Author Topic: The first time  (Read 9946 times)

Offline ginger34

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The first time
« on: Feb 04, 2006, 01:11 AM »
I left the theater really disappointed.  My first thought was, "I did not like this film."  (Not to say that it wasn't good...  I just didn't like it.)  I saw it yesterday and have not been able to stop thinking about it, though.  I have been trying to figure out why I had a hard time buying it.  And I think I've figured it out (or at least part of it):  I was really disturbed by the first sexual encounter and I think this tainted the entire story for me.  Did it strike anyone else as disturbing?  I was really waiting for some tender moment between Ennis and Jack before they just started madly unbuckling their belts.  And then the sex wasn't even tender.  Not even a kiss until the next nite.  What would make them do that?  (Am I being naive?  That's possible...  I'm not very worldly.)  I mean, I could see it happening spontaneously I guess, but then for it to actually lead to love?  It just seemed to weird to me that the way it started was with an encounter that looked like it happened between two people who really just wanted the sex and had no feelings for each other.  (Yeah, I know Jack tried to make it tender, attempting to initate what looked like some spooning and maybe a kiss...) 

I guess I find it too convenient to the story that Jack could make a move on Ennis had Ennis would just jump him.  (Sorry, I don't buy that there was any "flirting" going on earlier in the movie.)

Hope I've gotten my point across...  I'd love to have someone intelligently blow this out of the water so that I can see this film for the masterpiece everyone is saying that it is.


Offline ethan

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Re: The first time
« Reply #1 on: Feb 04, 2006, 02:39 AM »
HERE is a similar topic which may help answer your question. 
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Offline jackie62

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Re: The first time
« Reply #2 on: Feb 05, 2006, 04:37 AM »
In the cinema , when i saw this scene, the place went completely silent at that point --- it was as if we got to a different level --- real raw instinct --- it felt almost too real.

I see it as one of the pivotal scenes. For me ,there is a build up --- sometimes subtle looks ---maybe watching each other work miles apart -- teasing -- but some scenes like Jack peeling the potatoes ,while Ennis washes himself naked , are so full of sexual tension its hard to miss.The book makes it even more obvious, when Ennis's connection to Jack makes him feel he could paw the white out of the moon.

Jack wants Ennis so badly ---  he knows this . Ennis has pushed down or refused to face what he needs.  When Jack takes the risk --all the need in Ennis "explodes" and it can't be half measures. Beautiful tenderness like in the second tent meeting couldn't be the first response of Ennis as he would have had to overcome so much of himself first. Once the connection is made --- no going back.

Offline rikcub

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Re: The first time
« Reply #3 on: Feb 05, 2006, 06:46 PM »
In the cinema , when i saw this scene, the place went completely silent at that point --- it was as if we got to a different level --- real raw instinct --- it felt almost too real.

I see it as one of the pivotal scenes. For me ,there is a build up --- sometimes subtle looks ---maybe watching each other work miles apart -- teasing -- but some scenes like Jack peeling the potatoes ,while Ennis washes himself naked , are so full of sexual tension its hard to miss.The book makes it even more obvious, when Ennis's connection to Jack makes him feel he could paw the white out of the moon.

Jack wants Ennis so badly ---  he knows this . Ennis has pushed down or refused to face what he needs.  When Jack takes the risk --all the need in Ennis "explodes" and it can't be half measures. Beautiful tenderness like in the second tent meeting couldn't be the first response of Ennis as he would have had to overcome so much of himself first. Once the connection is made --- no going back.

WOW...you absolutely nailed it Jackie62!  I have tried to put this scene into words but to no avail.....thank you!

Offline siredevienne38

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Re: The first time
« Reply #4 on: Mar 14, 2006, 03:54 PM »
I liked their first time very much; it was raw & intense (bareback mountain  ;D), and I guess it was Ennis' first sexual intercourse of his life, since he said before that he had never sinned. As to the early 60's, it means that you have sex without being married. So Ennis was a virgin *Edited by Moderator*
The same he did with Alma, I think (which she hated according to the novel)
Another reason why Ennis did not think that he was gay, he was sexually the active guy in their relationship! Jack behaved more like a woman, take the argument at the riverside after one week of reunion.....but only in his relationship with Ennis. He was very rude with his father-in-law f.e.
 
« Last Edit: Mar 23, 2006, 12:59 PM by frog123 »

Offline n061857

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Re: The first time
« Reply #5 on: Mar 23, 2006, 10:04 AM »
I was really disturbed by the first sexual encounter and I think this tainted the entire story for me.  Did it strike anyone else as disturbing?  I was really waiting for some tender moment between Ennis and Jack before they just started madly unbuckling their belts.  And then the sex wasn't even tender.  Not even a kiss until the next nite.  What would make them do that?  (Am I being naive?  That's possible...  I'm not very worldly.



Thank you, Ginger 34!   I had written this same thing I believe in a thread about reactions to the movie.  I was very disturbed by the first tent scene.  Too rough for my liking.  No intimacy on Ennis's part.  Someone in another thread likened it to a rape and said that that was what Ennis was apologizing for the next night.  The first time I saw the movie my initial response was,  What was that?  Where did that come from?   I could see that Jack's interactions with Ennis could be considered flirting,  but I did not see this at all the other way around.  At first I naively thought, maybe men are just rougher than woman.  But I realized that was stupid.  Women can like rough sex just as much as the next guy.  I guess as has been said this is the only way Ennis could have allowed himself to do this, without intimacy.

I sometimes wish this scene was a litle softer, because then I think the movie would have an even greater audience.  I just can't see my parents continuing to sit in the theater through that scene.

I know this is not a popular view, but this is how I feel.  I'm happy to hear someone else concurs.    Thanks!                 

Offline siredevienne38

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Re: The first time
« Reply #6 on: Mar 23, 2006, 11:57 AM »
Girlz, here in good old europe people are not confused by rough sexual encounters (no stupid bigots here!). Remember, Jack opened his trousers and was ready for Ennis , he was not a weak victim... he needed it badly, I guess, and he took it like a man - so it is ok even not politically correct in your eyes...


*Post Edited By Moderator*
« Last Edit: Mar 23, 2006, 12:43 PM by frog123 »

Offline bram

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Re: The first time
« Reply #7 on: Mar 23, 2006, 12:09 PM »
I wouldn't say I was disturbed by it. I was a little put off, but that's just because I am easily embarrassed and there were people on both sides of me. I loved it the first time I saw it, but I was happy for the dark, cause I'm sure I was pretty red for awhile there.
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Offline jackie62

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Re: The first time
« Reply #8 on: Mar 23, 2006, 03:48 PM »
the thing that struck me most was how honest the scene was.

in so many movies all sex scenes are violins and warm music --- we're seduced in a slightly artificial way .

this scene was raw --- and i think in keeping with the stuation. i didn't find it like an unwanted or too forceful act by one person on another.

i think jack was aroused,which is why the hand was placed were it was , and while things moved fast ,i had no sense he was unhappy.

but i really do see where others are coming from.

Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: The first time
« Reply #9 on: Mar 23, 2006, 05:54 PM »
I initially found this scene unsettling at first.  It was rough, quick, and without violins. Let's remember...both men were drunk.  How often does that result in a sexual encounter where manners and tenderness is a forethought? 

I wouldn't compare it rape because you don't rape the willing.  Jack was perfectly capable of freeing himself from that situation if he so desired.  It may have been a rough night for Jack, but his sleeping face was flashing "afterglow" the next morning.

Overall, I'd say this scene was rough to watch, but not shocking.
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Offline Italian_Dude

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Re: The first time
« Reply #10 on: Mar 23, 2006, 06:16 PM »
The first time I saw the scene I too was like "where did that come from" and it was shocking and I didnt understand what it meant completely after my first viewing. Now I think it was just how they expressed their feelings towards each other that first night.. I mean the gay thing isnt a popular or accepted thing back then.. and I saw "flirting" like crazy in my eyes, very subtle things and the way they would look at each other. Also, you can tell they are thinking about each other in some way before that scene.. when Jack looks down from the mountain at the fire from Ennis' tent and when Ennis looks up the mountain at Jack riding up. My view is that it was kind of like "love at first sight," or attraction at least. The way they look at each other and every little thing they do makes it seem that they like each other.. a little more than completely straight men would. All of these factors I think are what built up to the first night, and they were drunk. Ennis slept outside and it was cold so he came in the tent. Jack made the first move and Ennis was surprised and didnt expect it, but he was afraid too. He had never done anything like this before and he knows that its wrong (according to his family's beliefs ie. his father). So he wasnt going to start kissing him at that point, there was no foreplay because it was just Ennis drunk and wanting to be with Jack and allowing himself to finally be overcome with lust and passion, so he just flips him over. In a moment of passion there isnt always kissing.. it can go straight to the sex part, i've seen it between a man and woman. I think it was because of a mixture of lust, confusion and drunkeness in Ennis. I dont think he did it in a harmful or bad way, but he really was attracted to him but at that point was so confused that he felt he couldnt express how he really felt and be "love dovey" so he just fliped him. The next day is when Ennis really realizes he has strong feelings for Jack and accepts them. He sort of indirectly apologizes and accepts his feelings are real by re-entering the tent that night, then the kissing and tenderness is seen that was missing from the previous night. And there love continues to blossom..

That is my personal view of that scene.. I understand how it could be shocking and puzzling because after the first time i saw it i was confused as well, but now I think its an important scene and shows a lot about their passion for each other and about who ennis is and subtly hints at his fears of being gay and falling in love with another man.
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Offline n061857

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Re: The first time
« Reply #11 on: Mar 23, 2006, 06:19 PM »
Thanks,  if not in total agreement,  I'm glad you guys can at least understand where I/we are coming from.  I myself did not equate this to rape, but I did wonder if it could have been hurtful to Jack.

I quess, you're right by the morning after glow on Jack's face, I would say not.
« Last Edit: Mar 23, 2006, 07:17 PM by n061857 »

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: The first time
« Reply #12 on: Mar 23, 2006, 07:16 PM »
Well I did not find it shocking nor puzzling...I just saw it as a passionate first time.

My view as a woman (and I can only talk about heterosexual sex) is that rough/in the spur of the moment sex happens.

That's exactly how I saw it for Ennis and Jack...it's quick, it's passionate...satisfying and that's it. When I read the short story..I did worry about Jack for a second...then I saw the movie...and realised that the only thing Jack was upset about, was seeing Ennis run away.
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Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: The first time
« Reply #13 on: Mar 23, 2006, 07:59 PM »
Well I did not find it shocking nor puzzling...I just saw it as a passionate first time.

My view as a woman (and I can only talk about heterosexual sex) is that rough/in the spur of the moment sex happens.

That's exactly how I saw it for Ennis and Jack...it's quick, it's passionate...satisfying and that's it. When I read the short story..I did worry about Jack for a second...then I saw the movie...and realised that the only thing Jack was upset about, was seeing Ennis run away.

And Ennis did run.  I felt really sorry for Jack. He had a look that expressed a real uncertainty of how things were going to be between the two.
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Offline *Froggy*

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Re: The first time
« Reply #14 on: Mar 23, 2006, 08:23 PM »
He had a look that expressed a real uncertainty of how things were going to be between the two.

almost heartbreaking!
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Offline City Slickin' Cowboy

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Re: The first time
« Reply #15 on: Mar 23, 2006, 08:55 PM »
He had a look that expressed a real uncertainty of how things were going to be between the two.

almost heartbreaking!

Frankly, if I were Jack I'm not sure I would have visited Ennis on that hill.  Not knowing how he would feel about seeing me would have been a bit much.  I would have waited at the camp biting my nails. :-\
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Offline jackie62

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Re: The first time
« Reply #16 on: Mar 24, 2006, 07:26 AM »
He had a look that expressed a real uncertainty of how things were going to be between the two.

almost heartbreaking!

Frankly, if I were Jack I'm not sure I would have visited Ennis on that hill.  Not knowing how he would feel about seeing me would have been a bit much.  I would have waited at the camp biting my nails. :-\



strangely, i'd thought jack had gone of by himself up the hill and ennis came to find him.  i thought he would be very unsure as to what reception ennis would give him so he went off side to think.   i also wondered if he wanted to see if ennis would come looking for him.


some friends of mine were convinced as ennis walked overto jack , he was going to shoot him!!!

Offline n061857

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Re: The first time
« Reply #17 on: Mar 24, 2006, 07:32 AM »
That's funny.  I had the same thought.  Did you notice the next morning Ennis is loading up the shotgun as Jack approaches to say, "See you at dinner then."  I thought, "Oh no, Jack, stay away!"   Ha!