Topic: I'm not you Ennis

[myprivatejack]

Another phrase that remarks the differences between the both of them-this "I'm not you,Ennis..."-cames in the beginning of the conversation that leads to the confrontation scene: when he knows that they didn't see each other in more months that he thought,Jack is complaining about how easily Ennis went to their meetings in the beginning.But then,he says that Ennis "was so elusive as the Pope",as a way of illustrating that his lover was making greater and greater the time between these meetings.
Jack seems to be tired of having only the mountain as a "shelter" of their love-"all we've got is Brokeback Mountain;everything is builded on that..."-;but,at the same time,he has made of this place his reason of living,the place where he was and he is happy because it's this shelter for them,it's still their "paradise"...Ennis,however,even seeming more attached to the mountain than Jack in the end-or at least,is that he doesn't matter where they met...-,makes this reunions every time less frequent.Do you think it's only for economical reasons-the pension he must pay for his daughters obliged to accept any job,even if this didn't allow him to see Jack so frequently?Or it reflects some tiredness,if not of Jack himself,of the situation?Or an excuse more to avoid a real commitment,even passing over his need of Jack?.

[tpe]

Another phrase that remarks the differences between the both of them-this "I'm not you,Ennis..."-cames in the beginning of the conversation that leads to the confrontation scene: when he knows that they didn't see each other in more months that he thought,Jack is complaining about how easily Ennis went to their meetings in the beginning.But then,he says that Ennis "was so elusive as the Pope",as a way of illustrating that his lover was making greater and greater the time between these meetings.
Jack seems to be tired of having only the mountain as a "shelter" of their love-"all we've got is Brokeback Mountain;everything is builded on that..."-;but,at the same time,he has made of this place his reason of living,the place where he was and he is happy because it's this shelter for them,it's still their "paradise"...Ennis,however,even seeming more attached to the mountain than Jack in the end-or at least,is that he doesn't matter where they met...-,makes this reunions every time less frequent.Do you think it's only for economical reasons-the pension he must pay for his daughters obliged to accept any job,even if this didn't allow him to see Jack so frequently?Or it reflects some tiredness,if not of Jack himself,of the situation?Or an excuse more to avoid a real commitment,even passing over his need of Jack?.

I think I mentioned in another thread long ago that I suspect that a part of Ennis also wanted some distance -- it is that same part of him that is probably dominated by fear.  I can't be sure of this, but it is just my feeling.

Well, Jack was also saying that he wasn't Ennis in the sense that he couldn't deprive himself of their being together for long stretches.  There is an urgency in Jack's love that contrasts strongly with Ennis's hesitations.

[myprivatejack]

I think I mentioned in another thread long ago that I suspect that a part of Ennis also wanted some distance -- it is that same part of him that is probably dominated by fear.  I can't be sure of this, but it is just my feeling.

Well, Jack was also saying that he wasn't Ennis in the sense that he couldn't deprive himself of their being together for long stretches.  There is an urgency in Jack's love that contrasts strongly with Ennis's hesitations.

Yes,it's the same than declare that he couldn't hide his feelings-with all that this means-for more time...only one of the many differences they had.
But it seems that,and mostly for what you say, there were two Ennis-to say it in same way-; one who was longing for being with his lover during more time,who even wished to share his live with him and who was suffering for the situation inside him.And other who was dominated for his own fears,hesitations and contradictions,at the point of building an each time greater edifice of separation between them with the "bricks" of all kind of excuses-even if they had a basis,like this of his daughter's pension...-.And more than it would be advisable,this second won the game to the first,is that right?.
Difficult to understand,although one puts in Ennis shoes,because loving someone is never have enough of him/ her; and more still when circumstances are the best and greater separation...A very complex personality,this Ennis...

[tpe]

Yes,it's the same than declare that he couldn't hide his feelings-with all that this means-for more time...only one of the many differences they had.
But it seems that,and mostly for what you say, there were two Ennis-to say it in same way-; one who was longing for being with his lover during more time,who even wished to share his live with him and who was suffering for the situation inside him.And other who was dominated for his own fears,hesitations and contradictions,at the point of building an each time greater edifice of separation between them with the "bricks" of all kind of excuses-even if they had a basis,like this of his daughter's pension...-.And more than it would be advisable,this second won the game to the first,is that right?.
Difficult to understand,although one puts in Ennis shoes,because loving someone is never have enough of him/ her; and more still when circumstances are the best and greater separation...A very complex personality,this Ennis...

In truth, this may yet be another meaning for "I'm not you": that Jack was not a house divided, as he felt Ennis was.

[aintfoolin]

I'm not sure how much Ennis is aware of these things, his feelings for Jack. I think that more than he is pretending, he's repressing. I agree with you that he loves Jack the same way Jack loves him, but I don't know if he admits that to himself or allows himself to think about it. Does he know that he and Jack are meant to be together? That I'm not sure of, since Ennis can't accept the idea of two men living together. Heath described Ennis as "a homophobic man in love with another man" and being that, he hates the way he loves. He can't accept his feelings, he surely can't consider the idea that he might be gay. He represses his feelings so deeply because admitting them would be too frightening for him. So yes, his feelings for Jack are as strong as Jack's feelings for him, but I think it's more in his subconscious while Jack is aware of his feelings, and that's one of the differences between them. I think that realization had hit Ennis when he went to Jack's parents' house, when he found the shirts, don't know how much he was able to admit to himself before that. Maybe Jack's statement that "I'm not like you" was partly a hint to this difference between them - that unlike Ennis, Jack couldn't repress his feelings and go on, he was too aware of his needs and of his love for Ennis, he wasn't restricted by the same paralyzing fear that chained Ennis. Acknowledging his feelings the way he did, he just couldn't go through life the way Ennis did. He knew that he needed more.

Excellent posts in the thread , how could I miss this?

This post ,as alot of other's here struck me. This one in particular. I may be wrong here but,  Here you say that Ennis may not have been aware of his feelings for Jack.  I don't feel that Ennis was as *front and center* with his ability to show his lfeeling for Jack, but I do feel that  he was very much aware of them.
In the reunion scenes he looses the fear for a few moments when he is so overcome with joy at seeing Jack again. Ater the reunion, and things had calmed down, Ennis knew that Jack had certain expectations after the way Ennis received him.

The conversation proceeds with Jack probably realizing that Ennis has not settled his preference for him over  Alma. " you and Alma, that's a life" , Ennis is merely existing, not really enjoying life in a totally fullilled way. Ennis said some very interesting things in that conversation by the river including the story of Earl and Rich , told to Jack as vividly as it happened yesterday. The flashback showed a stunned, frightened child, having an image seared into his mind. A gay man dead in a ditch. As a child, it was not his only bout with death, but this one fit into the puzzle of his conflict within  him,now, now that he finds himself in love with another man. He'd tried the *traditional* marriage route, did'nt work. Jack was a *third" person in their bedroom. He thought about Jack during those 4 yrs with Alma. Did the army get him? was he still mad over the punch?  where was he? What happened to him? Is this why Jack never bothered to look him up sooner? He was resigned to a life of society's expectations of him. Get married, have kids and live happily ever after. The fact that he loves someone else more is not part of the bargin. Especially if it's  feelings of love for  another Man. He was loyal to family, while Jack sought to leave his if Ennis agreed. He was'nt Ennis.

It's not just "two guys livin together" that he fears, It's two guys IN LOVE living together. Meeting out in the middle of nowhere may be  as close as he'd get to showing his love and need for Jack, but it's it is a feeling for Jack that drives him to show up. A feeling he cannot name, of course it's love. He loves being with him, because he gets something from it. Something he likes very much despite his father's homophobic teaching and preachings about gay men. despite the fear. He said it, with this feelings of awareness, with Jack in mind , he concedes that he cannot pull in the reins on them. Even if he wanted to, meaning Jack has grown a part of him, captured his heart. The Ennis pre-Brokeback, is not the  same Ennis post- Brokeback. I believe he meant it from the heart too. For as long as they can ride it might as well be *till death itself do them part. He may be conflicted inside as far as what his sexual orientation may be ,but where it relates to Jack, he is in love. All the signs are there and we see them. Wether he knows , or accepts what this *thing* is , it has him in it's grip.  ready or not, He really does'nt have it under control, It has him , like a drug.. He can't help but love Jack.

And of course Jack understood him. His cowboy being sensitive, skittish ,reserved, and complex. He understood the fears Ennis had, but he did'nt give up. Unlike him, Ennis was afraid of saying what he wants and getting it. Afraid of taking without conditions. To Ennis, nothing is free, including love, lessons learned from a cold, hard upbringing. Everything  good thing  in life has a price, and dreams and luck are fantasy.. He's not trusting enough.  I feel he felt he would be expected to do something in return for Jack's unconditional love. Something big. something he may not be ready for. On the one hand he knows he has everything to gain from being with Jack, on the other hand , he is afraid of dissappointing Jack and himself if he says yes to Jack's proposal, and can't carry through with it, paranoia sets in, Jack gets mighty hurt, and Ennis risks loosing him forever.  Ennis paces the meetings according to his schedule , but after enough time has passed, Jack begins to feel they're going nowhere with the relationship.
 Jack will never forget the summer on Brokeback, but needs a sign that their love found there ,is growing and reaching a higher level over time. as it should..  His dream of ranching up with Ennis will fill  that void in many ways. A a little courarage, compromise and verbal communication would have served them well.

The distance gives Ennis  way too much time to think imo, probably conjures up all kinds of scenarios about ranching up. They'd be outed, ridiculed , and Earl and Rich would eventually be repeated.  Jack will expect this, and Jack will expect that, Jack is open, he is closed, Jack likes people and loves to talk, he can't deal ..etc..
Jack, the dreamer becomes increasingly frustrated , but where can he go? back to Lureen and a half-life existence?, and who else can he love this way? Who else loves him like Ennis does despite the denials. In the confrontation, he said what he had to say, He was'nt Ennis, he did'nt handle things like Ennis, could'nt stand it like Ennis could. Did Ennis understand that the *short leash was choking Jack? I think so, he had one on himself as well. In order to tell lies to himself, he had to  be very aware of  the truth about his feelings for Jack.. He loved Jack and Jack loved him in spite of it all. MO. Thanx.

[welshwitch]

If I were to go back to the ancient theory of the four humours and the elements that comprised them, I'd say Jack was fire and air, while Ennis was earth and water.
It fits their endings, too; Jack was cremated and went up in smoke; Ennis was left with his work on the land and his tears.

[Matt Nasty]

If I were to go back to the ancient theory of the four humours and the elements that comprised them, I'd say Jack was fire and air, while Ennis was earth and water.
It fits their endings, too; Jack was cremated and went up in smoke; Ennis was left with his work on the land and his tears.

amazing metaphor im a little breathless...

[tpe]

If I were to go back to the ancient theory of the four humours and the elements that comprised them, I'd say Jack was fire and air, while Ennis was earth and water.
It fits their endings, too; Jack was cremated and went up in smoke; Ennis was left with his work on the land and his tears.

Very beautiful.

[myprivatejack]

If I were to go back to the ancient theory of the four humours and the elements that comprised them, I'd say Jack was fire and air, while Ennis was earth and water.
It fits their endings, too; Jack was cremated and went up in smoke; Ennis was left with his work on the land and his tears.

Beautiful¡ And the air can move the earth and the water can extinguish the fire; so both of them could lessen the main characteristics of each other...

[smartestsonia]

If I were to go back to the ancient theory of the four humours and the elements that comprised them, I'd say Jack was fire and air, while Ennis was earth and water.
It fits their endings, too; Jack was cremated and went up in smoke; Ennis was left with his work on the land and his tears.

amazing..very well thought and expressed ...just wanted to add to your great analysis....hope its ok ..
Jack was fire who always wanted to burn in passion and air to fly high with his love for Ennis....Ennis was more conscious of the society inhibitions in the world and these inhibitions did leave him thirsty for more in the end...

[myprivatejack]

amazing..very well thought and expressed ...just wanted to add to your great analysis....hope its ok ..
Jack was fire who always wanted to burn in passion and air to fly high with his love for Ennis....Ennis was more conscious of the society inhibitions in the world and these inhibitions did leave him thirsty for more in the end...

Wonderful¡      You have put it into words in a lovely way¡.And I'd add that Ennis had his roots on Earth-and his feet-but he needed water; water to lessen his passion for Jack in the beginning-because this put him into a conflict with society-and water to lessen his thirst for him,his memories and for a better life in the end. :\'(

[smartestsonia]

Wonderful¡      You have put it into words in a lovely way¡.And I'd add that Ennis had his roots on Earth-and his feet-but he needed water; water to lessen his passion for Jack in the beginning-because this put him into a conflict with society-and water to lessen his thirst for him,his memories and for a better life in the end. :\'(

 
The Water was a hope to quench his thirst for Jack and soothe his soul and live by those memories with Jack---amazing thought

[tpe]

Beautiful exchange, MPJ and smartestsonia.  Thank you. 

[gothica_vanessa]

wow, that's a hard question. so many things in those 4 words, he !!!
that's what great with bbm, it's all so succinct that you can read it at least 1000 different ways most of the times. i guess that's why the movie touch so many people, because we can put in it what we need/want/hope to see in it.
to me, it's a "i can't live anymore with the little tiny bits you allow us to have" (jack is tired of standing it, he needs to fix it, or cut it.)

------

ps : love the way you started the topic, you thought about it a lot ...

I'm not you: En, you don't know anything about your real sexuality, well, I mean, you don't accept it and you don't want to accept it. But I'm different; I know who I am, I know well what I want, I like boys, yeah, really, and I'm not ashamed of it. I said to you: I'm not a queer, but I was so young and I didn't want to lose you, so what about if I tell you I'm gay? What? I'm not afraid of people, I'm not afraid of killers, I'm not afraid of Earl and Rich's ghost; are you going to punch me? Come on, I'm not afraid of you!!!
-> tammy i like your take on that one A LOT !!!

I'm not you: En, you are so stoic, so conformist, so realistic.......but, at the same time, you are so sad, so bitter. I was a dreamer, I was a boy full of hope, I was happy, I used to smile all the whole time, and I really would like to be that Jack again; I need it En; I'm not you, I need dreams, crazy things, promises to carry on; I need words, I need to know that you love me.
-> you know, you made me cry here.

vanessa

[babytammy7]

 

-> tammy i like your take on that one A LOT !!!

-> you know, you made me cry here.

vanessa

Well, Vane, I was NOT kidding when I said to you that I love the way you think and feel and ALL what you write, because you are like me; I think we are so similar, I mean, we see Ennis and Jack almost with the same eyes, and that's why you gave me wings, because you read my mind and heart and you know what I love from BBM and what I need to dream again.

Thank you for your post. 

Sorry for this rambling and OT, Thomas and moderators!! 

[gothica_vanessa]

For me, 
Jack accused Ennis of not wanting a life with him, that Ennis was willing to accept the status quo.  Jack believed that the couple of  high attitude f@$ks was just fine with Ennis. I think Jack was was saying,  "I'm not you".  This arrangement is not OK with me. 
Jack was sadly under the misunderstanding, that this is what  Ennis wanted, but on a deeper level, this was not OK with Ennis, this was Ennis's burden.  How could Jack know that how Ennis lived his life was all done to keep Jack in his life. 
IMO.

i had to cry
but i can't help but believe that the moment ennis falls on his knees just a moment later, jack realises though that ennis feels it too. getting someone as ennis del mar to cry at your feet, it must means something, right? no matter how tired, desperate, sad and hurting you are, you can't misunderstand THAT, right ? and jack must know, somewhere under the hurt, that ennis is standing it because he believes it's the only way to keep jack safe (please, jack, remember at least the look on the white pick-up driving by that damn day of '75, huh ...)

but then there's the why don't you just let me be, and the i can't take it anymore, jack. (god) which can be taken (as nearly all the time with ennis) in 2 total opposite ways ... - so sorry, now i'm going off topic i guess, but i can't help to yell DAMN YOU ENNIS too - and jack is lost again ...

why had the movie had to end that way, huh. why couldn't they get that meeting in november and finally talk and fix a few things, huh. jeez, i'm a mess, i should go to bed now
vanessa

[gothica_vanessa]

I'm not sure how much Ennis is aware of these things, his feelings for Jack. I think that more than he is pretending, he's repressing. I agree with you that he loves Jack the same way Jack loves him, but I don't know if he admits that to himself or allows himself to think about it. Does he know that he and Jack are meant to be together? That I'm not sure of, since Ennis can't accept the idea of two men living together. Heath described Ennis as "a homophobic man in love with another man" and being that, he hates the way he loves. He can't accept his feelings, he surely can't consider the idea that he might be gay. He represses his feelings so deeply because admitting them would be too frightening for him. So yes, his feelings for Jack are as strong as Jack's feelings for him, but I think it's more in his subconscious while Jack is aware of his feelings, and that's one of the differences between them. I think that realization had hit Ennis when he went to Jack's parents' house, when he found the shirts, don't know how much he was able to admit to himself before that. Maybe Jack's statement that "I'm not like you" was partly a hint to this difference between them - that unlike Ennis, Jack couldn't repress his feelings and go on, he was too aware of his needs and of his love for Ennis, he wasn't restricted by the same paralyzing fear that chained Ennis. Acknowledging his feelings the way he did, he just couldn't go through life the way Ennis did. He knew that he needed more.

WOW keren, that is gorgeously put !!!
i totally agree with you, except on one point.
to me, ennis realised right by that lake confrontation finally everything for what it is - hence the crying and falling on the ground. the shirts were then the confirmation that it had always been like that for jack too, that mexico and "that ranch neighbour from down i texas" (jeez, that must have hurt so bad ) really never had mattered.
to me, those 2 scenes mirrored each other, in a way. the confrontation scene and ennis breaking apart is jack's proof finally that ennis FEELS it too. the shirts scene is ennis proof that jack - even after their arguying by the lake - never really gave up on him and still FELT it till the end.
crying again
us being around here surely makes kleenex happy and richer by the minut
vanessa

[gothica_vanessa]

Well, Vane, I was NOT kidding when I said to you that I love the way you think and feel and ALL what you write, because you are like me; I think we are so similar, I mean, we see Ennis and Jack almost with the same eyes, and that's why you gave me wings, because you read my mind and heart and you know what I love from BBM and what I need to dream again.
Thank you for your post. 
Sorry for this rambling and OT, Thomas and moderators!! 

sorry everyone, off toppic but for the last time ...
tammy, i guess you're right. we really ARE sisters of the mind and you know you give me wings too, all the time
hugs
vanessa

[tpe]

Well, Vane, I was NOT kidding when I said to you that I love the way you think and feel and ALL what you write, because you are like me; I think we are so similar, I mean, we see Ennis and Jack almost with the same eyes, and that's why you gave me wings, because you read my mind and heart and you know what I love from BBM and what I need to dream again.

Thank you for your post. 

Sorry for this rambling and OT, Thomas and moderators!! 

No need to apologize.  It is great to see this thread after not having seen it in a while.  It is always moving to re-read the wonderful posts here...

 

[gothica_vanessa]

Jack He was saying:-"My existential phrase is not If you can't fix it,you've got to stand itlike you have.Mine is You've got to stand it only while you're fighting to fix it.And as long as you can't understand this difference between you and me,Ennis,there will be an unsatisfactory situation about our future".IMO.

that's really nicely put !!!!

I wonder if Ennis knew himself at all.  "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere",  did he know where he fit in this world.   His reclusive nature when he's not with Jack makes me think that he really didn't know where he fit in.  Like Jack, it was like he was searching too for not so much respect, but his own identity. 
He was caught between the idea of being called "queer", a label which could mean his own possible death, and living that "up right straight life",  where he couldn't quite master, he did make a mess of his marriage, and couldn't make that intimate connection with Cassie.
He wasn't Jack, and Jack wasn't him.   Both looking for respect and identity, and found it in each other only on the mountain.

AND

Yes,persons who disguise themselves most and best with the stoicism cloak are who break down in a most complete and desperate way,aren't they?.So,we can see how the deepest radical reactions come on Ennis part;when they must leave BBM,in the alley,in the confrontation scene...Even in the reunion scene we see how he's taking off this cloak and looks like even more desperate and needy of the relationship than Jack himself;whom we see crying only in the rejection after the divorce,but who is maintaining his reactions (his feelings,his needs...) in a more continued and permanent way.It's difficult,really difficult to oblige your mind,you heart and your mouth to say NO when you want to give all a different answer,indeed...That's Ennis great contradiction with which he lived all his life,and that Jack,obviously,didn't have.

yep. totally true.
damn ennis, love you so much baby  :\'( :\'( :\'(
*crying my eyes out*
vanessa

[topoex]

the one thing i can't figure out is that ennis would fight two big biker dudes and be afraid of some dead old guy he saw when he was kid.  ennis was afraid of the dark, and too dumb to think jack had a flashlight.

i know this may sound stupid.  but thinking about it thats how i feel.

[gothica_vanessa]

the one thing i can't figure out is that ennis would fight two big biker dudes and be afraid of some dead old guy he saw when he was kid.  ennis was afraid of the dark, and too dumb to think jack had a flashlight.
i know this may sound stupid.  but thinking about it thats how i feel.

i really like the way you told that, nice choice of words. but it wasn't that ennis was dumb. it was just that he was REALLY afraid. ennis isn't scared of getting in a fight and getting bruised. but he's scared to death about the possibility (in his mind, even the certainty) that them living together will bring harm to them - thus harm to jack.

fear is one of the most powerful feeling. i would even say it's the most powerful emotion we can feel, equalled only with love, in an antithesis way. hate isn't the opposite of love, fear is. we are powerless against them both. and they push us to do what they want us to do, no matter what, making us move mountains or run as far as possible away from them when they hold us in their grip.

so ennis isn't being dumb. he is just being scared. because there's nothing as bad as losing someone you hold dear. the pain of the loss of someone who was it all ... how can you ever recover from that ... i know that's what i'm scared of the most, maybe even more than my own death. so in my mind, ennis was scared to death about something bad happening to jack because he knew the only thing he maybe wouldn't be able to stand would be something bad happening to jack.

the thing with fear is that's it's an instinct which can kills you, but which can save you too. so in ennis's mind, listening to his fear IS the right way to keep them from harm. after all, fear is what push the gazelle to flee when the lions come to get her, and fear give the gazel the chance to escape and stay unharmed. it's maybe just a 50/50 chance, but it's more chance than just staying here and waiting for the claws to rip you apart, right ... or to use your metaphor, staying hidden in the dark can save your life too. using a flashlight can save you, but it can kill you too, because then, bad things know where to go if they want to find you ... so using a flashlight is in the end just a 50/50 chance too.

the tragic in BBM of course being that being scared of that only brought ennis's fear to become reality in the end. ennis realised far too late the safer choice after all would have been keeping jack close, and not holding him at the arm length he believed was safe. because then they would have least be able to fight together, and not apart. because in the end, better fall together than being the last one standing.

so now ... as we say in french OUINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN ...
*sorry, can't continue, too much thinking and rambling about this and i just dissolve into a mess*
vanessa

[tpe]

the one thing i can't figure out is that ennis would fight two big biker dudes and be afraid of some dead old guy he saw when he was kid.  ennis was afraid of the dark, and too dumb to think jack had a flashlight.

i know this may sound stupid.  but thinking about it thats how i feel.

Well, we should remember that traumatic memories -- especially those that happen in childhood -- have a much more powerful hold on people than we would think.  In fact, imagined fears are usually greater than real ones.  It is part and parcel of human nature to react to fear viscerally -- whether or not the fear itself is real or justified.

 

[myprivatejack]

the one thing i can't figure out is that ennis would fight two big biker dudes and be afraid of some dead old guy he saw when he was kid.  ennis was afraid of the dark, and too dumb to think jack had a flashlight.i know this may sound stupid.  but thinking about it thats how i feel.

I like very much the way you describe it,Topoex,even if I don't agree totally with you.Ennis was able to fight with these two big bikers without any fear because he reacted as the male who is defending his family.to say it in some way...-.But he was afraid all his life not of a dead old guy,but of what this guy meant,or could mean for him;the intolerance,the lack of respect,the misunderstanding and the hate.This old guy could have been himself,or Jack,and it's the symbolism who scared him.
I don't think this is being dumb,because IMO he knew fairly well that Jack had a flashlight,what's more; he knew fairly well that Jack WAS his flashlight in life.But let's say that his fears were bigger than his love,and this was his,their,tragedy...

[lancecowboy]

I love the exchanges here. Our two newest members got me, right here. Kudos to you both. 

the one thing i can't figure out is that ennis would fight two big biker dudes and be afraid of some dead old guy he saw when he was kid.  ennis was afraid of the dark, and too dumb to think jack had a flashlight.

i know this may sound stupid.  but thinking about it thats how i feel.

I love that metaphor... Ennis was afraid of the dark, but was too [scared] to see that Jack had the flashlight. More on this later, after Vennesa's brilliant analysis.

i really like the way you told that, nice choice of words. but it wasn't that ennis was dumb. it was just that he was REALLY afraid. ennis isn't scared of getting in a fight and getting bruised. but he's scared to death about the possibility (in his mind, even the certainty) that them living together will bring harm to them - thus harm to jack.

fear is one of the most powerful feeling. i would even say it's the most powerful emotion we can feel, equalled only with love, in an antithesis way. hate isn't the opposite of love, fear is. we are powerless against them both. and they push us to do what they want us to do, no matter what, making us move mountains or run as far as possible away from them when they hold us in their grip.

so ennis isn't being dumb. he is just being scared. because there's nothing as bad as losing someone you hold dear. the pain of the loss of someone who was it all ... how can you ever recover from that ... i know that's what i'm scared of the most, maybe even more than my own death. so in my mind, ennis was scared to death about something bad happening to jack because he knew the only thing he maybe wouldn't be able to stand would be something bad happening to jack.

the thing with fear is that's it's an instinct which can kills you, but which can save you too. so in ennis's mind, listening to his fear IS the right way to keep them from harm. after all, fear is what push the gazelle to flee when the lions come to get her, and fear give the gazel the chance to escape and stay unharmed. it's maybe just a 50/50 chance, but it's more chance than just staying here and waiting for the claws to rip you apart, right ... or to use your metaphor, staying hidden in the dark can save your life too. using a flashlight can save you, but it can kill you too, because then, bad things know where to go if they want to find you ... so using a flashlight is in the end just a 50/50 chance too.

the tragic in BBM of course being that being scared of that only brought ennis's fear to become reality in the end. ennis realised far too late the safer choice after all would have been keeping jack close, and not holding him at the arm length he believed was safe. because then they would have least be able to fight together, and not apart. because in the end, better fall together than being the last one standing.

so now ... as we say in french OUINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN ...
*sorry, can't continue, too much thinking and rambling about this and i just dissolve into a mess*
vanessa

  Vanessa  :\'( I have never seen Brokeback Mountain and Ennis and Jack encapsulated so well, in short short a post.  ( Awesome.

The movie is about homophobia, Ennis' fear created by the childhood trauma of witnessing first-hand in close range to what homophobia can do, to someone he knew, maybe even was close to. You are so right about the fear of loss being the powerful engine in the movie, and the irony, the tragedy of it. If Ennis had the courage to overcome his own fear, to embrace Jack his whole life, then he would not have lost. It was the fear, that kept them separated, and the fear that caused them to be apart when Jack needed Ennis the most...better to fight and fall together, and to be live separate lives apart... :\'(

Fear keeps us separate as lonely individuals...Love brings us together into communities.

Even hate, at least, brings two people together into sometimes a powerful love-hate relationship that caused endless pain, but not loneliness. Hate, as you said, is anti-love. Fear is the opposite of love. Fear isolates; love binds.

Welcome, and thank you so much for you beautiful thoughts. 

[babytammy7]

i really like the way you told that, nice choice of words. but it wasn't that ennis was dumb. it was just that he was REALLY afraid. ennis isn't scared of getting in a fight and getting bruised. but he's scared to death about the possibility (in his mind, even the certainty) that them living together will bring harm to them - thus harm to jack.

fear is one of the most powerful feeling. i would even say it's the most powerful emotion we can feel, equalled only with love, in an antithesis way. hate isn't the opposite of love, fear is. we are powerless against them both. and they push us to do what they want us to do, no matter what, making us move mountains or run as far as possible away from them when they hold us in their grip.

so ennis isn't being dumb. he is just being scared. because there's nothing as bad as losing someone you hold dear. the pain of the loss of someone who was it all ... how can you ever recover from that ... i know that's what i'm scared of the most, maybe even more than my own death. so in my mind, ennis was scared to death about something bad happening to jack because he knew the only thing he maybe wouldn't be able to stand would be something bad happening to jack.

the thing with fear is that's it's an instinct which can kills you, but which can save you too. so in ennis's mind, listening to his fear IS the right way to keep them from harm. after all, fear is what push the gazelle to flee when the lions come to get her, and fear give the gazel the chance to escape and stay unharmed. it's maybe just a 50/50 chance, but it's more chance than just staying here and waiting for the claws to rip you apart, right ... or to use your metaphor, staying hidden in the dark can save your life too. using a flashlight can save you, but it can kill you too, because then, bad things know where to go if they want to find you ... so using a flashlight is in the end just a 50/50 chance too.

the tragic in BBM of course being that being scared of that only brought ennis's fear to become reality in the end. ennis realised far too late the safer choice after all would have been keeping jack close, and not holding him at the arm length he believed was safe. because then they would have least be able to fight together, and not apart. because in the end, better fall together than being the last one standing.

so now ... as we say in french OUINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN ...
*sorry, can't continue, too much thinking and rambling about this and i just dissolve into a mess*
vanessa

This is made of awesome, Vane. I'm pretty speechless here. No wonder why you're a writer. 

So gorgeous and powerful post, full of truth and beautiful punching meaning. I agree with every word, baby. I especially love the last part.  :\'( :\'( :\'(

Thank you. 

[topoex]

the word dumb may have been a little hard.  but the one thing i don't see is trust.   i see no trust between the two, ennis to me didn't trust himself or jack.

the one thing i knew is that i trust my lover, not to hurt me, or  put in a bad spot.  i didn't see that with ennis.  he stay away, and hid.   jack was telling ennis come out the hole you're in, here's my hand.

how could they live together happy, if ennis didn't trust in jack they could be happy.

[topoex]

Well, we should remember that traumatic memories -- especially those that happen in childhood -- have a much more powerful hold on people than we would think.  In fact, imagined fears are usually greater than real ones.  It is part and parcel of human nature to react to fear viscerally -- whether or not the fear itself is real or justified.

 

i didn't read this one until now.  bad things that happened in childhood,  it could break you, or make you.  it broke ennis.   i chose not to let what happen break me.   some say it might still be with me.  but to let it stop me from having what i want, i had to decide. 

jack gave twenty years for ennis to decide.  and died waiting for it.  i sure as hell wasn't going to let it be me, i knew what i wanted.

[Ranchand1]

    " how could they live together happy, if Ennis didn't trust in jack they could be happy"

       This was part of the tragedy.  A struggle we are presented.  These two broken desperate boys/men couldn't be happy together. Not in any conventional/traditional sense.  But they manage, through it all, to find a way it could work, for them, in that time, in that place.  Not prefect by any means.  Gut-wrenchin in my opinion.  Not for the faint of heart.  Sometimes love doesn't conquer all.

[lancecowboy]

the word dumb may have been a little hard.  but the one thing i don't see is trust.   i see no trust between the two, ennis to me didn't trust himself or jack.

the one thing i knew is that i trust my lover, not to hurt me, or  put in a bad spot.  i didn't see that with ennis.  he stay away, and hid.   jack was telling ennis come out the hole you're in, here's my hand.

how could they live together happy, if ennis didn't trust in jack they could be happy.

i didn't read this one until now.  bad things that happened in childhood,  it could break you, or make you.  it broke ennis.   i chose not to let what happen break me.   some say it might still be with me.  but to let it stop me from having what i want, i had to decide. 

jack gave twenty years for ennis to decide.  and died waiting for it.  i sure as hell wasn't going to let it be me, i knew what i wanted.

topoex, you are one remarkable young man. What you said about trust is absolutely right on. Fear made Ennis distrustful. I caught on to those early surreptitious glances as distrustful of strangers, even though now, I see elements of interest and attraction there also. You are right that Jack knew and trusted what could be between them, and reached out to Ennis...I love your metaphors...Ennis hiding in his hole, and Jack reaching out his hand for Ennis to take hold, but Ennis was too fearful, and could not bring himself to trust Jack, or himself to have a new future. Bravo, topoex. You are awesome.

Childhood trauma are indeed powerful, but the sooner we get over them, the earlier in age we recognize and overcome them, the more likely that they do not leave lasting impact. Ennis was already nineteen when he met Jack, by reunion he was already twenty three. With every year, and every meet, the old habits got further entrenched into Ennis and also into his relationship with Jack, until after twenty years, the final confrontation was almost inevitable.

I am so glad to hear you making a choice, to decide for yourself what you want in your future. I know you will have a bright and happy future. There is nothing you cannot do, as long as you trust in yourself to make the right choice, and continue to search for answers to your perceptive questions. I am very glad you are here in this forum.