Topic: How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?

[myprivatejack]

And isn't this the most important thing in a love relationship? Trying to get outside of oneself to be as addapted as possible to the other way of being;if not in being similar,in understanding and respecting it.

[tpe]

And isn't this the most important thing in a love relationship? Trying to get outside of oneself to be as addapted as possible to the other way of being;if not in being similar,in understanding and respecting it.

It is the test and testament of true love.  Love must leave the self and dwell unconditionally in the other, if it is truly love.  Love of oneself is not true love.

[myprivatejack]

It is the test and testament of true love.  Love must leave the self and dwell unconditionally in the other, if it is truly love.  Love of oneself is not true love.

AMEN TO THIS¡¡¡    ( 

[aintfoolin]

It is the test and testament of true love.  Love must leave the self and dwell unconditionally in the other, if it is truly love.  Love of oneself is not true love.

Very well said tpe.  Thank you for those words.The other important consideration is of those like Ennis who cannot recognize true love due to tramatic life events. It is important also to know how to accept true love when it finds you. Can one be blamed if one has never been shown true love or felt it? How can one love another if they don't have love of self?

[tpe]

Thanks MPJ and aintfoolin.

Very well said tpe.  Thank you for those words.The other important consideration is of those like Ennis who cannot recognize true love due to tramatic life events. It is important also to know how to accept true love when it finds you. Can one be blamed if one has never been shown true love or felt it? How can one love another if they don't have love of self?

This is a valid point.  Whereas love needs to go out of oneself in order to be true love, so it is that one must first have self-respect in order to go out of oneself.  The problem with Ennis was that he had great insecurities, and didn't give himself the proper respect -- the love of who he truly is deep inside -- and that pretty much impeded his ability to go outside of himself until it was too late.

[manhattangirl]

I was wondering about this question for a while, how did they see each other.  On the surface, Jack knew Ennis was struggling but proud, Ennis knew Jack was doing well with his griping about inflation. 

But both knew deep down inside that they were the same broke ass kids of twenty year ago, that fell in love with each other.   And maybe that where lays the problem, they really never did go beyond that, the fears youth, couldn't compete with years of living, knowing something of life and each other. 

They were still on Brokeback, and always will be.

[ksxks]

I was wondering about this question for a while, how did they see each other.  On the surface, Jack knew Ennis was struggling but proud, Ennis knew Jack was doing well with his griping about inflation. 

But both knew deep down inside that they were the same broke ass kids of twenty year ago, that fell in love with each other.   And maybe that where lays the problem, they really never did go beyond that, the fears youth, couldn't compete with years of living, knowing something of life and each other. 

They were still on Brokeback, and always will be.

All we got now is Brokeback Mountain!

kathy

[Ranchand1]

    You said that so well manhattangirl.  Have felt this from the beginning.  They could never get past Brokeback.  Even though Jack tried to move the mountain called Ennis. 

[jackster]

Yup. They’d seen near perfection in a solitary, magical world, through their youthful eyes.

There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours.

After this how could anything seem it’s equal. Alone together, with the ability to construct their own fantasy world, nothing would ever, could ever, match the moment up on Brokeback.

[babytammy7]

Yup. They’d seen near perfection in a solitary, magical world, through their youthful eyes.

There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours.

After this how could anything seem it’s equal. Alone together, with the ability to construct their own fantasy world, nothing would ever, could ever, match the moment up on Brokeback.

I agree with you, friend. And I don't know why but what you said made me cry.They live all those 20 years up in BBM, even if they never returned to Brokeback...That's why I get sad when I watch that first part in the film, because I know that was the best moment in their lives and I know they'll never have it again...From now on, sadness, hurt, fears, even if they shared beautiful moments of joy and love during their fishing trips; but, for me, it was never the same. 

[rimasworld]

I agree with you, friend. And I don't know why but what you said made me cry.They live all those 20 years up in BBM, even if they never returned to Brokeback...That's why I get sad when I watch that first part in the film, because I know that was the best moment in their lives and I know they'll never have it again...From now on, sadness, hurt, fears, even if they shared beautiful moments of joy and love during their fishing trips; but, for me, it was never the same. 

Yes Tammy, that is what makes this such a beautiful yet tragic story, these 2 people so in love and meant to be together, after Brokeback they were kept apart by the reality of a cruel world they had to live in.. :\'( 

[stephenZ]

I asked a question on another site. I was wondering if anyone feels that Jack or Ennis was stronger. I think that Jack was the stronger of the two. Just for his putting up with alot of Ennis's insecurities. Maybe if Ennis had been willing to give a little more. Maybe even try living with Jack for a short while, if it works then fine, if not then so be it.

The love that they had for each other is unbeleivable. Did anyone ever notice when Ennis is in the stream in the begining of the film. I think this is when Ennis knew he had some kind of feelings for Jack. He may not have known what it is, but he put enough into finding out. By the time of SNIT they both knew they were in it for the long haul.

Thanks

StephenZ

[lancecowboy]

I asked a question on another site. I was wondering if anyone feels that Jack or Ennis was stronger. I think that Jack was the stronger of the two. Just for his putting up with alot of Ennis's insecurities. Maybe if Ennis had been willing to give a little more. Maybe even try living with Jack for a short while, if it works then fine, if not then so be it.

The love that they had for each other is unbeleivable. Did anyone ever notice when Ennis is in the stream in the begining of the film. I think this is when Ennis knew he had some kind of feelings for Jack. He may not have known what it is, but he put enough into finding out. By the time of SNIT they both knew they were in it for the long haul.

Thanks

StephenZ

I think there are different answers to your question depending on how you define strength. Personally, I have always found Ennis to be the strong silent type, and to me, he is the epitome of masculine strength. However, I agree with you that as far as emotional maturity and strength is concern, Jack is the man and Ennis is the child.

Absolutely right on with the scene of Ennis in the stream, sunlight in his eyes, highlighting his hair...looking longingly at Jack, a dot riding across the vast mountain slope. I adore those scenes when Ennis looks lovingly, knowingly or not, at Jack. There was another one, just as they were starting off, and Jack, with his usual bravado, said to Ennis, "Let's get, unless you want to sit around tying knots all day." And the time when Jack was riding off after supper, and his mare was jumping a bit. Those loving longing looks...

Yup. Ennis sitting by the fire, thinking, weighing, considering, and finally, giving up to his feelings, with both hands on his knees, stood up, and hat in hand covering his excitement, walk hesitantly to Jack, who already had his shirt off, and just waiting patiently, yet knowing certainly that Ennis would come, if he waited long enough. 

Welcome, StephenZ.

[ksxks]

I feel like Ennis had the strength to suffer -- if that can be called strength.  And Jack had the strength to wait -- though again, it's debatable whether "putting up" with something can be called strength.  Patience, certainly. 

But I do think Jack's strength shows in his willingness to let Ennis be, to prod him only in such a way as to not spook him entirely.  His love certainly was strong...  And come to think of it, he also had the strength to suffer -- if that can be called strength.

kathy

[FlwrChild]

Fantastic posts as always everyone.

Kathy, that's a great way to put it. Although I might say rather that Ennis had the strength to suffer (because he believed that was his only option) and Jack had the strength to hope. For both of them. And conversely, Jack had the strength to suffer (never having what he truly wanted and believed they could have) and Ennis had the strength to hold on (in his own way,despite all of his beliefs).

[ksxks]

And beautiful post from you, Ms. FC, as always.

So, Steven, in answer to your father's question -- lots of answers!  What does he feel about it, by the way?

kathy

[atalley]

I guess I've always considered Jack to be the strongest of the two.

[tpe]

I feel like Ennis had the strength to suffer -- if that can be called strength.  And Jack had the strength to wait -- though again, it's debatable whether "putting up" with something can be called strength.  Patience, certainly. 

But I do think Jack's strength shows in his willingness to let Ennis be, to prod him only in such a way as to not spook him entirely.  His love certainly was strong...  And come to think of it, he also had the strength to suffer -- if that can be called strength.

kathy

Winderful distinction, kathy.  I think Fortitude and Patience would be another way of distinguishing the two of them according to very specific qualities of their shares passion.

But as you say, each one is not the sole property of each one.  As tou have said, Jack shows as much fortitude in his patience at a seemingly unmoving Ennis.  And I might add that Ennis also shows an inner patience, in keeping with his inner fortitude.    It is a pity that both of them did not really see how much they had in common, in spite of the obvious differences and distinctions in character and temperament.

[orangetruck]

I agree, great distinctive points and discussion, Kathy, Thomas. 

[tpe]

Thankls orangetruck.

It is fair to say that Ennis and jack saw each other imperfectly.  But their imperfect understanding of the other didn't stop them from realizing that the other made himself more complete/perfect.

[myprivatejack]

Thankls orangetruck.

It is fair to say that Ennis and jack saw each other imperfectly.  But their imperfect understanding of the other didn't stop them from realizing that the other made himself more complete/perfect.

Good points,Thomas,as always¡.   I do think that,even in their imperfect understanding of the other's needs,they realised perfectly that each one of them were the half that the other was lacked of.As you said once,they completed and complemented each other in spite-or due to-their differences and imperfections to the other.

[babytammy7]

Thankls orangetruck.

It is fair to say that Ennis and jack saw each other imperfectly.  But their imperfect understanding of the other didn't stop them from realizing that the other made himself more complete/perfect.

That was beautiful, Thomas. You know, I agree. 

[tpe]

Thanks MPJ amd Tammy. 

If, on one hand, they thought themselves perfect, there would have probably interpreted any difference between them as an imperfection on the part of the other.    And yet, if each of them thought of themselves as imperfect and the other perfect, then they would have been intimidated to reach out, and perhaps would not have allowed the rlationship to go forard -- an idol always being too remote to make a lover.  But because both of them saw tthemselves as imperfect and realized that one completed the other, we see a mutual and natural need spring forth between them.  This accounts for the naturalness of their attraction to each other.  There is no mistaking this to be other than a MUTUAL attraction.  Both saw that the other was within reach, and they needed to reach out.

[orangetruck]

Thanks MPJ amd Tammy. 

If, on one hand, they thought themselves perfect, there would have probably interpreted any difference between them as an imperfection on the part of the other.    And yet, if each of them thought of themselves as imperfect and the other perfect, then they would have been intimidated to reach out, and perhaps would not have allowed the rlationship to go forard -- an idol always being too remote to make a lover.  But because both of them saw tthemselves as imperfect and realized that one completed the other, we see a mutual and natural need spring forth between them.  This accounts for the naturalness of their attraction to each other.  There is no mistaking this to be other than a MUTUAL attraction.  Both saw that the other was within reach, and they needed to reach out.

Well.. let it not be mistaken, that was gorgeous, tpe 

[tpe]

Thanks orangetruck. 

We see more because we are all imperfect.  It's not always a bad thing -- especially in the case of Ennis and Jack.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks MPJ amd Tammy. 

If, on one hand, they thought themselves perfect, there would have probably interpreted any difference between them as an imperfection on the part of the other.    And yet, if each of them thought of themselves as imperfect and the other perfect, then they would have been intimidated to reach out, and perhaps would not have allowed the rlationship to go forard -- an idol always being too remote to make a lover.  But because both of them saw tthemselves as imperfect and realized that one completed the other, we see a mutual and natural need spring forth between them.  This accounts for the naturalness of their attraction to each other.  There is no mistaking this to be other than a MUTUAL attraction.  Both saw that the other was within reach, and they needed to reach out.

Thanks orangetruck. 

We see more because we are all imperfect.  It's not always a bad thing -- especially in the case of Ennis and Jack.

Beautifully explained,as always,Thomas.   Yes,I think both of them saw in the other's imperfection a way to arrive to his own perfection,because they knew each one of them could complete the other-each one of them had some qualities than lacked in the other or,at least,aren't so developed-.But,at the same time,they knew the other was,as you say,within reach,that he was somebody just like him,with his faults and his lacks.Isn't his the same reason why we feel them so close to us? Because they're imperfect and that makes them more humans,just like we're?.

[babytammy7]

If, on one hand, they thought themselves perfect, there would have probably interpreted any difference between them as an imperfection on the part of the other. And yet, if each of them thought of themselves as imperfect and the other perfect, then they would have been intimidated to reach out, and perhaps would not have allowed the rlationship to go forard -- an idol always being too remote to make a lover.  But because both of them saw tthemselves as imperfect and realized that one completed the other, we see a mutual and natural need spring forth between them.  This accounts for the naturalness of their attraction to each other.  There is no mistaking this to be other than a MUTUAL attraction.  Both saw that the other was within reach, and they needed to reach out.

Awesome post from start to end, Thomas. I love how you inspired you're getting this week (maybe you confessed your sins and now you're able to think clearly?  )

[tpe]

OT: thanks Tammy.  Since when was BBM not inspiring? 

[FlwrChild]

I'm way late in catching up here, but I love these most recent posts.

[tpe]

I'm way late in catching up here, but I love these most recent posts.

Thanks FlwrChild.