Topic: How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?

[tpe]

I agree with this. Jack did not use all the weapons in his ar**nal to convince Ennis to see it his way . This last post is one example. Perhaps Jack should have not shown up just to *test* Ennis , to see what response he he'd get from Ennis. The question is : could Jack do this though,? or would his fear of loosing Ennis weigh so heavily on him that he just could'nt stay away or not have the communication with him? I think this may have worked, as Ennis did call Jack's house after his death. he apparently had Jack's home phone no. I think He'd have called at least to find out if Jack was safe. Since a pattern had been established  with  Jack, then not showing up would fill Ennis with a sense of fear. He'd call first, and this would be the time for Jack to explain to Ennis that he was not going to play this game anymore.  Was not going to drive one more mile to meet him , only to be rejected . I think one of two things would result from this. 1. Ennis would totally withdraw, or he'd give in to Jack. Either way Jack could move on with his life....with Ennis or with Randall. Sadly we'll never know. He deserved so much better than the status quo.

I think Jack understood early on that Ennis had to be coaxed slowly and gently, if he were ever to be drawn out of the fetters of his fears.  He saw that early on, but was unwilling to use every "weapon" at his disposal to hasten Ennis's acceptance of himself and their love.  I think Jack saw Ennis as someone he can draw into himself and into his dream of a shared life slowly -- ever so gingerly.   But hope and patience are two different things, and I think he had not forseen that Ennis's fears ran too deep.  This proved Jack's undoing in the end: he understood Ennis and knew that confrontation was not the way to go, but he misunderstood how deep Ennis's fears were.  Ennis, on the other hand, sensed rightly that Jack would not push matters if he hinted reluctance, but he totally misunderstood how much a shared life meant to Jack.  Ennis also probably took Jack forgranted after some time, and it took Jack's death to awaken him on the life that was offered to him and that he inevitably lost.

[welshwitch]

I think it's true that too some degree familiarity had bred if not contempt then at least a false sense of security. Each of them saw the other as a permanent part of their life and relied without much thought on the other turning up for their regular, if infrequent, meetings, the trouble was that Jack saw those as a prelude to something better and didn;t see ennis as not looking at the situation in the same way. I don't think he reallly saw quite how deep Ennis's fears went, possibly because Ennis gives the impression of being in control of himself and the situation, right up until the last scene. Equally I don;t think Ennis saw Jack as so desperately needing him as Jack evidently did - or at least he wanted to see Jack as accepting the status quo because for Ennis that was all that was possible.

[tpe]

I think it's true that too some degree familiarity had bred if not contempt then at least a false sense of security. Each of them saw the other as a permanent part of their life and relied without much thought on the other turning up for their regular, if infrequent, meetings, the trouble was that Jack saw those as a prelude to something better and didn;t see ennis as not looking at the situation in the same way. I don't think he reallly saw quite how deep Ennis's fears went, possibly because Ennis gives the impression of being in control of himself and the situation, right up until the last scene. Equally I don;t think Ennis saw Jack as so desperately needing him as Jack evidently did - or at least he wanted to see Jack as accepting the status quo because for Ennis that was all that was possible.

WW, there was indeed a disconnect on how one saw the other, no?  Perhaps had they should have had the confrontation during the last meeting much earlier.  Or if jack had not just quietly left when Ennis turned him away after the divorce scene.  I think both came to a better understanding of the other after the last meeting -- but by then it was too late...

[aintfoolin]

Certainly right.tpe. This confrontation should have happened aways back say shortly after the reunion scene. When Ennis told Jack "aint no reins on this one" I think this is when Ennis knew he was in love with Jack . At this point Jack should have gotten a little firmer about Ennis's intentions toward him and the relationship. Confront Ennis about what they both knew was true. Call this damn bluff, this wall Ennis hid behind. L Explain to him that they were not Earl and Ray ,Laid it all out then, what he expected, what he could deal with and what he would'nt deal with.  They WERE the perfect match for each other and they both knew  and in Ennis's case , he might take flight for awhile , but I beleive he would return back home to Jack;s sheltering arms where he knows he belongs.  Ennis was vulnerable to this at that time. Ennis had already acknowledged that Alma was not his best, first  choice, Jack was. This pattern of meeting out in the woods, away from society had not been established yet. Perhaps Jack should have let Ennis  know he was worth more than that. Could have been financially set if he chose to too. Jack had the options other than waiting 20 years for Ennis  to wake up and take a wiff of the roses while all along stuck in a marriage to Lureen that had reached "do it over the phone" level. I'm sure they  enjoyed  the time they had together though those years, but for Jack it had to be like living an unfulfilled deam of a lifetime.Too much left unsaid, to much left undone. 

[tpe]

Certainly right.tpe. This confrontation should have happened aways back say shortly after the reunion scene. When Ennis told Jack "aint no reins on this one" I think this is when Ennis knew he was in love with Jack . At this point Jack should have gotten a little firmer about Ennis's intentions toward him and the relationship. Confront Ennis about what they both knew was true. Call this damn bluff, this wall Ennis hid behind. L Explain to him that they were not Earl and Ray ,Laid it all out then, what he expected, what he could deal with and what he would'nt deal with.  They WERE the perfect match for each other and they both knew  and in Ennis's case , he might take flight for awhile , but I beleive he would return back home to Jack;s sheltering arms where he knows he belongs.  Ennis was vulnerable to this at that time. Ennis had already acknowledged that Alma was not his best, first  choice, Jack was. This pattern of meeting out in the woods, away from society had not been established yet. Perhaps Jack should have let Ennis  know he was worth more than that. Could have been financially set if he chose to too. Jack had the options other than waiting 20 years for Ennis  to wake up and take a wiff of the roses while all along stuck in a marriage to Lureen that had reached "do it over the phone" level. I'm sure they  enjoyed  the time they had together though those years, but for Jack it had to be like living an unfulfilled deam of a lifetime.Too much left unsaid, to much left undone. 

aintfoolin , I think what Ennis realized too late was that living under the shadow of being lynched by a prejudiced society was not as bad as missing an opportunity to live a full life of love with each other.  Had he come to this realization sooner, he would have appreciated the love they shared all the more and would have put it above anything else. 

I really think about how it could have been had Jack been more confrontational.  Perhaps he would have succeeded in making Ennis see it his way: ake the risk for the sake of happiness in love.  But it was not meant to be.  As perfect they were for each other, they were perhaps too well matched.  If things were put at an imbalance early on, perhaps they would have seen the beauty of what they had between the two of them.

[manhattangirl]

There was one time when Jack did suggest to Ennis to move away, when Ennis was going through that long lament that he felt  people knew about them, and this was years into their their relationship,  trust should have been establish by then, the knowing that they did love each other should have been a known fact, don't you think?   

But what happened Ennis ridicule Jack.   Jack was caught between a rock and a very hard place.   The balance of power in this relationship was always in favor of Ennis.   The beauty for Ennis in this situation he could complain but never change, leaving Jack in a position of powerlessness.   

[lamusica]

That was the one time I thought Jack should have punched Ennis.  I think I would have.  He was really being a little s**t towards Jack that day at the river's edge.

[manhattangirl]

That was the one time I thought Jack should have punched Ennis.  I think I would have.  He was really being a little s**t towards Jack that day at the river's edge.

absolutely agree, right in the snort.

[jackster]

I really think about how it could have been had Jack been more confrontational.  Perhaps he would have succeeded in making Ennis see it his way: take the risk for the sake of happiness in love.  But it was not meant to be.  As perfect they were for each other, they were perhaps too well matched.  If things were put at an imbalance early on, perhaps they would have seen the beauty of what they had between the two of them.

I believe so too tpe. Though maybe not “confrontational” but mutually supportive is maybe the phrase I would use. Like in the scene after the divorce, to drive all the way there and then just turn around and leave. Huh? Why not say, “OK I’ll wait in Lander (far enough away to not raise suspicions) and come back Tuesday when the girls are back at Alma’s”. Or something else, anything that would be a benefit to both of ‘em.

This scene shows me that these two guys were really very much alike in some respects, Jack’s just sayin’ “Alright, I’ll see you next month” and taking off in a huff with a broken heart, and Ennis shuffling around and not being able to offer one word of encouragement to a guy who just spent 15 hrs drivin’ to see you. I wanted to say, come on guys, work it out; it’s not brain surgery here. After going to all this effort you’d think between 'em they’d be able to come up with a plan, but neither seemed capable of a creative thought! Like two rams butting heads sometimes. IMHO.

jackster

[manhattangirl]

IMHO:

It wasn't until the confrontation, and Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you."  that's the dam in Ennis that broke.   We've seen time and time what was going with between the two, Jack's trying over the years to convince Ennis to build a life with him, Jack said it perfectly that final day, he found his voice and if Ennis would kill him or quit him was chance Jack took.  And what provoke this whole thing, Jack felt Ennis was pushing further away. 

What was real motive for Ennis doing this,  after a night of sefl-confession, intimate moment between them, older men now, supposedly secure in their love for one another, why in heck did Ennis think he could jerk Jack around one more time.  It's like saying to Jack, "What's going in my life, will always be paramount to your needs."   Using the same premise he uses years earlier after the reunion, there is something greater than you.  Come on, Ennis did it because Ennis felt he could do it.  Of all people to one who loyal and loving. 

Losing Alma, his indifference towards Cassie will never impact him as much as losing Jack, but Jack was suppose to understand when Ennis makes a demand thats it, and what Jack's feeling, what Jack need, and his wishes have to be defferred because Ennis needs out weighs Jack.

Ennis need for control was slipping, when he realized that Jack was thinking, wishing there was a way he could get away from him.  Why do you think he wrote him, to find out he was still coming in November?   Just the idea of Jack not coming must have crossed his mind.   We all know fate took care of that.   

It was always fear with Ennis I'll give you that, but its also control.   When you have fears  you must have control.   

[lamusica]

Fear comes from not being sure of anything.  It's only natural to try to grasp something real to hang onto.  Anorexics reject food to prove they have power over their hunger urges.  Gamblers gamble to attempt to prove they have control over their money and their desire for risk-taking.  So, Ennis pushes Jack's buttons to prove he has some sort of control over him.  This may be what's at the root of Ennis's issues.  I hadn't thought of it that way before your post, manhattangirl, but it does make a sort of twisted sense, especially in someone like Ennis who really doesn't know himself very well.  I don't think he sits around self-analyzing.

[tpe]

That was the one time I thought Jack should have punched Ennis.  I think I would have.  He was really being a little s**t towards Jack that day at the river's edge.

I did think it was rather unfair for Jack.  I guess Ennis was too touchy and resented Jack's repeated overtures to come away.

Ennis did have some level-headed points in his response to Jack.  But I think he should have NOT been that dismissive of Jack.  I think he really hurt Jack in that scene, and he probably knew it.   

[tpe]

I believe so too tpe. Though maybe not “confrontational” but mutually supportive is maybe the phrase I would use. Like in the scene after the divorce, to drive all the way there and then just turn around and leave. Huh? Why not say, “OK I’ll wait in Lander (far enough away to not raise suspicions) and come back Tuesday when the girls are back at Alma’s”. Or something else, anything that would be a benefit to both of ‘em.

This scene shows me that these two guys were really very much alike in some respects, Jack’s just sayin’ “Alright, I’ll see you next month” and taking off in a huff with a broken heart, and Ennis shuffling around and not being able to offer one word of encouragement to a guy who just spent 15 hrs drivin’ to see you. I wanted to say, come on guys, work it out; it’s not brain surgery here. After going to all this effort you’d think between 'em they’d be able to come up with a plan, but neither seemed capable of a creative thought! Like two rams butting heads sometimes. IMHO.

jackster

Yes, perhaps "confrontational" is not the right word.  In the case of Jack, perhaps he should have simply persisted -- even to the point of becoming a royal pain in the a*se.  You are right that he probably should not have given up too easity in that scene after the divorce.  He understood Ennis too perfectly, and was much too considerate in this case. Had he shown that he was not just going to back down, then perhaps Ennis would have relented. 

I think the reason why Jack backed down was that he felt hurt and rejected.  Had he had a stringer stomach for this type of thing, perhaps he would have prevailed...

[tpe]

IMHO:

It wasn't until the confrontation, and Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you."  that's the dam in Ennis that broke.   We've seen time and time what was going with between the two, Jack's trying over the years to convince Ennis to build a life with him, Jack said it perfectly that final day, he found his voice and if Ennis would kill him or quit him was chance Jack took.  And what provoke this whole thing, Jack felt Ennis was pushing further away. 

What was real motive for Ennis doing this,  after a night of sefl-confession, intimate moment between them, older men now, supposedly secure in their love for one another, why in heck did Ennis think he could jerk Jack around one more time.  It's like saying to Jack, "What's going in my life, will always be paramount to your needs."   Using the same premise he uses years earlier after the reunion, there is something greater than you.  Come on, Ennis did it because Ennis felt he could do it.  Of all people to one who loyal and loving. 

Losing Alma, his indifference towards Cassie will never impact him as much as losing Jack, but Jack was suppose to understand when Ennis makes a demand thats it, and what Jack's feeling, what Jack need, and his wishes have to be defferred because Ennis needs out weighs Jack.

Ennis need for control was slipping, when he realized that Jack was thinking, wishing there was a way he could get away from him.  Why do you think he wrote him, to find out he was still coming in November?   Just the idea of Jack not coming must have crossed his mind.   We all know fate took care of that.   

It was always fear with Ennis I'll give you that, but its also control.   When you have fears  you must have control.   

manhattangirl, I think one problem with Ennis was that he never really realized until it was too late that he and Jack were not going to be around forever.  Ennis was things in a rathwer static way -- frozen forever in time, as if the Summer of 63 could be prolonged and preserved indefinitely.  This is part of the tragic flaw, I guess.  Jack probably realized this, and I think he tried to make Ennis see it too.  But to no avail -- well, Ennis did finally see this in the end, but it was too late by then...

[tpe]

Fear comes from not being sure of anything.  It's only natural to try to grasp something real to hang onto.  Anorexics reject food to prove they have power over their hunger urges.  Gamblers gamble to attempt to prove they have control over their money and their desire for risk-taking.  So, Ennis pushes Jack's buttons to prove he has some sort of control over him.  This may be what's at the root of Ennis's issues.  I hadn't thought of it that way before your post, manhattangirl, but it does make a sort of twisted sense, especially in someone like Ennis who really doesn't know himself very well.  I don't think he sits around self-analyzing.

A very perceptive post, lamusica.

I also don't think he was into that much self-analysis.  He reacted too often from his gut.  Jack saw this, and tried to work around it.  This made it seem that he was a push-over in many instances, but I do think Jack probably knew how best to deal with Ennis and was patient to a fault.

[FlwrChild]

Very good points.

Just a quick comment on some of the references made to who had the power, or control, in this relationship. It is usually percieved that Ennis did, and in many ways I would agree. But I have been in a relationship where both parties thought the other had the power. And when you believe you don't have that power, then to a certain extent it's true. It was in Ennis's power to grant what Jack wanted/needed, Jack couldn't make him do it. But Ennis was a prisoner of his own perceptions and therefore not just unwilling but unable to make those things happen. Because he genuinely believed that he had no power or control at all.

As to what each thought of the other in regard to power in the relationship, Jack probably had a better sense of what he was up against (namely Ennis's fears and confusion). Ennis, I think, didn't feel that he was up against Jack in a power struggle, so much as he was up against the whole universe.

Ennis was trapped in a room that was only locked in his mind. But even though the door was unlocked all the time, as long as he believed it was locked, he would never be able to open it.

[aintfoolin]

This is an excellent post Flowerchild, Ennis , I feel was locked up in his own world of thinking. What Jack had to do to get through to him I don'nt know but I feel Jack had his own power and control by just being near Ennis. Jack is the one who Ennis sacrificed for. Gave up a marriage for, longed for. In this sense Jack had much control over Ennis He just could not convince him that they could live together. Other than that fact Jack probably could get Ennis to agree to anything he wanted. As hardheaded as Ennis was, Jack was the one who could break down Ennis barriers, but only to a certain extent. It's like leading a horse to water but could he make him drink? That would take alot more convincing. Perhaps a comprimise or an ultimatum is in order. My opinion.

[manhattangirl]

Very good points.

Just a quick comment on some of the references made to who had the power, or control, in this relationship. It is usually percieved that Ennis did, and in many ways I would agree. But I have been in a relationship where both parties thought the other had the power. And when you believe you don't have that power, then to a certain extent it's true. It was in Ennis's power to grant what Jack wanted/needed, Jack couldn't make him do it. But Ennis was a prisoner of his own perceptions and therefore not just unwilling but unable to make those things happen. Because he genuinely believed that he had no power or control at all.

As to what each thought of the other in regard to power in the relationship, Jack probably had a better sense of what he was up against (namely Ennis's fears and confusion). Ennis, I think, didn't feel that he was up against Jack in a power struggle, so much as he was up against the whole universe.

Ennis was trapped in a room that was only locked in his mind. But even though the door was unlocked all the time, as long as he believed it was locked, he would never be able to open it.

WOW, Flwrchild,

Now you got me thinking in a new direction.  The last statement alone breaks my heart, it is so true.

[tpe]

Ennis was trapped in a room that was only locked in his mind. But even though the door was unlocked all the time, as long as he believed it was locked, he would never be able to open it.

Very beautifully said.

[masetane]

Oh the comments here are all so wonderful. going to go re-read!

[welshwitch]

"There's nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so." And of course we construct our own boundaries, walls, prisons. Ennis's father provided the bricks and Ennis built the wall - by the time he meets Jack it's too high and too strongly-constructed for anyone to be able to dismantle it.

Ennis always looks out from his defences and sees Jack in the light of what he's been led to believe; love isn;t enough to chnage him.

Jack on the other hand simply sees Ennis as he is, falls in love and accepts the fact. I don't think he understands Ennis entirely but he sees him as he is and simply lives with it.

[aintfoolin]

 I agree WW, excellent post. I love your analogy of the wall Ennis put up around himself. It is indeed a barrier to anyone who tries to break through including Jack...but if any one could break through it was Jack. Jack's approach to Ennis is the key. It's a walk on the razor's edge with this man. Like a horse who's easily spooked Jack has to be gentle with him yet a firm  focused approach is needed in my opinion. Perhaps Ennis needed to stop feeling himself and really listen to what Jack is saying. At times he is so caught up in his own misery to stop and really think about what is happening to both of them due to this unpenetrable wall he has consructed. he fails to see that it is this wall that comes to encircle Jack also who is so emotionally invested in who Ennis is. I guess misery does love company huh? But Jack is too much of a freebird to be caged up like this. Toward the end we  see Jack finally attempting to break free. He wanted Ennis but he was beginning to tire of trying to convince some one who was'nt willing to meet him halfway. Ennis's "my way or the highway" attitude proved to be him and Jack's undoing. I won't go as far as to say that Ennis intentionally wanted to hurt Jack, but if  he could've  seriously put more effort and consideration into what Jack was proposing he would find that life could've been sweeter for them both.He did eventually find this out, but by then Jack was killed. 

[tpe]

Jack saw and understood Ennis's fears perhaps better than Ennis, in some ways.   But I think it was not a question of seeing/understanding; it was more a question of patience and keeping a spark of hope that one day, he would be able to move Ennis.  In the end, perhaps Jack resigned himself to a finality that he could never win the fight against Ennis's fears.  And it is most bitter: having the knowledge of what made Ennis who he is, and Jack realizing that he could only go so far...

[aintfoolin]

Perhaps Ennis needed to realize that this love had become a part of him. He was running from himself in actuality. I think he saw himself loosing a certain control of himself, saw Jack as a threat to that control. He is one who has always been able to control every aspect of his emotional being. Every time he came near Jack physically , he saw what he loved and despised at the same time. He needed to just let go and allow these two aspects of himself to blend ,  the good and the bad to come together so that he could feel whole.  He did'nt have to loose himself for there are more than one side to everybody.  Stop trying to control where the peices fell and just go where ever the love led him and still remain  just Ennis . Jack could have worked with that I beleive. It's that ol' *force of nature" tugging at him .There had to be that little voice is his head had to tell him that there was a void without Jack in his life. He only got and gave  peices ,or little tastes of  freedom when he and Jack went on these trips into the mountains.  IMO there was 3 entities in this relationship Jack, Ennis and the consuming fear. It was Jack's competition for Ennis's soul as if it had a life of it's own. A competitor more powerful than Alma,  jobs, etc. ever was ,yet on an equal plane in it's battle with  Jack's love for Ennis.  The real enemy in this thing .  Jack saw it, fought against it, gave his best shot against it for 20 years. Ennis in a way fought to keep it safely  wrapped up in his sense of right and wrong. Guilt towards his God givin right to love. This is the thing that kept Jack from breaking completely through the wall and reaching Ennis the way he wanted to. In the last confrontation Jack finally called it out, forcing Ennis to break down in an emotional, realistic way exorcising this fear to the surface .  Jack was saying * you and you alone hold the key to both our happiness , so get over yourself and get on with it, This forced responsibility onto Ennis and showed that he was'nt just a passive participant in the affair, but in fact it was he himself who held all the cards. Jack's " your too much for me Ennis" showing his frustration at how something so clearly defined to him was so hard for the one  he loved and wanted so much to see.  Ennis himself was saying he could no longer stand what he had forced Jack to do.  Stand it. Control  totally lost , his own philosophy toward life came home to roost. ( You gotta stand it Jack) When Jack saw it, he saw Ennis's vulnerabilities exposed and Jack's nurturing, comforting embrace  as he broke down showed  a deep unconditional love for Ennis. My humble opinion.

[manhattangirl]

great post ainfoolin,

Like a horse that bucks, Ennis was thrown.  He couldn't live by the rules he himself impose.  And he lived them literally, where as Jack was more in the world and of the world.   

[ksxks]

That "I'm not you" remark says a lot about how they haven't, in Jack's opinion, grown together. Though they may have grown
old(er),  they've grown old(er) separately. Now Jack is pointing out, if he hasn't seen it before, which I think he must have done, that they aren't one and the same, as lovers often claim to be, not two halves of one whole but two separate and different people.Ennis never sees, or thinks, either, that Rich and Earl may have had many years together, and might have been glad they'd had them despite how it all ended. Ironically Jack and Ennis ended up in exactly the same way, but without having had the years together.

Oh this breaks my heart, WW.

And interesting, too, about Ennis not only witnessing the end of Rich and Earl, but their lives, too, seeped into his little formative years -- he couldn't help but end up conflicted inside.

I'm just coming to this thread and some others -- not sure how I've missed all this good stuff.  You are all saying really insightful things...though it's making me all sad again, for this love that was, but was also denied so much.

kathy

[ksxks]

And remember, Jack had worked the mountain before that previous summer so he probably  felt he had the advantage although Aquirre chided him about the dead sheep. I think Jack was taken by suprise to see this gourgeous guy standin there. This was his competition for the job I agree but do you think that Jack would just let  Ennis walk away ,never getting to know who this guy was if Ennis got the job over him? I don't think so. Luckily there were 2 jobs to Jack's delight I'm sure.

This isn't part of the deeper considerations we're talking about here...but I feel quite positive that there was not a competition thing going on in the first scene, because Jack would have known that it's a two-person job.  No way would anyone ever be sent up there alone.  Ennis didn't really know the score, but Jack would have -- a camp tender, and the herder.

So Jack was eying who he was going to be spending the summer with.  And liking what he saw...

kathy

[ksxks]

Then I guess it is fair to say that (in many ways) Ennis viewed himself and Jack through the lense of this society, and Jack sought to view their relationship outside of it...

Yep.  Ennis felt he had to follow the rules.  Jack was always into making up new ones.

kathy

[ksxks]

This a great post MG and I totally agree. The "absence makes the heart grow fonder" is fine....for a while. After enough years have past one tends to tire of postcards, letters, and phone calls.  I've personally lived this existence and that's all it really is ...an existence, not really living. Nothing  replaced real time with Ennis for Jack. He wanted more time with the one he loved. Just time. to touch, and feel and visiualize Ennis . I cannot imagine Jack's half life for 20 years. that's a long, long time to wait for some one to come around. His cheating in this case is now understandable with all the temptation he must've experienced. He rode" more than bulls*  during the separations  but not because he wanted to, but because he had no other choice. Ennis was'nt taking care of business where he should have. By not agreeing to make time with Jack, he is part responsible for Jack's infidelities. There's no way around it. He left Jack dangerously vulnerable sexually as well as mentally, emotionally and open to physical bodily harm. Had he been with Jack, he might have kept Jack from the attack of the tire irons. ( If that's what really happened,I'm not sure), but in any case Ennis had it backwards .Being WITH Jack made them safer, not separation. MHO

This is so true, so sadly ironic.

kathy

[ksxks]

These are such excellent posts.  I feel an even deeper understanding of Ennis and Jack and wht transpired between them.

You know what occurs to me, reading all of these posts?  That all of you people are very healthy psychologically and emotionally, and should have the most healthy of relationships.  Or else we have learned valuable lessons from Ennis and Jack that will serve us well in all our future things with people -- friendship or love.  Most of all, of course, to understand what we ourselves are doing, how we are living in our worlds.

kathy