Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: ms.bluesky on Jul 14, 2006, 11:04 PM
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ok ive been thinking why does alma just watch and dont do nothing is she afraid that something will happen or she just confused :s) i think she though like well he was ennis's fishing budding and has been waiting all night to meet him and this is what happens what else could have happened between them or why didnt she confront him about later???????????????????
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It's something so far out of her limited life-experience and so far from anything she can imagine Ennis doing that she's simply incapable of reaction. She freezes as some people do when they see a snake, and to her Jack becomes the snake in the grass.
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Plus, there's a need to just close the door and close her eyes and maybe it will go away. She didn't know at that time how far this was going to go. Maybe if it was just a "one-shot thing" and she can try to pretend it never happened. She probably had no idea what she was looking at, the assumption being she was a virgin when she got married, so wasn't very worldly when it came to sexual matters. She doesn't confront Ennis until after she's all set up safe and sound at Monroe's and there's no fall out if Ennis gets pissed off at her.
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It's something so far out of her limited life-experience and so far from anything she can imagine Ennis doing that she's simply incapable of reaction. She freezes as some people do when they see a snake, and to her Jack becomes the snake in the grass.
I agree. I am guessing nothing in Alma's background ever prepared her for what she saw. I'm sure homosexuality to her was some vague notion that had everything to do with hell and damnation. I bet she didn't even believe it when she saw it. I'm sure Ennis had never kissed her like that before. I bet over the years, she even questioned whether her eyes were playing tricks on her that day. That's why I bet she put that note on the end of his fishing pole. :f)
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There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.
This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.
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ok O0
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There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.
This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.
Yes! That's precisely it - brilliant point! They may seem loving kisses that Ennis gives Alma, but they also seem very deliberately so, deliberately gentle. They lack the fierceness and heat of the Ennis/Jack kiss. Maybe she hadn't realised Ennis had such passion in him?
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There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.
This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.
I think the passion of the kiss surely shocked Alma to the core. But I have a feeling if Alma saw them even kiss on the lips, passion or no passion, she would have been stunned. I mean, Ennis is a "cowboy;" the ultimate in masculinity and manhood. Kissing another man on the mouth, or even on the cheek probably would've been taboo. I know if I saw my husband kiss another man on the lips at all, I would be shocked.
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There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.
This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.
I think the passion of the kiss surely shocked Alma to the core. But I have a feeling if Alma saw them even kiss on the lips, passion or no passion, she would have been stunned. I mean, Ennis is a "cowboy;" the ultimate in masculinity and manhood. Kissing another man on the mouth, or even on the cheek probably would've been taboo. I know if I saw my husband kiss another man on the lips at all, I would be shocked.
Yeah, but I just think Alma would not have had an reference point for what she saw and would therefore have let it pass - sure, she would have been uncomfortable about it, but I think she may have thought that it was something that did happen between very close friends. But what tore her apart was the ferocity and passion of the kiss and all the other touching and clutching that she sees too.
Just my opinion, mind..... :-\\
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There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.
This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.
I think the passion of the kiss surely shocked Alma to the core. But I have a feeling if Alma saw them even kiss on the lips, passion or no passion, she would have been stunned. I mean, Ennis is a "cowboy;" the ultimate in masculinity and manhood. Kissing another man on the mouth, or even on the cheek probably would've been taboo. I know if I saw my husband kiss another man on the lips at all, I would be shocked.
Yeah, but I just think Alma would not have had an reference point for what she saw and would therefore have let it pass - sure, she would have been uncomfortable about it, but I think she may have thought that it was something that did happen between very close friends. But what tore her apart was the ferocity and passion of the kiss and all the other touching and clutching that she sees too.
Just my opinion, mind..... :-\\
I agree at the time when this was set (in the early 1960's) homosexuality was seldom written or spoken about. Alma was probably shocked at the passion as you mentioned and maybe not the kiss itself . For all she knew this was how cowboys greeted each other .
I remember in the 1960's at Waverley Station in Edinburgh when I saw some French men greet each other with kisses on the cheeks......to my British mind this was very very alien. Nowadays even some British men (albeit pretentious ones) greet each other with kisses.
We have to remember when and where this was set and not compare it with anything that we see today. This is the thing about this movie for us older gays...we remember these days before gay themes were used in movies , books and television and how isolated we felt because we believed ( at that time) that no one else was like us.
I think the shock of the passion Ennis was showing to this 'old buddy' was what rooted Alma to the spot.
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It's something so far out of her limited life-experience and so far from anything she can imagine Ennis doing that she's simply incapable of reaction. She freezes as some people do when they see a snake, and to her Jack becomes the snake in the grass.
I like this quote...well put!
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There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.
This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.
I think the passion of the kiss surely shocked Alma to the core. But I have a feeling if Alma saw them even kiss on the lips, passion or no passion, she would have been stunned. I mean, Ennis is a "cowboy;" the ultimate in masculinity and manhood. Kissing another man on the mouth, or even on the cheek probably would've been taboo. I know if I saw my husband kiss another man on the lips at all, I would be shocked.
If i saw my husband (if i had one),he would be out on his ear,but i'm not Alma,and initially like you said,she was in shock.Also,the times were different although personally i still see no reason why she didn't confront him there and then,but i have to think this is Alma,not me.When Ennis goes off with Jack after the reunion kiss,Alma has a lot of thinking time.She loved Ennis,didn't want to lose him,didn't want to break up her family,although ultimately that is what happens as she couldn't take the strain of living a lie and it still eats away at her until she finally confronts him at the thanksgiving.So my conclusion is the combination of shock,and fear caused Alma not to say anything for years.
Jennis.x
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ok ive been thinking why does alma just watch and dont do nothing is she afraid that something will happen or she just confused :s) i think she though like well he was ennis's fishing budding and has been waiting all night to meet him and this is what happens what else could have happened between them or why didnt she confront him about later???????????????????
I was just reading an article and it reminded me of your thread.I already left a comment,but thinking about Alma in that situation and you asked why did she freeze,i said before initially it would of been shock,not just because Ennis was kissing another man but Alma'a head must of been racing with thoughts about their own sex life etc.We know Ennis liked to turn her over and do it Jack style and i suspect as soon as Ennis went off for the weekend she was thinking of all of this and the worst thing for Alma would probably be the thought that Ennis prefered men,or didn't love her at all but just used her as a cover.I think as a female that would be the natural progression of thought and she didn't want to lose him to anybody,let alone Jack,so she stayed quiet for years.
Jennis.x
Here is the article i was reading...
Sat, Jul. 15, 2006
KELLY RICHARDSON: TEEN TALK
Readers put in their two cents' worth
Dear Readers: As always, you have a lot to say about responses to questions. Here is just a small sample of replies from recent columns. Whether you agree with me or not, I do appreciate your input and thank you for reading the column.
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DEAR KELLY: I cannot believe your answer to the young girl whose father came out of the closet! Are you short of clients and wanting to guarantee this young girl will need therapy, because you just taught her to believe her father chose to disrupt the family and change his orientation. Congratulations. You just made her difficult situation more difficult. Now she has a scapegoat for all the family troubles. How nice! How many other kids reading this will think of their gay parents as the cause of their problems rather than as courageous individuals who can teach anyone a lesson in fearless honesty. But we can't have kids actually learning to admire and love their gay parents when it's so much more convenient to blame them.
As a therapist, you should be ashamed of yourself!!
• • •
Kelly, regarding your column today about the Dad "coming out," the film "Brokeback Mountain" opened the door to many situations such as you report -- throughout the country and world.
For whatever societal pressure, gay men who felt pressured into marrying are finally beginning to realize that they are no longer obligated to deny who they are, and are going forward into a life reflecting their true identities, and with a person they can truly love physically and spiritually. The daughters and family need to shed their misplaced anger and think of their father's happiness instead. -- D. H.
• • •
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/local/states/california/15046177.htm
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She couldn't believe what she sees
she starts at them , and makes sure that's what she's seeing....
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Alma was probably shocked at the passion as you mentioned and maybe not the kiss itself . For all she knew this was how cowboys greeted each other .
No, I don't think so Tombul. Alma was either raised on a ranch or around ranchers. I think she knew she had never seen men kiss before. It was the kiss that was the shock but adding to it was the intensity of the kiss she saw.
I have often wondered why the 4th of July scene was put into the picture. Now I wonder if it was put in to show that Ennis could be a very violent man. After all, skinny little Ennis took on and defeated two rather large bikers. I think it showed Alma she never wanted to get Ennis mad. Perhaps this is why she never mentioned what she saw.
And I remembered the 60s well. I was sure I was the only person in the world who was attracted to men. If I had only known then what I know now.
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It's also true that at the moment of the reunion alma is tied down by two young children - her sitaution is like that of many women in marriages that might not work well but in which they are trapped by economic factors. When she gets the job she is financially more independent and gets to know Monroe; in the supermarket scene it'sd clear that he's at least fond of her, so she has an alternative. By the Thanksgiving scene she's his wife, with a much nicer home than she ever had before, pregnant with his child, Ennis's two girls supported by his payments, and in a much better position to say what she thinks.
Immediately after the reunion scene she's in no position to risk her future and that of the girls, even if she wants to, but I still think she's simply incapable of dealing with what she's seen.
(If this all sounds like some sort of rehashed feminist stuff, i'm sorry - much as I loathe feminism and all its works, it's insidious and occasionally has some relevance to the real wolrd.)
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Great post Welshwitch. It is true that in the 60's people remained in marriages for financial and economical reasons. Families and society saw these , mostly, women as failures if they tried to make a breakand the blame for break ups was usually laid at their door.
I have aunts who did that very thing....you know everyone saying " Well he works hard, he brings in the dough, so what if he slaps her once in a while". I heard other women say that when I was growing up in the 60's.
Nowadays there is better support for women who want to work, and family tends to understand more now. It works both ways now, if a man is gay then he can also leave. I had never thought of the material differences between Alm's life with Ennis and later with Munroe before. Good point
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I came to the same conclusion about why the Fourth of July scene was put in the movie. Also, the scene when Ennis leaves Alma's house after the Thanksgiving fiasco and goes to the tavern and gets into a fight in the street. I agree that Ennis had a violent side.. I think when he brought the girls to the store for Alma to take care of while she was working showed that side too. Just remember the look Ennis gave Alma when she said she couldn't take the girls because she had a lot of work to finish up there first. Alma immeidately backed down. I think she knew just how far she could push Ennis and didn't want to cross that line. I think that's part of the reason she never brought up having seen the reunion kiss to Ennis. She knew he would explode. Just my opiinion. I think Ennis had trouble with all sorts of emotions, not just love and friendship. (I still love him, though!)
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One can only guess what went through Alma's mind at this point. Like Ennis, she was stoic and used to hardships. AS was also noted in one of the above posts, she also had children to raise and she tried her best to help Ennis support them.
The strength of Alma's character has not been noted too often in these threads, and I am partly guilty of not stressing this enough. It calls for strong inner control -- to try to seem unflustered after seeing them kiss.
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She seems to be as good as Ennis at repressing her emotions most of the time - she cries only after he's gone off with Jack. Later, even during the divorce,she's outwardly unemotional, if cold - trying not to show her feelings? They burst out only in the Thanksgiving scene, after which her relationship with Ennis apparently ends, because, i think, she's finally almost voiced and certainly implied that she knows exactly what the relationship with Jack involved, and she can't cope with knowing and having anything to do with Ennis.
Then I wonder whether Ennis, knowing that Jack has admitted to going to Mexico and why, would feel that things betweeen them had also changed irrevocably - the two scenes seem in some ways parallel.
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Excellent points...however DE-NIAL is not just a river in Egypt!
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There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.
This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.
I think the passion of the kiss surely shocked Alma to the core. But I have a feeling if Alma saw them even kiss on the lips, passion or no passion, she would have been stunned. I mean, Ennis is a "cowboy;" the ultimate in masculinity and manhood. Kissing another man on the mouth, or even on the cheek probably would've been taboo. I know if I saw my husband kiss another man on the lips at all, I would be shocked.
If i saw my husband (if i had one),he would be out on his ear,but i'm not Alma,and initially like you said,she was in shock.Also,the times were different although personally i still see no reason why she didn't confront him there and then,but i have to think this is Alma,not me.When Ennis goes off with Jack after the reunion kiss,Alma has a lot of thinking time.She loved Ennis,didn't want to lose him,didn't want to break up her family,although ultimately that is what happens as she couldn't take the strain of living a lie and it still eats away at her until she finally confronts him at the thanksgiving.So my conclusion is the combination of shock,and fear caused Alma not to say anything for years.
Jennis.x
When I first saw BBM it never occurred to me that Alma DIDN'T know what she was seeing. I thought she was stunned because when she saw that kiss between Jack and Ennis she REALIZED some hard truths about her husband and her marriage.. A lot of wives turn a blind eye to their husbands cheating, especially when they have children and limited resources.
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When I first saw BBM it never occurred to me that Alma DIDN'T know what she was seeing. I thought she was stunned because when she saw that kiss between Jack and Ennis she REALIZED some hard truths about her husband and her marriage.. A lot of wives turn a blind eye to their husbands cheating, especially when they have children and limited resources.
that's exactly what i thought. i think she did know what she saw there - that's why she was frozen in that place when she saw E&J - but she didn't know what to do. in her mind, there was no way that she could divorce ennis (notice that she wanted to go to the church social, but ennis didn't want to... i think alma was probably brought up with a catholic(?) background that told her to stay with her husband or something...)
just my 2 cents... hope you understand what i mean.. it's already 0:40am here and i'm getting tired... ::)
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This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.
Maybe she'd've thought that's what Texans do!
Sorry -- I know this is a serious discussion but I couldn't help it, kind of. (^)
kathy
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When I first saw BBM it never occurred to me that Alma DIDN'T know what she was seeing. I thought she was stunned because when she saw that kiss between Jack and Ennis she REALIZED some hard truths about her husband and her marriage.. A lot of wives turn a blind eye to their husbands cheating, especially when they have children and limited resources.
Interesting, jesseanne -- most people, I believe, think of her as so inocent. But the hard truth of those times was economic inequality and minimum opportunities for women -- it would have been hard for her to try to get rid of him and be on her own. Uncommon, too -- probably a disappointment to her family, her church. (And without feminism, and other social changes, women in situations like Alma's would still be the norm.) But things did improve for her, and the girls got older, and she had a nice suitor.
Which reminds me: I wonder, in Wyoming divorce law at the time, if grounds were needed, as opposed to "no-fault" divorce. What would she have said is her reason for filing for dissolution of marriage?
I do think she was afraid of Ennis, also -- another thing very common in those times in that culture. Though I was proud of her when she kept walking when Ennis was yelling about her putting dinner on the table. That's the only scene I actually dislike Ennis. Though the truth is, I just think they should have written better lines for him right then, about why he was mad she was going to work. ("We aint' gonna eat unless you put it on the table." F**king bozo -- put it on the damn table yourself. BFD. Maybe the fight was really about sex. Maybe she wasn't letting him do her any more...but I stray...)
kathy
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When I first saw BBM it never occurred to me that Alma DIDN'T know what she was seeing. I thought she was stunned because when she saw that kiss between Jack and Ennis she REALIZED some hard truths about her husband and her marriage.. A lot of wives turn a blind eye to their husbands cheating, especially when they have children and limited resources.
Interesting, jesseanne -- most people, I believe, think of her as so inocent. But the hard truth of those times was economic inequality and minimum opportunities for women -- it would have been hard for her to try to get rid of him and be on her own. Uncommon, too -- probably a disappointment to her family, her church. (And without feminism, and other social changes, women in situations like Alma's would still be the norm.) But things did improve for her, and the girls got older, and she had a nice suitor.
Which reminds me: I wonder, in Wyoming divorce law at the time, if grounds were needed, as opposed to "no-fault" divorce. What would she have said is her reason for filing for dissolution of marriage?
I do think she was afraid of Ennis, also -- another thing very common in those times in that culture. Though I was proud of her when she kept walking when Ennis was yelling about her putting dinner on the table. That's the only scene I actually dislike Ennis. Though the truth is, I just think they should have written better lines for him right then, about why he was mad she was going to work. ("We aint' gonna eat unless you put it on the table." F**king bozo -- put it on the damn table yourself. BFD. Maybe the fight was really about sex. Maybe she wasn't letting him do her any more...but I stray...)
kathy
I agree that divorce probably wasn't an option for Alma at the time she saw them kiss. I know many couples who would've married about the same time as Alma and Ennis and they are still together, despite having unfullfilled marriages. You just didn't divorce. Period. Plus, she had two young kids, and I genuinely think she loved Ennis. So, maybe she did realize exaclty what she saw, and a lightbulb went off for her, like "Now I know why he's so moody and only wants to have sex with me face down."
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I think Alma is limited in all sorts of ways, and though we don't often say so, Ennis is a complex character - Jack says "You're too much for me" at the end; I think Ennis is too much for Alma from the moment he receives and replies to the first postcard. She eventually settles for Monroe because he's straightforward and undemanding ( or in my view boring). Seing him and Jack together is the beginning of her realisation that she's involved in but not part of something she doesn't ( and probably doesn't want to) understand.
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And what it must have done to Alma - her pride, her self-respect -when she begins to realize, What ELSE can I do? I cook for him, clean for him, I give birth and raise his kids, I work because he loves these stupid dead-end jobs so's he can quit at a moment's notice to be with that Nasty Man...and still he doesn't kiss me like that! This must have eaten her up. Did he even love me? Was he just using me? How demeaning to sit there and watch her husband jittery and excited about one of his fishing trips - knowing she was being lied to. Thinking of all the times SHE wanted to go out and do something fun, maybe go to the mountains for even a bit of a drive with the girls -- and Ennis was always saying he had to work, unwilling to be sociable.
Alma was as stuck as Ennis was. She was caught up in what will the neighbors think? Will her family still even talk to her if she's a divorcee? And what about love - what decent man would even take on a divorced woman with two little kids? A 26 yr. old woman can't divorce and raise two little girls on her own! I think it took Alma a long time to get to the stage where she felt confident enough to strike out on her own. Ennis was supposed to be the love of her life. But she wasn't the love of his life. And she probably hated herself because she couldn't stop loving him and didn't know how to stop.
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I lways rationalize this by saying that she didn't fall in love with Ennis the way he did with Jack; what she found with Monroe was what she wanted. I don't see her as being capable of a grand passion ( but that's probably because I don't want to). But being deserted and humiliated is certainly what she feels, and maybe being frightened and confused by the reason for that, too.
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And what it must have done to Alma - her pride, her self-respect -when she begins to realize, What ELSE can I do? I cook for him, clean for him, I give birth and raise his kids, I work because he loves these stupid dead-end jobs so's he can quit at a moment's notice to be with that Nasty Man...and still he doesn't kiss me like that! This must have eaten her up. Did he even love me? Was he just using me? How demeaning to sit there and watch her husband jittery and excited about one of his fishing trips - knowing she was being lied to. Thinking of all the times SHE wanted to go out and do something fun, maybe go to the mountains for even a bit of a drive with the girls -- and Ennis was always saying he had to work, unwilling to be sociable.
Alma was as stuck as Ennis was. She was caught up in what will the neighbors think? Will her family still even talk to her if she's a divorcee? And what about love - what decent man would even take on a divorced woman with two little kids? A 26 yr. old woman can't divorce and raise two little girls on her own! I think it took Alma a long time to get to the stage where she felt confident enough to strike out on her own. Ennis was supposed to be the love of her life. But she wasn't the love of his life. And she probably hated herself because she couldn't stop loving him and didn't know how to stop.
Very good points, smilesalot. I got the impression that Alma was still carrying a torch for Ennis during that Thanksgiving scene, and I mean more than just the angry torch. I think she still loved him and was angry at him for not loving her back. My sister is divorced from an ex husband she could care less about. She doesn't give him a second thought, despite all the crap he pulled during her marriage (for which she has every reason to be angry about). She just doesn't care because she doesn't care about him. But Alma has that fire in her eyes and the pain just seems to be so raw for her, like there are feeling still there. And, let's face it, Ennis is way hotter than Monroe! (Sorry, I couldn't resist). ^-^
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I agree. Alma never got over Ennis. Her hurt was too deep. If she didn't really love Ennis so much, she would not have been so devastated when she saw Ennis and Jack kissing. Subconsciously, from that point on, I think Alma began to withdraw from Ennis. I don't think she meant to, but the hurt in finding out she was not his true love had to come between them. That was the beginning of the end. Still, after the divource, she wanted to see him happy.
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Very good points, smilesalot. I got the impression that Alma was still carrying a torch for Ennis during that Thanksgiving scene, and I mean more than just the angry torch. I think she still loved him and was angry at him for not loving her back. My sister is divorced from an ex husband she could care less about. She doesn't give him a second thought, despite all the crap he pulled during her marriage (for which she has every reason to be angry about). She just doesn't care because she doesn't care about him. But Alma has that fire in her eyes and the pain just seems to be so raw for her, like there are feeling still there. And, let's face it, Ennis is way hotter than Monroe! (Sorry, I couldn't resist). ^-^
You leave Monroe out of this -- this ain't his fault!
Good points both, smilesalot and stacp. Especially about Alma still having strong feelings. You're so right, and I never really thought much of it before. She obviously cares still for Ennis or she wouldn't still be so angry in that Thanksgiving scene. Your sister's feelings (no feelings) for her ex, a good example.
Actually, I don't even mean to come here and discuss Alma. I get tied up in a perspective from the other side, and I don't really want to. She, Lureen and Cassie have never been of focus or interest to me -- I don't want them to be. If they were, I might see this movie quite differently. They are an important part of the men's stories, but this is NOT a movie about marital infidelity. Not to me. I'm sure other people see it as that, as the evils of gayness, ruining families.
Which reminds me of a woman friend I just spoke with after it had been a while, who would normally be all over Ennis and Jack and their love; but she's going through a painful divorce right now, with a cheating husband and two kids, and it was just the wrong time for her to see BBM.
kathy
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It's true - a friend who was divorced many years ago, though her husband had found himself a younger blonde, still speaks of him with great bitterness ( though of her previous ex-husband with some affection) hates the whole idea of BBM and blames Jack and Ennis for what they feel for each other - her only sympathies are with the two wives. Her feeling is that from the moment you find out the person you thought loved you actually loves someone lese more is the moment you begin to hate them. However, once you start looking at things from the wives' perspective, it distorts the movie as it was made - it's not meant to be abour their experiences.
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It's true - a friend who was divorced many years ago, though her husband had found himself a younger blonde, still speaks of him with great bitterness ( though of her previous ex-husband with some affection) hates the whole idea of BBM and blames Jack and Ennis for what they feel for each other - her only sympathies are with the two wives. Her feeling is that from the moment you find out the person you thought loved you actually loves someone lese more is the moment you begin to hate them. However, once you start looking at things from the wives' perspective, it distorts the movie as it was made - it's not meant to be abour their experiences.
Very good point Welshwitch. I've never really thought too much about how Alma must have felt (and Lureen to a lesser extent because she didn't know until the end) After seeing the movie for the first time, I came out talking about how tragic Ennis and Jack's relationship was and how sad I felt that they never got to really be together - but one of the friends I went with saw the whole thing from Alma's perspective and was angry at Ennis (in particular) for ruining her life. I suppose that would change your view of the movie - maybe that's why my friend never really "got it"....
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It's true - a friend who was divorced many years ago, though her husband had found himself a younger blonde, still speaks of him with great bitterness ( though of her previous ex-husband with some affection) hates the whole idea of BBM and blames Jack and Ennis for what they feel for each other - her only sympathies are with the two wives. Her feeling is that from the moment you find out the person you thought loved you actually loves someone lese more is the moment you begin to hate them. However, once you start looking at things from the wives' perspective, it distorts the movie as it was made - it's not meant to be abour their experiences.
Very good point Welshwitch. I've never really thought too much about how Alma must have felt (and Lureen to a lesser extent because she didn't know until the end) After seeing the movie for the first time, I came out talking about how tragic Ennis and Jack's relationship was and how sad I felt that they never got to really be together - but one of the friends I went with saw the whole thing from Alma's perspective and was angry at Ennis (in particular) for ruining her life. I suppose that would change your view of the movie - maybe that's why my friend never really "got it"....
Interestingly enough, I know of a gay couple who feel exactly the same way: they blame Ennis and Jack and sympathize with the wives. I had found this interesting, though perhaps this is a bit OOT.
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I suppose now, if you set out as a gay couple from the start and don't face so many obstacles, you can take that view. It must have been very difficult in the sixties even to contemplate oneself as a gay, never mind finding a partner. In any case, men have always left their wives, ok often for this year's model, but it's almost as bad in that case.
*o)I knew a prof once who was too busy with his academic stuff to notice that his wife was spending all her time with her ( female) best friend, till she decamped to set up home with her. He was mildly surprised but got on with burning boiled eggs without too much concern.
I think once she's home and dry with Monroe Alma feels vestigial guilr and responsibility for Ennis - maybe she wants him to remarry to salve her consceienc. But really I think she's known since witnessing that kiss and never felt the same abut him again.
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Yes, it's always kind of bugged me when people say how callous both Jack and Ennis are but then I see what they're saying when you look at it from Alma's or Lureen's POV. I always kind of see Alma as the conduit for showing us why Ennis doesn't go with Jack - family responsibilities etc. -- she kind of represents society's view. I really can't think too much about Alma mostly because I can't look at Michelle Williams without melting into a pool of psychotic jealousy. (Takes two cleansing breaths.....) Not too sure what my read is on Lureen, gonna have to explore this on another thread probably. Seems to me both Jack and Lureen had a mutually advantageous partnership, I didn't get the sense Lureen thought of Jack as the love of her life really, I mean she allowed her Dad to kind of emasculate him. As for Cassie, she was kind of a parallel relationship, to show us the extent of Ennis' feelings for Jack. Like if it wasn't for Jack, maybe he would've opened up to her but he realized no one can make him feel as Jack does, and so he cuts her loose, like he should have done with Alma after Brokeback.
It's a shame that all the women get hurt but I guess that's part of tragedy, the push and pull of this story. I think the reason why Ennis was so pulled apart by his emotions is because he knew he was hurting everyone around him and he was (in his mind) stuck and couldn't figure out how to fix it. Although Alma freezes when she sees Jack & Ennis, she eventually finds a way to get herself un-stuck. The tragedy is Ennis can't overcome his fears, and realizes too late, the path he should have chosen.
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These are all very interesting posts -- and even more interesting because we women have not found our focus to be sympathy with the "wronged" women in this story. This must be yet more of the masters touch of this movie, that we who (speaking for myself) would normally be on the women's sides, are not. They are really peripheral to the story, which is of Ennis and Jack. And yes, smilesalot -- they definitely are there to represent society's view (as is Aguirre with his binoculars, etc.), represent the reasons Ennis and Jack can't be together.
Welshwitch, I'm intrigued by your saying Alma may have been feeling "vestigial guilt and responsibility" for Ennis and needed to "salve her conscience." Please elaborate? Or do you mean just because she did after all really love him, that even though he wronged her she still cared and wanted him to be well?
kathy
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These are all very interesting posts -- and even more interesting because we women have not found our focus to be sympathy with the "wronged" women in this story. This must be yet more of the masters touch of this movie, that we who (speaking for myself) would normally be on the women's sides, are not. They are really peripheral to the story, which is of Ennis and Jack. And yes, smilesalot -- they definitely are there to represent society's view (as is Aguirre with his binoculars, etc.), represent the reasons Ennis and Jack can't be together.
Personally, I think it's because I don't see it in terms of "taking sides". Of course I have huge amounts of sympathy for Alma and Lureen,but I don't see Ennis and Jack as the bad guys who cheated on their wives,the "bad guy" in the movie is the homophobic society that made sure Ennis and Jack couldn't be together,that's how Alma and Lureen ended up being dragged into it :( It's not like Ennis and Jack went into their marriages with the intention of making Alma and Lureen unhappy, they just found that they were unable to make them happy, however much they might have tried. Even if Ennis and Jack had never been re-united after that first summer (or even if they had never even met), I don't think they would have been any happier in their marriages, maybe Alma wouldn't have divorced Ennis, but it doesn't mean they would have been happy. The tragedy is that Ennis and Jack could have been happy, and so could Alma and Lureen, if they'd lived in a different time and place, I think anyone who blames Ennis and Jack for all the unhappiness in the movie is totally missing the point, imo.
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Personally, I think it's because I don't see it in terms of "taking sides". Of course I have huge amounts of sympathy for Alma and Lureen,but I don't see Ennis and Jack as the bad guys who cheated on their wives,the "bad guy" in the movie is the homophobic society that made sure Ennis and Jack couldn't be together,that's how Alma and Lureen ended up being dragged into it :( It's not like Ennis and Jack went into their marriages with the intention of making Alma and Lureen unhappy, they just found that they were unable to make them happy, however much they might have tried. Even if Ennis and Jack had never been re-united after that first summer (or even if they had never even met), I don't think they would have been any happier in their marriages, maybe Alma wouldn't have divorced Ennis, but it doesn't mean they would have been happy. The tragedy is that Ennis and Jack could have been happy, and so could Alma and Lureen, if they'd lived in a different time and place, I think anyone who blames Ennis and Jack for all the unhappiness in the movie is totally missing the point, imo.
So right, CS. These were men who tried to do the proper thing...but the world was just not set up right for them.
kathy
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I meant that having been married to him fo almost eight years and had two children with him, Alma presumably still felt she had some links with him, although she didn't want to be married to him. Seeing him on his own at Thanksgiving, the sort of family occasion when people tend to be in a sentimental mood anyway, and being settled with Monroe and about to have his baby, even Alma must have noticed the contrast between Ennis's life and hers. And it was she who initiated the divorce and left him on his own.
If Ennis were to marry again, there would be someone else to look after him, and Alma could also feel that she'd done the right thing now that both she and Ennis were settled in new relationships. In other words I think there's a lot of self-justification tied up in all this.In their society a man needed a woman to take care of him - even Alma Jr's reaction to his trailer is to suggest that he needs more furniture - it's all part of the assumption that men can't cope on their own. Alma was brought up with these assumptions, and may have a sense of guilt that she failed to isn't fulfi her conventional role as far as Ennis is concerned.
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I meant that having been married to him fo almost eight years and had two children with him, Alma presumably still felt she had some links with him, although she didn't want to be married to him. Seeing him on his own at Thanksgiving, the sort of family occasion when people tend to be in a sentimental mood anyway, and being settled with Monroe and about to have his baby, even Alma must have noticed the contrast between Ennis's life and hers. And it was she who initiated the divorce and left him on his own.
If Ennis were to marry again, there would be someone else to look after him, and Alma could also feel that she'd done the right thing now that both she and Ennis were settled in new relationships. In other words I think there's a lot of self-justification tied up in all this.In their society a man needed a woman to take care of him - even Alma Jr's reaction to his trailer is to suggest that he needs more furniture - it's all part of the assumption that men can't cope on their own. Alma was brought up with these assumptions, and may have a sense of guilt that she failed to isn't fulfi her conventional role as far as Ennis is concerned.
For sure, ww -- all the mores of the times. How interesting that Alma could get screwed by her husband loving someone else, yet still feel she didn't do right by him. We people sure are a mishmash of dynamics. Ain't none so queer as folk.
Besides, societal assumptions or not, she probably just did really care, and want to be sure he's taken care of. You're so right -- in those times, seeing a man by himself, without a woman, you'd feel sorry for him.
kathy
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I find it so interesting that the definition of "fidelity" is really questioned in this story. Part of the brilliance, really. For Ennis, it's okay if Jack has relationships with women, even cats around on his wife...but explodes, or rather implodes, into anger when faced with the knowledge Jack has been with other women. On the other hand, Alma has no problem prodding Ennis to find another woman to take care of him, yet, bitterly opposes the knowledge of his relationship with Jack. Granted, Alma and Ennis were divorced, but I felt no residual jealousy from her regarding another woman, yet, immense jealousy towards Jack. The societal viiew comes out again....for Ennis, its okay for Jack to be with other women -- heck, m/f relationships are the norm. But Jack with another man? Hold up! That would mean this wasn't a one-shot deal, that would mean Jack was queer! That ain't right. Ennis has no point of reference to deal with his feelings on this. Same with Alma. Ennis with a woman? That's okay, that would mean he was normal. But with Jack? Hell no! That would mean the father of her children was some kind of deviant. Again, Alma's totally ill-quipped to cope with this.
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In other words heterosexual fidelity is the norm, heterosexual infidelity can be accommodated, but homosexual fidelity and infidelity are equally unacceptable to the straight, while homosexual infidelity is much more problematic to those involved. Just another example of double standards.
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Oh, I agree. Alma couldn't comprehend what see what seeing when see saw Ennis kissing Jack. It threw her for a loop and it seems she accepted it in some way over the years. Well, she had to. She was married with kids. Poor Alma
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Oh, I agree. Alma couldn't comprehend what see what seeing when see saw Ennis kissing Jack. It threw her for a loop and it seems she accepted it in some way over the years. Well, she had to. She was married with kids. Poor Alma
"why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss"
Because she is a woman and likes seeing two men in love? :)
(Just looking for another topic and couldn't resist.)
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"why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss"
Because she is a woman and likes seeing two men in love? :)
(Just looking for another topic and couldn't resist.)
;D ;D
I think that explains why a lot of us on here freeze when watching them kiss....but I have a feeling there may have been more to it for Alma!
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Actually, I usually freeze Jack and Ennis during this part, and then watch it again and again v e r y s l o w l y. >:D
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I didn't say what I was freezing, Smiles ;D
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I kinda agree with most of you, but I agree even more with the fact of the pasion in the kiss... Alma is thinking: He has NEVER kissed me like that! and she also asks herself what does that man have that she doesn't and why does this man make Ennis feel so happy and she can't do it, and also she thinks that Ennis is not considering her feelings when he leaves to his fishing trips...
But most of all, she says that the girls are worried because he is alone, but we know (and she knows to) that he is not THAT alone, and if he considers marriage again, the woman he marries will sufer the same way she did, and she is not thinking a lot about THAT...
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Oh, I agree. Alma couldn't comprehend what see what seeing when see saw Ennis kissing Jack. It threw her for a loop and it seems she accepted it in some way over the years. Well, she had to. She was married with kids. Poor Alma
"why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss"
Because she is a woman and likes seeing two men in love? :)
(Just looking for another topic and couldn't resist.)
:8 Whatever gave you that idea? ;) ;D Maybe that's what Alma was doing with her bag, looking for her binoculars?! ;D
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Oh, I agree. Alma couldn't comprehend what see what seeing when see saw Ennis kissing Jack. It threw her for a loop and it seems she accepted it in some way over the years. Well, she had to. She was married with kids. Poor Alma
"why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss"
Because she is a woman and likes seeing two men in love? :)
(Just looking for another topic and couldn't resist.)
:8 Whatever gave you that idea? ;) ;D Maybe that's what Alma was doing with her bag, looking for her binoculars?! ;D
Did she have any?? O.o Because if she did, then she wasn't as angry as she looked like in that Thanksgiving lol
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Oh, I agree. Alma couldn't comprehend what see what seeing when see saw Ennis kissing Jack. It threw her for a loop and it seems she accepted it in some way over the years. Well, she had to. She was married with kids. Poor Alma
"why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss"
Because she is a woman and likes seeing two men in love? :)
(Just looking for another topic and couldn't resist.)
:8 Whatever gave you that idea? ;) ;D Maybe that's what Alma was doing with her bag, looking for her binoculars?! ;D
:8 :8 :8 :8
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People often freeze in the face of danger, a sort of primitive response, almost like kids who think if they cover their eyes and can't see you, you can't see them. It's as though Alma doesn't want to give a clue to her presence because what could they say if they knew she was there, and what could she say? And also because she's confronting something she can't quite take in but knows is dangerous and destructive as far as she's concerned - a bit like seeing a poisonous snake or spider.
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People often freeze in the face of danger, a sort of primitive response, almost like kids who think if they cover their eyes and can't see you, you can't see them.
Like a deer caught in the headlights.
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And at that point I feel sorry for herm because there's nothing she can do that won;t be the wrong thing. Not to mention that she's watching her marriage fall apart in front of her, with all that implies.
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People often freeze in the face of danger, a sort of primitive response, almost like kids who think if they cover their eyes and can't see you, you can't see them.
Like a deer caught in the headlights.
This is very apt.
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Alma has a much worse time than Lureen too - Lureen may suspect, may be disappointed in Jack in some ways, but she never sees the reality of his love for Ennis. Alma can;r be in any doubt after the reunion kiss of Ennis's feelings for Jack. I can ( when in an atypically feminist mode) see her here as being deprived of her female identity and descending into looking unkepmt, unattractive and scruffy, while behaving shrewishly and trying to assert herself. In a sense the divorce is inherent in this scene - she changes when she marries Monroe, looks better, dresses better, has more confidence, and gets pregnant again, which she deliberately hasn't done with Ennis.
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Alma has a much worse time than Lureen too - Lureen may suspect, may be disappointed in Jack in some ways, but she never sees the reality of his love for Ennis. Alma can;r be in any doubt after the reunion kiss of Ennis's feelings for Jack. I can ( when in an atypically feminist mode) see her here as being deprived of her female identity and descending into looking unkepmt, unattractive and scruffy, while behaving shrewishly and trying to assert herself. In a sense the divorce is inherent in this scene - she changes when she marries Monroe, looks better, dresses better, has more confidence, and gets pregnant again, which she deliberately hasn't done with Ennis.
Also, the revelation came out of the blue -- as far as Alma was concerned. In a sense, she was naive. Had she not seen the kiss, would she have suspected? Perhpas after a while -- Ennis was so careless. But at the moment she sees them kissing, her whole world must have indeed come crashing down. It takes a while to take it all in -- and yet she had sense enough to withdraw and try to internalize her own turmoil.
It is hard to know at the point of introduction who harbored the greatest innder turmoil. It is a miracle than ony of them spoke at all in that scene...
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It's convincing that they resort to social generalities but don't quite manage to sound natural, as one wouldn;t in a situation as fraught as this.
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People often freeze in the face of danger, a sort of primitive response, almost like kids who think if they cover their eyes and can't see you, you can't see them. It's as though Alma doesn't want to give a clue to her presence because what could they say if they knew she was there, and what could she say? And also because she's confronting something she can't quite take in but knows is dangerous and destructive as far as she's concerned - a bit like seeing a poisonous snake or spider.
...
It's convincing that they resort to social generalities but don't quite manage to sound natural, as one wouldn;t in a situation as fraught as this.
Yes. So true about her reaction. No matter what she did it wouldn't be okay. And she didn't have time to think about what to do.
And then, as to the little "pleasantries" between them, amazing any of them could keep it seeming natural. Especially as the SS says Ennis could fairly feel the floorboards shake from Jack's psyched up energy.
Here is a series of pics. Especially the first two. Alma was seeing this interchange between them, so even if she hadn't seen the passion in their kiss, she sure might have thought these men were acting odd... And they're all breathless. And then Ennis hustles Jack out the door.
kathy
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi75.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F644914%2Freunion06a.jpg&hash=a4b9288609687391cb4eb80753ab8f80da14ef8b)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi75.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F644915%2Freunion06b.jpg&hash=073da9865dc6286bc9289e76a11cb551e3763be2)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi75.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F644916%2Freunion06d.jpg&hash=f0e9460dd5ca601aa2c3a2ddc6b52a79423c0cf1)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi75.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F644917%2Freunion06f.jpg&hash=fd7b5d81ad8851c0c9d8f15d3f33faf8e6de893e)
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People often freeze in the face of danger, a sort of primitive response, almost like kids who think if they cover their eyes and can't see you, you can't see them. It's as though Alma doesn't want to give a clue to her presence because what could they say if they knew she was there, and what could she say? And also because she's confronting something she can't quite take in but knows is dangerous and destructive as far as she's concerned - a bit like seeing a poisonous snake or spider.
...
It's convincing that they resort to social generalities but don't quite manage to sound natural, as one wouldn;t in a situation as fraught as this.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi75.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F644917%2Freunion06f.jpg&hash=fd7b5d81ad8851c0c9d8f15d3f33faf8e6de893e)
HE'S MINE !!!!!
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Yes. So true about her reaction. No matter what she did it wouldn't be okay. And she didn't have time to think about what to do.
And then, as to the little "pleasantries" between them, amazing any of them could keep it seeming natural. Especially as the SS says Ennis could fairly feel the floorboards shake from Jack's psyched up energy.
Here is a series of pics. Especially the first two. Alma was seeing this interchange between them, so even if she hadn't seen the passion in their kiss, she sure might have thought these men were acting odd... And they're all breathless. And then Ennis hustles Jack out the door.
kathy
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi75.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F644914%2Freunion06a.jpg&hash=a4b9288609687391cb4eb80753ab8f80da14ef8b)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi75.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F644915%2Freunion06b.jpg&hash=073da9865dc6286bc9289e76a11cb551e3763be2)
Kathy - these two photos are amazing. I don't think I've ever actually looked that closely at their expressions before, but their faces say it all, even if Alma hadn't seen them kiss - the little smile between them in the first one and the longing in Jack's eyes (presumably reflected in Ennis's) in the second. I always thought you could feel the electricity between them watching this scene (capturing the sense of the floorboards shaking) but you can see it too. Wow.
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We should also try to put ourselves in Alma's shoes. She had no way of understanding all this. In many ways, she is an innocent victim at this point -- forced in a few seconds to come tro grips with the possibility of her entire marriage being a total lie. What else could she have done but freeze and withdraw? So much that was meaningful to her was at stake...
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Wow! Love those pics Kathy, that little shared smile between them at the doorway. You can see how they're both trying SO HARD to be normal but they can't help but be all giggly and trembly and giddy from being together after four long years.
I also love the little smile Ennis gives Alma when Jack says the "I gotta boy. Eight months old. Smiles a lot" line. Ennis just looks up and his whole face says, "Isn't he great? Don't you just love him?"
No wonder Alma can't handle it. The last time she saw her husband this happy was tobogganing in the snow, and maybe now she's questioning even that, and what kind of life they've built together.
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We should also try to put ourselves in Alma's shoes. She had no way of understanding all this. In many ways, she is an innocent victim at this point -- forced in a few seconds to come tro grips with the possibility of her entire marriage being a total lie. What else could she have done but freeze and withdraw? So much that was meaningful to her was at stake...
Absolutely. This is a shocking, devastating moment for her, and without any real understanding of what is happening. It would seem, also, she had no one she could possibly talk to about this. Why she just soldiered on, until her situation changed and she was safe and secure with Monroe.
kathy
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Wow! Love those pics Kathy, that little shared smile between them at the doorway. You can see how they're both trying SO HARD to be normal but they can't help but be all giggly and trembly and giddy from being together after four long years.
I also love the little smile Ennis gives Alma when Jack says the "I gotta boy. Eight months old. Smiles a lot" line. Ennis just looks up and his whole face says, "Isn't he great? Don't you just love him?"
No wonder Alma can't handle it. The last time she saw her husband this happy was tobogganing in the snow, and maybe now she's questioning even that, and what kind of life they've built together.
Love what you said here! And of course, this has to be one of your favorite scenes -- your name. :)
And I always have to say, what an amazing job these two did. As I've said before, it's not some caricature lust they portrayed here, but absolutely full every moment of subtlety and nuance. It's easy to play that caricature, but what they did is infuse these characters with a very unique love with their every look and touch and word.
kathy
kathy
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A lot of what gets us about the movie is this kind of subtlety - I just had the thought ( unlikely to impossible but humor me) of how this would have been done in a silent movie - all rolling eyes and over-reactions!
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Well actually, WW, not much of a stretch there really. A lot of this movie is silent, and the music kind of moves it along, so much is said in expressions and gestures, a glance under a hat, a fidgety shifting of the feet, or in this scene...with Alma fiddling with her purse. It's amazing how so much is said...just by the way Ennis is leaning against a wall. If we look at the pictures above and then juxtapose that to the way Ennis is leaning against Aguirre's trailer in the beginning of the movie...what a difference, huh? There's the answer to why alma freezes. She knows Ennis' body as only a wife can, and the message his body is sending is NOT one she wants to hear.
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We should also try to put ourselves in Alma's shoes. She had no way of understanding all this. In many ways, she is an innocent victim at this point -- forced in a few seconds to come tro grips with the possibility of her entire marriage being a total lie. What else could she have done but freeze and withdraw? So much that was meaningful to her was at stake...
Absolutely. This is a shocking, devastating moment for her, and without any real understanding of what is happening. It would seem, also, she had no one she could possibly talk to about this. Why she just soldiered on, until her situation changed and she was safe and secure with Monroe.
kathy
I had wondered whether she confided with Monroe. I don't know whether she did this soon after the first reunion, but I think it is likely that she must have told him later about what she saw. You are right, though: at the moment, she had nobody to confide to -- her life seemed to have revolved around Ennis and the children. It makes the betrayal much harder to swallow...
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A lot of what gets us about the movie is this kind of subtlety - I just had the thought ( unlikely to impossible but humor me) of how this would have been done in a silent movie - all rolling eyes and over-reactions!
Funny! "Rolling eyes and over-reactions." Crazy. And like the SNIT would be something like that scene with Rudolph Valentino and what's-her-name, Ennis would have to swoon in Jack's arms.
In kind of the same vein, it is always interesting to be watching the scenes without the sound (such as in music videos, or even stills) and see how much comes across without words. Oh, but the words, the words! Beautiful, perfect, essential, poetic, spare words.
kathy
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Well actually, WW, not much of a stretch there really. A lot of this movie is silent, and the music kind of moves it along, so much is said in expressions and gestures, a glance under a hat, a fidgety shifting of the feet, or in this scene...with Alma fiddling with her purse. It's amazing how so much is said...just by the way Ennis is leaning against a wall. If we look at the pictures above and then juxtapose that to the way Ennis is leaning against Aguirre's trailer in the beginning of the movie...what a difference, huh? There's the answer to why alma freezes. She knows Ennis' body as only a wife can, and the message his body is sending is NOT one she wants to hear.
Wow -- that is so true. Not just all the expressions and his face and all that, that she sees, but actually his body, humming with this energy and loose at the same time. Not to mention, how he was all day waiting for Jack.
kathy
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I had wondered whether she confided with Monroe. I don't know whether she did this soon after the first reunion, but I think it is likely that she must have told him later about what she saw. You are right, though: at the moment, she had nobody to confide to -- her life seemed to have revolved around Ennis and the children. It makes the betrayal much harder to swallow...
You think she told Monroe later? Before that Thanksgiving dinner? I wonder about this, will have to give it some thought, think about what kind of person Monroe is. He didn't seem the slightest bit uncomfortable with Ennis, which is interesting in itself -- he didn't see him as a threat at all. Which could mean he knew Ennis's inclinations were elsewhere. But if he knew this, what would his attitude have been? What kind of social perceptions did he have? Maybe he was a little ahead of his time, and maybe the grocery business put him in touch with all kinds of people and he might have had tolerance for people who were different. Although gay was not an acceptable "different." So, if he did know, would he be the kind that wouldn't want such a man around his step-daughters? He wouldn't really have anything to say about that, though. But once his and Alma's kids were born, would he want Ennis to stay away. Anyway, at the T'giving dinner, he was just mellow, and didn't over-react to Ennis's storming out of there, either.
Just thinking out loud.
kathy
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You think she told Monroe later? Before that Thanksgiving dinner? I wonder about this, will have to give it some thought, think about what kind of person Monroe is. He didn't seem the slightest bit uncomfortable with Ennis, which is interesting in itself -- he didn't see him as a threat at all. Which could mean he knew Ennis's inclinations were elsewhere. But if he knew this, what would his attitude have been? What kind of social perceptions did he have? Maybe he was a little ahead of his time, and maybe the grocery business put him in touch with all kinds of people and he might have had tolerance for people who were different. Although gay was not an acceptable "different." So, if he did know, would he be the kind that wouldn't want such a man around his step-daughters? He wouldn't really have anything to say about that, though. But once his and Alma's kids were born, would he want Ennis to stay away. Anyway, at the T'giving dinner, he was just mellow, and didn't over-react to Ennis's storming out of there, either.
Just thinking out loud.
kathy
I did notice that Monroe and Alma exchanged looks at the end of the dinner table scene, and I had wondered if this indicated that they had shared knowledge about Ennis. I really can't prove that Monroe knew about Ennis, but I do consider it plausible. Even if we assume that Monroe did not know before this scene, it would have been plausible that he got to know more after the scene. How could Alma explain the outburst to Monroe after Ennis had left? Was she even up to it?
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If he runs the only supermarket there is, and that seems likely, he presumably has to deal with all the local chacracters and be reasonably non-commital about his own likes and dislikes. He seems, in the peanut scene, to be reasonable and not liable to fly into tantrums - the same in the TG scene. there of course he knows he's got Alma - she left Ennis, married him and is pregnant, so he's in no danger of losing her. I don't think Ennis's going there is a very regular thing, moer something Alma does because she feels secure with Monroe and knows Ennis is having a much worse time than she is.
If I had to guess, given her character I'd say she won;t have discussed Ennis's sexuality with Monroe 9or anyone else). There are all sorts of plausible reasons for her having left ennis; some of them must have been apparent when she was working in the supermarket. Monroe, on the other hand, may well have heard the local gossip about Ennis - Ennis clearly thinks he's being looked at oddly in Riverton because he says so, and unless he's totally paranoid that's presumably true. So monroe may well have a sense that he's prefectly safe from Ennis, since Ennis wasn't really interested in Alma and is no threat.
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Monroe did strike me as a level-headed character. And I do think he was accepting of Alma and truly loved her. I do think it is quite possible that he would not have asked probing questions to her about Ennis, especially if he knew that this was a bad subject.
Whether Alma told Monroe or not, I remain uncertain. Alma had great self-control and it took her years -- till the thanksgiving scene -- before she finally cracked and confronted Ennis. But confront him she did, and I wonder that, given time and circumstances, she would not have confided inevitably to Monroe, who was so supportive and caring. I did feel that the children did inevitably come to know, and this is perhaps either through their own insight or through things discussed quietly in Monroe's house.
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You think she told Monroe later? Before that Thanksgiving dinner? I wonder about this, will have to give it some thought, think about what kind of person Monroe is. He didn't seem the slightest bit uncomfortable with Ennis, which is interesting in itself -- he didn't see him as a threat at all. Which could mean he knew Ennis's inclinations were elsewhere. But if he knew this, what would his attitude have been? What kind of social perceptions did he have? Maybe he was a little ahead of his time, and maybe the grocery business put him in touch with all kinds of people and he might have had tolerance for people who were different. Although gay was not an acceptable "different." So, if he did know, would he be the kind that wouldn't want such a man around his step-daughters? He wouldn't really have anything to say about that, though. But once his and Alma's kids were born, would he want Ennis to stay away. Anyway, at the T'giving dinner, he was just mellow, and didn't over-react to Ennis's storming out of there, either.
Just thinking out loud.
kathy
I did notice that Monroe and Alma exchanged looks at the end of the dinner table scene, and I had wondered if this indicated that they had shared knowledge about Ennis. I really can't prove that Monroe knew about Ennis, but I do consider it plausible. Even if we assume that Monroe did not know before this scene, it would have been plausible that he got to know more after the scene. How could Alma explain the outburst to Monroe after Ennis had left? Was she even up to it?
The look they shared was about Ennis's story about bronc-riding wasn't it? But still, that look could mean any number of things. I do agree, though, that it's quite likely that after that whole outburst between them and Ennis storming out, that eventually Alma might well have told Monroe the whole story.
kathy
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I couldn't remember, so I just went and checked the Movie Recital thread, to see if Alma, in the Thanksgiving/kitchen scene, said that she'd seen Ennis and Jack that day. But she didn't. Just talked about not going up there to fish, because of her putting the note on the end of his line. So he still doesn't even know that she saw them.
kathy
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I couldn't remember, so I just went and checked the Movie Recital thread, to see if Alma, in the Thanksgiving/kitchen scene, said that she'd seen Ennis and Jack that day. But she didn't. Just talked about not going up there to fish, because of her putting the note on the end of his line. So he still doesn't even know that she saw them.
kathy
Yes, as far as the kiss, I don't think Alma would ever tell him. Fear may be part of the reason...
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I couldn't remember, so I just went and checked the Movie Recital thread, to see if Alma, in the Thanksgiving/kitchen scene, said that she'd seen Ennis and Jack that day. But she didn't. Just talked about not going up there to fish, because of her putting the note on the end of his line. So he still doesn't even know that she saw them.
kathy
Yes, as far as the kiss, I don't think Alma would ever tell him. Fear may be part of the reason...
I could spend some time imagining how their lives might have been different if she had told him she had seen them. Probably not that next morning, but after he got home from that first fishing trip. But her not telling him has such veracity for the story, the character.
kathy
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I could spend some time imagining how their lives might have been different if she had told him she had seen them. Probably not that next morning, but after he got home from that first fishing trip. But her not telling him has such veracity for the story, the character.
kathy
Had the marriage ended sooner, would it had been better for all? Had Alma nor froze when she saw it -- had she come out and confronted them, would the shock and trauma have forced Ennis's hand?
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What an interesting question! Part of me says yes, Ennis would have been so horrified to be confronted by his wife who knew ther was at least something "queer" about her husband that he'd have watched Jack drive away as he'd done four years earlier. The other part says that after that kiss Jack wouldn't have given up so easily, and maybe once things had settled down perhaps if he'd reappeared Ennis would have gone on with the fishing trips, but I'm not so sure he wouldnl't have been even more jumpy about the whole thing and even less able to get away.
Alma clearly isn't the "Stand by Your Man" type - she ditches Ennis, but later, when she has husband number two lined up - whether she's have been so keen to divorce him while she still had two very young children is another question. Of course, if she had, maybe then, at that point and after the reunion, Ennis just might have been more malleable, and also more alone. If the grounds for the divorce had been Ennis's behavior with Jack, he would have had no access to the girls and therefore less reason to stick around in
Rriverton.
I think I've argued myself around to thinking that if there had been a huge confrontation, started by Alma when she saw them, the whole story would have ended quite differently, or could have, at least.
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This would have been equivalent to outing Ennis, no? It would have left him no choice but face up to his fears. Not so sure how that would have ended. It could have ended with him totally distancing himself from Jack. But it is also likely that this would have pushed him straight into Jack's arms.
Alma reacted the way most people would react when faced with such a sight. I think people tend to be more cautious when faced with something they could not understand in an instant. Had she been a bit more impulsive/aggressive, things might have indeed come to a head much earlier.
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Whether you put it down to "When in doubt, do nothing" or just good old cowardice, the fact that Alma simply does nothing at this point dictates the rest of the story. What if she'd asked Ennis not to go, demanded that if he goes he comes back later in the evening and doesn't stay out all night? There's a degree to which she colludes here and with the later fishing trips - if she didn't, there would have to be some other solution but she never forces Ennis to choose between her and Jack.
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Whether you put it down to "When in doubt, do nothing" or just good old cowardice,the fact that Alma simply does nothing at this point dictates the rest of the story. What if she'd asked Ennis not to go, demanded that if he goes he comes back later in the evening and doesn't stay out all night? There's a degree to which she colludes here and with the later fishing trips - if she didn't, there would have to be some other solution but she never forces Ennis to choose between her and Jack.
WW, you are so right...if Alma was a little more like Lureen and had marched down the stairs when she say Ennis and Jack kissing and demanded to know what was going on things would have gone very differently.
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Whether you put it down to "When in doubt, do nothing" or just good old cowardice, the fact that Alma simply does nothing at this point dictates the rest of the story. What if she'd asked Ennis not to go, demanded that if he goes he comes back later in the evening and doesn't stay out all night? There's a degree to which she colludes here and with the later fishing trips - if she didn't, there would have to be some other solution but she never forces Ennis to choose between her and Jack.
Very interesting. You're so right, about Alma's colluding in this. Odd that I never exactly looked at it that way before. She knows who Jack is, knows who her husband and Jack are to each other, and continues to "let" Ennis go away with Jack without her showing her hand, saying what she knows. I know in the beginning it was probably her feeling helpless -- the man was king, she needed him for supporting her and two young kids; but later on, she could go out to work and feel more independent of him...and then not all that long afterwards got herself to the place where she could divorce him easily. So I understand in the beginning years her not confronting him with what she knew, but later on, she could have, once she didn't need him for security anymore. I guess she waited until she was totally free of him (of his child support and probably alimony when she was still single) and secure with Monroe, and then she did confront him.
kathy
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You think she told Monroe later? Before that Thanksgiving dinner? I wonder about this, will have to give it some thought, think about what kind of person Monroe is. He didn't seem the slightest bit uncomfortable with Ennis, which is interesting in itself -- he didn't see him as a threat at all. Which could mean he knew Ennis's inclinations were elsewhere. But if he knew this, what would his attitude have been? What kind of social perceptions did he have? Maybe he was a little ahead of his time, and maybe the grocery business put him in touch with all kinds of people and he might have had tolerance for people who were different. Although gay was not an acceptable "different." So, if he did know, would he be the kind that wouldn't want such a man around his step-daughters? He wouldn't really have anything to say about that, though. But once his and Alma's kids were born, would he want Ennis to stay away. Anyway, at the T'giving dinner, he was just mellow, and didn't over-react to Ennis's storming out of there, either.
Just thinking out loud.
kathy
I never thought I'd say this Kathy, but I see it totally differently ??? I thought Monroe seemed very uncomfortable in the Thanksgiving scene, almost like an outsider in his own home.He stops carving the turkey so Ennis can tell his story about the rodeo, then when Ennis is finished Monroe looks at Alma, as if to check that it's ok to carry on,I suppose it could just be that he was just being polite, but it felt to me like he didn't appreciate having to interrupt what he was doing for Ennis,and he would've appreciated Alma telling Jr that Ennis would tell the story once Monroe had finished carving the turkey but he didn't feel that he could say anything(actually, typing that just made me think that there's a similarity there with Jack's Thanksgiving scene with LD, maybe that's what put the idea in my head? ??? It never stops, does it? ::) :) )
I think Alma wore the trousers in the relationship with Monroe,and he would've been aware that wasn't the case with Alma and Ennis,even if Alma hadn't told him anything about her and Ennis, he would've realised that from the scene in the supermarket.Monroe strikes me as the sort of guy that is always bemoaning the fact that girls always like the bad guys and never the "nice" guys like him, so in that sense he might have felt inferior in some way to Ennis(assuming Alma hadn't told him about Ennis and Jack, which personally I don't think she would). Not to mention the fact that physically Ennis was taller and more muscular than Monroe, I think Monroe would've found him very intimidating physically as well, that's the only reason I can think of for him not getting up off his chair when he heard all the commotion from the kitchen, he was very slow to react, and when he does he hardly reacts at all, Ennis, for all his faults as a husband, would've been in there like a shot if it had been the other way around.
You would think that afterwards Monroe would've asked Alma for an explanation, but I get the feeling that Alma would've said she didn't want to discuss it and Monroe would've just left it, he doesn't seem like the type to push the issue. I don't think Alma would've told Monroe about Ennis,she couldn't bring herself to confront Ennis about it for years, she was in denial about it herself for years, even went to the trouble of setting the "trap" with the fishing line, rather than just telling him what she'd seen, and then when she does confront him, it's with the creel case story, if she really wanted to force him to admit it, why not just say that she's seeing him kissing Jack? there's no way he could've said that didn't prove anything ;) I think that even after the divorce, Alma didn't want to believe that Ennis was in love with another man, maybe because of what she thought that might say about her, wasn't she a good enough wife, a "real" woman, if her husband preferred being with a man to being with her? She might have worried it would reflect badly on her if she told Monroe, and didn't want to put her new marriage at risk, either way, I don't see that she had anything to gain from telling him.
Blimey, I can't believe I wrote such a long rambling post about Monroe, of all people! :-[ Jack and/or Ennis is one thing, but Monroe?! ???
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I never thought I'd say this Kathy, but I see it totally differently ??? I thought Monroe seemed very uncomfortable in the Thanksgiving scene, almost like an outsider in his own home.He stops carving the turkey so Ennis can tell his story about the rodeo, then when Ennis is finished Monroe looks at Alma, as if to check that it's ok to carry on,I suppose it could just be that he was just being polite, but it felt to me like he didn't appreciate having to interrupt what he was doing for Ennis,and he would've appreciated Alma telling Jr that Ennis would tell the story once Monroe had finished carving the turkey but he didn't feel that he could say anything(actually, typing that just made me think that there's a similarity there with Jack's Thanksgiving scene with LD, maybe that's what put the idea in my head? ??? It never stops, does it? ::) :) )
I think Alma wore the trousers in the relationship with Monroe,and he would've been aware that wasn't the case with Alma and Ennis,even if Alma hadn't told him anything about her and Ennis, he would've realised that from the scene in the supermarket.Monroe strikes me as the sort of guy that is always bemoaning the fact that girls always like the bad guys and never the "nice" guys like him, so in that sense he might have felt inferior in some way to Ennis(assuming Alma hadn't told him about Ennis and Jack, which personally I don't think she would). Not to mention the fact that physically Ennis was taller and more muscular than Monroe, I think Monroe would've found him very intimidating physically as well, that's the only reason I can think of for him not getting up off his chair when he heard all the commotion from the kitchen, he was very slow to react, and when he does he hardly reacts at all, Ennis, for all his faults as a husband, would've been in there like a shot if it had been the other way around.
You would think that afterwards Monroe would've asked Alma for an explanation, but I get the feeling that Alma would've said she didn't want to discuss it and Monroe would've just left it, he doesn't seem like the type to push the issue. I don't think Alma would've told Monroe about Ennis,she couldn't bring herself to confront Ennis about it for years, she was in denial about it herself for years, even went to the trouble of setting the "trap" with the fishing line, rather than just telling him what she'd seen, and then when she does confront him, it's with the creel case story, if she really wanted to force him to admit it, why not just say that she's seeing him kissing Jack? there's no way he could've said that didn't prove anything ;) I think that even after the divorce, Alma didn't want to believe that Ennis was in love with another man, maybe because of what she thought that might say about her, wasn't she a good enough wife, a "real" woman, if her husband preferred being with a man to being with her? She might have worried it would reflect badly on her if she told Monroe, and didn't want to put her new marriage at risk, either way, I don't see that she had anything to gain from telling him.
Blimey, I can't believe I wrote such a long rambling post about Monroe, of all people! :-[ Jack and/or Ennis is one thing, but Monroe?! ???
Yes, funny, writing a treatise on Monroe! I see your points about him. I guess he's so mild-mannered, I couldn't read him. It seemed to me he probably felt secure with Alma, that Ennis was a loser in the ways that were important to her and to him, Monroe. But certainly there is room for Monroe to have insecurites about Ennis, just the raw manliness of him.
As to Alma and her oblique way of telling Ennis she knew, I see that, too, and that always bothered me. Also that she probably didn't tell Monroe.
kathy
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OK, she froze when she saw them kissing and said nothing the next day, or at any time after. Yet she set the note-on-the -fishing-line trap - why ? What ddi she want to prove? That they'weren'tfishing and that Ennis has been lying to her? But once she had the knowledge she did nothing with it literally for years. So he never had the chance to admit (or deny) anything, as he doesn't at Thanksgiving, so was she just keeping her knowledge to herself, as she did after the reunion, and feling smug about it? You know, "I know something you don't know I know"? ( Any minute now I'm going to get into known knowns and known unknowns and unknown unknowns!) Did she intend to use it against Ennis in the divorce? But she didn't apparently, and couldn't have backed it up with any evidence anyway.
It strikes me that Alma was as incapable of breaking out of her comfort zone as Ennis was. Of course Monroe is no problem - he comes over as lacking Ennis's strength, physical and mental. So with him she has material comfort and a husband who's probably easier to deal with than Ennis ever was. I can see why she prefers him, but I still can;t see why she acts as she does after the reunion kiss or later.
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I haven't read the thread yet, but here's my opinion.
Was Alma a christian girl? I think that she had never even heard about gays, so she was so shocked when she saw Ennis and Jack kissing, that she couldn't move even if she wanted to.
Little OT but... When i saw the film the first time, i froze myself when i saw Alma open the door and look at them. I thought, that plaese please don't say or do anything. If she had said something to Ennis, while they were still married, it might have change things, and a lot.
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Wow! Love those pics Kathy, that little shared smile between them at the doorway. You can see how they're both trying SO HARD to be normal but they can't help but be all giggly and trembly and giddy from being together after four long years.
I also love the little smile Ennis gives Alma when Jack says the "I gotta boy. Eight months old. Smiles a lot" line. Ennis just looks up and his whole face says, "Isn't he great? Don't you just love him?"
No wonder Alma can't handle it. The last time she saw her husband this happy was tobogganing in the snow, and maybe now she's questioning even that, and what kind of life they've built together.
Love what you said here! And of course, this has to be one of your favorite scenes -- your name. :)
And I always have to say, what an amazing job these two did. As I've said before, it's not some caricature lust they portrayed here, but absolutely full every moment of subtlety and nuance. It's easy to play that caricature, but what they did is infuse these characters with a very unique love with their every look and touch and word.
kathy
Absolutely true kathy. Full of subtlety, nuance, and an intense lyricism. It is almosy musical. It is music.
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Whether you put it down to "When in doubt, do nothing" or just good old cowardice, the fact that Alma simply does nothing at this point dictates the rest of the story. What if she'd asked Ennis not to go, demanded that if he goes he comes back later in the evening and doesn't stay out all night? There's a degree to which she colludes here and with the later fishing trips - if she didn't, there would have to be some other solution but she never forces Ennis to choose between her and Jack.
Yes, in a sense, she sends him out knowing what is to transpire. It was indeed so bitter for her, but she let it transpire nonetheless. Again, there is realism here. One would think that common sense would dictate that she would do everything in her power to stop them going off into the mountains -- but she did not have the strength to confront Ennis nor did she have the determination to assert her right to Ennis as his wife. How many times does such a thing occur? I can cite 2 similar instances in real life (one a childhood neighbor's family and the other a friend in grad school). Alma was like most humans in their inability to think and act in black and white. That is why her character is so believable.
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I never thought I'd say this Kathy, but I see it totally differently ??? I thought Monroe seemed very uncomfortable in the Thanksgiving scene, almost like an outsider in his own home.He stops carving the turkey so Ennis can tell his story about the rodeo, then when Ennis is finished Monroe looks at Alma, as if to check that it's ok to carry on,I suppose it could just be that he was just being polite, but it felt to me like he didn't appreciate having to interrupt what he was doing for Ennis,and he would've appreciated Alma telling Jr that Ennis would tell the story once Monroe had finished carving the turkey but he didn't feel that he could say anything(actually, typing that just made me think that there's a similarity there with Jack's Thanksgiving scene with LD, maybe that's what put the idea in my head? ??? It never stops, does it? ::) :) )
I think Alma wore the trousers in the relationship with Monroe,and he would've been aware that wasn't the case with Alma and Ennis,even if Alma hadn't told him anything about her and Ennis, he would've realised that from the scene in the supermarket.Monroe strikes me as the sort of guy that is always bemoaning the fact that girls always like the bad guys and never the "nice" guys like him, so in that sense he might have felt inferior in some way to Ennis(assuming Alma hadn't told him about Ennis and Jack, which personally I don't think she would). Not to mention the fact that physically Ennis was taller and more muscular than Monroe, I think Monroe would've found him very intimidating physically as well, that's the only reason I can think of for him not getting up off his chair when he heard all the commotion from the kitchen, he was very slow to react, and when he does he hardly reacts at all, Ennis, for all his faults as a husband, would've been in there like a shot if it had been the other way around.
You would think that afterwards Monroe would've asked Alma for an explanation, but I get the feeling that Alma would've said she didn't want to discuss it and Monroe would've just left it, he doesn't seem like the type to push the issue. I don't think Alma would've told Monroe about Ennis,she couldn't bring herself to confront Ennis about it for years, she was in denial about it herself for years, even went to the trouble of setting the "trap" with the fishing line, rather than just telling him what she'd seen, and then when she does confront him, it's with the creel case story, if she really wanted to force him to admit it, why not just say that she's seeing him kissing Jack? there's no way he could've said that didn't prove anything ;) I think that even after the divorce, Alma didn't want to believe that Ennis was in love with another man, maybe because of what she thought that might say about her, wasn't she a good enough wife, a "real" woman, if her husband preferred being with a man to being with her? She might have worried it would reflect badly on her if she told Monroe, and didn't want to put her new marriage at risk, either way, I don't see that she had anything to gain from telling him.
Blimey, I can't believe I wrote such a long rambling post about Monroe, of all people! :-[ Jack and/or Ennis is one thing, but Monroe?! ???
Wondeful exposition, CrimsonSky. Your assessment of Monroe's character impresses me a great deal. I am quite taken in. And you do give me pause to consider that Alma just kept quiet about everything. I don't know whether I am totally convinced, but I am quite willing to consider this possibility from your way of looking at things...
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I haven't read the thread yet, but here's my opinion.
Was Alma a christian girl? I think that she had never even heard about gays, so she was so shocked when she saw Ennis and Jack kissing, that she couldn't move even if she wanted to.
Little OT but... When i saw the film the first time, i froze myself when i saw Alma open the door and look at them. I thought, that plaese please don't say or do anything. If she had said something to Ennis, while they were still married, it might have change things, and a lot.
Very intereting, Twisted. When I first saw this scene, I must admit that I was too engrossed with the reunion kiss and though of Alma opening the door as an unpleasant intrusion. Still I was quite happy to see her retreat so that Jack and Ennis's bliss would remain undisturbed.
Quite a cruel reaction, in retrospect: it amazes me up to now how little sympathy I have for Alma in this scene. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
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I can see that she's watching something she can't comprehend but that is dismantling her world in front of her - but I still don't feel any sympathy for her, not even out of female solidarity ( of which I have precious little opnion anyway). This seems to show however, that those who say movies manipulate our reactions are right, though I've never thought of myself as easily manipulated by things I know to be created in order to do just that.
We identify so much wioth E and J at this point ( out of some sort of wish-fulfillment?) that we never think about Alma. When the camera moves inside with her, all we want to do is see what's developing outside.
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Yeah, we identify with J-E but if I personally saw what Alma saw. I would freeze too, but then I'd have to say a few words.? ask a few questions? Like WTF?....but I'm not Alma.She expected to see Ennis and Jack when she opened the door but not like that!
I just wished she'd said something. A part of me wants to see that exchange between her and Jack sorry I can't help it. .Maybe a knock down drag out over the man they both love. But that's just me. sigh...so much drama and I love it.
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OK, she froze when she saw them kissing and said nothing the next day, or at any time after. Yet she set the note-on-the -fishing-line trap - why ? What ddi she want to prove? That they'weren'tfishing and that Ennis has been lying to her? But once she had the knowledge she did nothing with it literally for years. So he never had the chance to admit (or deny) anything, as he doesn't at Thanksgiving, so was she just keeping her knowledge to herself, as she did after the reunion, and feling smug about it? You know, "I know something you don't know I know"? ( Any minute now I'm going to get into known knowns and known unknowns and unknown unknowns!) Did she intend to use it against Ennis in the divorce? But she didn't apparently, and couldn't have backed it up with any evidence anyway.
It strikes me that Alma was as incapable of breaking out of her comfort zone as Ennis was. Of course Monroe is no problem - he comes over as lacking Ennis's strength, physical and mental. So with him she has material comfort and a husband who's probably easier to deal with than Ennis ever was. I can see why she prefers him, but I still can;t see why she acts as she does after the reunion kiss or later.
Exactly. She is more of an enigma than it would first appear. She's not just a poor, ignorant victim. It could be a kind of manipulation to have information and keep it to herself. But she never threatened with it, then only let it be known to Ennis when it was moot anyway.
kathy
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Such a surprise/shock would make all of us freeze, wouldn't it ?
Alma probably didn't talk about it sooner since 1) she didn't want to think about the risk of loosing Ennis, 2) knowing him not being a big talker he probably wouldn't give any answer and 3) what should she than do with the answer ?
I suppose she only found the strength to speak about it to Ennis after so many years, still afraid of the answer to her question, since she needed an asnwer to the question she probably thinks about every day.
I'm convinced she's not happy with Monroe, but just accepted him since only solution for her as divorced women. To me Monroe seems such a soft man and just wanted a 'wife' since every real man who was not interested in Ennis but tolerated his presence to the thanksgiving dinner as 1) a favour to AlmaJr and 2) to show Ennis what he couldn't offer his family before.
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You're right; there must be an element in Monroe of wanting to show Ennis all the material things he can give Alma, and that she feels free with him to have the child she couldn;t afford while with Ennis. Maybe Alma feels something like the same - she is in a way paying Ennis back for all the years of uncertainty, all the times he went off with Jack, all the lies, expressed or implied, that he told her, the poverty, at least part of which was attributable to his taking only poorly-paid jobs he could dump at a few weeks' notice. Now she is secure and relatively prosperous, and he's on the outside looking in, as she once was when she saw him with Jack.
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and he's on the outside looking in, as she once was when she saw him with Jack.
I didn't see it from this point of view till now - you can be right. I don't think Ennis is looking for this material comfort.
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No, Ennis needs emotional comfort, which is what Jack gives him and I don't know if Alma ever does.
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No, Ennis needs emotional comfort, which is what Jack gives him and I don't know if Alma ever does.
Fully agree with you - that's why I think he was not really interested to 'look in from the outside' since probably not really interested in Alma's relationship with Monroe (not jalous at all - probably reassured that Alma and his daughters had a good/save home). Totally different from Alma's look on his relationship with Jack (Not knowing what to think and everything except boring)
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I don't know - sometimes I wonder if deep down Ennis wants exactly what Alma and Munroe have, a settled way of life, a home and kids, which he might have had himself if Jack hadn't come into his life. Given the turmoil and disruption loving Jack has caused, he'd have to be inhuman not to wonder, just occasionally,what his ife would have been like if the summer on Brokeback had never happened. And ironically of course he was only there to make enough money to get married...
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Deep down inside he may have wondered , even had the chance to try another serious relationship with Cassie, but could'nt or would'nt do it.
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Odd, isn't it, that Alma freezes for those few minutes after seeing the reunion kiss, while Ennis is frozen emotionally and in beliefs right till the end of the movie.
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Odd, isn't it, that Alma freezes for those few minutes after seeing the reunion kiss, while Ennis is frozen emotionally and in beliefs right till the end of the movie.
Indeed, really odd for the both of them. Alma freezes for a few seconds and as of that moment :
1) her life will never be that good/happy anymore.
2) Ennis will be happy a couple of times per year and - like you write so beautifully - 'will be frozen emotionally and in beliefs right till the end of the movie'
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So that in a way this is the defining, pivotal moment of their lives. After the summer on Brokeback it could all have ended ; neither Jack nor Ennis might have been happy, but they might have found a sort of cententment if they'd settled for that. Had Jack never come back they would never have kissed; had Alma not seen them she wouldn't have started on the path towards divorce.As she stands there at the top of the stairs the world is changing around her.
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Indeed - and she has no other choice than accept the change and try to manage it. That makes it again so real ... we all have to manage change every day
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Indeed - and she has no other choice than accept the change and try to manage it. That makes it again so real ... we all have to manage change every day
Agreed O0
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When Jack came back it seems Ennis dropped all activity with his family. I can't help but wonder if Alma would have stuck around with Ennis if he took her and the kids out once in a while and went on vacation with them occasionally and maybe brought some fish home for them. Instead, it was as if he wanted nothing to do with them any longer, he just waited for the times he could be with Jack.
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When Jack came back it seems Ennis dropped all activity with his family. I can't help but wonder if Alma would have stuck around with Ennis if he took her and the kids out once in a while and went on vacation with them occasionally and maybe brought some fish home for them. Instead, it was as if he wanted nothing to do with them any longer, he just waited for the times he could be with Jack.
That's very true. Once Jack came into his life again, Ennis couldn't keep himself away from him.
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I think Ennis kept his family and Jack separate in his mind. When Jack wasn't there he just got on with his life; when Jack was there he dropped everything to be with him. He felt guilty anyway; no way he's have brought fish home from the trip and made conversation about it. that would have brought his two worlds into collision.
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I think Ennis kept his family and Jack separate in his mind. When Jack wasn't there he just got on with his life; when Jack was there he dropped everything to be with him.
If that is true, then his life didn't include his family. He never did anything with them. He wouldn't even take Alma to the church social and insulted her by referring to church people as that fire and brimstone crowd. Alma and the girls went to church and his remark put them into that category also.
He felt guilty anyway; no way he's have brought fish home from the trip and made conversation about it. that would have brought his two worlds into collision.
Everything Ennis did do made Alma suspicious. He puts on his best shirt, paces the floor, chain smokes, chain drinks while waiting for Jack. He runs out of the house when Jack shows up. I think it would be obvious to anyone he was anxious to see Jack again. Then, he tells his wife he is going fishing but never brings home fish even after his daughter asks him to. Just something else to make Alma suspicious. He made Alma so suspicious she set a trap for him with the note. If Ennis was smart he would have brought home fish to make Alma believe that was the reason he and Jack actually went fishing. Everything Ennis did told Alma there was something going on between him and Jack and it wasn't fishing. Ennis wasn't too smart.
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I agree. I don't think he had any idea of the impression he was creating in her mind.
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I agree. I don't think he had any idea of the impression he was creating in her mind.
Once Alma has seen the boys ksissing, I don't think suspicion is the right word. She KNEW. She may not have wanted to face up to what that might mean in her marriage, so she hid her knowledge and just went on with her daily life. Surely, though, her image of Ennis had changed irrevocably from that minute on. She may not have realized what all went on on their trips, but she knew she wasn't in Ennis mind. The trips were Jack time. Very little fishing being done at all.
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And after seeing the kiss you'd have thought she'd have rmemembered Ennis's preferred sexual position and put two and two together - maybe she did.
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And after seeing the kiss you'd have thought she'd have rmemembered Ennis's preferred sexual position and put two and two together - maybe she did.
Possibly :s)
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I think Ennis kept his family and Jack separate in his mind. When Jack wasn't there he just got on with his life; when Jack was there he dropped everything to be with him.
If that is true, then his life didn't include his family. He never did anything with them. He wouldn't even take Alma to the church social and insulted her by referring to church people as that fire and brimstone crowd. Alma and the girls went to church and his remark put them into that category also.
He felt guilty anyway; no way he's have brought fish home from the trip and made conversation about it. that would have brought his two worlds into collision.
Everything Ennis did do made Alma suspicious. He puts on his best shirt, paces the floor, chain smokes, chain drinks while waiting for Jack. He runs out of the house when Jack shows up. I think it would be obvious to anyone he was anxious to see Jack again. Then, he tells his wife he is going fishing but never brings home fish even after his daughter asks him to. Just something else to make Alma suspicious. He made Alma so suspicious she set a trap for him with the note. If Ennis was smart he would have brought home fish to make Alma believe that was the reason he and Jack actually went fishing. Everything Ennis did told Alma there was something going on between him and Jack and it wasn't fishing. Ennis wasn't too smart.
Ennis certainly didn't seem to care, or was wretchedly "stupid" about hiding his affair with Jack, no? I wonder if Ennis would have changed that much even if he somehow got to know that Alma saw them kissing.
Another thing: did Alma freeze because she was thinking of whether or not to confront them? Perhaps it was a moment of indecision on her part -- not knowing automatically what to do...
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I'm sure Alma did some thinking about how she was going to handle this new knowledge she picked up by viewing the kiss. She had to weigh the pros and cons. She obviously wasn't ready to give Ennis up at this time -- didn't want to raise two little girls alone -- what could she do? On the other hand, she couldn't feel the same about Ennis as she had before the kiss. What to do? I think she did the only thing she could do -- pretend it didn't happen. However, pretend all she might, she still knew what she had seen. In those days, there would not have been any discussing this issue with Ennis. It would have just been an argument -- denial on Ennis's part, then, if his temper flared up ( as it often did) the scene could have turned nasty. Alma didn' want to chance that. For the time being, she decided to let things go. Kept her mouth shut and lived with her secret knowledge.
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I'm sure Alma did some thinking about how she was going to handle this new knowledge she picked up by viewing the kiss. She had to weigh the pros and cons. She obviously wasn't ready to give Ennis up at this time -- didn't want to raise two little girls alone -- what could she do? On the other hand, she couldn't feel the same about Ennis as she had before the kiss. What to do? I think she did the only thing she could do -- pretend it didn't happen. However, pretend all she might, she still knew what she had seen. In those days, there would not have been any discussing this issue with Ennis. It would have just been an argument -- denial on Ennis's part, then, if his temper flared up ( as it often did) the scene could have turned nasty. Alma didn' want to chance that. For the time being, she decided to let things go. Kept her mouth shut and lived with her secret knowledge.
Very well said. Perhaps she tried hard to pretend that everything was the same as before. After all, she held on to the marriage for as long as she could. She is quite interesting in her stoicism -- a stoicism not unlike Ennis's, although sometimes, I wonder if her stoicism was more extreme. It was utter humiliation for her. Perhaps her love for him was enormously greater...
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I think she stuck with him because there was at that point no alternative. When later there was, she took it.
The interesting question is what would have happened if she'd thrown Ennis out, or tried to. Would that have given him enough impetus to settle with Jack?
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I'm sure Alma did some thinking about how she was going to handle this new knowledge she picked up by viewing the kiss. She had to weigh the pros and cons. She obviously wasn't ready to give Ennis up at this time -- didn't want to raise two little girls alone -- what could she do? On the other hand, she couldn't feel the same about Ennis as she had before the kiss. What to do? I think she did the only thing she could do -- pretend it didn't happen. However, pretend all she might, she still knew what she had seen. In those days, there would not have been any discussing this issue with Ennis. It would have just been an argument -- denial on Ennis's part, then, if his temper flared up ( as it often did) the scene could have turned nasty. Alma didn' want to chance that. For the time being, she decided to let things go. Kept her mouth shut and lived with her secret knowledge.
Very well said. Perhaps she tried hard to pretend that everything was the same as before. After all, she held on to the marriage for as long as she could. She is quite interesting in her stoicism -- a stoicism not unlike Ennis's, although sometimes, I wonder if her stoicism was more extreme. It was utter humiliation for her. Perhaps her love for him was enormously greater...
I know. Can you imagine the first time they had sex after that incident, how Alma must have felt, thinking about what Ennis had probably done with Jack, if she could imagine it. But anyway, women then, in her kind of situation, so often felt "trapped" when they had young children. It wasn't too long, though, before she found her way and realized she didn't need Ennis. My sister was with a man who turned out to be horrible and abusive, but to her, the idea of trying to make her way alone, with three kids (and she didn't drive) was too much for her. She was also manic-depressive, and died at 38, leaving the kids with him. But wait, my point was, Ennis wasn't horrible and abusive -- he was "just" emotionally neglectful toward Alma. "That's a life?" you could say, but it wasn't overtly horrible anyway.
kathy
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I think she stuck with him because there was at that point no alternative. When later there was, she took it.
The interesting question is what would have happened if she'd thrown Ennis out, or tried to. Would that have given him enough impetus to settle with Jack?
I had wondered about this, but something tells me: no.
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I know. Can you imagine the first time they had sex after that incident, how Alma must have felt, thinking about what Ennis had probably done with Jack, if she could imagine it. But anyway, women then, in her kind of situation, so often felt "trapped" when they had young children. It wasn't too long, though, before she found her way and realized she didn't need Ennis. My sister was with a man who turned out to be horrible and abusive, but to her, the idea of trying to make her way alone, with three kids (and she didn't drive) was too much for her. She was also manic-depressive, and died at 38, leaving the kids with him. But wait, my point was, Ennis wasn't horrible and abusive -- he was "just" emotionally neglectful toward Alma. "That's a life?" you could say, but it wasn't overtly horrible anyway.
kathy
Ennis's favorite position must have gained added significance for Alma after the reunion. She must have put two and two together...
I think you and ww are right -- Alma probably felt trapped. This perhaps best explains her great resentment in the later years...
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I think she stuck with him because there was at that point no alternative. When later there was, she took it.
The interesting question is what would have happened if she'd thrown Ennis out, or tried to. Would that have given him enough impetus to settle with Jack?
I don't really think so... Ennis was in a state of denial and wouldn't settle with Jack even if Alma had thrown him out, because he was scared of taking the risk...