Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[manhattangirl]

That there were no reins on their feelings is perhaps what frightens Ennis as well as the idea of what might happen to them if they lived together. Ennis likes to be in control; BBM is a sfe environment where he feels he doesn't need to be, but once off it he's back in what he sees as the real world, where real men don't express their feelings except under very special circumstances, eg on the honeymoon or with their children when they're small. Enni spends so long trying to control his relationship with Jack the one with Alma, even the one with Cassie, who (I think) also frightens him by trying to get him to loosen up.
In Bakhtin's term. Ennis has no trace of the carnivalesque;he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness. Jack isn't, and that's what both attracts him and frightens him.

This is for me,  is exactly what kept Jack on that short leash.  Jack excited Ennis, and scared the hell out of  him.  But unlike the others in Ennis's life, he couldn't let Jack go.

my thoughts.     

[Tony]

    And the winner is...."Crash"...    Remember that awful night?  When BBM wuz robbed?  Both films spoke to a theme of thinking that is
unjust.  But where is "Crash" now?  Is there a forum?  Are there "Crashies"?
    BBM is going to endure because it has more than the theme of the SS-homophobic culture, self-repression, etc.  BBM, the film, IMO,
went past the SS, and became  a more universal love story.
   FlowerChild, and most everybody else, I do need to concede that Ennis not coming to terms with his feelings for another man is central
to the tragedy, but, having done that, am trying to point out that not only is there more, the problems of ANY love (fear of love, itself),
but that that more makes the difference between Crash and BBM.
    It will always be there, the issue of Ennis struggling to come to terms with same-sex love--that's critical to the story line and the
character development.  But there's more, and that's what am trying to explore----the elements that make the love story universal and
enduring.  It's difficult territory but it's there.

  Welshwitch? I haven't heard Bakhtin's name used in over 20 years!  Am so out of it, that the last I'd heard was that Russian Lit. people
were wondering if he even existed, or was a committee of scholars.  Am embarrassed that I never kept up with what they found after the
fall of the Soviet Union.  But you have it right there, the element of the carnivalesque, as an approach to the two lovers and their differences.
Tpe and Jackster have been a great shock, with their handle on scholarly stuff.  Et tu, Welshwitch?  I THINK I need to be careful around
here, never knowing when I might get clobbered with more advanced Brokie stuff than I was prepared for.

[LuvJackNasty]

     
   But he did hide his love, or, at least, the depth of it.  He showed enough love on that mountain to break through the stone walls around
Ennis Del Mar, but he hid the shirt.  And Ennis never saw him crying, on his way to Mexico.  It's still more than mixed signals---I believe there
is that element of fearing love, or the Great Love, which could always prove to be unsafe, could always lead to rejection.

  Thanks for bringing up something that makes me understand Jack better---with all his love of life, he was always pushed off by others and
so, he saw Ennis, who really loved him, as pushing him off, too, by not going for all of his plans.

Tony, I'm assuming when you say he hid the shirt you mean up on BBM, not that it was hidden in his closet. I don't think of that as hiding his love but rather as an act of love in that he needed something tangible. As I said earlier I think that he held out hope that Ennis may have changed his mind about marrying Alma until they actually parted ways but somewhere deep down inside he knew that that would be it for them thus taking the shirt. I don't think he could have said "Hey Ennis can I take something of yours to keep with me to remember you by?" Any mention of that would have defined "this thing" and also the fear of rejection comes into play.

Now The divorce scene was a big misunderstanding- I've already elaborated on how I think Jack misunderstood Ennis's call/card. When Jack arrives he is greated with a hug and then introduced to the girls-clearly a signal that Ennis is glad to see him and the introduction probably confirmed for Jack that this was going to be it- they'd be together. It's not until Jack says he has to ask around Riverton that Ennis's whole demeanor shifts and it was there that there was NO misunderstanding for Jack that it was Ennis and his fears that were the stumbling block- not Alma, not the kids. Yes, Ennis doesn't see him cry because he got into the truck with the weight of this knowledge and left. I don't know if he held it in out of pride or if the tears didn't come until the initial shock of that knowledge actually hit him full force.

[LuvJackNasty]

This notion (and the rest of your post) is a great idea LJN. Haven't seen this exact idea pop-up anywhere else.  Might be worth it's own thread. And as Tony said, don't forget Aguirre and all the other pissants. To a lot of insecure men the only way to feel bigger is to try and make other men look smaller (the stud-duck method of personal achievment!).

I really like your idea that Ennis is the first M.A.N. that respects Jack. Ennis's unpretentious, solid masculinity is key here to this significance. When this MAN decides on his own free will to then love Jack (SNIT) Jack's heart must just melt away!

No wonder he was hooked for 20 years!!

I think we could start a thread on that- it could be interesting examining the other men in relation to the boys. And maybe even how J/E's own insecurities manifested themselves. I'll let you start it if you want since I always seem to have trouble wording the start of a topic just right.

I like what you said about the SNIT- such an emotional, beautiful and powerful scene.

[LuvJackNasty]

I think both ss and film agreed in the one essential point: that no matter what they said or claimed to be, they were in love with each other and accept it as a matter of fact when they were alone together.  The problem was in the acknowledgement of their love beyond BBM and beyond the two of them.  Jack was moving in this direction, not caring too much what the consequences of a life lived openly.  Ennis could bring a part of himself to accept his love for another man, but the problem arose when he had to acknowledge this before the wider world.  Very close to the root of this fear of exposure is Ennis's own inner homophobia.  For although this homophobia was not enough to keep Ennis from loving Jack, it inevitably became the impediment that kept Ennis from agreeing to a life together with Jack.

Exactly, Thomas.  I know the topic is to try and break away from society and and the fear of being found out but those are very huge factors, if you take them away then there is not much to stop them fromliving freely and openly. IMO, society is another character in this story- the pink elephant in the room if you will. Both the movie and SS state that Earl and Rich were "tough, old birds" so to me that shows that no matter how tough you are you can still fall victim to hatred and I think that adds yet another layer to Ennis's fears- he's shown as tough and can kick someone's butt but being tough isn't a guarantee that he can combat that. I have no idea if that thought made sense- I can't get it out of my mind in a clear manner. 

[LuvJackNasty]

That there were no reins on their feelings is perhaps what frightens Ennis as well as the idea of what might happen to them if they lived together. Ennis likes to be in control; BBM is a sfe environment where he feels he doesn't need to be, but once off it he's back in what he sees as the real world, where real men don't express their feelings except under very special circumstances, eg on the honeymoon or with their children when they're small. Enni spends so long trying to control his relationship with Jack the one with Alma, even the one with Cassie, who (I think) also frightens him by trying to get him to loosen up.
In Bakhtin's term. Ennis has no trace of the carnivalesque;he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness. Jack isn't, and that's what both attracts him and frightens him.

Well said WW 

[lancecowboy]

That there were no reins on their feelings is perhaps what frightens Ennis as well as the idea of what might happen to them if they lived together. Ennis likes to be in control; BBM is a sfe environment where he feels he doesn't need to be, but once off it he's back in what he sees as the real world, where real men don't express their feelings except under very special circumstances, eg on the honeymoon or with their children when they're small. Enni spends so long trying to control his relationship with Jack the one with Alma, even the one with Cassie, who (I think) also frightens him by trying to get him to loosen up.
In Bakhtin's term. Ennis has no trace of the carnivalesque;he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness. Jack isn't, and that's what both attracts him and frightens him.

Yes!!! WW, you are so right! I agree 100%  Ennis = control and Jack = spontaneity. That's the word I was looking for. And with Jack, Ennis can be spontaneous. In fact, he gets so spontaneous that he has no control. When Aquirre was up the mountain looking for them, he witnessed Ennis grabbing Jack from behind, ripping his shirt off, and rough housing on the ground. That's spontaneous. The dozy embrace, that's spontaneous. Jumping down the stairs two by two, the passionate reunion kiss...even Jack the ever spontaneous was shocked and surprised by it.

And in the real world, no body has total control. Acknowledging his relationship with Jack would put Ennis even further behind in the control scorecard.

It is only in the final scenes, after Jack's death, when Ennis had to face his lack of control, when he finally acknowledged that all the control in the world was mere illusionary, and only Jack's love for him was real, for twenty years. Only Jack's Ma unconditional acceptance of him, of them, was real. Only Alma Jr's loving financee, their happiness were real.

Thanks, WW, you put this into perspective for me.

[lancecowboy]

Exactly, Thomas.  I know the topic is to try and break away from society and and the fear of being found out but those are very huge factors, if you take them away then there is not much to stop them fromliving freely and openly. IMO, society is another character in this story- the pink elephant in the room if you will. Both the movie and SS state that Earl and Rich were "tough, old birds" so to me that shows that no matter how tough you are you can still fall victim to hatred and I think that adds yet another layer to Ennis's fears- he's shown as tough and can kick someone's butt but being tough isn't a guarantee that he can combat that. I have no idea if that thought made sense- I can't get it out of my mind in a clear manner. 

Yes, you make perfect sense, LJN, the pink elephant indeed! Society is the central character, along with Ennis and Jack! I love it.

[manhattangirl]

Yes!!! WW, you are so right! I agree 100%  Ennis = control and Jack = spontaneity. That's the word I was looking for. And with Jack, Ennis can be spontaneous. In fact, he gets so spontaneous that he has no control. When Aquirre was up the mountain looking for them, he witnessed Ennis grabbing Jack from behind, ripping his shirt off, and rough housing on the ground. That's spontaneous. The dozy embrace, that's spontaneous. Jumping down the stairs two by two, the passionate reunion kiss...even Jack the ever spontaneous was shocked and surprised by it.

And in the real world, no body has total control. Acknowledging his relationship with Jack would put Ennis even further behind in the control scorecard.

It is only in the final scenes, after Jack's death, when Ennis had to face his lack of control, when he finally acknowledged that all the control in the world was mere illusionary, and only Jack's love for him was real, for twenty years. Only Jack's Ma unconditional acceptance of him, of them, was real. Only Alma Jr's loving financee, their happiness were real.

Thanks, WW, you put this into perspective for me.

The more I've read these post the more questions I have.  Didn't Ennis have that sense or the trace of carnivalesque? Enough to know to limit it?  Is that the control your talking about?  I see Ennis feasting when he's with Jack, feasting on Jack's body, his emotions, his love, then the fasting begins.  Which might be pretty confusing for Jack. 

Am I misunderstanding this?  HELP!!

[myprivatejack]

Great thread,Tony¡  (¡Muy bien¡)And nice posts also¡I´m afraid everything has been said on them,but here it is my opinion:
Fear of love:I think Ennis had lots of love to give and be given,but this need of love was united to loss sensation;first his parents died,after that his daughter,firstly,and after his brother, who left him to live their life...,even this sensation of loss connected with love could appear in Earl and Ritch´s story before young Ennis eyes.So he developed a kind of inability to show his feelings because he was afraid of loose,afraid of being alone after having loved.
Fear of being queer:In my opinion,both Ennis and Jack was a rootless young men,so when the first found someone who could play the alternative role of friend,companion,confidant,and even a "father of his same age" who gave him comprehension,affection,some advices,trust,etc.,the possibility that this situation became anything deeper was notable-including,at the end,sexual attraction and relationship-.The Earl and Ritch´s ghosts appeared soon after FNIT in Ennis mind(one more time,the duality love-loss),united with the fear in any man of loose his virility,that the environment in which both of them had raised only could increase...For Jack,I think it was not fear,but the need of hiding something that was deep inside him;his tendences and the progressive atraction-love? he was already feeling for Ennis;"I´m not queer"-"Me either",because confessing that he was not so innocent in gay issues has been a too hard revelation for Ennis sensibility,hard enough to end their incipient relationship. However,I think even in Jack´s case, the magnitude of what he began to feel surpassed him, and therefore,scared him;he had had former relationships when he met Ennis,sure,but any other like this,he knew,and he was fighting all his short life against another fear: the one of loosing his greatest love.
The problem after all this for me is not only a question of fear in Ennis mind,but a question of communication,or a lack of it.Someone has told that their respective reactions when they were going to lef BBM was a question of bad communication, and I agree totally.Ennis thought Jack was laughing at him by lassoing him-do you say it so?- and got angry, and, on the other hand,wasn´t able to speak seriously with him.For not speaking about the farewell scene near the truck,speaking about their future projects,as if nothing has happenned,deplorable¡.As deplorable is spend 20 years of their life not being able to open to themselves firstly,and to each other after; for fear,for not being able to overcome a enviroment tradition and for lack of communication before all.

[lancecowboy]

The more I've read these post the more questions I have.  Didn't Ennis have that sense or the trace of carnivalesque? Enough to know to limit it?  Is that the control your talking about?  I see Ennis feasting when he's with Jack, feasting on Jack's body, his emotions, his love, then the fasting begins.  Which might be pretty confusing for Jack. 

Am I misunderstanding this?  HELP!!

Hi, manhattangirl, I am thinking of the conversation they had, when Ennis first loosened up, and spoke more words than in two weeks, then he smiled that gorgeous grin and said was more than he spoke in a year. I think this is revealing because at that moment, their feelings for each other begin to blossom. Jack finding Ennis can be spontaneous, respond to his lead, and Ennis finding Jack can be trusted not to hurt his feelings, not to ridicule when he says something wrong.

The control I spoke of is Ennis' tendency to be perfect in what he does, no matter what it is, no matter how small. Even putting up a tent, it has to be just right. He is that perfect cowboy, the one that Jack wasn't. Jack was the perfect rodeo cowboy, with flair and excitement, the one that Ennis wasn't. Together they were the perfect cowboy couple, fun and responsible...that was the Brokeback Mountain experience, IMO.

I don't think there was fasting, to use your analogy. After all, the reunion kiss, the high altitude #$%@s, they must be pretty filling and satisfying for Jack to keep coming back for more. It's more like a steady diet of delicious beans, when Jack wants more. Ennis was content with feeling the excitement that Jack brings to the relationship. Jack wants more, the sweet life, more time, more recognition...whatever it was that Jack wanted, it was more than Ennis could give at that time. Jack waited twenty years and was ready to give up when Ennis, transformed from the broken heart he suffered at the last meeting, healed by Cassie's example, attempted to start something. Jack's Ma acceptance was the final force that push Ennis to a new level which Jack would have been proud to see, and to be able to finally live that sweet life together.

[tpe]

That there were no reins on their feelings is perhaps what frightens Ennis as well as the idea of what might happen to them if they lived together. Ennis likes to be in control; BBM is a sfe environment where he feels he doesn't need to be, but once off it he's back in what he sees as the real world, where real men don't express their feelings except under very special circumstances, eg on the honeymoon or with their children when they're small. Enni spends so long trying to control his relationship with Jack the one with Alma, even the one with Cassie, who (I think) also frightens him by trying to get him to loosen up.
In Bakhtin's term. Ennis has no trace of the carnivalesque;he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness. Jack isn't, and that's what both attracts him and frightens him.

That's an interesting way to put it WW.  "...he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness" -- this resonates with me.

[tpe]

Exactly, Thomas.  I know the topic is to try and break away from society and and the fear of being found out but those are very huge factors, if you take them away then there is not much to stop them fromliving freely and openly. IMO, society is another character in this story- the pink elephant in the room if you will. Both the movie and SS state that Earl and Rich were "tough, old birds" so to me that shows that no matter how tough you are you can still fall victim to hatred and I think that adds yet another layer to Ennis's fears- he's shown as tough and can kick someone's butt but being tough isn't a guarantee that he can combat that. I have no idea if that thought made sense- I can't get it out of my mind in a clear manner. 

Yes, a disapproving society looms large as a charcter in BBM.  It is embodies in various characters seen throughout the movie -- and with enough variation so as not to make it look stereotypical.

[manhattangirl]

Hi, manhattangirl, I am thinking of the conversation they had, when Ennis first loosened up, and spoke more words than in two weeks, then he smiled that gorgeous grin and said was more than he spoke in a year. I think this is revealing because at that moment, their feelings for each other begin to blossom. Jack finding Ennis can be spontaneous, respond to his lead, and Ennis finding Jack can be trusted not to hurt his feelings, not to ridicule when he says something wrong.

The control I spoke of is Ennis' tendency to be perfect in what he does, no matter what it is, no matter how small. Even putting up a tent, it has to be just right. He is that perfect cowboy, the one that Jack wasn't. Jack was the perfect rodeo cowboy, with flair and excitement, the one that Ennis wasn't. Together they were the perfect cowboy couple, fun and responsible...that was the Brokeback Mountain experience, IMO.

I don't think there was fasting, to use your analogy. After all, the reunion kiss, the high altitude #$%@s, they must be pretty filling and satisfying for Jack to keep coming back for more. It's more like a steady diet of delicious beans, when Jack wants more. Ennis was content with feeling the excitement that Jack brings to the relationship. Jack wants more, the sweet life, more time, more recognition...whatever it was that Jack wanted, it was more than Ennis could give at that time. Jack waited twenty years and was ready to give up when Ennis, transformed from the broken heart he suffered at the last meeting, healed by Cassie's example, attempted to start something. Jack's Ma acceptance was the final force that push Ennis to a new level which Jack would have been proud to see, and to be able to finally live that sweet life together.

For me,  Ennis was fasting after the feast, the couple of high altitude f@#ks was a strain on Jack, but for Ennis those were feast days.  I agree with all of what you said, but Ennis for whatever reason lived in the wilderness of world that he wasn't part of, and wasn't ready to leave, fear of his real needs, fear of abandoment, whatever, he emotionally, and spiritually fasted, until the time he could again be with Jack, and that was the only time he was alive.     

I don't know if I'm making sense.

[Tony]

      Manhattengirl, you really didn't need any help---the concept of feast and famine, or maybe feast and fasting, holds up very well.  You are
very well organized.
      I was not, in introducing this topic.  Generally, somebody starts a thread, and then drops back to being a contributor, the moderators then
keeping things on track.  I know where I went wrong and would like to cover that, while I can (my computer keeps crashing).

     There are majority and minority opinions amongst the Brokies, on key issues.  For example, whether Ennis was straight and fell off the
cliff from loneliness.  The majority refer back to the SS to support repressed gay, and I have said there's considerable support for the film
breaking with the SS.  In trolling around in old threads, have found at least 2 moderators who once supported the minority opinion, but, I guess
from a sense of discretion, have let that be.  In another forum, I believe they are still battling this out.
    Similarly, there is a tension between those who are most happy keeping strictly to the very real and certainly central theme of homophobia
in society and lingering in Ennis's mind-set, and those who want to go further to a more universal theme of the troubles of any great love
story, which just happens, in this case, to be gay issues.  Any love story has issues. But are the issues the end of the story or really the
stage on which a larger, more universal and enduring experience is played out?  Unfortunately, seeing these heart-breaking issues as a staging
ground, gives unnecessary offense to those who are focused there, and only there.

  That was where I made my mistake.  I brought those two areas into the wretchedly disorganized introduction.  And didn't have to.
The topic of Fear of Love can stand on its own, and ALSO, can accomodate the majority and minority opinions.  Am so very grateful that
the early contributors went past that mistake, caught the correct football, and ran with it.

   As far as the fight on Brokeback Mountain being part of the topic title, there I meant that struggle as symbolic of the struggles later to
come as the two lovers wrestled, for decades, with their love for each other.

   Having cleaned up the introduction, hopefully, anyone who wants to develop some of these beautiful posts that have been made, should
know---they are really going past previous threads and also, have to say, putting me in open PBS, which had avoided admitting before.

  Again, before my computer goes wonky on me a few more times, thanks for going past the disorganized first post.  FlowerChild's posts
got me to understand, the topic can cover both approaches----they were afraid of their love and I think that also includes Jack, although
to a lesser degree than Ennis, by far.

[manhattangirl]

Tony-You do it.  Your ideas are thought provoking,  and believe me when you post I always have to read it.  You have two great ideas, now take us there, take us to a place where you want us to be, and discuss things we may not have even thought aboutl. 

[Tony]

     Didn't like my last post-too complicated-so am going to fool around, a little, with what is either a defect in the story-line or something else
going on.
     Myprivatejack points out the complete breakdown in communication as they break camp and then fight, and then finally part ways with
small talk.  That, on the surface, is inconsistent with the collapse of sexual barriers and the progression to intense lovemaking.  After all,
something should have been communicated with all that going on. The possibility that they were in denial and bubbling off the activity, and then
ignoring it the rest of the time doesn't hold up as they were frequent fliers and the schedule was during days and nights.  They knew they
were lovers, which means--no denials.  So why the meltdown when they break camp?
   It really seems to be that they saw a stopping of the clock, a time-less period when all rules were suspended.  The clock starting up again
only when breaking camp to come down off the mountain.  A cheaper way to put this would be the phrase-what happens in Vegas stays in
Vegas.  If am going from too complex in the previous post to too simplistic here, can't help that.  Either the story-line is flawed or, both
had signalled an agreement to that formula, to allow the rules to collapse.  It is, after all, easier to go for a one night stand than to make a
life-time commitment.  It was upside down from the start because inherent in accepting collapse of the rules was the formula that it was
only temporary doings.  But they had each fallen in love and had not communicated THAT by the time of breaking camp.
   Also, although in love, they were unfamiliar with love, and so very possibly not sure what they were dealing with.  Most great love stories
relate confusion over the meaning of unfamiliar feelings (West Side Story, for example).
   So, however simplistic this is,  Jack was right, later, when he said-there was never enough time.  When the idyllic dream world on the mountain
was fractured by the early breaking camp, there wasn't enough time, when the clock started ticking again, to sort things out.
Which leads me to wonder if they both had an internal clock that said there was still enough time up there to break the original formula, and
they were putting that off as they believed they still had a month to go.  That they would have confronted the issue of love better if
Aguirre hadn't yanked them off the mountain.
   Myprivatejack, I think they would have communicated better if Aguirre hadn't jumped the clock.  There might well have been a chance our
two radical puppies would have worked out something better than those formal, meaningless words said as they parted.  As it was, they
really didn't even trade addresses.

[manhattangirl]

Tony,

The fear of Love,  the fear of  love not returned, fear of abandonment, degrees of the love, all of these things we all can identify with.  I think, (I may be wrong) you want to go beyond the fear of coming out, their love is out so let's move on.  Now they have to wrestle with idea of the love. Am I wrong?

 You brought up Jonathan and David, and love stumbled upon, wasn't that how it was with Jack and Ennis.   Jonathan hid David to protect him, protect from Saul.  Ennis hides Jack on Brokeback to protect him, Ennis will always live with memory of his father .   Jonathan makes David swear because he loved him as he love his own soul.  "Jack I swear".  David didn't understand the anger of Saul, the fear of "two guys living together, no way", I don't think Jack wanted to understand that one. 

In the final confrontation "I not queer" wasn't discuss, but the fear of love and the loss of love was.

my thoughts. 

[lancecowboy]

For me,  Ennis was fasting after the feast, the couple of high altitude f@#ks was a strain on Jack, but for Ennis those were feast days.  I agree with all of what you said, but Ennis for whatever reason lived in the wilderness of world that he wasn't part of, and wasn't ready to leave, fear of his real needs, fear of abandoment, whatever, he emotionally, and spiritually fasted, until the time he could again be with Jack, and that was the only time he was alive.     

I don't know if I'm making sense.

Absolutely. I see what you mean, and I agree with you. Ennis feasted on Jack and fasted when he was alone. How the man can stand it speaks loudly for the strength of his character, and his stoicism. It is also why Ennis broke down when Jack complained that he had no idea how bad it gets. The man knows very well how bad it gets, and he suffers with it everyday. As you said, he only comes alive when he is with Jack. I see him in the bar scene before Cassie joined him, sitting there, staring at the empty beer bottles. Why doesn't Ennis simply get up and move to Texas, as Jack suggested? Some of you say he was afraid of being exposed, some of you say he was afraid of love, of being rejected, of losing Jack... I say it was simply inertia and Ennis' tendency to take the conservative route. He wasn't a risk taker. When Alma told him about the job at the power plant, he automatically turned it down without a second thought. That's when Alma finally decided to divorce him, and initiated, IMO, that horrible bedroom scene..."I can have 'em if you can support 'em." It was a mean way to get a husband to divorce you. She never forgave him for lying all those years. I don't blame her, but it was still mean.

Anyway, I ramble OT...

[jackster]

Tony – You’re off into interesting territory here no doubt. I gotta “go to the video tape here” (i.e. text) - the SS really doesn’t talk about “love” much up on Brokeback. That all really comes later; even the Dozy Embrace is actually a remembrance of an event that was “solidified in his memory” 20 years later, not necessarily as it actually happened up on the mountain. It may have been mostly imagined by Jack, huh? (Whut? It didn't happen? ^^)) The only real sex on Brokeback after “no instruction manual needed” is laid out like this:

Ennis woke in red dawn with his pants around his knees, a top grade headache, and Jack butted against him; without saying anything about it, both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.

As it did go. They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a goddam word except once Ennis said, "I'm not no queer," and Jack jumped in with "Me neither. A one shot thing. Nobody's business but ours." There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours.

I’m sure no love expert but ”not saying a goddam word” doesn’t sound like a lot of lovin’ was going on, more like a lot mutual self-gratification. These are 19 y.o. boys after all, love is not a big idea but sex sure is. The movie of course does go there; SNIT has LOVE written all over it. So yes, I think your absolutely right, there’s a crack in the structures here, the SS never goes to love (and the recognition of love) until later (years later), the movie goes to love up on Brokeback but then pulls back with the seeming inability to communicate much simpler emotions during the camp breakup. Of course this is requirement if they are going to have the fight, which sheds the blood. (Communion? uh, oh I’m not going there).

I’ve always chalked this up to differences required due to the medium, the tempos they follow, the literacy they require. Real intersting discusson, not sure this has added much.

[Tony]

    Hi, Manhattengirl---yes and no.  Yes, I think it's needed to go past the single fear of coming out, but, no, not at the expense of
undermining that central problem.  It should be possible to look at the problems of any love, applying to our Ennis and Jack, without taking
away from the obvious dilemma of same-sex issues.   Fear of gay love, then, and also, finally moving to fear of love, universally understood,
fear of that love, too.   
   The development of the analogy to Jonathon and David was unexpected.  Had forgotten the details.  Maybe there's some underlying theme
in the human psyche of a lover protecting the beloved from the rage of a parent.

  Lance, the sense you have of Ennis being conservative and unable to change much---inertia--is  very true, and he says he knows this about
himself when he says he has trouble, what was it?---getting around a coffee pot?  I forget.  But if true, this lessens the force of the charges
against him that he was paralyzed over gay issues, and only that.  No, he was having troubles with changes of any kind, all his life.

   Jackster, yeah, the difference is there, between the SS and the film.  Nothing can ever be taken away from Annie by acknowledging this.
Have always thought of it that she gave birth to Ennis and Jack, but they developed further, on their own.

[lancecowboy]

[...]  Lance, the sense you have of Ennis being conservative and unable to change much---inertia--is  very true, and he says he knows this about
himself when he says he has trouble, what was it?---getting around a coffee pot?  I forget.  But if true, this lessens the force of the charges
against him that he was paralyzed over gay issues, and only that.  No, he was having troubles with changes of any kind, all his life.
[...]

"Mexico? Hell...you know me. 'Bout all the travelin' I ever done is goin' aroung the coffee pot, lookin' for the handle."

"I doubt there's nothing' we can do. I'm stuck with what I got here. Makin' a livin's about all I got time for now."

"If you can't fix it, Jack,... you gotta stand it."

I recall Manhattangirl suggested that Ennis had fear of abandonment and commitment issues from the loss of his family all through childhood. I think perhaps this loss also contributes to a sense of helplessness in his ability to change the world. He feels that he is powerless, poor and alone, to do anything about what's outside of his sphere of influence, which is on the ranch, doing cowboy stuff, and from all appearances, he is great at it. Within his own little world, especially with Jack in it, Ennis is king of the world. Outside of it, he gets smacked, each and every time. It probably made him fear change, fear making change. It took Alma a lot of seduction to get him to move to Riverton, and guess what, she fell for the assistant manager. Would she divorce him so readily if she doesn't have a beau in the wing? Ennis must have thought that. It's not just inertia, it's the whole loneliness issue again. Him against the world, except when Jack is with him. And especially when they are in Brokeback Mountain, then the world consists of only the two of them. Him and Jack livin' together, like two tough old birds? If death and destruction don't scare him, the whole world comin' down on him would. The pink elephant, to quote LJN from another thread, is real and scary to Ennis. Like it or not, that's just him. Jack loved Ennis, in spite of it, and put up with all the crap that it entails...like driving fourteen hours each way, two three times a year, like the cold fricking weather, like the ...never enough time. Okay, no pBS...

Thanks, Tony, for asking great questions. I'd never expand on this if you didn't bring it up. I just love this movie soooo much. It's rich with everything meaningful. And it's wonderful to be able to share it, discuss it, savor it, with you all.

[LuvJackNasty]

   
   LJN, you already did it (causing PBS) with that new (at least, to me) reading of Jack as bullied or trashed by little men with no soul.  If you
don't feel it's long enough for a new thread, could you develop it here?  As in going a little further and getting feedback?  It is on topic because
fear of love can go anywhere you want to develop it.

 

I tried to come up with wording for a new thread on this and I'm really bad at that so I gave up.  But to carry along the other men theme, let's look at Ennis's father. We all know about the horror he showed Ennis at nine years old but let's look at this from the SS when Ennis and Jack are at the Motel Siesta. Ennis is talking about how KE used to beat him up and this is an excerpt from that:

"Dad says, you got a take him unawares, don't say nothin to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin it until he gets the message. Nothin like hurting somebody to make him hear good..... The lesson was, don't say nothin and get it over with quick."

So what is that lesson? Hurt or be hurt? To me it seems as if his father basically taught him that you solve things with your fists. And based on other comments in the SS that him bringing Ennis to see Earl's body wasn't the only time his homophobia was instilled in Ennis- the remarks that were mentioned and when Ennis says to Jack "If he was alive and was to poke his head in that door right now you bet he'd go get his tire iron." He had that hatred instilled in him a lot it seems- to believe that your own father would kill you. But on the flip side it does speak volumes as to how much Ennis loved Jack- it was stronger than any of those "lessons" he was taught in that he was unable to fight it. But, the fear is what held him back from having a complete life with Jack.

There is a thread about Rich in here and until that member brought it out it had never occurred to me that Rich was a very tragic figure here too. I only focused on Earl and that always stuck with me in that Ennis was afraid of becoming Earl or having Jack end up like Earl and in the end Ennis ended up being Rich- the last one left standing. A fate worse than death, perhaps?

[LuvJackNasty]

Tony, your "wonky ideas" are welcome here-we all have our own ideas, impressions and feelings concerning this film/story and that's what makes for good discussion and those things are as unique as we are. I don't agree with everything that was ever said here and I'm sure not everyone has agreed with anything I've come up with over the past 18+ months- that's the nature of the beast so to speak but I've found on this forum that there isn't "member bashing"- we keep it respectful. For me these discussions have made me see things I never would have found on my own and have really enhanced the whole experience. For me to take the homophobic society out of the equation is hard because I see that as a major hinderance to them. I'm not sure I can "think outside the box" concerning that, but that's me.

Another member and i had discussed the circumcised and uncircumcised aspect that AP wrote about- knowing that she doesn't waste words we felt it was significant but really couldn't come up with anything other than it just showed a difference between the two. Nothing too dramatic in breaking it down as you can see but I'd love to hear thoughts on that. I'd love to discuss the other men in the story too, I just can't word the start of the topic the right way.

[Tony]

     Thanks, LJN---no one has been unkind to me here.  Even when I clearly went way off topic, and had to reform myself.  But I meant to
say various recent posts reminded me of a time, very painful, when I provoked extreme reactions just being myself.  And there are three Brokies
that I have offended, unwittingly, and this go round, it was me in the wrong, not them.  Cyberspace prevents really seeing a person means
no harm.  Those 3 just avoid me, because I did not adapt my words correctly.  But they have not been cruel.  Just silent. Can't blame them.

   Did not express myself well, yet again.  When I said take the homophobic out of the equation, I meant temporarily, to see what was left over.
Of course it's understood that is central.  But then, is there anything past that and I saw the climate of guys, without reference to gay issues,
having problems with Jack being lively and, maybe even needy, and so I think if Jack had never slept with another man, the climate still
could have killed him, for he was spontaneous and full of life and that was threatening.  The guy who called him a piss-ant was part of a
climate that frowned on being lively.  I really believe the rodeo clown just thought he was being too friendly- a nerd.  Jack was being battered
as a person from that climate, and then further destroyed by a homophobic climate affecting Ennis's choices. No, LJN, taking the homophobic
out of the equation permanently was never meant, and is clearly wrong.  But do it briefly, and you might see the other hurts.

  As for the uncircumcised father meaning anything, am glad someone else agrees it's an odd thing for our non-wordy Annie to do.  So I finally
looked her up on the internet (am, in fact, slow) and I believe, now, anything is fair game.  Why?  Because she is not a gifted local prodigy
from out west.  She was East Coast, with advanced degrees.  And her assumption of the western slang and mood is an advanced technique
that began in Russia in the 19th century called skaz.  Not imitating the Russians, necessarily, it also showed up here, with Mark Twain.
   So with our beloved and respected lady, it's about time to quit supposing she hasn't been influenced by and fully familiar with literary
theories or that she cannot weave in some very deep stuff almost accidentally, for the lady cannot shed her education nor her ability to think.
But as to the uncircumcised father, depends on how much symbolism can be found in her other works.  If very little, then she was being
careful to make the scene more realistic and therefore more traumatic as he pissed on his son.  Poor Jack.  She was showing him as a
victim of males from the very start.

   Manhattengirl, I've looked up Jonathon and David and the oaths sworn at different times.  All I can be sure of is the love itself, shown in
this quote from David's lament (Sam. II, 1-26):
     "Your love for me was wonderful, surpassing the love of woman."

  Well, anybody want to wander around in how isolated Ennis and Jack were from other males, how they had brutal fathers, and how this
led them developing differently, but still with fear of love?  Same-sex love, or any kind of love?  Even why didn't they develop further
with their wives?  Will, myself, get back to LJN's theme of bullying (not her words-mine) when there's a way to develop it.

[LuvJackNasty]

   
   Did not express myself well, yet again.  When I said take the homophobic out of the equation, I meant temporarily, to see what was left over.
Of course it's understood that is central.  But then, is there anything past that and I saw the climate of guys, without reference to gay issues,
having problems with Jack being lively and, maybe even needy, and so I think if Jack had never slept with another man, the climate still
could have killed him, for he was spontaneous and full of life and that was threatening.  The guy who called him a piss-ant was part of a
climate that frowned on being lively.  I really believe the rodeo clown just thought he was being too friendly- a nerd.  Jack was being battered
as a person from that climate, and then further destroyed by a homophobic climate affecting Ennis's choices. No, LJN, taking the homophobic
out of the equation permanently was never meant, and is clearly wrong.  But do it briefly, and you might see the other hurts.

  As for the uncircumcised father meaning anything, am glad someone else agrees it's an odd thing for our non-wordy Annie to do.....But as to the uncircumcised father, depends on how much symbolism can be found in her other works.  If very little, then she was being
careful to make the scene more realistic and therefore more traumatic as he pissed on his son.  Poor Jack.  She was showing him as a
victim of males from the very start.

 

Tony, You were clear in your wording to explore the issue of love itself and all that comes with it, as well as other themes that come into play. I was just saying that for me it's hard to separate the two- it's a me thing.  But I will try to look at it with new eyes.

I went back to the SS to that awful scene with young Jack and his father and this idea may seem out there but here goes anyway: "I seen they cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand." I still think it just shows the difference between Jack and his father but I'm also thinking the line I quoted may be important too. Is it possible that the reference to livestock made Jack feel like he was "owned"? That he was marked much like a piece of property as opposed to a child? I know that may seem like a stretch but I do have a curiousity about that piece of the SS.

I will try to come up with more thoughts on Jack and the other men in the story/movie. 

[Tony]

    LJN---I  think the quote itself is a bullseye hit, but am of a different mind as to what it means.  You suggest maybe being owned or branded,
and that could well be so.  But what jumped off the screen at me was the first part: "I seen they cut me different..."  The shrinks say we guys
identify our very selves with our--equipment.  However else the sentence goes, those words, to me, suggest Jack felt he was made differently
from other men.  Certainly from his father. Cut differently=made differently.  And so could never fit in with the world his father represented.  It's
a stretch, to use only the first half of the sentence, but that was my immediate reaction.
   It fits in well with always being the outsider and always being rejected.  Until Ennis.  There his life-force, his liveliness, was a medicine to a
young man also always left out.  I know the killing of Earl affected him, but have always felt the casual discarding of him by his brother affected
him greatly.  For if what's left of your family don't want you--you ain't got nothing, you are nobody, long before you complain that it's because
of Jack at their last time together.
   Two very discardable males, then.  One feeling that he was "cut differently" and maybe that could explain to a child why he felt unwanted.
The other seeing Earl dead-for loving, gay love, sure, but for loving (he admired them--please, everybody, remember how he admired them-
"they waz tough, old birds..") and then discarded, for no good reason that holds up, by his only remaining kin, none of whom wanted him.
   Long before they met, the isolation of each had set in.  Ennis was stoic and accepting.  Jack was---a dreamer, and would not accept this
coldness around them.  That was what caused Ennis to love him.  What he saw in Ennis was as you have pointed out, the first male to accept
him for himself. Wow, was the stage set well when they met outside Aguirre's trailer.

[manhattangirl]

       Long before they met, the isolation of each had set in.  Ennis was stoic and accepting.  Jack was---a dreamer, and would not accept this
coldness around them.  That was what caused Ennis to love him.  What he saw in Ennis was as you have pointed out, the first male to accept
him for himself. Wow, was the stage set well when they met outside Aguirre's trailer.

Tony was this a cloak of acceptance each offered the other?   Take me the rest of the way.

[Tony]

     No, Manhattengirl, you are already there.  The cloak of acceptance they offered each other is the top of the mountain, and, in that
direction, there is no further heighth.  Unless, of course, you want to jump up in the air, briefly, to rejoice in how life found for them at
least some healing, from their respective hurts.
    Am, myself, a little troubled by my own looking into the SS and Annie Proulx.  Each of the contributors in these types of threads has a
stable and productive perspective.  Jackster, for example, with his casual organization of the scenes. LJN, varying from thoughtful, to
touching a raw PBS nerve, by her empathy for Jack.  You, yourself, vary, but usually end up with a one sentence conclusion, often very
empathetic, that covers all the previous territory.
   But, yesterday, when I looked up Annie on the internet, I found too much.  The territory of literary criticism is often pompous, frequently
gibberish, but absolutely necessary for a full appreciation of an author's style and content.  Had some training in that area, and left it with
fear and loathing.   Am certain Annie knows the literary theories and also that, like any author, would love to smack some of the theorists
up a side of the head.  So, I have had a hangover, from confronting that, yesterday, and wondering if it is productive.

    You have more or less settled the issue I've been troubled by.  Your sentence covers that particular territory, and I really believe it
is the best rendering, there.

   By the way, what's troubling me is her style.  She did a lot of screenplay work for the movie, in advance, before there was a plan fora film.
And that's because she creates her work WITH camera shots and scenes, even angles of those camera shots.  Which means to me she
had this much in her mind, visually. And that's bugging me. 
  Thanks for your use of the phrase "cloak of acceptance"---it covers much of the previous posts and gets rid of my hangover from yesterday's
wonderings.

[welshwitch]

  We're not - it was all hype and passed without incident.
I think the Western ethos, and the character of Ennis which is a product of it, goes back to the Stoic tradition of the ancient world.
Jack is the Dionysian, if you like......though I think Ennis not really Apollonian!
Like most Brits, I ignore the French and their philosophies. In fact we have an apposite expression - "I spit me of" in this case "JP Sartre and all his works."