Topic: I'm not you Ennis

[babytammy7]

Hello dear Brokies!!!

Well, here I go again!!If you've talked about this before, please forgive me   

I've been thinking about Jack, as always of course, and I wonder which is the meaning of this Jack`s statement: I´m not you...

I have my own ideas about that, but I would like to know yours 'cause probably I'm wrong.

So, I'm not you:Ennis, I need more sex, you know, more than just 2 f.....I'm more passionate than you and still young, so I want you so bad!!!

I'm not you: En, I need a life together and, above all,  I need your love the whole time, every week, every day, every hour.I can't stand the loneliness no more. I'm not you, I need company, a family; not a family with a wife and children, but a family with you, you and me.

I'm not you: En, you don't know anything about your real sexuality, well, I mean, you don't accept it and you don't want to accept it. But I'm different; I know who I am, I know well what I want, I like boys, yeah, really, and I'm not ashamed of it. I said to you: I'm not a queer, but I was so young and I didn't want to lose you, so what about if I tell you I'm gay? What? I'm not afraid of people, I'm not afraid of killers, I'm not afraid of Earl and Rich's ghost; are you going to punch me? Come on, I'm not afraid of you!!!

I'm not you: En, you are so stoic, so conformist, so realistic.......but, at the same time, you are so sad, so bitter. I was a dreamer, I was a boy full of hope, I was happy, I used to smile all the whole time, and I really would like to be that Jack again; I need it En; I'm not you, I need dreams, crazy things, promises to carry on; I need words, I need to know that you love me.

I'm not you: En, you look so strong; nothing seems to be important for you, nothing seems to be hurting you (Ok, Jack didn't know how Ennis actually felt), but I'm not so strong; I'm more sensitive than you, I have deep feelings, I can't go on.... I'm devastated...

What do you think about friends? What was he trying to say?

Again, sorry for my english, and thank you so much for your answers!!! 

[tpe]

For me. "I'm not you" means that Jack couldn't keep things in, the way Ennis did.  For me, it is Jack's final rejection of the spirit behind "If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it."

There are some things that you just can't keep inside.  Ironically, even Ennis admitted as much at the close of the confrontation scene...

[welshwitch]

I'm sure Jack is saying what he must have known for a long time; that he doesn't share Ennis's fears, inhibitions, ability to do without, stoicism, whatever, but he's also surely referring to his higher sex drive. While Ennis can put up with meeting him only a few times a year and lead a celnbate life the rest of the time, Jack can't and won't. It's exactly like the sequence where Ennis says they'll have to live on beans when they're lost their food and says he won't. Jack has wider horizons than Ennis, in physical space and otherwise, and he's never going to settle for beans.

  Is " not worth a bean" an American expression? In Eng. Li.t it goes back at least to Chaucer and maybe before; it means " not worth anything".

[keren_b]

I'm sure Jack is saying what he must have known for a long time; that he doesn't share Ennis's fears, inhibitions, ability to do without, stoicism, whatever, but he's also surely referring to his higher sex drive. While Ennis can put up with meeting him only a few times a year and lead a celnbate life the rest of the time, Jack can't and won't. It's exactly like the sequence where Ennis says they'll have to live on beans when they're lost their food and says he won't. Jack has wider horizons than Ennis, in physical space and otherwise, and he's never going to settle for beans.

Very well said, and I think it means exactly that.

[proulxfan]

ww,

 

In American English, the expression is often worded as "not worth of hill of beans"  or " it ain't worth beans", but I think they come from the same origin.

[lamusica]

I agree that Jack has a higher sex drive.  He actually NEEDS sex more often that Ennis, but I think he is referring also to just a basic need to be WITH someone more often.  I think it's his declaration that he needs Ennis so much, but, since Ennis will not commit to being with Jack more often or live with him, he, Jack, has to find this human contact somewhere else -- even in back sheds in Mexico.  Sure, it's sex, but it's also another human being.  Ennis "wrings it out" as he says in the ss; Jack needs the human contact that even a whore can provide.

[aintfoolin]

I agree that Jack has a higher sex drive.  He actually NEEDS sex more often that Ennis, but I think he is referring also to just a basic need to be WITH someone more often.  I think it's his declaration that he needs Ennis so much, but, since Ennis will not commit to being with Jack more often or live with him, he, Jack, has to find this human contact somewhere else -- even in back sheds in Mexico.  Sure, it's sex, but it's also another human being.  Ennis "wrings it out" as he says in the ss; Jack needs the human contact that even a whore can provide.

 Jack did have a high sex drive and I agree he is comparing a warm body vs his hand as Ennis does, but it fits in with the rest of Ennis and Jack's basic personalities. Jack needs human touch, Ennis just needs Jack or thoughts of Jack as he "wrings it out".  Jack had a wife, but she can't give him what he "hardly ever gets", Randall? probably comes close but no cigar, and LaShawn?.. well I won't even go there , but it was Ennis who Jack had the true passion for, he loved him and sex with the one you love is always more free and better. I guess Ennis was the perfect fit in this regard. so not only does Jack need more sex, he needs/wants it in a certain manner, high altitude, low altitude, whatever. Jack was not gonna be satisfied with just "wringing it out" , but I'm sure due to these long periods in between, when they did do it, I bet they gave each other more than they can handle. A sweet thought.

[tpe]

I agree that Jack has a higher sex drive.  He actually NEEDS sex more often that Ennis, but I think he is referring also to just a basic need to be WITH someone more often.  I think it's his declaration that he needs Ennis so much, but, since Ennis will not commit to being with Jack more often or live with him, he, Jack, has to find this human contact somewhere else -- even in back sheds in Mexico.  Sure, it's sex, but it's also another human being.  Ennis "wrings it out" as he says in the ss; Jack needs the human contact that even a whore can provide.

I think the sex was part of this need to be with someone.  It was at the center of Jack's dream, after all...

[manhattangirl]

For me, 

Jack accused Ennis of not wanting a life with him, that Ennis was willing to accept the status quo.  Jack believed that the couple of  high attitude f@$ks was just fine with Ennis. I think Jack was was saying,  "I'm not you".  This arrangement is not OK with me. 

Jack was sadly under the misunderstanding, that this is what  Ennis wanted, but on a deeper level, this was not OK with Ennis, this was Ennis's burden.  How could Jack know that how Ennis lived his life was all done to keep Jack in his life. 

IMO.

[myprivatejack]

For me,definitively this "I´m not you,Ennis" includes a whole lot of circumstances,feelings,needs and longings that are seen in different way for both of them,or at least,it seems not to have the same level in each one of them.From,obviously,"My libido is not so in control as yours,so I can´t make it with a couple of ...",to "Nor I have all my life´s aspects so in control as you  seem to have yours"; passing by "I just can´t have enough with seeing you a few times a year,I need your presence more often", or by "I need really living with you and I´m willing to let everything behind to get it, and you seem to need only what we get during all these years".
Not,really,Jack was not Ennis;he was fighting all his short life to get his dreams, while Ennis was suffering a lot-maybe more than Jack-because he must hide his deepest and most loving feelings and longings to build a strong man´s shield-before everybody,society,Jack and also himself-.Perhaps he needed and whished all this the same or even more than his lover,but he needed also,he MUST, not to show it.Such a pity. :\'(

[welshwitch]

It also seems to me the underlying significance of this is that Jack is saying that he's not satisfied with such limited horizons as Ennis is - he hasn't stayed in the same place, gone on doing the same job - in the ss his role in LD's business develops over time - gone on thinking in the same way. He has wantred for a long time to change things - now it's becoming clear to him thathe can;t change things with Ennis - Ennis is the obstacle to his achieving his dreams.

[manhattangirl]

It also seems to me the underlying significance of this is that Jack is saying that he's not satisfied with such limited horizons as Ennis is - he hasn't stayed in the same place, gone on doing the same job - in the ss his role in LD's business develops over time - gone on thinking in the same way. He has wantred for a long time to change things - now it's becoming clear to him thathe can;t change things with Ennis - Ennis is the obstacle to his achieving his dreams.

I can relate to ww pov.  My own pov:  When Jack tells Ennis "I'm not you"  Was it really all about sex, or how often they get to have sex?  I personally doubt this.  It about a dream deferred.   Jack's dream.  This reminds of  the first line in one my favorite poems:

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up like raisin in the sun?

Langston Hughes

This is almost a warning that a desire/a dream delayed is a a desire/a dream denied. 

When Jack wishes he could quit Ennis,  Ennis for that moment seems like an obstacles achieving his dream, but a life with Ennis was also the object of Jack's dream.  This was Jack's dilemma.  IMO.

[babytammy7]

I can relate to ww pov.  My own pov:  When Jack tells Ennis "I'm not you"  Was it really all about sex, or how often they get to have sex?  I personally doubt this.  It about a dream deferred.   Jack's dream.   This reminds of  the first line in one my favorite poems:

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up like raisin in the sun?

Langston Hughes

This is almost a warning that a desire/a dream delayed is a a desire/a dream denied. 

When Jack wishes he could quit Ennis,  Ennis for that moment seems like an obstacles achieving his dream, but a life with Ennis was also the object of Jack's dream.  This was Jack's dilemma.  IMO.

Oh very well said!!!! I agree with you. I think in Jack's statement there is nothing to do with sex, and as I said before that I'm not you means for me:I'm not you: En, I need a life together and, above all, I need your love the whole time, every week, every day, every hour. I can't stand the loneliness no more. I'm not you, I need company, a family; not a family with a wife and children, but a family with you, you and me. I need to believe in dreams andI need promises to carry on; I need words, I need to know that you love me.

[myprivatejack]

For me,definitively this "I´m not you,Ennis" includes a whole lot of circumstances,feelings,needs and longings that are seen in different way for both of them,or at least,it seems not to have the same level in each one of them.From,obviously,"My libido is not so in control as yours,so I can´t make it with a couple of ...",to "Nor I have all my life´s aspects so in control as you  seem to have yours"; passing by "I just can´t have enough with seeing you a few times a year,I need your presence more often", or by "I need really living with you and I´m willing to let everything behind to get it, and you seem to need only what we get during all these years".
Not,really,Jack was not Ennis;he was fighting all his short life to get his dreams, while Ennis was suffering a lot-maybe more than Jack-because he must hide his deepest and most loving feelings and longings to build a strong man´s shield-before everybody,society,Jack and also himself-.Perhaps he needed and whished all this the same or even more than his lover,but he needed also,he MUST, not to show it.Such a pity. :\'(

Wel,it´s the second time I´ve quoted myself;I don´t know if this is something pathological... In it I said that Jack´s statement DOES have something to do with sex,but not only with it,not only with company,not only with life expectations,not only even with love;it´s the confirmation before Ennis and even himself that this "I m not you,Ennis" goes far beyond all these circumstances and feelings, and at the same time is a blend of all these and much more still:It´s his own life´s project, all his past,present and future life that he saw in this moment as completely different from Ennis´s.Hence his frustration,of course,although,I repite,Ennis possibly had this same life´s project,much more still than Jack,but he must have a double face,a kind of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hide before his true feelings and the image he must give to society- and ,as I said also,often to Jack and most of the time to himself...-Poor Ennis¡I don´t know if all this makes sense;my English is too bad as to do psychological speeches...

[tpe]

For me, 

Jack accused Ennis of not wanting a life with him, that Ennis was willing to accept the status quo.  Jack believed that the couple of  high attitude f@$ks was just fine with Ennis. I think Jack was was saying,  "I'm not you".  This arrangement is not OK with me. 

Jack was sadly under the misunderstanding, that this is what  Ennis wanted, but on a deeper level, this was not OK with Ennis, this was Ennis's burden.  How could Jack know that how Ennis lived his life was all done to keep Jack in his life. 

IMO.

I do think that deep-down, this is what Jack was saying.  He was saying that he couldn't go on living this way, thinking that it was all fine for the stoic Ennis.

[tpe]

It also seems to me the underlying significance of this is that Jack is saying that he's not satisfied with such limited horizons as Ennis is - he hasn't stayed in the same place, gone on doing the same job - in the ss his role in LD's business develops over time - gone on thinking in the same way. He has wantred for a long time to change things - now it's becoming clear to him thathe can;t change things with Ennis - Ennis is the obstacle to his achieving his dreams.

I think this was part of what I said in my last post, also.  That Ennis, by simply being "contented" with the status quo, didn't really relate to Jack's growing dissatisfaction.

It is interesting to see that this scene revealed a much more vulnerable Ennis than we were led to believe.  It was simply a matter of appearances -- that Ennis was contented with the way things were...

[tpe]

I can relate to ww pov.  My own pov:  When Jack tells Ennis "I'm not you"  Was it really all about sex, or how often they get to have sex?  I personally doubt this.  It about a dream deferred.   Jack's dream.  This reminds of  the first line in one my favorite poems:

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up like raisin in the sun?

Langston Hughes

This is almost a warning that a desire/a dream delayed is a a desire/a dream denied. 

When Jack wishes he could quit Ennis,  Ennis for that moment seems like an obstacles achieving his dream, but a life with Ennis was also the object of Jack's dream.  This was Jack's dilemma.  IMO.

Yes, I had posted in some other thread this Langston Hughes's poem and how closely it mirrored the situation in BBM.  It is also interesting to note that the Poet also lived though a life that was not open and seemingly limited or limiting.  It reflects the situation of Jack in this very scene.

[tpe]

Wel,it´s the second time I´ve quoted myself;I don´t know if this is something pathological... In it I said that Jack´s statement DOES have something to do with sex,but not only with it,not only with company,not only with life expectations,not only even with love;it´s the confirmation before Ennis and even himself that this "I m not you,Ennis" goes far beyond all these circumstances and feelings, and at the same time is a blend of all these and much more still:It´s his own life´s project, all his past,present and future life that he saw in this moment as completely different from Ennis´s.Hence his frustration,of course,although,I repite,Ennis possibly had this same life´s project,much more still than Jack,but he must have a double face,a kind of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hide before his true feelings and the image he must give to society- and ,as I said also,often to Jack and most of the time to himself...-Poor Ennis¡I don´t know if all this makes sense;my English is too bad as to do psychological speeches...

I do think that the sex was a part of the picture.  It was a way of saying to Ennis that they needed greater intimacy -- which a life together would have given both of them.

[myprivatejack]

I do think that the sex was a part of the picture.  It was a way of saying to Ennis that they needed greater intimacy -- which a life together would have given both of them.

Of course,sex was a part of the complaining that was in Jack´s statement,being what he asked for a greater intimacy that only a sharing life would have carried.Sex would be more satisfactory in same way for both of them,because all the aspects of their life would be satisfactory then.As I said,what Jack asked was a project of life far beyond a momentary sexual or phisycal satisfaction, even far beyond the satisfaction to be with the one you love...He wanted a total communion in body,soul and mind with his Ennis that only a life in common could bring him.IMO.

[trekfan]

Jack said he couldn't survive on a few high altitude  f*cks a year.    He wanted sex and he wanted a life with someone.   He wanted a life with Ennis but "You didn't want it Ennis, so all we got now is BBM!"

[welshwitch]

The point is that to be sexually involved you have to be together - in some ways sex ( not just one-night stands!) is not just a reality, it's also the proof of something more absrtract, one's commitment to and love of someone else, wanting to spend all the time one can with them. If someone doesn't want to be in the same geographical location,or close, then sex is impossible without the sort of travelling Jack had to do. And in turn that always makes the traveller feel he's the one making the major effort, the supplicant almost, and the other stays where he is and has less to do other than accept what's done in an attempt to bridge the distance.

[manhattangirl]

The point is that to be sexually involved you have to be together - in some ways sex ( not just one-night stands!) is not just a reality, it's also the proof of something more absrtract, one's commitment to and love of someone else, wanting to spend all the time one can with them. If someone doesn't want to be in the same geographical location,or close, then sex is impossible without the sort of travelling Jack had to do. And in turn that always makes the traveller feel he's the one making the major effort, the supplicant almost, and the other stays where he is and has less to do other than accept what's done in an attempt to bridge the distance.

Ennis sits by the window and waits.   

[tpe]

Of course,sex was a part of the complaining that was in Jack´s statement,being what he asked for a greater intimacy that only a sharing life would have carried.Sex would be more satisfactory in same way for both of them,because all the aspects of their life would be satisfactory then.As I said,what Jack asked was a project of life far beyond a momentary sexual or phisycal satisfaction, even far beyond the satisfaction to be with the one you love...He wanted a total communion in body,soul and mind with his Ennis that only a life in common could bring him.IMO.

To echo myself in one of the previous posts, we shouldn't confuse the symptom with the problem.  The lack of sex was a symptom of the real problem of wanting greater intimacy.

[tpe]

"You didn't want it Ennis, so all we got now is BBM!"

This of course is not completely fair to Ennis.  Ennis wanted it.  It's just that he though he wasn't privy to it.

[tpe]

The point is that to be sexually involved you have to be together - in some ways sex ( not just one-night stands!) is not just a reality, it's also the proof of something more absrtract, one's commitment to and love of someone else, wanting to spend all the time one can with them. If someone doesn't want to be in the same geographical location,or close, then sex is impossible without the sort of travelling Jack had to do. And in turn that always makes the traveller feel he's the one making the major effort, the supplicant almost, and the other stays where he is and has less to do other than accept what's done in an attempt to bridge the distance.

This is true.  The passivity could be interpreted by some as disinterest.  I think Jack was willing to look the other way on this because he understood Ennis better than most.  Perhaps "I'm not you" echoes some of these differences also, in the sense that Jack will go the distance in order to make things work.

[manhattangirl]

This is true.  The passivity could be interpreted by some as disinterest.  I think Jack was willing to look the other way on this because he understood Ennis better than most.  Perhaps "I'm not you" echoes some of these differences also, in the sense that Jack will go the distance in order to make things work.

My only problem how long does Jack have to go.  It's like moving the goal post one yard, than another.  (my football analogy may suck, but you get the idea),  Jack was already questioning time, it wasn't enough.  He was getting weary. Ennis was a hard case, and Jack was the only one who could stand it. 

[tpe]

My only problem how long does Jack have to go.  It's like moving the goal post one yard, than another.  (my football analogy may suck, but you get the idea),  Jack was already questioning time, it wasn't enough.  He was getting weary. Ennis was a hard case, and Jack was the only one who could stand it. 

The fact that he lasted in this state of waiting for nearly 20 years is a testament to his fortitude.  "i'm not you" seemed to havebeen a last (?) desperate cry from the heart.  It is ironic that Ennis probably felt the same way for years, but just didn't try to show it.  Irony of ironies.

[manhattangirl]

The fact that he lasted in this state of waiting for nearly 20 years is a testament to his fortitude.  "i'm not you" seemed to havebeen a last (?) desperate cry from the heart.  It is ironic that Ennis probably felt the same way for years, but just didn't try to show it.  Irony of ironies.

tpe,

This "state of waiting", do you really think Ennis was feeling the same way?  After all it was he who wanted to push the date back for the next meeting, which started this thing.  It was Ennis who held this little piece of information back from Jack, for a week, and after Jack made his confession of how much he needed him.   The armour came down, Jack was in a vunderable state, and now this happens.  Jack was push away by so many in his life, and the one person, Ennis, was pushing him away too, how much of this could Jack take, why did Ennis feel he could do this to him?

Ennis knew what kind of reaction Jack would have, Ennis was almost nonchalant about the whole thing, but was caught unaware by Jack bitter response.   When Ennis walked up to him, Jack was waiting for Ennis to punch him again if not worse.

Ennis wasn't prepared to know how Jack really felt.  He didn't know or wanted to know that Jack went else where for sex, that Jack laid out for him what they could have had, and what Ennis didn't want, that Jack wished he could just quit him.   

Ennis broke and Jack comforted him.  Ennis said there was no reins on this one, but did he have and lost the reins he held on Jack?  Jack was ready to cut him loose and Ennis couldn't take the idea.

A lot been said about Ennis finding the shirts, and that Jack really did love him, but the way Jack was left at the final confrontation, did he know that Ennis really did love him too?  Or left thinking that what they had was bringing Ennis nothing but grief?    You wonder what was on Jack's mind when Ennis drove away, you almost understand why he crave again the dozy embrace.

[tpe]

tpe,

This "state of waiting", do you really think Ennis was feeling the same way?  After all it was he who wanted to push the date back for the next meeting, which started this thing.  It was Ennis who held this little piece of information back from Jack, for a week, and after Jack made his confession of how much he needed him.   The armour came down, Jack was in a vunderable state, and now this happens.  Jack was push away by so many in his life, and the one person, Ennis, was pushing him away too, how much of this could Jack take, why did Ennis feel he could do this to him?

Ennis knew what kind of reaction Jack would have, Ennis was almost nonchalant about the whole thing, but was caught unaware by Jack bitter response.   When Ennis walked up to him, Jack was waiting for Ennis to punch him again if not worse.

Ennis wasn't prepared to know how Jack really felt.  He didn't know or wanted to know that Jack went else where for sex, that Jack laid out for him what they could have had, and what Ennis didn't want, that Jack wished he could just quit him.   

Ennis broke and Jack comforted him.  Ennis said there was no reins on this one, but did he have and lost the reins he held on Jack?  Jack was ready to cut him loose and Ennis couldn't take the idea.

A lot been said about Ennis finding the shirts, and that Jack really did love him, but the way Jack was left at the final confrontation, did he know that Ennis really did love him too?  Or left thinking that what they had was bringing Ennis nothing but grief?    You wonder what was on Jack's mind when Ennis drove away, you almost understand why he crave again the dozy embrace.

Hello manhattangirl.  I think a part of Ennis always shared a dream of one day living with Jack, but another part of him wouldn't allow it.  I do think this was part of his being conflicted.  "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" seemed to indicate that he was so tired of fighting against himself. 

I think when Ennis broke down, jack probably realized the truth -- that Ennis was also dealing with the pain of not being together too often.  I think I mentioned in another post somewhere that Ennis not wanting to meet in August suggested two possibilities: (1) that work really constrained him to do this, and (2), a part of him was trying to pull away.  I think even if we take (2) to be true, it doesn't mean that it didn't hurt Ennis also -- he's so complicated, that something like this is indeed possible.

I suspect that Jack never really knew how much Ennis loved him too.  He probably knew that he (Jack) loved Ennis -- that was enough for him, I guess.

 

[manhattangirl]

Hello manhattangirl.  I think a part of Ennis always shared a dream of one day living with Jack, but another part of him wouldn't allow it.  I do think this was part of his being conflicted.  "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" seemed to indicate that he was so tired of fighting against himself. 

I think when Ennis broke down, jack probably realized the truth -- that Ennis was also dealing with the pain of not being together too often.  I think I mentioned in another post somewhere that Ennis not wanting to meet in August suggested two possibilities: (1) that work really constrained him to do this, and (2), a part of him was trying to pull away.  I think even if we take (2) to be true, it doesn't mean that it didn't hurt Ennis also -- he's so complicated, that something like this is indeed possible.

I suspect that Jack never really knew how much Ennis loved him too.  He probably knew that he (Jack) loved Ennis -- that was enough for him, I guess.

 

I personally believed Ennis would never live with Jack. This is someone with deep abandonment issues, keeping Jack at a distance where he could handle him emotionally was all Ennis could cope with. 

Remember how his reaction when they parted that first summer.  So devastating, his pain so deep, that it was a physical reaction losing someone he'd grown emotionally, mentally, and sexually attach to.

How would've been if they did live together?  Would Ennis smother Jack with his fears, would Jack feel the pressure of constant reassurances that he wasn't going anywhere?   

We got a hint of the bickering that goes on between them, when they argued when Jack suggested Ennis moved to Texas.   Ennis could be pretty nasty and hurtful towards Jack, but protective of him at other times.  We also have the issues of Jack's little trips to Mexico, and Ennis's reaction to them, how much would the knowledge that Jack could do this play into Ennis's mind. 

I'm not looking at Ennis being gay, straight or whatever, but a man with problems that started in childhood, carried with him to adulthood, and how it shape and moulded him as a lover, a companion to another human being for life.  Would Jack take the time and understand this of man he loved so much. 

"I not you, Ennis", that said a lot.   Could Jack and Ennis really survive as a couple living together?