an old friend…and knowing that Jack was gay and the nature of their own fishing trips, I think that maybe he knew…. But I’m only speculating…
What do you think?
Thank you!! ^f^
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I also agree that Jack was thinking about Ennis when Randall propositioned him. He had no desire to be w/ Randall, but I reckon Randall was better than no one. Eventually, they must've been together; although I wonder for how long. I also wonder if Randall is why he was murdered, but we'll never know that for sure. :\'(
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Henceforth, let us limit ourselves to discussing the main topic of this thread: Did Jack's Love "Wear Out".
As moderator of this part of the forum, I will delete any post that:
1. persists in straying from the original topic.
2. shows any pig-headed disrespect for the opinions of others. We can agree to disagree. But remain civil. I am warning everybody.
I am speaking as moderator. [/b]
As the person who started this thread, I thank you.
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Well, it looks like science backs up the notion that the love of Ennis and Jack COULD have lasted a lifetime and never worn out, despite everything. See the following that was published at CNN.com on January 4th.
*********************
(CNN) -- Love's first blush fading? Lost that loving feeling? Love is not all around? Sick of cliches?
Take heart, scientists have discovered that people can have a love that lasts a lifetime.
Using brain scans, researchers at Stony Brook University in New York have discovered a small number of couples respond with as much passion after 20 years together as most people only do during the early throes of romance, Britain's Sunday Times newspaper reported.
The researchers scanned the brains of couples together for 20 years and compared them with results from new lovers, the Sunday Times said.
About 10 percent of the mature couples had the same chemical reactions when shown photographs of their loved ones as those just starting out.
Previous research has suggested that the first stages of romantic love fade within 15 months and after 10 years it has gone completely, the newspaper said.
"The findings go against the traditional view of romance -- that it drops off sharply in the first decade -- but we are sure it's real," said Arthur Aron, a psychologist at Stony Brook, told the Sunday Times.
[end]
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I also agree that Jack was thinking about Ennis when Randall propositioned him. He had no desire to be w/ Randall, but I reckon Randall was better than no one. Eventually, they must've been together; although I wonder for how long. I also wonder if Randall is why he was murdered, but we'll never know that for sure. :\'(
If Jack was murdered, than Randall could be the most probable cause! :(
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I suppose that Randall had to hear about Jack’s trips to North, to spend days “fishing” with an old friend…and knowing that Jack was gay and the nature of their own fishing trips, I think that maybe he knew…. But I’m only speculating…
What do you think?
Thank you!! ^f^
If Randall and Jack became so close as you say, it is more that possible that Randall knew about Ennis.
Is it possible that Randall was jelaous of Ennis, and made Jack exposed to a hostile people... or I am aiming far too far?! :s)
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Tammy's post brought back my own memories of the scene where Randall comes on to Jack. It seemed to be a careful, guarded form of "cruising", where Randall's gaydar said maybe Jack was a possibility due to Jack's open, easy-going nature. Randall seemed....experienced. Since I disagree with most, that Jack was not cruising the rodeo clown, never cruised, but only went to the safety of Mexico to let loose, it seemed to me this was a new experience for Jack. What? Somebody else up here does it, too? He seemed surprised and edgy. Randall was the aggressor and Jack was both sensing the possible troubles, and interested. Somewhat.
Loreen, if it was a murder, there is a lot that points to the affair with Randall. Jack had said the relationship with Randall's wife (which I believe was also going on) could get him killed. He said that to Ennis. Then, the move to replace Ennis with Randall as a companion at Lightning Flat is very quickly followed by his death. I agree with you completely, that there seems to be a connection, IF it was a murder.
Finally, no matter how long the affair went on, IMO, it was never much of a threat to the relationship, strained as that was, with Ennis. Might have been a case of, you can't stand it or fix it, so, that leaves Randall as a pressure release.
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I don’t think that Randall had something to do with Jack’s death, but it’s only my opinion, of course.
In a deleted scene two mechanics observe how Randall leaves Jack’s truck and walks to his own truck. After that those two mechanics look each other, knowing……
So Ang Lee tried, with that scene, let us know that other people in Texas knew what Jack “was doing”, or least, they suspected….
Those men could have beaten Randall too, but they got Jack. I don’t know if maybe they saw Jack more vulnerable, if they found Jack first, or if Jack had already “fame” like a queer, and Randall not….
But at the end of that deleted scene the camera focus in Jack’s truck, not Randall’s truck, like if those men were looking at Jack’s truck instead of Randall’s. Maybe they knew about Jack’s trips to Mexico. In the SS Jack had not only sex with hustlers in Mexico but also with other men during his work trips….
Anyway, Randall couldn’t have anything to do with Jack’s murder because it’d be like throwing stones to his own windows. I mean, if he spread the word about queers in Childress, then, after Jack’s death, he’d never find another men to have an affair with….Every gay guy would be scared like hell to make any move, and also the very same Randall couldn’t make any move, because those same men who killed Jack could figure him out.
Jack died because of an accident, or because of the deep homophobic in the rural US, but I don’t think that Randall is in the picture there. He could have been a victim too, but not a murderer. He was in the same team as Jack. There were so so so very few men there and then who dared to risk their lives to get what they needed…so they most likely protected to each other, or at least didn’t say a word another any of them. They were alone against the world. Who’d be that crazy to “sell” one of the few fellows like you to the “other team” who want you to disappear?
Just my take. And I hope that it makes sense. ::) ::) Thank you. :^^)
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Hm... Baby Tammy, :s)
Reasonable enough! :)
I was jus trying to find somone to blame. In that way it would be easier to bear Jack's death :\'(.... but you're right. Randall is most probably out of the question!
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I also agree that Jack was thinking about Ennis when Randall propositioned him. He had no desire to be w/ Randall, but I reckon Randall was better than no one. Eventually, they must've been together; although I wonder for how long. I also wonder if Randall is why he was murdered, but we'll never know that for sure. :\'(
I also thought that Jack was thinking of Ennis at that moment. There was no question of Jack being worn out at this point, but I think that he many have been weighing in his mind the ramifications of accepting Randall's proposal. Perhaps he was asking himself what Ennis would think if he ever found out...
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As the person who started this thread, I thank you.
Thank you also, August. I apologize if things got a bit confused/confusing the last few days...
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Well, it looks like science backs up the notion that the love of Ennis and Jack COULD have lasted a lifetime and never worn out, despite everything. See the following that was published at CNN.com on January 4th.
*********************
(CNN) -- Love's first blush fading? Lost that loving feeling? Love is not all around? Sick of cliches?
Take heart, scientists have discovered that people can have a love that lasts a lifetime.
Using brain scans, researchers at Stony Brook University in New York have discovered a small number of couples respond with as much passion after 20 years together as most people only do during the early throes of romance, Britain's Sunday Times newspaper reported.
The researchers scanned the brains of couples together for 20 years and compared them with results from new lovers, the Sunday Times said.
About 10 percent of the mature couples had the same chemical reactions when shown photographs of their loved ones as those just starting out.
Previous research has suggested that the first stages of romantic love fade within 15 months and after 10 years it has gone completely, the newspaper said.
"The findings go against the traditional view of romance -- that it drops off sharply in the first decade -- but we are sure it's real," said Arthur Aron, a psychologist at Stony Brook, told the Sunday Times.
[end]
Quite an interesting scientiofic study. And it is certainly surprisingly relevant to the current discussion. But I think this will not go unchallenged, as the majority of the older studies did suggest the opposite. But personally, this particular study does make sense, even if it remains an empirical/statistical finding.
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Tammy's post brought back my own memories of the scene where Randall comes on to Jack. It seemed to be a careful, guarded form of "cruising", where Randall's gaydar said maybe Jack was a possibility due to Jack's open, easy-going nature. Randall seemed....experienced. Since I disagree with most, that Jack was not cruising the rodeo clown, never cruised, but only went to the safety of Mexico to let loose, it seemed to me this was a new experience for Jack. What? Somebody else up here does it, too? He seemed surprised and edgy. Randall was the aggressor and Jack was both sensing the possible troubles, and interested. Somewhat.
Loreen, if it was a murder, there is a lot that points to the affair with Randall. Jack had said the relationship with Randall's wife (which I believe was also going on) could get him killed. He said that to Ennis. Then, the move to replace Ennis with Randall as a companion at Lightning Flat is very quickly followed by his death. I agree with you completely, that there seems to be a connection, IF it was a murder.
Finally, no matter how long the affair went on, IMO, it was never much of a threat to the relationship, strained as that was, with Ennis. Might have been a case of, you can't stand it or fix it, so, that leaves Randall as a pressure release.
A nice way of putting it, Tony. Even I admit that if I weigh things in my mind, I would say that Randall is probably the "agressor" here, and Jack was simply appeared open to the possibilities.
So I understand better what some of you are pointing out -- that Jack may have been uncomfortable with the proposition. Ennis was certainly on his mind. Clearly, Jack had not given up on Ennis at that stage.
It is with some irony to therefore note that Jack may have considered Randall as some kind of "replacement" for the sweet life with Ennis. Does this suggest that Jack's love was worn out, or did it suggest a passive giving in to agression?
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A nice way of putting it, Tony. Even I admit that if I weigh things in my mind, I would say that Randall is probably the "agressor" here, and Jack was simply appeared open to the possibilities.
So I understand better what some of you are pointing out -- that Jack may have been uncomfortable with the proposition. Ennis was certainly on his mind. Clearly, Jack had not given up on Ennis at that stage.
It is with some irony to therefore note that Jack may have considered Randall as some kind of "replacement" for the sweet life with Ennis. Does this suggest that Jack's love was worn out, or did it suggest a passive giving in to agression?
I don't think that Jack really considered him as a replacement, nor it was Jack's passive giving in to aggression. It was Jack's relationship with John Twist and his wish to have something palpable to offer to his old man. And Randall, who was his sex partner at the time, and who was not only near him, but ready to go for new things was the best choice to present to John Twist. But, as I said, Randall would never ever come to live to LF! No way!
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Dear Thomas, - no, I don't think Jack's plans with Randall meant his love for Ennis had worn out. Maybe he was just making what he could of a difficult time.
Loreen, your belief Randall would never go to Lightning Flat is the same as mine. Unless he had fallen deeply in love with Jack and there's zero information pointing that way. So where did Jack get that idea? His father and wife suggested he lived in a dream world, but IMO, more like a dreamy world, based on optimism. He must have had some belief he could talk Randall into it. And we may have overlooked, what a bitter blow it may have been that even Randall wouldn't commit. Poor Jack - and then soon thereafter, dead. And we don't know, as a fact, how.
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Tammy...you made some really good points as to why it wouldn't be Randall who caused Jack's death. Somehow, though, word got around that Jack Twist was "queer".
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I don't think that Jack really considered him as a replacement, nor it was Jack's passive giving in to aggression. It was Jack's relationship with John Twist and his wish to have something palpable to offer to his old man. And Randall, who was his sex partner at the time, and who was not only near him, but ready to go for new things was the best choice to present to John Twist. But, as I said, Randall would never ever come to live to LF! No way!
I think a an old member (Patriot1) said once that we were being harsh on John Twist and that he just wanted some help on the ranch and that Jack was always disappointing him in this regard. Your opinion seems to echo his opinion.
Personally, I didn't really feel that Jack didn't particularly view Randall (or Ennis) as an offering to John Twist. I have always thought that Jack cared enough for either one to bring them to the ranch to share a life with him. So you see that I differ here in that I have a more sympathetic view of Randall. And you know, I actually think that Randall would take Jack's offer -- no proof for this; this was just how I feel...
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Dear Thomas, - no, I don't think Jack's plans with Randall meant his love for Ennis had worn out. Maybe he was just making what he could of a difficult time.
I do have the same feeling: that it was like making do...
Loreen, your belief Randall would never go to Lightning Flat is the same as mine. Unless he had fallen deeply in love with Jack and there's zero information pointing that way. So where did Jack get that idea? His father and wife suggested he lived in a dream world, but IMO, more like a dreamy world, based on optimism. He must have had some belief he could talk Randall into it. And we may have overlooked, what a bitter blow it may have been that even Randall wouldn't commit. Poor Jack - and then soon thereafter, dead. And we don't know, as a fact, how.
As I told loreen, in the above post, I differ from both of you here. It would have been interesting to see the deleted scene sometime in the near future where Randall and Jack and the mechanics to see if there was any indication that Randall did or did not agree. Not that such a deleted scene would really rule out what you and loreen believe. I think such a deleted scene would have thrown a bit more light on the relationship between Jack and Randall.
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I do have the same feeling: that it was like making do...
As I told loreen, in the above post, I differ from both of you here. It would have been interesting to see the deleted scene sometime in the near future where Randall and Jack and the mechanics to see if there was any indication that Randall did or did not agree. Not that such a deleted scene would really rule out what you and loreen believe. I think such a deleted scene would have thrown a bit more light on the relationship between Jack and Randall.
As the movie stands, I think Randall's character is too vague to really know what he was to Jack or how far he (Randall) really wanted it to go . We know he was married, probably had kids and made an offer to Jack that night. That's really all we see of Randall in the movie, so who knows?, maybe he was like a lot of men who wanted to experiment with sex outside marriage or maybe it went deeper. I guess that's the beauty of this movie, so many things left up to the viewer's imagination and interpretation.
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I think a an old member (Patriot1) said once that we were being harsh on John Twist and that he just wanted some help on the ranch and that Jack was always disappointing him in this regard. Your opinion seems to echo his opinion.
Personally, I didn't really feel that Jack didn't particularly view Randall (or Ennis) as an offering to John Twist. I have always thought that Jack cared enough for either one to bring them to the ranch to share a life with him. So you see that I differ here in that I have a more sympathetic view of Randall. And you know, I actually think that Randall would take Jack's offer -- no proof for this; this was just how I feel...
I don't think that we're harsh on John Twist as I extremely dislike this character for treating Jack so badly all his life. But I see Jack wanting to have something to say,to offer something to his father after so many years of promising in vane that Ennis DelMar would come. Surely Jack wanted someone with him on the ranch, and maybe in that way he'd fulfill both of his wishes- to live with Ennis and to make John Twist finally satisfied with him.
But so many years had passed and after their final confrontation Jack didn't "offer" the same name. Why? That's not easy to know. What I am certain of, is that Randall, so fancy as he was, would never come to such a poor and depressive place as LF, to work and help John Twist on the farm?? I just don't see it.
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As the movie stands, I think Randall's character is too vague to really know what he was to Jack or how far he (Randall) really wanted it to go . We know he was married, probably had kids and made an offer to Jack that night. That's really all we see of Randall in the movie, so who knows?, maybe he was like a lot of men who wanted to experiment with sex outside marriage or maybe it went deeper. I guess that's the beauty of this movie, so many things left up to the viewer's imagination and interpretation.
Exactly. I would like to use the term "shadowy" when describing Randall. Or enigmatic. Perhaps this is all for the best. Perhaps knowing more would have deprecated the love between Ennis and Jack a little bit. In his own enigmatic way, Randall looms as the big uncertainly in our attempts to answer whether or not Jack's love wore out.
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I don't think that we're harsh on John Twist as I extremely dislike this character for treating Jack so badly all his life. But I see Jack wanting to have something to say,to offer something to his father after so many years of promising in vane that Ennis DelMar would come. Surely Jack wanted someone with him on the ranch, and maybe in that way he'd fulfill both of his wishes- to live with Ennis and to make John Twist finally satisfied with him.
But so many years had passed and after their final confrontation Jack didn't "offer" the same name. Why? That's not easy to know. What I am certain of, is that Randall, so fancy as he was, would never come to such a poor and depressive place as LF, to work and help John Twist on the farm?? I just don't see it.
Yes, I personally feel that our dislike of John Twist is not unwarranted. And I agree that aside from wanting a sweet life with Ennis, he also felt that they could be a great help to his father on the ranch. For in spite of all the unpleasant memories (I sue here the ss a bit more), Jack did not hesiatate to go back home in order to help out, as we hear him say 2 times in the movie.
I think that in offering up a new name, Jack was trying to "move on", or perhaps was trying to move on. We cannot be sure whether this was because his love had worn out or whether because he thought that he had to move on. There is a significant distinction here, I hope. Moving on doesn't necessarily mean "forget", although it is commonly used to indicate a wanting to move past a current impasse.
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Yes, I personally feel that our dislike of John Twist is not unwarranted. And I agree that aside from wanting a sweet life with Ennis, he also felt that they could be a great help to his father on the ranch. For in spite of all the unpleasant memories (I sue here the ss a bit more), Jack did not hesiatate to go back home in order to help out, as we hear him say 2 times in the movie.
I think that in offering up a new name, Jack was trying to "move on", or perhaps was trying to move on. We cannot be sure whether this was because his love had worn out or whether because he thought that he had to move on. There is a significant distinction here, I hope. Moving on doesn't necessarily mean "forget", although it is commonly used to indicate a wanting to move past a current impasse.
I know what you mean about SS and John Twist and that really makes me angry each time I think of it. ^*)
I don't accept that Jack was determined to move on and you think that he was. :-\\ But do yo really see Randall in LF?! I don't!
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As Rimasworld said yesterday,Randall's character is too vague as to know if he had been the real change in Jack's life.But even knowing this,maybe he really was the change Jack needed in that moment,it's to say;that he arrived just in the correct moment,not for himself,but for the circumstances around Jack...I think he needed,at least,an "impasse" because he and Ennis were walking in circles around this "unsatisfactory situation";he knew very well that his lover wasn't going to change his position and that,from the confrontation scene onwards,all what he was going to obtain were those "two high altitude f***s once or twice a year".
We take for granted that Ennis "saw the light" in that very moment,but I don't think Jack was so sure of this then... :-\\ And,being a so need of love as he was,maybe he found in Randall the person who could give him a poor and almost ridiculous substitute for Ennis.I quote Thomas words: Moving on doesn't necessarily mean "forget", although it is commonly used to indicate a wanting to move past a current impasse. And it's sure that Jack wasn't going to forget neither Ennis,nor their love,even nor those f***s twice a year; but it's sure also that he was already a little fed up of waiting for so long,IMO.
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I know what you mean about SS and John Twist and that really makes me angry each time I think of it. ^*)
I don't accept that Jack was determined to move on and you think that he was. :-\\ But do yo really see Randall in LF?! I don't!
Well loreen: you don't have to. And as fate would have it, they never did move in together. :)
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As Rimasworld said yesterday,Randall's character is too vague as to know if he had been the real change in Jack's life.But even knowing this,maybe he really was the change Jack needed in that moment,it's to say;that he arrived just in the correct moment,not for himself,but for the circumstances around Jack...I think he needed,at least,an "impasse" because he and Ennis were walking in circles around this "unsatisfactory situation";he knew very well that his lover wasn't going to change his position and that,from the confrontation scene onwards,all what he was going to obtain were those "two high altitude f***s once or twice a year".
We take for granted that Ennis "saw the light" in that very moment,but I don't think Jack was so sure of this then... :-\\ And,being a so need of love as he was,maybe he found in Randall the person who could give him a poor and almost ridiculous substitute for Ennis.I quote Thomas words: Moving on doesn't necessarily mean "forget", although it is commonly used to indicate a wanting to move past a current impasse. And it's sure that Jack wasn't going to forget neither Ennis,nor their love,even nor those f***s twice a year; but it's sure also that he was already a little fed up of waiting for so long,IMO.
And even if they had moved in together -- Randall and Jack -- would it have been final? Of course, we'll never know. I there are so many possibilities. And if we believe that Jack would not forget Ennis, then we are probably setting ourselves up into believing that any such arrangement between them was not going to last. Perhaps it would only confirm Jack's need for Ennis -- doesn't this happen many times in real life when lovers push for a separation, only to reunite later? This is not blind romanticism. The reality is that with such couple, an on and off relationship seems to be the only way they know to reaffirm their love for each other against weariness and time.
I too don't think that Ennis saw the light precisely at that moment. I think it was gradual, and that the full realization simply hit him in jack's bedroom in LF, when it was all too late.
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Well loreen: you don't have to. And as fate would have it, they never did move in together. :)
OMG, now that you've said it... I never give it a thought, cos I always see Jack with Ennis, but even with Randall, just not dead... :\'(
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And even if they had moved in together -- Randall and Jack -- would it have been final? Of course, we'll never know. I there are so many possibilities. And if we believe that Jack would not forget Ennis, then we are probably setting ourselves up into believing that any such arrangement between them was not going to last. Perhaps it would only confirm Jack's need for Ennis -- doesn't this happen many times in real life when lovers push for a separation, only to reunite later? This is not blind romanticism. The reality is that with such couple, an on and off relationship seems to be the only way they know to reaffirm their love for each other against weariness and time.
I too don't think that Ennis saw the light precisely at that moment. I think it was gradual, and that the full realization simply hit him in jack's bedroom in LF, when it was all too late.
I also believe so! And that moment is so difficult to watch, especially with words from SS - Ennis trying to smell Jack and mountain grass in it (not exact words, sorry) ... OMG! Thousands of other sad scenes from movies together are not as sad as this one! It cuts my heart like a sharp knife each time, and it's not getting better.
Especially dificult to accept is Ennis' instant, but late understanding of something which was for 20 long years so obvious in front of his eyes - Jack's LOVE! :\'( :\'( :\'(
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OMG, now that you've said it... I never give it a thought, cos I always see Jack with Ennis, but even with Randall, just not dead... :\'(
Perhaps what wore out Jack the most was the inability to love the other to the fullest capacity.
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I also believe so! And that moment is so difficult to watch, especially with words from SS - Ennis trying to smell Jack and mountain grass in it (not exact words, sorry) ... OMG! Thousands of other sad scenes from movies together are not as sad as this one! It cuts my heart like a sharp knife each time, and it's not getting better.
Especially dificult to accept is Ennis' instant, but late understanding of something which was for 20 long years so obvious in front of his eyes - Jack's LOVE! :\'( :\'( :\'(
I would like to think that when John Twist told Ennis about Jack wanting to move in with someone else, he didn't think any less of Jack because of it. Perhaps it occured to him that he could have lost Jack in life, if not in death. Perhaps it taught him to feel and appreciate Jack's pain.
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I would like to think that when John Twist told Ennis about Jack wanting to move in with someone else, he didn't think any less of Jack because of it. Perhaps it occured to him that he could have lost Jack in life, if not in death. Perhaps it taught him to feel and appreciate Jack's pain.
I said it once before and I believe it - after Jack died, no Earthly mud can pollute the memory of him in Ennis' eyes. Jack was his saint, his sacred memory, his only love in the fullest of that word. Ennis realised about love -his and Jack's. If Ennis had any doubts after John Twist's words, when he found the shirts - he just knew it!.
He appreciate Jack's pain cos now he feels it himself too. Not only the pain of fear, but the pain of the love he could not have any more. Dear Ennis, he lost so much for not being able to take olny one little step more. It is a huge burden for anyone's soul and a neverending regret. :\'( :\'( :\'(
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I said it once before and I believe it - after Jack died, no Earthly mud can pollute the memory of him in Ennis' eyes. Jack was his saint, his sacred memory, his only love in the fullest of that word. Ennis realised about love -his and Jack's. If Ennis had any doubts after John Twist's words, when he found the shirts - he just knew it!.
He appreciate Jack's pain cos now he feels it himself too. Not only the pain of fear, but the pain of the love he could not have any more. Dear Ennis, he lost so much for not being able to take olny one little step more. It is a huge burden for anyone's soul and a neverending regret. :\'( :\'( :\'(
And I also think he appreciated it because he knew that he was the cause of it, and Jack would never have been driven to the extreme had it not been for his reticence.
I also think that Jack's father mentioned all this in part to hurt Ennis -- or rebuke him. Whatever the motivation, I don't think he really succeeded. At that point, Ennis was already overcome with remorse, and the discovery of the shirts put an end to all doubt.
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And I also think he appreciated it because he knew that he was the cause of it, and Jack would never have been driven to the extreme had it not been for his reticence.
I also think that Jack's father mentioned all this in part to hurt Ennis -- or rebuke him. Whatever the motivation, I don't think he really succeeded. At that point, Ennis was already overcome with remorse, and the discovery of the shirts put an end to all doubt.
This is a huge burden to be aware that you may be the reason for your beloved person to die in such a horrible way. I am here with Ennis 100% even he WAS guilty in a way, but had no power to turn himself into the person, only Jack death could create. But, his sorrow is so palpable, so deep and heavy, that no one can remain insensitive to that.
I liked Ennis in LF, even it is so anxious scene, that I rarely watch it. But he was the man we wanted him to be! Polite, but proud, sensitive, but firm... Love him there, even my heart is broken! And will always be each time I remember him in Jack's room...
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I said it once before and I believe it - after Jack died, no Earthly mud can pollute the memory of him in Ennis' eyes. Jack was his saint, his sacred memory, his only love in the fullest of that word. Ennis realised about love -his and Jack's. If Ennis had any doubts after John Twist's words, when he found the shirts - he just knew it!.
He appreciate Jack's pain cos now he feels it himself too. Not only the pain of fear, but the pain of the love he could not have any more. Dear Ennis, he lost so much for not being able to take olny one little step more. It is a huge burden for anyone's soul and a neverending regret. :\'( :\'( :\'(
Yes, Loreen, it's kind of like the "light bulb" turned on in his head when he found the shirts. He understood what he meant to Jack.
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Yes, Loreen, it's kind of like the "light bulb" turned on in his head when he found the shirts. He understood what he meant to Jack.
The "light bulb" turned on, as well as our immense sorrow! :\'(
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This is a huge burden to be aware that you may be the reason for your beloved person to die in such a horrible way. I am here with Ennis 100% even he WAS guilty in a way, but had no power to turn himself into the person, only Jack death could create. But, his sorrow is so palpable, so deep and heavy, that no one can remain insensitive to that.
I liked Ennis in LF, even it is so anxious scene, that I rarely watch it. But he was the man we wanted him to be! Polite, but proud, sensitive, but firm... Love him there, even my heart is broken! And will always be each time I remember him in Jack's room...
Even the ss does not explicitly blame Ennis, although there is more than a hint of a return to fear -- suggesting that Jack's death by the tire-iron was what was on Ennis's mind, and may not have been what really happened. We get a greater sense of guilt in the movie, I believe...
I think Ennis was a stronger person in the LF scenes. Had he beleievd that Jack's love had worn out, he might not have been that strong, perhaps?
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Yes, Loreen, it's kind of like the "light bulb" turned on in his head when he found the shirts. He understood what he meant to Jack.
And for the first time, Ennis realized just how much he loved Jack.
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Even the ss does not explicitly blame Ennis, although there is more than a hint of a return to fear -- suggesting that Jack's death by the tire-iron was what was on Ennis's mind, and may not have been what really happened. We get a greater sense of guilt in the movie, I believe...
I think Ennis was a stronger person in the LF scenes. Had he beleievd that Jack's love had worn out, he might not have been that strong, perhaps?
Sure! Anyway the hardest stroke came from the old Twist and his story about Jack's neighbour coming to LF. That was the moment when Ennis could've suspect the most about Jack's love. But then he went up to Jack's room....
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And for the first time, Ennis realized just how much he loved Jack.
OMG, that too! The shirts had a power not only to show Ennis Jack's love, but also his own! To reveal all the thing unsaid during their "separate and difficult lives"!!! And no Jack to share that love!
How that must have hurt! Poor Ennis! :\'(
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Sure! Anyway the hardest stroke came from the old Twist and his story about Jack's neighbour coming to LF. That was the moment when Ennis could've suspect the most about Jack's love. But then he went up to Jack's room....
I also think that his lack of a visible reaction then showed that he had the internal strength to bear this posthumous revelation. It wasn't that he was not hurting inside; rather, it showed that he had gained the strength and the courage to face it without flinching.
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OMG, that too! The shirts had a power not only to show Ennis Jack's love, but also his own! To reveal all the thing unsaid during their "separate and difficult lives"!!! And no Jack to share that love!
How that must have hurt! Poor Ennis! :\'(
But the revelation was also a gift, correct? Would it have been better that Ennis spent the rest of his life not knowing?
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I also think that his lack of a visible reaction then showed that he had the internal strength to bear this posthumous revelation. It wasn't that he was not hurting inside; rather, it showed that he had gained the strength and the courage to face it without flinching.
Ennis was a very firm character. It wasn't easy to make him lose it. But surely, he could've felt hurt at the moment.
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But the revelation was also a gift, correct? Would it have been better that Ennis spent the rest of his life not knowing?
I don't know. Probably not! But the main damage had already been done and the rest of it were just different shades of life. But all dark!
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This is a huge burden to be aware that you may be the reason for your beloved person to die in such a horrible way. I am here with Ennis 100% even he WAS guilty in a way, but had no power to turn himself into the person, only Jack death could create. But, his sorrow is so palpable, so deep and heavy, that no one can remain insensitive to that.
I liked Ennis in LF, even it is so anxious scene, that I rarely watch it. But he was the man we wanted him to be! Polite, but proud, sensitive, but firm... Love him there, even my heart is broken! And will always be each time I remember him in Jack's room...
I don't think Ennis blamed himself, nor is he to be blamed for Jack's death (whether by accident or murder). My impression of Ennis as portrayed by Heath is someone who was grieving for the loss of someone he loved, for the opportunity to love and be loved, because by the time he sent the postcard to Jack, he dumped Cassie and was ready to face this thing with no reins, this thing he finally had a name, love. It's why the screenwriters injected the diner scene. It makes the scene in Lightning Flats more poignant.
In a sense, the Ennis that went to Lightning Flats was the Ennis that Jack met, the reticent, quiet, withdrawn, polite, dutiful, follow the rules Ennis that would not stir trouble. The trauma of Jack's death, not unlike the trauma of losing his parents at an early age, put him back to familiar territory, the withdrawn cowboy. That's why he suffered in silence when the old man bullied him with the Randall bits. He was angry, he was hurt, but he did nothing, and suffered in silence as he always did...gotta stand it if you can't fix it. But fortunately, Jack's Ma stepped in, as she must have done often with Jack, placed a gentle compassionate hand on his shoulder, and guided him away from the bully to find refuge upstairs, in Jack's room. She kept it like it was when he was a boy...a refuge away from the angry storm of a man.
That one scene in the kitchen was masterful and prepared the perfect scene in the bedroom. Without the confrontation with the old man, when Ennis was not placed at the depth of despair, thinking he lost Jack, not only physically, but also in love, the moment of truth, of finding those shirts would not be as powerful as it was, breaking down all the walls that kept Ennis locked up tight. The love that Ennis thought he lost, the love that he yearned for, burst forth in a moment that energized him, and perhaps for the first time in his life, he cried.
I don't know. Probably not! But the main damage had already been done and the rest of it were just different shades of life. But all dark!
I see the light that is Jack's Ma, the angel of compassion and gentleness, and the light that is Jack's love, the love that has no end, and the light that is Ennis' devotion, the faithfulness that is singular and true.
I have been told that I see the end differently than others, and I do not apologize for it, but I also understand others' point of view.
:ghug: I hope you find peace in/from the movie, whatever you see.
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I don't think Ennis blamed himself, nor is he to be blamed for Jack's death (whether by accident or murder). My impression of Ennis as portrayed by Heath is someone who was grieving for the loss of someone he loved, for the opportunity to love and be loved, because by the time he sent the postcard to Jack, he dumped Cassie and was ready to face this thing with no reins, this thing he finally had a name, love. It's why the screenwriters injected the diner scene. It makes the scene in Lightning Flats more poignant.
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That one scene in the kitchen was masterful and prepared the perfect scene in the bedroom. Without the confrontation with the old man, when Ennis was not placed at the depth of despair, thinking he lost Jack, not only physically, but also in love, the moment of truth, of finding those shirts would not be as powerful as it was, breaking down all the walls that kept Ennis locked up tight. The love that Ennis thought he lost, the love that he yearned for, burst forth in a moment that energized him, and perhaps for the first time in his life, he cried.
I see the light that is Jack's Ma, the angel of compassion and gentleness, and the light that is Jack's love, the love that has no end, and the light that is Ennis' devotion, the faithfulness that is singular and true.
I have been told that I see the end differently than others, and I do not apologize for it, but I also understand others' point of view.
:ghug: I hope you find peace in/from the movie, whatever you see.
Lance,
I think that you're right about Ennis not feeling guilty for Jack's death, nor should have he felt guilty for that. But not embracing the sweet life with Jack could have also been a reason why Jack is dead. Had Ennis dumped Cassie in order to be able to accept Jack's proposal in any conditions, then Ennis should have had in mind that the postponing of this decision could led to Jack's unfortunate destiny.
In my mind I am not sure if Ennis' decision to dump Cassie was the result of his determination to accept Jack's terms... really we have no firm evidence of this. But I can leave it open, cos I have no evidence that it wasn't.
He cried during FC for the first time we saw. He broke there and broke our hearts too! :\'(
As for Jack's Ma, I always think of the movie and SS at the same time. Mrs. Twist and her husband had no physical resemblance with Jack whatsoever, according to SS. In that way AP showed us that Jack's parents could not represent him nor Ennis could've find any sign of Jack in them. Movie is different though and Mrs. Twist is a very kind woman who not only accepts, but also embraces Ennis and his relationship with her son, wanting to have the piece of him through Ennis. To be honest -not much hope in my heart anyway
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Finally, we all see this story in our way, and feel it in our way. The only thing common is the enormous impact it has on all of us. The differences in the experiencing BbM are not only expected, but necessary and can form our POV in the best way. Cos a lots of things I have learned from others, which I didn't necessarily agree with.
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Lance,
I think that you're right about Ennis not feeling guilty for Jack's death, nor should have he felt guilty for that. But not embracing the sweet life with Jack could have also been a reason why Jack is dead. Had Ennis dumped Cassie in order to be able to accept Jack's proposal in any conditions, then Ennis should have had in mind that the postponing of this decision could led to Jack's unfortunate destiny.
In my mind I am not sure if Ennis' decision to dump Cassie was the result of his determination to accept Jack's terms... really we have no firm evidence of this. But I can leave it open, cos I have no evidence that it wasn't.
There is no logical reason for Ennis or anyone to think Jack's death was caused by Ennis, either directly or indirectly. Jack lived for twenty years with the arrangement. It didn't kill him. If anything is to be blamed, the short story implied that Jack's "affair" with Randall was the cause. That's what Ennis thought of the tire iron when the old talked about Randall. No Ennis did not feel guilty; he felt an immense grief, not only for Jack, but also for the opportunities lost. As for his ending the relationship with Cassie, it was fairly clear in the diner scene that he was sorry that he could not return the feelings that Cassie had for him. He didn't know what it was, until Cassie said that girls don't fall in love with fun. Then, the expression on his face, was one of insight, epiphany, a moment of recognition when confounded with truth. He loved Jack.
He cried during FC for the first time we saw. He broke there and broke our hearts too! :\'(
As for Jack's Ma, I always think of the movie and SS at the same time. Mrs. Twist and her husband had no physical resemblance with Jack whatsoever, according to SS. In that way AP showed us that Jack's parents could not represent him nor Ennis could've find any sign of Jack in them. Movie is different though and Mrs. Twist is a very kind woman who not only accepts, but also embraces Ennis and his relationship with her son, wanting to have the piece of him through Ennis. To be honest -not much hope in my heart anyway
.
Finally, we all see this story in our way, and feel it in our way. The only thing common is the enormous impact it has on all of us. The differences in the experiencing BbM are not only expected, but necessary and can form our POV in the best way. Cos a lots of things I have learned from others, which I didn't necessarily agree with.
As I said, not many people saw the last part of the movie as I do. I see Jack's Ma playing a crucial role, and I disagree that Jack was not similar or related to Jack's Ma in the short story. If anything, the scene about the pentacost, etc, showed that Jack had a special place for his mother in his heart. He spoke of her with fondness and affection. It is normal, for two people surviving from the same abuser, to bond.
Just my opinion.
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There is no logical reason for Ennis or anyone to think Jack's death was caused by Ennis, either directly or indirectly. Jack lived for twenty years with the arrangement. It didn't kill him. If anything is to be blamed, the short story implied that Jack's "affair" with Randall was the cause. That's what Ennis thought of the tire iron when the old talked about Randall. No Ennis did not feel guilty; he felt an immense grief, not only for Jack, but also for the opportunities lost. As for his ending the relationship with Cassie, it was fairly clear in the diner scene that he was sorry that he could not return the feelings that Cassie had for him. He didn't know what it was, until Cassie said that girls don't fall in love with fun. Then, the expression on his face, was one of insight, epiphany, a moment of recognition when confounded with truth. He loved Jack.
As I said, not many people saw the last part of the movie as I do. I see Jack's Ma playing a crucial role, and I disagree that Jack was not similar or related to Jack's Ma in the short story. If anything, the scene about the pentacost, etc, showed that Jack had a special place for his mother in his heart. He spoke of her with fondness and affection. It is normal, for two people surviving from the same abuser, to bond.
Just my opinion.
If Ennis accepted Jack's offer for sweet life, Jack would never have the need to fool around with Randall or anyone else, and would not expose hims self to death, so IMO Ennis' decision to refuse Jack's proposal over and over again had at least a little, even indirect influence on Jack's death. But we can not blame Ennis.
As for Cassie, I'll have to watch that part again and try to recognize the same message as you. You maybe right here, but I didn't notice.
Jack's Ma and her attitude towards Ennis is definitely very clear in the movie, but not so warm and explicit in the SS. I would prefer to think that Ennis has found his ally in Mrs. Twist, more as he had lost his mother when he was a little boy, but somehow I am not as near optimistic as you are. Ennis has lost the biggest chance in his life. He's to be sorry all his life, and I am going to feel for him all my life.
That's how I see it now, but I will keep my heart open for the change and maybe one day I'll be able to accept my biggest loss - of my own Jack, whatever and whoever he is!
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If Ennis accepted Jack's offer for sweet life, Jack would never have the need to fool around with Randall or anyone else, and would not expose hims self to death, so IMO Ennis' decision to refuse Jack's proposal over and over again had at least a little, even indirect influence on Jack's death. But we can not blame Ennis.
Sorry, Loreen, I don't subscribe to this logic because by the same logic, you can say victims caused their own suffering because they did not agree to the advances of their aggressors. Each individual MUST take responsibility for their own actions, their own DECISIONS. When Jack decided to walk into the alley with the Mexican prostitute, it was his responsibility alone. When Jack exposed himself to ridicule when coming on to the rodeo clown, it was his responsibility alone. When Jack succumbed to Randall's advances, it was his responsibility alone. When Ennis refused Jack's proposal, it was his responsibility alone. He could not blame it on his father, or society. We can attribute an understanding of the cause or origin or influence to that decision, to each decision, but we cannot blur the responsibility for each decision with its attributes. To do so, in my humble opinion, is to deny each individual the freedom to change his or her own future by making choice for a different future from the past.
As for Cassie, I'll have to watch that part again and try to recognize the same message as you. You maybe right here, but I didn't notice.
Jack's Ma and her attitude towards Ennis is definitely very clear in the movie, but not so warm and explicit in the SS. I would prefer to think that Ennis has found his ally in Mrs. Twist, more as he had lost his mother when he was a little boy, but somehow I am not as near optimistic as you are. Ennis has lost the biggest chance in his life. He's to be sorry all his life, and I am going to feel for him all my life.
That's how I see it now, but I will keep my heart open for the change and maybe one day I'll be able to accept my biggest loss - of my own Jack, whatever and whoever he is!
Did you know that Annie Proulx wrote a very touching letter of appreciation to Roberta Maxwell, the actress who portrayed Jack's Ma? I believe the thread also has the audio of an interview with her.
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3080.0
:ghug: I hope you find comfort here.
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:t) Andrew...your posts are beautiful, as always!
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Sorry, Loreen, I don't subscribe to this logic because by the same logic, you can say victims caused their own suffering because they did not agree to the advances of their aggressors. Each individual MUST take responsibility for their own actions, their own DECISIONS. When Jack decided to walk into the alley with the Mexican prostitute, it was his responsibility alone. When Jack exposed himself to ridicule when coming on to the rodeo clown, it was his responsibility alone. When Jack succumbed to Randall's advances, it was his responsibility alone. When Ennis refused Jack's proposal, it was his responsibility alone. He could not blame it on his father, or society. We can attribute an understanding of the cause or origin or influence to that decision, to each decision, but we cannot blur the responsibility for each decision with its attributes. To do so, in my humble opinion, is to deny each individual the freedom to change his or her own future by making choice for a different future from the past.
I see your point here and I can agree that our decisions are our own responsibility. On the other side, those decisions are a product not only of our own, but they are influenced by a lots of circumstances. Most of our decisions are made under the pressure of society or some things in the past or an advice...
I know that going to the Mexican prostitute was solely Jack's decision, but can we possibly understand under what conditions he did that - after rejected and rudely refused by Ennis, after driving for 14 hours on the wings of the wind, so happy, so thrilled he fell down in the mud of his old yearning for the life with Ennis whose words stroked him even more powerful now when Ennis has no Alma to excuse himself. Maybe I am not realistic when it comes to Jack - he's my open wound, but I don't think that we can take things black and white. There are many shades of gray in between.
Did you know that Annie Proulx wrote a very touching letter of appreciation to Roberta Maxwell, the actress who portrayed Jack's Ma? I believe the thread also has the audio of an interview with her.
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3080.0
:ghug: I hope you find comfort here.
Thank you so much for this link. I had a bit of a problem to understand it all, especially something about Heath showing up...
You're right - it comforts a lot in a way, but for me - can not diminish my sadness of losing Jack.
Roberta Maxwell sounded so dear. I liked her not only as jack's mother, but as the actress too. Lovely lady!
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I see your point here and I can agree that our decisions are our own responsibility. On the other side, those decisions are a product not only of our own, but they are influenced by a lots of circumstances. Most of our decisions are made under the pressure of society or some things in the past or an advice...
I know that going to the Mexican prostitute was solely Jack's decision, but can we possibly understand under what conditions he did that - after rejected and rudely refused by Ennis, after driving for 14 hours on the wings of the wind, so happy, so thrilled he fell down in the mud of his old yearning for the life with Ennis whose words stroked him even more powerful now when Ennis has no Alma to excuse himself. Maybe I am not realistic when it comes to Jack - he's my open wound, but I don't think that we can take things black and white. There are many shades of gray in between.
I agree that there are many shades of gray when it comes to attributes that influence each decision, and it is where compassion comes in to fill in the spaces in between. I, personally, do not fault Jack for his visit to Mexico, although I do not like it. I understand his needs differing from Ennis', needing more than a couple high attitude f@#$ a few times a year. I also do not fault his needs for companionship with rodeo clowns or others. It is the opposite of compassion to hold Jack at a standard higher than he can bear.
Similarly, I do not blame Ennis for his homophobia nor his refusing to be with Jack, even though I wish it were not so. In our love and compassion for the two lovers, we fill in the shades of gray with compassion and understanding, and wish them well.
Thank you so much for this link. I had a bit of a problem to understand it all, especially something about Heath showing up...
You're right - it comforts a lot in a way, but for me - can not diminish my sadness of losing Jack.
Roberta Maxwell sounded so dear. I liked her not only as jack's mother, but as the actress too. Lovely lady!
It's a bit off topic here, but I will venture a quick response before the moderators smack me with the OT sign. If you wish to discuss it further, I'd be happy to continue in the other thread.
Roberta mentioned that Heath showed up to help her with her own close up shots, instead of typical big Hollywood star's practice of having a stand-in, to read the star's lines. If I recall from the interview, Heath just finished shooting his own scenes, upstairs in the bedroom, the perfect scene with the two shirts. Then he stayed behind helping Roberta with her close up shoots. It speaks to Heath's generosity of spirit and the reason why everyone who ever worked with Heath loved about him. I am glad you find comfort in Jack's Ma, too. She is one of my favorite characters in the movie. Perhaps the favorite, after Ennis and Jack, of course.
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I don't know. Probably not! But the main damage had already been done and the rest of it were just different shades of life. But all dark!
Well, I see some light in the end. :)
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I'm a long time getting back to this thread. What a great conversation taking place. :c)
First I'll just reiterate that I do not think that Jack's love wore out. I think it was worn down but not nearly out. The instinctive way in which he set aside his own pain to comfort Ennis in the final confrontation says it all to me. Jack loved Ennis because it was in his very nature to do so, whether it brought him pain, happiness or both. How long he might have endured we'll never know but for those 20 years I believe his love was and stayed solid.
Just to give my take on the different theories being discussed here:
-While it is true that everyone is responsible for his or her own actions, regardless of the motivating factors, that doesn't mean that we don't have a natural tendency to blame ourselves for the things that other people do. "If only I'd..." speculation can hinder even the most common sensed when emotions play into things.
So it is possible (though not in any way confirmed) that Ennis felt some measure of responsibility for Jack's fate. Perhaps even just in the sense that this is the inevitable outcome for men who engage in same sex relationships, as his father taught him only too well at a very impressionable age. Was it Jack's relationship with Randall that got him killed in Ennis' eyes or just the fact that he was 'like that' at all? We'll never know for sure. We know only that he believed Jack was killed for it.
-I still don't think that Ennis had a true epiphany about his feelings for Jack until after Jack died. I have always thought that although Cassie's comment to him in the diner gave him pause to look at things somewhat differently, it was not nearly as significant as many others feel (and partially because it wasn't even in the SS, although I think I'd feel this way anyway). I don't think that Ennis breaking up with Cassie necessarily meant he was prepared to make a life with Jack, though he was certainly planning to meet him in November. I think he had realized that his feelings for her would never pass the barriers he had in place and that the relationship could never go anywhere, but not because he was ready to embrace a life with Jack. I think that all of those pieces fell into place with his visit to LF. The enormous loss struck him immediately upon receiving that postcard, but processing all of the pieces into place happened in that moment in Jack's closet, just imo.
-We actually do see Ennis cry on a couple of previous occasions. At the end of that first summer when he collapses in the alley, he cries out as well as dry heaving and punching the wall (I've always thought that was one of the most impressive things Heath did in this film - that sound tore at my heart). And in the divorce scene in the courthouse he has tears in his eyes as the judge renders the divorce final. For me these scenes show the depth of feeling that he is both capable of and oh so dtermined to hold at bay whenever possible. Ennis always tried so hard to keep control, it's not surprising that emotion almost always burst out of him, whether it was passion, sorrow or violence.
-And finally, I see the end of the story as a blending of the two orientations: Ennis has both the joy of knowing he was loved with an enduring and steadfast love and the sorrow of knowing that he realized it only too late, when the one he loved was beyond his reach. It is the tragic circle of BBM that can't be broken - in order for Ennis to realize how much he loved and was loved in return, he needs the catalyst of Jack's death. With Jack's death, all hope for that love is taken from him. The circle continues. There is no way into or out of it for Ennis. I wish I could see it in a more peaceful light but I can't acknowledge one without the other and I truly believe that this is why Ennis draws the measure of a day not from what happens from dawn to dusk but from what transpires while he sleeps:
…..yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream……
I really do love that this story (both in the original SS version and the movie) gives us so much detailed information about these characters and their lives and yet leaves so many 'open spaces' at the same time that each one of us can draw so many different conclusions, sometimes far apart and sometimes winding around again to meet each other on the other side. :ghug:
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I'm a long time getting back to this thread. What a great conversation taking place. :c)
It's always a pleasure, FlwrChild. Welcome back to the conversation.
First I'll just reiterate that I do not think that Jack's love wore out. I think it was worn down but not nearly out. The instinctive way in which he set aside his own pain to comfort Ennis in the final confrontation says it all to me. Jack loved Ennis because it was in his very nature to do so, whether it brought him pain, happiness or both. How long he might have endured we'll never know but for those 20 years I believe his love was and stayed solid.
Just to give my take on the different theories being discussed here:
[...]
-I still don't think that Ennis had a true epiphany about his feelings for Jack until after Jack died. I have always thought that although Cassie's comment to him in the diner gave him pause to look at things somewhat differently, it was not nearly as significant as many others feel (and partially because it wasn't even in the SS, although I think I'd feel this way anyway). I don't think that Ennis breaking up with Cassie necessarily meant he was prepared to make a life with Jack, though he was certainly planning to meet him in November. I think he had realized that his feelings for her would never pass the barriers he had in place and that the relationship could never go anywhere, but not because he was ready to embrace a life with Jack. I think that all of those pieces fell into place with his visit to LF. The enormous loss struck him immediately upon receiving that postcard, but processing all of the pieces into place happened in that moment in Jack's closet, just imo.
I agree with you here, and would use a metaphor, where the love Ennis felt with Jack was a mountain that he had to climb. He let go of Cassie in order to return to the mountain, knowing that's where he belongs, but not knowing what to do, or even conscious of the mountain itself. But as you said, when Jack died, the grief made him realized how much he lost. And the shock of discovering those two shirts hanging in the closet all these years, the energy of knowing he was loved all those twenty years, the lost of opportunities living with Jack and Ma Twist, building a cow and calf operation, that was what pushed him over the edge, and climbed that mountain, and embraced the love.
-We actually do see Ennis cry on a couple of previous occasions. At the end of that first summer when he collapses in the alley, he cries out as well as dry heaving and punching the wall (I've always thought that was one of the most impressive things Heath did in this film - that sound tore at my heart). And in the divorce scene in the courthouse he has tears in his eyes as the judge renders the divorce final. For me these scenes show the depth of feeling that he is both capable of and oh so dtermined to hold at bay whenever possible. Ennis always tried so hard to keep control, it's not surprising that emotion almost always burst out of him, whether it was passion, sorrow or violence.
-And finally, I see the end of the story as a blending of the two orientations: Ennis has both the joy of knowing he was loved with an enduring and steadfast love and the sorrow of knowing that he realized it only too late, when the one he loved was beyond his reach. It is the tragic circle of BBM that can't be broken - in order for Ennis to realize how much he loved and was loved in return, he needs the catalyst of Jack's death. With Jack's death, all hope for that love is taken from him. The circle continues. There is no way into or out of it for Ennis. I wish I could see it in a more peaceful light but I can't acknowledge one without the other and I truly believe that this is why Ennis draws the measure of a day not from what happens from dawn to dusk but from what transpires while he sleeps:
…..yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream……
I love every word here. :ghug: The joy and the sorrow. The joy is the sorrow; the sorrow is the joy.
I really do love that this story (both in the original SS version and the movie) gives us so much detailed information about these characters and their lives and yet leaves so many 'open spaces' at the same time that each one of us can draw so many different conclusions, sometimes far apart and sometimes winding around again to meet each other on the other side. :ghug:
The love that never gets old, no matter how many times we come back to visit.
Thanks for all this. ^f^
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-And finally, I see the end of the story as a blending of the two orientations: Ennis has both the joy of knowing he was loved with an enduring and steadfast love and the sorrow of knowing that he realized it only too late, when the one he loved was beyond his reach. It is the tragic circle of BBM that can't be broken - in order for Ennis to realize how much he loved and was loved in return, he needs the catalyst of Jack's death. With Jack's death, all hope for that love is taken from him. The circle continues. There is no way into or out of it for Ennis. I wish I could see it in a more peaceful light but I can't acknowledge one without the other and I truly believe that this is why Ennis draws the measure of a day not from what happens from dawn to dusk but from what transpires while he sleeps:
…..yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream……
***
Thanks for continueing this discussion, and following lance, I wish to comment specifically on the above passage. The reason is because I had posted similar sentiments in my last post in "who had the greater sorrow" thread. What you say here is in effect an expansion of some of my thoughts relating to this. And interestingly enough, if throws a light on the nature of Jack's love. The shirts, which finally brought about the realization in Ennis, had really been close to the core of Jack's understanding of his love for Ennis. It is fitting that the shirts were the ones that finally revealed posthumously the vision of love that Ennis could understand. I think it was this aspect (with Ennis's shirt inside Jack's) that endured even after death. I think that it is this aspect never wore out.
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Did Jack's love wear out? Absolutely not. There's no way it ever could. Their love was true and eternal love, something beyond this life and world. Did Jack's hope that Ennis would finally listen to him and live with him wear out? It somewhat did, although I don't believe that it would ever completely disappear. Jack would always have some hope of Ennis finally coming around and listening to him, even if it was just a tiny sliver of hope, it would always be there. What had diminished over the years was Jack's hope of the shared life together, not his love for Ennis.
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Did Jack's love wear out? Absolutely not. There's no way it ever could. Their love was true and eternal love, something beyond this life and world. Did Jack's hope that Ennis would finally listen to him and live with him wear out? It somewhat did, although I don't believe that it would ever completely disappear. Jack would always have some hope of Ennis finally coming around and listening to him, even if it was just a tiny sliver of hope, it would always be there. What had diminished over the years was Jack's hope of the shared life together, not his love for Ennis.
Perfectly nuanced, athena0204. This is pretty much how I feel.
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The last time they see each other, when Ennis tells Jack he can't meet him in August because he has to work and then tells him if he has a better idea, and Jack replies, "I did once," it's clear that all Jack has ever wanted in this life is to be with Ennis. The only reason he went to Mexico looking for prostitutes and the only reason he started a relationship with Randall was to distract himself and numb the pain of being apart from Ennis. If Ennis had listened to him from the beginning, then Jack would have been faithful and committed to him forever. Jack's love for Ennis never diminished in the slightest. Any other relationship he had was completely meaningless. He had only one soulmate, and he only loved one person and that's Ennis. And all those years Jack had kept up hope that one day Ennis would listen to him, but during their last meeting in 1982, Jack realized how much time they'd lost living like this, and looked back with frustration and regret at what could have been, and what should have been. It was at that point that his hope for that life with Ennis where they didn't have to be apart began to fade, and although it could never fade completely, Jack felt weary of trying to get through to Ennis. He knew that Ennis wanted the same thing he wanted, he knew Ennis loved him as much as he loved him, but he felt that Ennis would always let his fear control his life and because of that it had deprived them of being together all the time, Ennis's fear had deprived them of being fully happy, and condemned them to living for the few times each year they could see each other, instead of living with each other and waking up to each other every day of the year. If Jack had lived, there is still no doubt that they would have continued seeing each other several times a year, and Jack would have continued trying to get Ennis to listen to him, because while his hope of that sweet life had diminished, it could never fade away completely. The sad thing is how Ennis does finally get the courage and realize what he should have done a long time ago, but it is after Jack's death.
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I do agree that in spite of his toying around with other men, Jack probably would have been monogamous and faithful to Ennis, had Ennis agreed to live together. For me, the root of all this toying around is frustration -- as a kind of drug or alcohol to forget a problem that would not go away. None of these peccadillos would indicate to me that Jack's love was wearing out, IMO.
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I do agree that in spite of his toying around with other men, Jack probably would have been monogamous and faithful to Ennis, had Ennis agreed to live together. For me, the root of all this toying around is frustration -- as a kind of drug or alcohol to forget a problem that would not go away. None of these peccadillos would indicate to me that Jack's love was wearing out, IMO.
Very well said. That's a great analogy. I've always seen it this way too. Jack used these meaningless relationships with other men to numb the immense pain and frustration of being apart from Ennis, and being a prisoner of not living the life he wanted with him, very much like someone would use drugs or alcohol to numb their pain and temporarily not have to deal with that pain. All Jack ever wanted was Ennis, and all he needed was Ennis. And had Ennis listened to him, he would always be completely faithful and loyal to him.
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The last time they see each other, when Ennis tells Jack he can't meet him in August because he has to work and then tells him if he has a better idea, and Jack replies, "I did once," it's clear that all Jack has ever wanted in this life is to be with Ennis. The only reason he went to Mexico looking for prostitutes and the only reason he started a relationship with Randall was to distract himself and numb the pain of being apart from Ennis. If Ennis had listened to him from the beginning, then Jack would have been faithful and committed to him forever. Jack's love for Ennis never diminished in the slightest. Any other relationship he had was completely meaningless. He had only one soulmate, and he only loved one person and that's Ennis. And all those years Jack had kept up hope that one day Ennis would listen to him, but during their last meeting in 1982, Jack realized how much time they'd lost living like this, and looked back with frustration and regret at what could have been, and what should have been. It was at that point that his hope for that life with Ennis where they didn't have to be apart began to fade, and although it could never fade completely, Jack felt weary of trying to get through to Ennis. He knew that Ennis wanted the same thing he wanted, he knew Ennis loved him as much as he loved him, but he felt that Ennis would always let his fear control his life and because of that it had deprived them of being together all the time, Ennis's fear had deprived them of being fully happy, and condemned them to living for the few times each year they could see each other, instead of living with each other and waking up to each other every day of the year. If Jack had lived, there is still no doubt that they would have continued seeing each other several times a year, and Jack would have continued trying to get Ennis to listen to him, because while his hope of that sweet life had diminished, it could never fade away completely. The sad thing is how Ennis does finally get the courage and realize what he should have done a long time ago, but it is after Jack's death.
Very good ideas...I completely agree!
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I don't think Ennis blamed himself, nor is he to be blamed for Jack's death (whether by accident or murder). My impression of Ennis as portrayed by Heath is someone who was grieving for the loss of someone he loved, for the opportunity to love and be loved, because by the time he sent the postcard to Jack, he dumped Cassie and was ready to face this thing with no reins, this thing he finally had a name, love. It's why the screenwriters injected the diner scene. It makes the scene in Lightning Flats more poignant.
In a sense, the Ennis that went to Lightning Flats was the Ennis that Jack met, the reticent, quiet, withdrawn, polite, dutiful, follow the rules Ennis that would not stir trouble. The trauma of Jack's death, not unlike the trauma of losing his parents at an early age, put him back to familiar territory, the withdrawn cowboy. That's why he suffered in silence when the old man bullied him with the Randall bits. He was angry, he was hurt, but he did nothing, and suffered in silence as he always did...gotta stand it if you can't fix it. But fortunately, Jack's Ma stepped in, as she must have done often with Jack, placed a gentle compassionate hand on his shoulder, and guided him away from the bully to find refuge upstairs, in Jack's room. She kept it like it was when he was a boy...a refuge away from the angry storm of a man.
That one scene in the kitchen was masterful and prepared the perfect scene in the bedroom. Without the confrontation with the old man, when Ennis was not placed at the depth of despair, thinking he lost Jack, not only physically, but also in love, the moment of truth, of finding those shirts would not be as powerful as it was, breaking down all the walls that kept Ennis locked up tight. The love that Ennis thought he lost, the love that he yearned for, burst forth in a moment that energized him, and perhaps for the first time in his life, he cried.
I see the light that is Jack's Ma, the angel of compassion and gentleness, and the light that is Jack's love, the love that has no end, and the light that is Ennis' devotion, the faithfulness that is singular and true.
I have been told that I see the end differently than others, and I do not apologize for it, but I also understand others' point of view.
:ghug: I hope you find peace in/from the movie, whatever you see.
:\'( :\'(, but eventually peace.
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Very well said. That's a great analogy. I've always seen it this way too. Jack used these meaningless relationships with other men to numb the immense pain and frustration of being apart from Ennis, and being a prisoner of not living the life he wanted with him, very much like someone would use drugs or alcohol to numb their pain and temporarily not have to deal with that pain. All Jack ever wanted was Ennis, and all he needed was Ennis. And had Ennis listened to him, he would always be completely faithful and loyal to him.
Thanks athena0204. I do think that compared to Ennis, everyone else was "second best". But this is perhaps a bit inaccurate. For Jack, Ennis was the only one. And anything else was simply a distraction. And distractions cam in handy only when Jack became increasingly frustrated and stymied by Ennis's fears.