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Author Topic: How do you see Jack?  (Read 92908 times)

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #60 on: Oct 30, 2007, 01:04 PM »
This is an aspect in Jack life I have not thought about before:the possibility of being somehow, a bad father,or at least,nor so good as he should be.I believe all of you  are right,because he seems to care for Boby in very few aspects during the movie and also in the SS.But if he had broken his marriage,does it mean that he would not care for his child future?IMO this has nothing to do with wishing a new life with a person who is not Bobby mother...If we do not see more affection demonstrations to his son I suppose it is because Jack family,marriage and fatherhod,are not so definitive in the story development as is the ones from Ennis;who,by the way and as tpe says very well,uses often his undeniable love for his girls as a shield to protect him against taking some kind of responsability and,much more still,taking a decision about living or not with Jack.We all know how his fears and doubts ponder sometimes fairly more than his real love for his partner,so his familiar duties are a good excuse to avoid facing reality(although in the beguinning he used to leave the girls to be with him...a kind of fatigue over the years,maybe?);Jack played the game with all his cards,because he did not have these fears or doubts,so he need not to put Bobby as an excuse for a anything;for this reason,to show him as a bad father,or not very caring father,is a result of the game.I do not  know if this makes sense for you. :-\\
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #61 on: Oct 30, 2007, 01:30 PM »
I think I understand, mpj. And you're right that Ennis uses his girls as an excuse, which is not to say he doesn't love them (I think they both love their kids. But in the era and culture they grew up in, not to mention their less than warm home environments, they were typically non-demonstrative about it).

In the ss, after the Thanksgiving spat with Alma, it says:

"He didn't try to see his girls for a long time, figuring they would look him up when they got the sense and years to move out from Alma."

So the story doesn't show either one as great father figures, although it doesn't show them as any worse than many of their contemporaries, either. In any case, Ennis's kids were clearly not the reason he wouldn't/couldn't be with Jack. Jack simply never pretended that Bobby would be a reason not to make a life with Ennis. What amount of involvement either of them would have had with their kids if they did get together, we'll never know, because that never happened. Hmm, makes for interesting speculation though.
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

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Offline ayasha

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #62 on: Oct 30, 2007, 01:46 PM »
Quote from: myprivatejack on Oct 30, 2007, 01:04 PM
(...)Ennis;who,by the way and as tpe says very well,uses often his undeniable love for his girls as a shield to protect him against taking some kind of responsability and,much more still,taking a decision about living or not with Jack.We all know how his fears and doubts ponder sometimes fairly more than his real love for his partner,so his familiar duties are a good excuse to avoid facing reality(although in the beguinning he used to leave the girls to be with him...a kind of fatigue over the years,maybe?)

Quote from: FlwrChild on Oct 30, 2007, 01:30 PM
I think I understand, mpj. And you're right that Ennis uses his girls as an excuse, which is not to say he doesn't love them (I think they both love their kids. But in the era and culture they grew up in, not to mention their less than warm home environments, they were typically non-demonstrative about it).


I've always thought Ennis (and Ennis type people like myself) being his own worst enemy always using the same pattern: The circumstances are not good now, but when things go better, when I've got more time, when children are grown, when I've got money enough...then I'll do it for sure, then I'll start to live. But the circumstances are never enough good. That it's the 'living in a perfect future' trap. I know what I'm talking about. John Lennon said once 'Life is what happens while we make other plans' (my traslation, probably not really accurate) But you clever people know what I mean  :\'(


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"And then the day came,
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Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #63 on: Oct 30, 2007, 01:55 PM »
I know just what you mean, ayashae. And while Ennis was willing to keep his head down and wait for a someday that might offer better choices, Jack wanted to go after that sweet life now. I have to think, in light of how young he died, that his was the better approach to life in that regard.

But then, I'm a Jack personality in that respect as well, and have had that same argument with my own Ennis, so I might be a little biased here. ::)
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline ayasha

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #64 on: Oct 30, 2007, 02:10 PM »
Quote from: FlwrChild on Oct 30, 2007, 01:55 PM
I know just what you mean, ayashae. And while Ennis was willing to keep his head down and wait for a someday that might offer better choices, Jack wanted to go after that sweet life now. I have to think, in light of how young he died, that his was the better approach to life in that regard.

But then, I'm a Jack personality in that respect as well, and have had that same argument with my own Ennis, so I might be a little biased here. ::)

I'm Ennis personality and no, you aren't biased!  %(  We can only live the present, it's the only sane option. Tell your Ennis from another Ennis ;)
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"And then the day came,
when the risk
to remain tight
in a bud
was more painful
than the risk
it took to blossom"

Anaïs Nin

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #65 on: Oct 30, 2007, 02:11 PM »
Thanks. I'll give that a try. :)
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #66 on: Oct 30, 2007, 06:56 PM »
Quote from: manhattangirl on Oct 30, 2007, 05:29 AM
You bring up a good point, (again as always), he didn't invite Jack to join him and the girls, but he bring Cassie with him when spending time with Alma, jr.  without thinking or having a clue that this was more disturbing to his daugther than sitting in the same "bar" with Jack.   Alma,Jr. sees Cassie as competition for her father's attention, I mean the girl did know her father wasn't the marrying kind.  On the same respect I think Ennis was hung up being so close to Jack even in public, that Ennis was afraid more of himself, and the control he might loose being so close to Jack, that Brokeback was the only place he could be with Jack without that fear of loosing self control.   The way Ennis looked, it was as if  he thought that there was a running banner saying: HEY WE'RE LOVERS

Because of Ennis inability for self control when it came to Jack,  it was just easier for him to for him to send him away, and keep Jack at a safe distance, but this caused  Jack great pain and misunderstanding.

Just my thoughts.

I think he only asked Cassie to join him with Alma Jr, only after knowing her for a while. Also, Jack never gave Ennis a chance. He took off like a rocket, with only "see you next month, then".

It's not Ennis' fault in that particular instance. I do admit that you are quite right, about Ennis having no self-control when it comes to Jack, so his solution was to avoid being in public. This was the tragedy, when their love must be hidden. As it says in the short story, Ennis wondered what other people do, if they go to Denver or other big city. Being who they were, moving to big cities were not an option.  :( Sorry, PBS coming since last night. I guess I will just have to work it out.
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #67 on: Oct 30, 2007, 07:00 PM »
Quote from: tpe on Oct 30, 2007, 07:20 AM
Jack's ambivalence to family in the face of his relationship with Ennis is something worth looking into a bit more.  It did appear that he was an attentive and (to a point) loving father, and even to the very last, he kept civility with Lureen.  And yet it was clear that through all those years, his heart lay elsewhere.

It seemed to me that he was willing to sacrifice family to be with Ennis -- something that Ennis was not ready for.  IMO, I think Ennis used family partly as an excuse to keep a distance from Jack.  IN some ways, Jack was perhaps more honest with himself, because I have no doubt about what Ennis really wanted for himself, and yet something inside him tried to deny himself that very thing.

I agree with you that Jack was more honest with himself, than Ennis had been. But I also think it was not necessary for them to choose between each other and family. In those days, and today, with the high divorce rates, even straight people leave their family and still have loving relationships with the children. I agree with you that Ennis had been using his family merely as an excuse, for himself, and to Jack.
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #68 on: Oct 30, 2007, 07:06 PM »
Quote from: myprivatejack on Oct 30, 2007, 01:04 PM
This is an aspect in Jack life I have not thought about before:the possibility of being somehow, a bad father,or at least,nor so good as he should be.I believe all of you  are right,because he seems to care for Boby in very few aspects during the movie and also in the SS.But if he had broken his marriage,does it mean that he would not care for his child future?IMO this has nothing to do with wishing a new life with a person who is not Bobby mother...If we do not see more affection demonstrations to his son I suppose it is because Jack family,marriage and fatherhod,are not so definitive in the story development as is the ones from Ennis;who,by the way and as tpe says very well,uses often his undeniable love for his girls as a shield to protect him against taking some kind of responsability and,much more still,taking a decision about living or not with Jack.We all know how his fears and doubts ponder sometimes fairly more than his real love for his partner,so his familiar duties are a good excuse to avoid facing reality(although in the beguinning he used to leave the girls to be with him...a kind of fatigue over the years,maybe?);Jack played the game with all his cards,because he did not have these fears or doubts,so he need not to put Bobby as an excuse for a anything;for this reason,to show him as a bad father,or not very caring father,is a result of the game.I do not  know if this makes sense for you. :-\\
No worries, LJN, I understand where you are coming from. I don't see Jack as a bad father. I think he is simply preoccupied with Ennis, and drinking too much, to have time and energy for anything else, especially after the crushing rejection (at least in his own mind) in the divorce scene. I think Jack does not like the responsibility of taking care of children, but he makes a great father in the sense that he can relate to them on their level, as friends, playmates. That's what he is to Ennis. He loves little animals, and care for them. He is just not good with long term responsibilities, like Ennis is. I think Jack would have been a great father if he and Ennis were married, just like after his reunion, he taught Bobby to drive, etc. He was happy and ready to share the happiness.
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Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #69 on: Oct 30, 2007, 07:40 PM »
Hmm, I have to admit that I don't see Jack that way at all. The fact that he was willing to leave his family for Ennis doesn't mean that he was in any way an uninvolved father while he was there. I would say the movie made a concerted effort to carry over the image of his parenting that was presented in the original story, by showing his concern for Bobby's reading difficulties. He was, if anything, more in tune to his son's needs than Lureen. In the movie, they made it seem like she was preoccupied with business, in the book it was because she didn't want to admit he had a problem. In either case, I see no evidence that Jack balked at any of his long term responsibilities, just that he would have set some of them aside to be with Ennis. Since Ennis wasn't able to do that, Jack stuck it out too. In fact, regardless of what he might have been doing on the side, he stayed married to Lureen right up to his death.

And yes, you're right. It is made clear in both the ss and the movie that Jack was drinking a lot in later years. My guess would be that this was related to his discontent over the situation with Ennis.
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #70 on: Oct 30, 2007, 08:26 PM »
Quote from: FlwrChild on Oct 30, 2007, 07:40 PM
Hmm, I have to admit that I don't see Jack that way at all. The fact that he was willing to leave his family for Ennis doesn't mean that he was in any way an uninvolved father while he was there. I would say the movie made a concerted effort to carry over the image of his parenting that was presented in the original story, by showing his concern for Bobby's reading difficulties. He was, if anything, more in tune to his son's needs than Lureen. In the movie, they made it seem like she was preoccupied with business, in the book it was because she didn't want to admit he had a problem. In either case, I see no evidence that Jack balked at any of his long term responsibilities, just that he would have set some of them aside to be with Ennis. Since Ennis wasn't able to do that, Jack stuck it out too. In fact, regardless of what he might have been doing on the side, he stayed married to Lureen right up to his death.

And yes, you're right. It is made clear in both the ss and the movie that Jack was drinking a lot in later years. My guess would be that this was related to his discontent over the situation with Ennis.

I totally agree with you. Ennis was also drinking a lot towards the end, witness the scene when he met Cassie, and also when they were sitting by the river, taking a toke. Their relationship was dysfunctional towards the end, IMO, due to all the strains and stress, from Ennis' financial trouble and divorce, to Jack's inability to achieve his dream(s). It reminds me of my own drunken days. Not very pretty, and totally sad.  :\'( I think Ennis, by the end of the movie, when Alma jr was visiting, went on the wagon. He had half a bottom of white wine in the fridge. A drunk would never have that. He also looked healthier, too, taking care of himself, and the trailer, putting up the numbers on the mailbox, etc. I got the feeling that he was finally content with his lot in life.

Jack was never happy, never content with the present, always want more. It is good in one way, but also not so good when it drove him to drink. Ennis and Jack are perfect together because the two balanced each other so perfectly. Ennis was the anchor to Jack's dreams.
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manhattangirl

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #71 on: Oct 31, 2007, 05:41 AM »
Quote from: lancecowboy2007 on Oct 30, 2007, 08:26 PM
I totally agree with you. Ennis was also drinking a lot towards the end, witness the scene when he met Cassie, and also when they were sitting by the river, taking a toke. Their relationship was dysfunctional towards the end, IMO, due to all the strains and stress, from Ennis' financial trouble and divorce, to Jack's inability to achieve his dream(s). It reminds me of my own drunken days. Not very pretty, and totally sad.  :\'( I think Ennis, by the end of the movie, when Alma jr was visiting, went on the wagon. He had half a bottom of white wine in the fridge. A drunk would never have that. He also looked healthier, too, taking care of himself, and the trailer, putting up the numbers on the mailbox, etc. I got the feeling that he was finally content with his lot in life.

Jack was never happy, never content with the present, always want more. It is good in one way, but also not so good when it drove him to drink. Ennis and Jack are perfect together because the two balanced each other so perfectly. Ennis was the anchor to Jack's dreams.

Lureen related to Ennis that Brokeback was the place where he was happy.  He was drinking more towards the end, true.  When he told Ennis, "What we got now is Brokeback Mountain, that's all we got", I believe,  Jack knew that all it'll be.  The dream was over.   Brokeback was where he was his happiest, and try to come to terms there'll be nothing more. 
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Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #72 on: Oct 31, 2007, 07:23 AM »
Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Oct 30, 2007, 11:27 AM
That is the one thing that I don't like about Jack- that he was willing to leave his son. He did care as evidenced briefly in the SS and movie, so I don't think he was a bad father but as you said- his heart lay elsewhere. I agree though that Jack was honest with himself in that regard.

I think of it mirrors the words of the gospel: about the love that is greater all all other loves:

Et omnis qui reliquit domum vel fratres aut sorores aut patrem aut matrem aut uxorem aut filios aut agros propter nomen meum centuplum accipiet et vitam aeternam possidebit [And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life]

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Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #73 on: Oct 31, 2007, 07:28 AM »
Quote from: ayashae on Oct 30, 2007, 12:24 PM
I thought the same when I saw the movie CSC...We can see Ennis as a good dad, who sincerely loves his daughters and shows concern and affection towards them despite his introspected personality. But I don't see it as clear as regards Jack and Bobby. I remember only one scene where Jack is 'teaching' Bobby to drive a truck, laughing and playing with him. Do you think Bobby is a 'secondary love' for Jack or is it only that the story doesn't focus in this relationship? Could it be that Jack actually never wanted to have children that's why he wasn't a devoted father?

Jack is such a warm loving person, and there are many scenes we can see him showing affection to Ennis, but not to his kid (except the scene I mentioned) I guess we can't see this point in the movie, since Jack and Bobby's relationship wasn't important for the main plot of the story

It is interesting that I seem to take a different slant on things here, because I always had the feeling that Ennis used his family as an excuse to justify his fears of not wanting to take a leap and share a life with the person he loved the most.

I think Jack and Ennis loved and care for their children, but I think both felt that their love for each other overrode everything else, including this.  But I think Jack was more honest and forthcoming about his desires, and Ennis had to struggle with his own inner fears.

 
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Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #74 on: Oct 31, 2007, 07:33 AM »
I just read the posts at the top of this page and realize that they reflect some of what I said in my previous post...

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Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #75 on: Oct 31, 2007, 07:37 AM »
That's ok. It bears repeating. :)
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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #76 on: Nov 19, 2007, 05:21 AM »
 Great posts

 A part of Jack is very nurturing, we see it with his son in the tractor, interacting and having fun. Showed frustrated  concern for his son's problem in school, I feel  in order to really know how Jack felt about his son , the relationship between them needed to  be explored more.

 Both Jack and Lureen appeared to be involved in running a successful business+ Jack was pre-occupied with his love for Ennis. Problems with LD who probably influenced the  boy through the years.  Jack felt like an outsider in Childress, and I don't feel a proper bond was fully reached with Bobby. This would explain his willingly to leave them and get with Ennis  if he'd have him 
 LD,  apparently at some point attemtped to "buy" Jack out of the family, to leave, and Jack was actually considering it, if he could have Ennis. By the time the "older" Jack appeared, Bobby had also grown into a young man. I would be interested to know how their relationship was then, but that was not developed in the movie.
 He never spoke of him , except in the reunion scene when Bobby was 8 mos. old. Perhaps he saw himself as some one seperate ,and apart ,from his family in Childress. He and Ennis were on one side, his family on the other. Two seperate realites ,as Ennis had. They were so emotionally bonded  together, that niether could commit fully to any other relationship, and feel as complete within themselves. 2 cents.
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Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #77 on: Nov 19, 2007, 08:20 AM »
Quote from: aintfoolin on Nov 19, 2007, 05:21 AM
Great posts

 A part of Jack is very nurturing, we see it with his son in the tractor, interacting and having fun. Showed frustrated  concern for his son's problem in school, I feel  in order to really know how Jack felt about his son , the relationship between them needed to  be explored more.

 Both Jack and Lureen appeared to be involved in running a successful business+ Jack was pre-occupied with his love for Ennis. Problems with LD who probably influenced the  boy through the years.  Jack felt like an outsider in Childress, and I don't feel a proper bond was fully reached with Bobby. This would explain his willingly to leave them and get with Ennis  if he'd have him 
 LD,  apparently at some point attemtped to "buy" Jack out of the family, to leave, and Jack was actually considering it, if he could have Ennis. By the time the "older" Jack appeared, Bobby had also grown into a young man. I would be interested to know how their relationship was then, but that was not developed in the movie.
 He never spoke of him , except in the reunion scene when Bobby was 8 mos. old. Perhaps he saw himself as some one seperate ,and apart ,from his family in Childress. He and Ennis were on one side, his family on the other. Two seperate realites ,as Ennis had. They were so emotionally bonded  together, that niether could commit fully to any other relationship, and feel as complete within themselves. 2 cents.

I agree that the scenes with Jack and Bobby show a nurturing part of him, even if jack largely remained an outsider in his own family.

I am also curious to know whether Bobby drifted more to Lureen and the other member of her family as the years went by.  Sound a bit unlikely, given Lureen's disinterest in everything but the family business.  But I wonder whether Bobby got to thinking of his father as loving, but weak.  Perhaps Bobby too considered himself an outsider in his own family...

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Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #78 on: Feb 19, 2008, 07:15 PM »
i like jack think he's great in fact he has a soul of gold and the only thing he did wrong by me in the film was sleep with the mexican guy and even thast was understandable as i beleave he was just trying to be reminded of ennis. both characters had minor faultsd like ennis' devotion to work over love. i took a character test and came out as jack which i felt good about. i am very much his straight counterpart but in someways im more like ennis btw i look like neither of these people. unfortunately i might not be gay but trust me i can tell i would have a much easier time getting myself a girlfriend if i looked like either of them lol. basically i think jack isnt as synical as ennis and that he accepted there love much more openly.
« Last Edit: Mar 06, 2008, 11:54 AM by zankou1991 »
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #79 on: Feb 20, 2008, 07:47 AM »
Basically,I see Jack as a dreamer-the romantic,idealistic side of him-but a fighter at the same time-his realistic side-.He was fighting all his life for living it as he wanted to in a social and religious environment that wasn't the most suitable.He had his faults and mistakes-human,at last¡-,but,as you Zankou say,he accepted their love much more openly.And we must recognise that if it had been more Ennises and less Jacks along the years and generations,all of us wouldn't be here speaking about same sex couples rights. :)
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

manhattangirl

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #80 on: Feb 20, 2008, 08:21 AM »
Jack was what Ennis wanted to be, but feared.  He couldn't let go of Jack because Jack was the reason for him living.  If wasn't for Jack Ennis would have never known what life was, in all its pain and pleasure.  He wouldn't have love, real love the giving kind.  Sex and it the meaning of being one with someone.  Ennis lived in a black and white world, with its rules, its duties and obligations, but Jack try to show him the difference of just existing, and living an actual life.  Ennis almost had it. 
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Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #81 on: Feb 20, 2008, 09:02 AM »
Revisiting this thread, I have come to appreciate over time Jack's brokenness -- his being more approachable because he wasn't perfect.

I think this was something that Ennis learned from Jack in the end -- that it was OK to be vulnerable, especially to oneself.  It made Ennis more human, even if it put him into the depths of despair.  It is during such moments that we are moved.



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Offline FlwrChild

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #82 on: Feb 22, 2008, 02:44 PM »
Wonderful posts everyone. :) I could quote them all.


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For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #83 on: Mar 04, 2008, 07:45 AM »
Quote from: tpe on Feb 20, 2008, 09:02 AM
Revisiting this thread, I have come to appreciate over time Jack's brokenness -- his being more approachable because he wasn't perfect.

I think this was something that Ennis learned from Jack in the end -- that it was OK to be vulnerable, especially to oneself.  It made Ennis more human, even if it put him into the depths of despair.  It is during such moments that we are moved.





Beautifully said Tpe,

 They were both pretty basic in their wants and needs and had a hard time even acheiving that, Ennis's personality being stoicism and orderly but had shame, Jack's open and bold. and proud,  He took chances, Ennis did not. both showed the  very human qualities inside, to each other which balanced it all out. My take.
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..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #84 on: Mar 04, 2008, 07:48 AM »
Quote from: aintfoolin on Mar 04, 2008, 07:45 AM
Beautifully said Tpe,

 They were both pretty basic in their wants and needs and had a hard time even acheiving that, Ennis's personality being stoicism and orderly but had shame, Jack's open and bold. and proud,  He took chances, Ennis did not. both showed the  very human qualities inside, to each other which balanced it all out. My take.

and what lovely take it is, im feeling so soopy right now reading all this lol its BBM is so sad and im listening to the soundtrack so that justs adds to the feeling of sadness. its a bautiful kind off melencholly sadness though beautiful because of the love they had but so sad it was wrenched from them so early.
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #85 on: Mar 04, 2008, 10:11 AM »
Quote from: aintfoolin on Mar 04, 2008, 07:45 AM
Beautifully said Tpe,

 They were both pretty basic in their wants and needs and had a hard time even acheiving that, Ennis's personality being stoicism and orderly but had shame, Jack's open and bold. and proud,  He took chances, Ennis did not. both showed the  very human qualities inside, to each other which balanced it all out. My take.

In some way,they're very different,but complementaries for this very reason.Each one of them gives the other this part of their personality the other is more lacked of.We saw in their time in BBM how Jack could give Ennis somehow the self confidence,the security in himself,first only by opening himself and being more talkative.I think Jack was a person with a rather great power of persuasion that emerged from his security in what he wished and looked for.It's such a pity that his security didn't work in order he could get the main aim in his life¡
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #86 on: Mar 05, 2008, 01:22 PM »
 This is true MPJ,

 I see Jack bringing out the humaness in Ennis. At first ,in Signal, we see Ennis as withdrawn into himself. the first days on Brokeback distant, apart, and seemingly unwilling to engage.  Who was Ennis aside from just a  co-worker?

Slowly, thru  Jack's charm and persuasion we are let in. , we see a personality emerge from Ennis. His likes and dislikes, smiles and conversation.  His future plans to marry and own a spread someday. He becomes a friend, and lover. Jack just had a way with him, read him very well, and that's not an easy task but Jack made it look easy by being easy with him. Knew when to push it, when to back off.  Made him laugh,Got Ennis talking about himself and listened with concern and friendship first. Set out to find what made this wounded man tick. (" your brother and sister do right by you?") and likewise gave Ennis a little insight into his own upbringing.  And that's all it took.

 He was the the right person, at the right time, in the perfect setting, for this love to take root. The *guiding light* into the soul of Ennis jack was. A common bond and similar background, did'nt hurt either. Before Ennis really realized what had happened, he had fallen, hook,line,and sinker. Jack was just being Jack , but Ennis related and liked what he saw and let Jack all the way in. Let Ennis be Ennis. No one had ever gotten this far, not even Alma. 20 years later, they were still in love. I adored him. <^( :c). 2 cents.
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..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #87 on: Mar 06, 2008, 10:13 AM »
Quote from: aintfoolin on Mar 04, 2008, 07:45 AM
Beautifully said Tpe,

 They were both pretty basic in their wants and needs and had a hard time even acheiving that, Ennis's personality being stoicism and orderly but had shame, Jack's open and bold. and proud,  He took chances, Ennis did not. both showed the  very human qualities inside, to each other which balanced it all out. My take.

Yes, I see Jack first and formost as the one Ennis needed, as much as Jack needed Ennis to be complete.

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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #88 on: Mar 06, 2008, 11:01 AM »
Quote from: tpe on Mar 06, 2008, 10:13 AM
Yes, I see Jack first and formost as the one Ennis needed, as much as Jack needed Ennis to be complete.


And they needed each other not only for love reasons,but because each one of them are what the other had wanted to be somehow,IMO.
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Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: How do you see Jack?
« Reply #89 on: Mar 06, 2008, 11:32 AM »
Quote from: myprivatejack on Mar 06, 2008, 11:01 AM
And they needed each other not only for love reasons,but because each one of them are what the other had wanted to be somehow,IMO.

sorry to be a pain but what does IMO mean i see it alot but dont undertstand it  %&)
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