Topic: scenes of observation

[lancecowboy]

Thanks Tpe for setting the record straight, to me the way the scene is presented , Ennis seems closer.
L Cowboy, sorry for your past experience concerning your loss, I'm glad you find solace within  the movie and this forum. Amazing! You and MG have a gift of extrordinary insight.  A wonderful way of word expression, I learn something every time you post. Thanks.

Ennis was seemingly powerless, but in reality he was not without choices. He made the one he thought best at the time imo. The passer-by who stopped to observe Ennis in the alley, out of concern was the recipient of Ennis's anger, anger at who? Jack? himself? or just the whole damn situation?Apparently, when he feels powerless, he punches things, or someone. I doubt he felt the physical pain of punching a brick wall, but the emotional impact of  pain and loss ,loosing Jack was  so overwhelming for him.In my opinion he could've used a punching bag.  :c)Great acting on Ledgers's part here. Just an observation.

Aintfoolin, I can't believe you put me in the same lofty league as MG, in the same sentence no less. I am always amazed by MG's posts and her extraordinary analysis of the scenes, the motivation, the characters, pithy yet hitting the target as a laser beam hits the moon... I appreciate what you say, however, it means a lot, and I feel very honored by being mentioned in that sentence.

I felt powerless, too, and was in a deep depression for a long time. Ennis gets angry when he feels powerless, which is much healthier than turning the anger inward, turning it into depression. He was also in shock. To a man like Ennis, living an orderly world was the only way he felt in control. His little trailer may be empty of furniture, but it was immaculate and orderly, everything in its place, and a place for everything. To be told to leave the mountain after the coldest night of the year, dreaming of Jack's warm embrace the night after, was cruel and shocking to Ennis. He could've dealt with the parting at the end of the summer, but to have paradise yanked from beneath his feet, so suddenly, without preparation, without warning, without alternatives, without options, without the power to change one's situation...The punch was partly because of all this. In a way, it was good thing that he threw that punch. If not, he might have brooded until he got depressed, without any outlet, and turning to drinks, or worse. Yup. He could've used  a punching bag. It's also why he loved ranch work, and would never consider working in a power plant for better pay. Ennis, clumsy? Alma didn't buy that in a second. She just knew that he wasn't going to change, and she wanted more for herself and her kids. I don't blame her one minute for divorcing him. He never should've married her in the first place. Society's oppressive customs made two victims other than Ennis and Jack. Fear of love ...fear of showing love...Where there is fear, there is usually someone getting hurt. Oops...wrong topic!

And I aint foolin, you people are the best thing that happened to me in my life.
 

[tpe]

Ennis was seemingly powerless, but in reality he was not without choices. He made the one he thought best at the time imo. The passer-by who stopped to observe Ennis in the alley, out of concern was the recipient of Ennis's anger, anger at who? Jack? himself? or just the whole damn situation?Apparently, when he feels powerless, he punches things, or someone. I doubt he felt the physical pain of punching a brick wall, but the emotional impact of  pain and loss ,loosing Jack was  so overwhelming for him.In my opinion he could've used a punching bag.  :c)Great acting on Ledgers's part here. Just an observation.

I think it was more of hate towards himself -- for allowing himself to get into all this, for falling in love.   Incidentally, the scenes from the parting of Ennis and Jack to the marriage scene was the one selected for BBM in Ang Lee's moderated discussion at the Times Center in NYC.

I think here lies the big difference between Ennis and Jack: Ennis really felt that he didn't have that many choices, but Jack was oblivious to niceties and wanted only to push the envelope, in spite of all the probable consequences.  Jack was perhaps too reckless, and Ennis was perhaps to conservative. 

[babytammy7]

The sheep, beans, coyotes, and snowfall weren't important anymore, Ennis slept every night with Jack, awoke with him every morning, then it's over so suddenly.   The one human being in his whole life he connected with, and he was being taken away so soon.   How powerless he must have felt with Jack driving off, and there was nothing he could do about it, but fall on his knees and retch. 

The pain of loss, was so unbearable, and how human. 
 

OMG MG, so beautiful!!!! And so heartbreaking!!! You've really made cry!!!  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[aintfoolin]

I think it was more of hate towards himself -- for allowing himself to get into all this, for falling in love.   Incidentally, the scenes from the parting of Ennis and Jack to the marriage scene was the one selected for BBM in Ang Lee's moderated discussion at the Times Center in NYC.

I think here lies the big difference between Ennis and Jack: Ennis really felt that he didn't have that many choices, but Jack was oblivious to niceties and wanted only to push the envelope, in spite of all the probable consequences.  Jack was perhaps too reckless, and Ennis was perhaps to conservative. 

 I agree Tpe,  Ennis said within the story that it took him about a year to realize that he should never have let Jack out of his sights. Well what changed then?  A year? How about him knowing pre- Jack driving off that day in "63"?

Obviously he knew then the mistake he was making.  his choices regrettable, Why not keep in touch? So for the next 3 years Ennis thought about Jack every time he looked at a mountain  or his horses, and wished he had him back in his life but he was stuck with what he had.

 How ever he felt about Alma at the time, I feel he knew it did'nt compare to the way Jack made him feel. Ennis was sending Jack mixed messages imo ( the drive off scene, the reunion scene, and the divorce scenes for examples of leading Jack on)and in a way I feel it was insulting to Jack's emotions to be told that a year later, when he's married Alma and has a small child , all of a sudden it dons on him that he should have never let Jack go? hmmmm. Is it all about Ennis here? Seems so, but Jack has feelings too.

We can speculate forever on what choices he should have made but he had them. Only a year later, he compares  what he had with Jack to what he has with Alma. and Jack obviously wins out evidenced by Ennis's behavior 3 years after the "great realization"  in the reunion scene.
 Of course he sent up a prayer of thanks, thanking the one above and his lucky stars that he was getting a second chance with Jack. Though he still could not commit fully the way Jack wanted, never again was Jack missing from his life on any long term basis  like four years again.

I know I sound cynical /critical of Ennis's rationalizing,, but alot of people were hurt by the choices Ennis did make...., himself included .......Meanwhile, Jack is searching for what has alluded him. Some one who relates and understands him. Could'nt find it it in the rodeo clown and settles for Lureen, repeating Ennis's mistake. His own fears coming into play regarding a challenge to Ennis's choices. They liked and cared for these women, but I doubt either one of them fell deeply in love with their wives. Both their hearts where already spoken for in "63". Anything and anyone could never measure up . I love Ennis, but Jack deserved better.  My observations. 

[babytammy7]

I agree Tpe,  Ennis said within the story that it took him about a year to realize that he should never have let Jack out of his sights. Well what changed then?  A year? How about him knowing pre- Jack driving off that day in "63"?

Obviously he knew then the mistake he was making.  his choices regrettable, Why not keep in touch? So for the next 3 years Ennis thought about Jack every time he looked at a mountain  or his horses, and wished he had him back in his life but he was stuck with what he had.

 How ever he felt about Alma at the time, I feel he knew it did'nt compare to the way Jack made him feel. Ennis was sending Jack mixed messages imo ( the drive off scene, the reunion scene, and the divorce scenes for examples of leading Jack on)and in a way I feel it was insulting to Jack's emotions to be told that a year later, when he's married Alma and has a small child , all of a sudden it dons on him that he should have never let Jack go? hmmmm. Is it all about Ennis here? Seems so, but Jack has feelings too.

We can speculate forever on what choices he should have made but he had them. Only a year later, he compares  what he had with Jack to what he has with Alma. and Jack obviously wins out evidenced by Ennis's behavior 3 years after the "great realization"  in the reunion scene.
 Of course he sent up a prayer of thanks, thanking the one above and his lucky stars that he was getting a second chance with Jack. Though he still could not commit fully the way Jack wanted, never again was Jack missing from his life on any long term basis  like four years again.

I know I sound cynical /critical of Ennis's rationalizing,, but alot of people were hurt by the choices Ennis did make...., himself included .......Meanwhile, Jack is searching for what has alluded him. Some one who relates and understands him. Could'nt find it it in the rodeo clown and settles for Lureen, repeating Ennis's mistake. His own fears coming into play regarding a challenge to Ennis's choices. They liked and cared for these women, but I doubt either one of them fell deeply in love with their wives. Both their hearts where already spoken for in "63". Anything and anyone could never measure up . I love Ennis, but Jack deserved better.   My observations. 

I agree with you AF!!! Very well said!!  I love Ennis but, as you said, Jack has feelings and a big heart so often broken!!!  :\'(

[lancecowboy]

I agree Tpe,  Ennis said within the story that it took him about a year to realize that he should never have let Jack out of his sights. Well what changed then?  A year? How about him knowing pre- Jack driving off that day in "63"?

Obviously he knew then the mistake he was making.  his choices regrettable, Why not keep in touch? So for the next 3 years Ennis thought about Jack every time he looked at a mountain  or his horses, and wished he had him back in his life but he was stuck with what he had.

 How ever he felt about Alma at the time, I feel he knew it did'nt compare to the way Jack made him feel. Ennis was sending Jack mixed messages imo ( the drive off scene, the reunion scene, and the divorce scenes for examples of leading Jack on)and in a way I feel it was insulting to Jack's emotions to be told that a year later, when he's married Alma and has a small child , all of a sudden it dons on him that he should have never let Jack go? hmmmm. Is it all about Ennis here? Seems so, but Jack has feelings too.

We can speculate forever on what choices he should have made but he had them. Only a year later, he compares  what he had with Jack to what he has with Alma. and Jack obviously wins out evidenced by Ennis's behavior 3 years after the "great realization"  in the reunion scene.
 Of course he sent up a prayer of thanks, thanking the one above and his lucky stars that he was getting a second chance with Jack. Though he still could not commit fully the way Jack wanted, never again was Jack missing from his life on any long term basis  like four years again.

I know I sound cynical /critical of Ennis's rationalizing,, but alot of people were hurt by the choices Ennis did make...., himself included .......Meanwhile, Jack is searching for what has alluded him. Some one who relates and understands him. Could'nt find it it in the rodeo clown and settles for Lureen, repeating Ennis's mistake. His own fears coming into play regarding a challenge to Ennis's choices. They liked and cared for these women, but I doubt either one of them fell deeply in love with their wives. Both their hearts where already spoken for in "63". Anything and anyone could never measure up . I love Ennis, but Jack deserved better.  My observations. 

I am not defending Ennis because I love the character, and the role portrayed by Heath Ledger.

I am only making observations in my humble opinion to present an alternative viewpoint.

First of all, in the summer of '63, Ennis was not prepared to do anything more than stay in touch with Jack. Cowboys simply do that in those days in rural Wyoming. It is unfair to judge Ennis with our standards of today. Circumstances are different. Ennis does not think as fast as Jack, which is why the two complements each other so well. All Ennis knew was the scene of Earl that his father showed him, as far as he knew, the father (the man he idolized) could have done the job. In the short story, Ennis also mentioned that if his father walked in on them in the motel room, he'd probably go get his tire iron.

Secondly, I agree that Ennis should have postponed the wedding. But again, in the social customs of the time, Ennis tried to buried his feelings in the prayer to be "delivered from evil, and led not into temptation." This scene in the movie is so poignant for me, and it is also why it is my least favorite part of the movie. It was the beginning of the tragedy. If Ennis postponed the wedding, to work Brokeback another year, as an excuse to save more money, he might have met up with Jack again and worked things out. As it were, his haste to get hitched with Alma led to the lies he had to tell, the ...

Finally, Ennis never gave Jack any mixed message. It was clear from the beginning that Ennis only wanted a one shot deal, only wanted the fun of being cowboys with Jack. Even Jack was surprised at the intensity of the reunion. Ennis certainly must have been shocked..."there ain't no reins on this one". As far as Ennis is concerned, the rules were clear and the boundaries set, which is why Jack is always hesitant to propose anything more than just Brokeback Mountain. He knew the response from Ennis and after a while, he doesn't want to get shot down any more.

The love that Jack had for Ennis, even when insulted and heartbroken, was always forgiving and loving. It is this force of nature that transformed Ennis in the end, when he discovered how constant and faithful Jack was to him, even unto the end, well, almost. The immovable object was moved by the force of nature. Without Ennis' stubborn resistance, the movie would not be as meaningful, and Jack's love would not be held up as so admirable. Ennis and Jack are what they are. Neither can be any different without the movie being very different.

And I agree, also, that the wives deserved better. They were also the victims of society's oppressive custom of marrying off young people just for the sake of marriage and procreation. Truth is, they were the most victimized of the couples, although they were also with power in the movie, Alma by having the truth, and taking a stand while Lureen by having money. In both cases, they did not act like victims, because they were able to stand up for themselves.

Ennis and Jack were also able to eventually stand up for their love for each other. Jack through the shirts he left behind, with his mother's acceptance and acknowledgement; Ennis through the love of his daughter(s) and his memory of Jack and Brokeback Mountain.

[manhattangirl]

I don't how to explain what I'm thinking, so please bare with me.  Ennis always for me anyway went by the five senses, more so than thinking too much about how he felt.  FNIT was pure sexual desire he was aroused, so took Jack, that night.  The SNIT, he really felt Jack, he touched him, wanted to get lost in the scent of Jack, he closed his eyes, and let the senses take over, he succumb totally to touch, to smell, to desire.

And it was that way in the final scene of the movie,  when Alma left her sweater he folded so neatly, and brought it to his nose, to remember almost that "yes" she was there.  When he open the closet to put it away, he had to touch Jack's shirt, button that top button, and adjust the post card.

Ennis couldn't sit down and in a "Dr. Phil" moment discuss what was going with him, it wasn't happening.   When it got too much for him to deal with it was in violence he reacted,  the punch he gave Jack that final day, he didn't want leave him, he was aroused by their play fighting, remember it was Ennis who took it a step further, Jack was trying calm him down when the knee to nose happened and Ennis started bleeding, the shove he in the final confrontation, when in threatening Jack, he couldn't deal with idea of Jack giving himself to some else but him.  The Thanksgiving with Alma, the reality of his best kept secret was revealed, but the fact that she knew didn't bothered him, but the fact she attacked his lover angered him. 

His understanding of Jack's love for him was in the shirts, something he could hold feel, and finally understand.   And I'll bet, Jack knew Ennis better than anyone else, he had be shown love. 

I don't if this make any sense at all, but it's alway been in my head.

[lancecowboy]

I don't how to explain what I'm thinking, so please bare with me.  Ennis always for me anyway went by the five senses, more so than thinking too much about how he felt.  FNIT was pure sexual desire he was aroused, so took Jack, that night.  The SNIT, he really felt Jack, he touched him, wanted to get lost in the scent of Jack, he closed his eyes, and let the senses take over, he succumb totally to touch, to smell, to desire.

And it was that way in the final scene of the movie,  when Alma left her sweater he folded so neatly, and brought it to his nose, to remember almost that "yes" she was there.  When he open the closet to put it away, he had to touch Jack's shirt, button that top button, and adjust the post card.

Ennis couldn't sit down and in a "Dr. Phil" moment discuss what was going with him, it wasn't happening.   When it got too much for him to deal with it was in violence he reacted,  the punch he gave Jack that final day, he didn't want leave him, he was aroused by their play fighting, remember it was Ennis who took it a step further, Jack was trying calm him down when the knee to nose happened and Ennis started bleeding, the shove he in the final confrontation, when in threatening Jack, he couldn't deal with idea of Jack giving himself to some else but him.  The Thanksgiving with Alma, the reality of his best kept secret was revealed, but the fact that she knew didn't bothered him, but the fact she attacked his lover angered him. 

His understanding of Jack's love for him was in the shirts, something he could hold feel, and finally understand.   And I'll bet, Jack knew Ennis better than anyone else, he had be shown love. 

I don't if this make any sense at all, but it's alway been in my head.

  , manhattangirl, that's so perceptive. When you put it all together like that, it's almost too obvious. Like I said, I see but I don't perceive. And your final paragraph...that puts Jack's love for Ennis on a higher level. The shirts have been discussed in other topics, but that final scene really pulled everything together, especially now that you made it clear Jack understood Ennis' need for tangible concreteness in his life. Ennis had trouble with abstract, intangibles, like the Pentecost, or taxes and inflation, and most important, the dream of a sweet life. Jack understood the intangibles, and in that moment of discovery, of touching the fabric of the shirts, smelling the scent of blood on the sleeves, hugging the warmth of two shirts fitted together, feeling the sensation of the collars on his face, pretending it was still Jack, smelling the tobacco, remembering the memories of the physical things they did on Brokeback Mountain, in the motel room - all that in a tiny moment in time, pushed Ennis past the point of resistance. He fell in love with Jack again. And this time, he was ready to acknowledge the love, to reciprocate it by being faithful to the end, to swear to scatter Jack's ashes on Brokeback Mountain.

As I said, the more I understand, the more I love this movie, and this forum.

 

[tpe]

I agree Tpe,  Ennis said within the story that it took him about a year to realize that he should never have let Jack out of his sights. Well what changed then?  A year? How about him knowing pre- Jack driving off that day in "63"?

Obviously he knew then the mistake he was making.  his choices regrettable, Why not keep in touch? So for the next 3 years Ennis thought about Jack every time he looked at a mountain  or his horses, and wished he had him back in his life but he was stuck with what he had.

 How ever he felt about Alma at the time, I feel he knew it did'nt compare to the way Jack made him feel. Ennis was sending Jack mixed messages imo ( the drive off scene, the reunion scene, and the divorce scenes for examples of leading Jack on)and in a way I feel it was insulting to Jack's emotions to be told that a year later, when he's married Alma and has a small child , all of a sudden it dons on him that he should have never let Jack go? hmmmm. Is it all about Ennis here? Seems so, but Jack has feelings too.

We can speculate forever on what choices he should have made but he had them. Only a year later, he compares  what he had with Jack to what he has with Alma. and Jack obviously wins out evidenced by Ennis's behavior 3 years after the "great realization"  in the reunion scene.
 Of course he sent up a prayer of thanks, thanking the one above and his lucky stars that he was getting a second chance with Jack. Though he still could not commit fully the way Jack wanted, never again was Jack missing from his life on any long term basis  like four years again.

I know I sound cynical /critical of Ennis's rationalizing,, but alot of people were hurt by the choices Ennis did make...., himself included .......Meanwhile, Jack is searching for what has alluded him. Some one who relates and understands him. Could'nt find it it in the rodeo clown and settles for Lureen, repeating Ennis's mistake. His own fears coming into play regarding a challenge to Ennis's choices. They liked and cared for these women, but I doubt either one of them fell deeply in love with their wives. Both their hearts where already spoken for in "63". Anything and anyone could never measure up . I love Ennis, but Jack deserved better.  My observations. 

Hello aintfoolin.  I think you did well to point out the mixed signals Ennis was forever putting out to those around him -- not only to Jack, I might add.  I find the scene with Alma and the young Junior quite disconcerting also: he is about to go on a trip with Jack to the mountains, with both he and Alma knowing full well what he will be doing up there; and yet, after evading her uncomfortable questions throughout the packing process, he kisses her tenderly before he leaves.  What is she to make out of all this?

In truth, these mixed signals did a lot of damage to Jack, Alma, the children, and Cassie later on.  It really displays total confusion on Ennis's part: on how he really feels and how he wishes to live his life.  Perhaps he wanted all, without accepting the fact that certain choices exclude others.  In a very real sense, his excuses at justifying his behavior to each of those around him is a form of self-rationalization.  So I don't think you are being cynical at all.  Ennis just didn't have a clue as to what he wanted most of all, and whether he was entitled to such happiness.

[tpe]

I am not defending Ennis because I love the character, and the role portrayed by Heath Ledger.

I am only making observations in my humble opinion to present an alternative viewpoint.

First of all, in the summer of '63, Ennis was not prepared to do anything more than stay in touch with Jack. Cowboys simply do that in those days in rural Wyoming. It is unfair to judge Ennis with our standards of today. Circumstances are different. Ennis does not think as fast as Jack, which is why the two complements each other so well. All Ennis knew was the scene of Earl that his father showed him, as far as he knew, the father (the man he idolized) could have done the job. In the short story, Ennis also mentioned that if his father walked in on them in the motel room, he'd probably go get his tire iron.

Secondly, I agree that Ennis should have postponed the wedding. But again, in the social customs of the time, Ennis tried to buried his feelings in the prayer to be "delivered from evil, and led not into temptation." This scene in the movie is so poignant for me, and it is also why it is my least favorite part of the movie. It was the beginning of the tragedy. If Ennis postponed the wedding, to work Brokeback another year, as an excuse to save more money, he might have met up with Jack again and worked things out. As it were, his haste to get hitched with Alma led to the lies he had to tell, the ...

Finally, Ennis never gave Jack any mixed message. It was clear from the beginning that Ennis only wanted a one shot deal, only wanted the fun of being cowboys with Jack. Even Jack was surprised at the intensity of the reunion. Ennis certainly must have been shocked..."there ain't no reins on this one". As far as Ennis is concerned, the rules were clear and the boundaries set, which is why Jack is always hesitant to propose anything more than just Brokeback Mountain. He knew the response from Ennis and after a while, he doesn't want to get shot down any more.

The love that Jack had for Ennis, even when insulted and heartbroken, was always forgiving and loving. It is this force of nature that transformed Ennis in the end, when he discovered how constant and faithful Jack was to him, even unto the end, well, almost. The immovable object was moved by the force of nature. Without Ennis' stubborn resistance, the movie would not be as meaningful, and Jack's love would not be held up as so admirable. Ennis and Jack are what they are. Neither can be any different without the movie being very different.

And I agree, also, that the wives deserved better. They were also the victims of society's oppressive custom of marrying off young people just for the sake of marriage and procreation. Truth is, they were the most victimized of the couples, although they were also with power in the movie, Alma by having the truth, and taking a stand while Lureen by having money. In both cases, they did not act like victims, because they were able to stand up for themselves.

Ennis and Jack were also able to eventually stand up for their love for each other. Jack through the shirts he left behind, with his mother's acceptance and acknowledgement; Ennis through the love of his daughter(s) and his memory of Jack and Brokeback Mountain.

Interesting points here, lance.  I don't know if I agree, but you do raise interesting points here. 

As far as Ennis was concerned, I am not even sure if he knew where all the set boundaries lay.  And here lies the problem of seeing that he didn't send mixed signals.  For if the boundaries were set, he would have been more careful to keep the worlds of Jack and Alma completely apart, the way Jack did with Lureen.  Granted, Alma had unfortunately spied on Ennis and Jack early on during the reunion, but his later total disregard of keeping things hidden from her speaks that he didn't really respect his own preconcieved boundaries.

Well, what you say nevertheless points to the fact that the case of Ennis is never simple.  I don't think he really knew what he wanted, up until it was too late.

[lancecowboy]

Interesting points here, lance.  I don't know if I agree, but you do raise interesting points here. 

As far as Ennis was concerned, I am not even sure if he knew where all the set boundaries lay.  And here lies the problem of seeing that he didn't send mixed signals.  For if the boundaries were set, he would have been more careful to keep the worlds of Jack and Alma completely apart, the way Jack did with Lureen.  Granted, Alma had unfortunately spied on Ennis and Jack early on during the reunion, but his later total disregard of keeping things hidden from her speaks that he didn't really respect his own preconcieved boundaries.

Well, what you say nevertheless points to the fact that the case of Ennis is never simple.  I don't think he really knew what he wanted, up until it was too late.

I think there are two separate reasons for Ennis' behavior.

There is the conscious awareness of boundaries, which is what prompted all the accusations of paranoia of keeping things secret.

The is the unconscious need and love for Jack, which made Ennis dizzy and excited and totally ill-equipped to lie to Alma, which he was never good at in the first place. Fact is, when Jack comes to Ennis' house, it's harder to lie about it. And Jack, after all, is better at convincing people of his dreams. No offense intended.

So, it is not a matter of Ennis misleading Jack, who after all said and done, was the one who sent the postcard, the one who drove fourteen hours redlining to Riverton, the one who insists on more. Jack could choose at anytime to move on. What is admirable about his love for Ennis is that despite never enough time, never enough...he held on, for twenty years. I could also relate to Jack in that respect, because I was in a relationship that I held on for a long time when I should have let go. It is not easy to do, to held on or to let go. Either choice is difficult, and neither is desirable. But in the end, I let go for my own sake. It was selfish, but also self-preservation because the other person was doing drugs, and would not change. At some point, there has to be boundaries. As Dr. Phil says, there are deal-breakers in a relationship. Drugs, emotional or physical abuse, ... Ennis was not doing any of that. If anything, and I know I will get flak for this, Jack was the one who introduced alcohol, and pot into the relationship. Anyway, I am letting my bias show here. To me, Ennis is always the voiceless man who needed, yearned for love and affection, hiding behind walls, leaning against walls like wanting to disappear into them. He wasn't giving mixed signals. He was confused. It took the force of nature to shine light into has fortress, to bring the man out from behind the walls, to free his soul from the chains and bonds that kept him alone all those years.

[tpe]

I think there are two separate reasons for Ennis' behavior.

There is the conscious awareness of boundaries, which is what prompted all the accusations of paranoia of keeping things secret.

The is the unconscious need and love for Jack, which made Ennis dizzy and excited and totally ill-equipped to lie to Alma, which he was never good at in the first place. Fact is, when Jack comes to Ennis' house, it's harder to lie about it. And Jack, after all, is better at convincing people of his dreams. No offense intended.

So, it is not a matter of Ennis misleading Jack, who after all said and done, was the one who sent the postcard, the one who drove fourteen hours redlining to Riverton, the one who insists on more. Jack could choose at anytime to move on. What is admirable about his love for Ennis is that despite never enough time, never enough...he held on, for twenty years. I could also relate to Jack in that respect, because I was in a relationship that I held on for a long time when I should have let go. It is not easy to do, to held on or to let go. Either choice is difficult, and neither is desirable. But in the end, I let go for my own sake. It was selfish, but also self-preservation because the other person was doing drugs, and would not change. At some point, there has to be boundaries. As Dr. Phil says, there are deal-breakers in a relationship. Drugs, emotional or physical abuse, ... Ennis was not doing any of that. If anything, and I know I will get flak for this, Jack was the one who introduced alcohol, and pot into the relationship. Anyway, I am letting my bias show here. To me, Ennis is always the voiceless man who needed, yearned for love and affection, hiding behind walls, leaning against walls like wanting to disappear into them. He wasn't giving mixed signals. He was confused. It took the force of nature to shine light into has fortress, to bring the man out from behind the walls, to free his soul from the chains and bonds that kept him alone all those years.

lance, all opinions are somewhat biased anyway, so no need to fear here about how you truly feel and see things.

I accept your viewpoint as just as valid as mine.    I do agree with you that much of this stems from internal confusion, and not malice.

[aintfoolin]

I think there are two separate reasons for Ennis' behavior.

There is the conscious awareness of boundaries, which is what prompted all the accusations of paranoia of keeping things secret.

The is the unconscious need and love for Jack, which made Ennis dizzy and excited and totally ill-equipped to lie to Alma, which he was never good at in the first place. Fact is, when Jack comes to Ennis' house, it's harder to lie about it. And Jack, after all, is better at convincing people of his dreams. No offense intended.

So, it is not a matter of Ennis misleading Jack, who after all said and done, was the one who sent the postcard, the one who drove fourteen hours redlining to Riverton, the one who insists on more. Jack could choose at anytime to move on. What is admirable about his love for Ennis is that despite never enough time, never enough...he held on, for twenty years. I could also relate to Jack in that respect, because I was in a relationship that I held on for a long time when I should have let go. It is not easy to do, to held on or to let go. Either choice is difficult, and neither is desirable. But in the end, I let go for my own sake. It was selfish, but also self-preservation because the other person was doing drugs, and would not change. At some point, there has to be boundaries. As Dr. Phil says, there are deal-breakers in a relationship. Drugs, emotional or physical abuse, ... Ennis was not doing any of that. If anything, and I know I will get flak for this, Jack was the one who introduced alcohol, and pot into the relationship. Anyway, I am letting my bias show here. To me, Ennis is always the voiceless man who needed, yearned for love and affection, hiding behind walls, leaning against walls like wanting to disappear into them. He wasn't giving mixed signals. He was confused. It took the force of nature to shine light into has fortress, to bring the man out from behind the walls, to free his soul from the chains and bonds that kept him alone all those years.

I see within those boundaries there was a consious awareness of his actions also. His actions were of such that he knew how to swing this thing not only to his favor by laying down the rules of where they will meet and when. He was the one with the excuses, his fam, his jobs, though some of these where legit, but like MG said Jack knew Ennis well ALMOST had him figured but he basically  knew  Ennis's thought processes, him being the only witness to Ennis "transformation" on BBM.  his actions suggestive only , but he said and did enough to let Ennis know what the deal was. Jack loved him.  He knew that whatever confusion or conflict Ennis found himself in, he was the key, and the one who for the moments they were together Ennis could let go and be himself....Ennis knew it too, imo. but take the reunion scene for instance and there are others though this being one of the most obvious.

 From the moment Alma informs him that a postcard from Jack had arrived.  He is faced with the choice of answering or not answering. He immediatley and conciously lies to Alma. He answers  "you bet. Those two little words to Jack says {"Yes I want to see you.}" {" I welcome you."} , the reception he got ,lead Jack to believe that there was going to more in the future.  maybe he was'nt saying it verbally but Jack's hopes are up by the actions. The divorce scene, Ennis informs Jack , not the opposite, again leading Jack to believe one thing, and lets him down. He enjoys being with Jack, sexual aspects included but, it went much deeper for Ennis than that, as long as the affair is in secret. Then there's the talk following the motel scene by the river where Jack makes a proposition to ranch up with him. Willing to leave his marriage behind? Ennis had to know that Jack meant serious business. Knew what Jack was suggesting and all that entails. This he was not ready to do. To be defy society and  his fears live his true feelings.

 This did not lessen his need or desire for Jack, but I still feel he was making consious choices to conceal the affair in order to continue seeing Jack. Yeah, he said there was no reins on this one, but that is imo regarding his undeniable feelings he had and not seeing them dissipating any time soon, a lesson being learned after 4 years. His conflict benefitted from the "arrangment, not Jack's desire.  Everytime they made love there is a concious decision made on both parts. I did'nt see him  hesitant about meeting Jack either,in fact the opposite. regardless of how Alma percieved him.  In the Thanksgiving scene it is not "how often"  he saw Jack that mattered to Alma, it was  the what and why Ennis was meeting Jack what it meant. When pressed further he defends himself and Jack, thus defending the relationship. 

 But through out the film Ennis makes many concious choices , those decicions may stem from confusion at times, but not of the fact that he loved Jack, but the  how, where, when he was gonna deal with it in the face of a closed minded society.
Not saying that Ennis took any action with malice in mind , but I do feel he  was concious of most of  his decisions, with a "that's the way it's gotta be" attitude. Jack simply lived on hope that someday Ennis would see it his way. Major rationalization and denial imo. More observations.

[lancecowboy]

I see within those boundaries there was a consious awareness of his actions also. His actions were of such that he knew how to swing this thing not only to his favor by laying down the rules of where they will meet and when. He was the one with the excuses, his fam, his jobs, though some of these where legit, but like MG said Jack knew Ennis well ALMOST had him figured but he basically  knew  Ennis's thought processes, him being the only witness to Ennis "transformation" on BBM.  his actions suggestive only , but he said and did enough to let Ennis know what the deal was. Jack loved him.  He knew that whatever confusion or conflict Ennis found himself in, he was the key, and the one who for the moments they were together Ennis could let go and be himself....Ennis knew it too, imo. but take the reunion scene for instance and there are others though this being one of the most obvious.

 From the moment Alma informs him that a postcard from Jack had arrived.  He is faced with the choice of answering or not answering. He immediatley and conciously lies to Alma. He answers  "you bet. Those two little words to Jack says {"Yes I want to see you.}" {" I welcome you."} , the reception he got ,lead Jack to believe that there was going to more in the future.  maybe he was'nt saying it verbally but Jack's hopes are up by the actions. The divorce scene, Ennis informs Jack , not the opposite, again leading Jack to believe one thing, and lets him down. He enjoys being with Jack, sexual aspects included but, it went much deeper for Ennis than that, as long as the affair is in secret. Then there's the talk following the motel scene by the river where Jack makes a proposition to ranch up with him. Willing to leave his marriage behind? Ennis had to know that Jack meant serious business. Knew what Jack was suggesting and all that entails. This he was not ready to do. To be defy society and  his fears live his true feelings.

 This did not lessen his need or desire for Jack, but I still feel he was making consious choices to conceal the affair in order to continue seeing Jack. Yeah, he said there was no reins on this one, but that is imo regarding his undeniable feelings he had and not seeing them dissipating any time soon, a lesson being learned after 4 years. His conflict benefitted from the "arrangment, not Jack's desire.  Everytime they made love there is a concious decision made on both parts. I did'nt see him  hesitant about meeting Jack either,in fact the opposite. regardless of how Alma percieved him.  In the Thanksgiving scene it is not "how often"  he saw Jack that mattered to Alma, it was  the what and why Ennis was meeting Jack what it meant. When pressed further he defends himself and Jack, thus defending the relationship. 

 But through out the film Ennis makes many concious choices , those decicions may stem from confusion at times, but not of the fact that he loved Jack, but the  how, where, when he was gonna deal with it in the face of a closed minded society.
Not saying that Ennis took any action with malice in mind , but I do feel he  was concious of most of  his decisions, with a "that's the way it's gotta be" attitude. Jack simply lived on hope that someday Ennis would see it his way. Major rationalization and denial imo. More observations.

You know aintfoolin, thank you for the long explanation. I have no excuses for Ennis. You are quite right that the reunion scene, after the huge embrace, then the passionate kisses (one from Ennis, and then one from Jack), Ennis brushed off Jack and said something like 'later'.

I am not making excuses for Ennis, but his actions during those moments were the result of four f#$%ing years of absence of yearning. I agree he was a bit rude to Jack, brushing him off, but Ennis was also the practical one, and he knew they could not do it right there on the stairs, which is what they'd probably do if given the choice. Yes, he was rude and abrupt with Jack at that moment.

You said he made conscious choices, and you are right. But many of our conscious choices are influenced by our subconscious feelings. Consider Ennis jumping up to the apartment to get his gear ready for the trip to the Mountain. He was as excited as can be. Alma, even without knowing the truth, would find it odd for her husband to be so excited. Was that a conscious choice on Ennis' part to be so excited? I don't think so. He was simply expressing his feelings in the few way possible to him, a man of limited vocabulary and simple needs.

[aintfoolin]

 I don't see it as Ennis being rude during that particular moment at all, don't think Jack saw it that way either. They have just reunited, and things were getting out of hand, in the street outside., but there'a problem, Alma is expecting him to bring Jack up for introduction.  Ennis was aware of that much. His "later " comment, imo was telling Jack that there would be more later, but right now we have to deal with Alma. Well, some quick thinking and a few lies to her took care of that. Forget the little happy reunion with Jack and Alma at the Knife and Fork. That was NOT going to happen. He had to loose her.
 There were times when he was unconcious of himself when it came to Jack, for instance "he's from Texas",  (whoa! ) "Jack aint the resturant type" ( really?)  and the famous "were fishin buddies"  well,  ( the line never touched water) , all said to throw Alma off his trail. I will say the facts were there, he wanted and needed Jack and knew it within himself, his attempts to cover the facts is where the unconsious actions showed through.  unaware of how lame these excuses were and really did'nt care, It's just that way when your in love and desperate to keep the lid on things.  He could'nt help himself obviously.

His behavior during packing for trips maybe percieved as unconsiously reacting to something that excited him , made him very happy in anticipation , belying everything in him that said ( no, you can't have this,)  but it can also be seen as a concious choice to meet up in the first place.  He had anwers to all of Alma's concerns, There is no doubt imo it was Jack who was the primary  mover and shaker here, but Ennis played his part by showing up for 20 years to meet him. No doubt he was overwhelmed with joy at seeing Jack again and imo opinion he was "slipping" ,letting his  overwhelming  excitment  and happiness show in Alma's presence. Of course at the time he did'nt know Alma already knew, but I don't think he thought to much about it in terms of should I or should I not. When he had the chance to meet Jack, he made it happen. At least he was honest with himself about that. MHO.

[manhattangirl]

This exchange is great, thanks for sharing with us.  "Slipping", I love that.   Ennis to me, slipping into reality.   Ennis only became alive when Jack was there, knowing he was going to be there.   No matter how Alma tried to rein him in she couldn't.   It was not so much as avoiding Alma and Jack getting to know each other, it was that Ennis didn't want to share Jack with anyone, not even Alma.   

Jack was his, and his alone.   That's what so weird about Ennis,  even knowing Jack might have had something going on with the "Ranch foreman's wife",  he if got shot he would have deserved it.   This is  after his own divorce, Alma letting Ennis know about him and Jack, and the subject of Cassie, which we know then Ennis had no interest in, after all.   Ennis always had way of letting Jack know he belonged to him.   Why do you think Jack accused of keeping him on that short leash, there's ways of knowing that this is someone would not commit totally, but  not letting you go totally either, Jack felt this.    If Jack would have let slipped that Randall was in the picture, Ennis would have killed on the spot.  Mexico was hard for Ennis to handle, what in the heck do you think Ennis would do if he found that Jack had another lover.  This is not nice, this doesn't play in what we might like to think of Ennis, but sex, love, passion makes us do, say things we not might think ourselves capable of.  And this is relationship, that one partner felt he sacrificed his whole life for this one person, and look what he does to me.  This kind of passion, fear, love, anger, frustration could run through us all, we hurt we want someone else to hurt.

Jack was smarter than that.  He knew what he Ennis could deal with, and when to pull back.  Ennis had only one real love in his life, his first and only love .   The thought of letting Jack go never and would have entered his mind.  It was only when he thought Jack could quit him is when he brokedown.   Jack was his existence, the center of his life.   

[lancecowboy]

This exchange is great, thanks for sharing with us.  "Slipping", I love that.   Ennis to me, slipping into reality.   Ennis only became alive when Jack was there, knowing he was going to be there.   No matter how Alma tried to rein him in she couldn't.   It was not so much as avoiding Alma and Jack getting to know each other, it was that Ennis didn't want to share Jack with anyone, not even Alma.   

Jack was his, and his alone.   That's what so weird about Ennis,  even knowing Jack might have had something going on with the "Ranch foreman's wife",  he if got shot he would have deserved it.   This is  after his own divorce, Alma letting Ennis know about him and Jack, and the subject of Cassie, which we know then Ennis had no interest in, after all.   Ennis always had way of letting Jack know he belonged to him.   Why do you think Jack accused of keeping him on that short leash, there's ways of knowing that this is someone would not commit totally, but  not letting you go totally either, Jack felt this.    If Jack would have let slipped that Randall was in the picture, Ennis would have killed on the spot.  Mexico was hard for Ennis to handle, what in the heck do you think Ennis would do if he found that Jack had another lover.  This is not nice, this doesn't play in what we might like to think of Ennis, but sex, love, passion makes us do, say things we not might think ourselves capable of.  And this is relationship, that one partner felt he sacrificed his whole life for this one person, and look what he does to me.  This kind of passion, fear, love, anger, frustration could run through us all, we hurt we want someone else to hurt.

Jack was smarter than that.  He knew what he Ennis could deal with, and when to pull back.  Ennis had only one real love in his life, his first and only love .   The thought of letting Jack go never and would have entered his mind.  It was only when he thought Jack could quit him is when he brokedown.   Jack was his existence, the center of his life.   

Yeah, this is great. It's getting past the honeymoon phase of Brokeback Mountain when it is not just romance any more, but real.

Yes, I caught the little hesitation on Jack's part, just before he said Ranchers' wife. He almost wanted to say, Truth is, I found this other man... Kill him on the spot? That's pretty harsh, but certainly angry...and Ennis can be very ugly when he is angry.

Yup, what you said, and I bolded in red. It's Ennis to the core, and Jack knew it, and loved it. Ennis may have Jack on a short leash, but Jack had Ennis by the gonads, too. And they both knew this about each other. Who had the power in this relationship?

[aintfoolin]

Yeah, this is great. It's getting past the honeymoon phase of Brokeback Mountain when it is not just romance any more, but real.

Yes, I caught the little hesitation on Jack's part, just before he said Ranchers' wife. He almost wanted to say, Truth is, I found this other man... Kill him on the spot? That's pretty harsh, but certainly angry...and Ennis can be very ugly when he is angry.

Yup, what you said, and I bolded in red. It's Ennis to the core, and Jack knew it, and loved it. Ennis may have Jack on a short leash, but Jack had Ennis by the gonads, too. And they both knew this about each other. Who had the power in this relationship?

 

I think that they both played a part in creating  the love they shared . Love was the power here, equal in it's hold on them both. Jack was trying to quit, but could'nt, Ennis did'nt  want him to.

[aintfoolin]

     I got this idea from the donnie darko thread someone said they wanted to make a observation but it wasnt worth starting a new thread.cant remember who said it .

  So i thought it might be a idea to do that here something you observed in the film but doesnt warrant a whole new thread . What do you all think?

          I have quite a few but i will start with three.
              Have you noticed how jack and ennis have progressed from sitting on logs in 1963 and 1967
                to folding chairs at their last meeting      


        The fly on ennis.s right cheek when he is standing face to face with jack in the confrontation scene.

             After the FNIT in the morning  jack comes out of the tent that is the only time throughout the whole film that jack HAS NOT got his shirt tucked in his jeans. hmm

            

Jack doing laundry in the nude...except for his boots.

Ennis telling Alma "we might not get back tonight" "We get to drinkin and talkin an all" ...never occured to Ennis, Alma might question * this is gonna take all night? Where?

Ennis has killed two cyote by the time Jack meets him in the pasture after FNIT and has them displayed on  some kind of a pole A warning to other predators? or perhaps Ennis felt it symbolic of ones who would do him and Jack harm, after inspecting the dead sheep following FNIT.Maybe he thought of Earl and Rich.

 Ennis always has the mule, Jack is always the lead horse.

 Those wonderful dogs.
Just a few observations I've pondered over.

[tpe]

Jack doing laundry in the nude...except for his boots.

Ennis telling Alma "we might not get back tonight" "We get to drinkin and talkin an all" ...never occured to Ennis, Alma might question * this is gonna take all night? Where?

Ennis has killed two cyote by the time Jack meets him in the pasture after FNIT and has them displayed on  some kind of a pole A warning to other predators? or perhaps Ennis felt it symbolic of ones who would do him and Jack harm, after inspecting the dead sheep following FNIT.Maybe he thought of Earl and Rich.

 Ennis always has the mule, Jack is always the lead horse.

 Those wonderful dogs.
Just a few observations I've pondered over.

Wonderful, AF.  As for the final one -- I suppose you look at this metaphorically, and not just because Ennis was responsible for the baggage train.

[babytammy7]

Wonderful, AF.  As for the final one -- I suppose you look at this metaphorically, and not just because Ennis was responsible for the baggage train.

Hey Thomas, that's REAL!!! I mean, yeah Ennis was the stubborn one and Jack lead the relationship, but Ennis REALLY had the mule in all the scenes up in BBM where the mule showed, and Jack was always the first wherever they were going to go, he had the lead horse!!

Amazing post AF!! I never noticed what you said about the coyotes!! 

Thank you so much!!

[aintfoolin]

Hey Thomas, that's REAL!!! I mean, yeah Ennis was the stubborn one and Jack lead the relationship, but Ennis REALLY had the mule in all the scenes up in BBM where the mule showed, and Jack was always the first wherever they were going to go, he had the lead horse!!

Amazing post AF!! I never noticed what you said about the coyotes!! 

Thank you so much!!

Thanks tpe and Baby Tammy, your right, the mule had nothing on Ennis.  :c)The baggage  carrier, in more ways than one. Once he made his mind up about something, he did'nt budge.

[tpe]

Thanks Tammy and AF.  Yes, I agree that it is much more than that.  On the walk to the bar, for instance, we see Ennis walking behind Jack, and in the famous (production) pic of both of them on horseback (probably from the scene with the Chilean shepherds), we see Jack leaning forward, and Ennis set back...

[myprivatejack]

Thanks tpe and Baby Tammy, your right, the mule had nothing on Ennis.  :c)The baggage  carrier, in more ways than one. Once he made his mind up about something, he did'nt budge.

I agree with all what you've said,boys¡As regards to this definition of "the baggage carrier",could we say that Ennis,as the mules themselves,always was carrying a burden-a baggage-with him?The one of his fears,doubts and denials?

Thanks Tammy and AF.  Yes, I agree that it is much more than that.  On the walk to the bar, for instance, we see Ennis walking behind Jack, and in the famous (production) pic of both of them on horseback (probably from the scene with the Chilean shepherds), we see Jack leaning forward, and Ennis set back...

And this also can be a metaphor,as it has been already told,for their sexual relationships and the role each one of them used to play in it.

[tpe]

I agree with all what you've said,boys¡As regards to this definition of "the baggage carrier",could we say that Ennis,as the mules themselves,always was carrying a burden-a baggage-with him?The one of his fears,doubts and denials?

And this also can be a metaphor,as it has been already told,for their sexual relationships and the role each one of them used to play in it.

I agree.  It is remarkable how consistent the little details tie in with the characterization of Ennis and Jack.  Splendid.

[aintfoolin]

The horses on Brokeback saw and heard everything.

I love the scenes with Ennis and the basque. A hesitent Ennis hands the supply list to the basque  probably hoping the basque did'nt remember him  saying he did'nt eat soup or at least not say anything. Of course the basques's first words were " I thought you did'nt eat soup?". Ennis knows he's doing it for Jack.The basque dosen't.

[tpe]

The horses on Brokeback saw and heard everything.

I love the scenes with Ennis and the basque. A hesitent Ennis hands the supply list to the basque  probably hoping the basque did'nt remember him  saying he did'nt eat soup or at least not say anything. Of course the basques's first words were " I thought you did'nt eat soup?". Ennis knows he's doing it for Jack.The basque dosen't.

The Basque is a curious character, seemingly out of sympathy with the 2 protagonists.  One feels that he is an extension of Aguirre's power over them...

[atalley]

I might be wrong, but I thought the guy was to bring light hearted humor.  Also, this let us know that Ennis was doing everything in his power to make Jack happy.  I kinda' liked him.  

[tpe]

I might be wrong, but I thought the guy was to bring light hearted humor.  Also, this let us know that Ennis was doing everything in his power to make Jack happy.  I kinda' liked him.  

Interesting POV, atalley.  I admit that I never really thought of it this way.  I did love the character, but I somehow read it to be more surly, more unsympathetic...

[rimasworld]

Interesting POV, atalley.  I admit that I never really thought of it this way.  I did love the character, but I somehow read it to be more surly, more unsympathetic...

hmmm well I find myself concentrating on Ennis (who can blame me)? but I kind of find this scene cute from start to finish how Ennis acts. It's a scene that makes me smile  I'll try to watch the other guy more next time to form my opinion on him