Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[FlwrChild]

I love Jack more and more because of his persistence, his devoted faithfulness to Ennis over the years and over the distances, and because he pursued his dream, single-handedly captured the force of nature between them, made their love real for twenty years.

LC, you have just hit on exactly why I love Jack. He loved one person steadfastly his whole adult life. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't particularly sophisticated. For him, it was simple - I love Ennis, everything revolves around that.


I wish I could believe a little bit more the rest of what you say, but I just don't see it happening. I don't know that there was anything Jack could say to unlock Ennis's resistance to having a life together. Not his resistance to Jack, which was obviously shattered years before, but to the idea that they had any viable options. It's easy to be frustrated with Ennis, but it's also part of why I feel so protective towards him, and hurt for him so much. He was bound by lessons that were just too deeply ingrained to be able to see around. This is also why I love him - because, even with all of that going on inside of him, he did, as you pointed out, sacrifice and make the effort to keep seeing Jack all those years.

I don't see Jack as being overly self-centered or self-absorbed though (I know, no one is surprised by that ). Part of the reason that he is unaware of the magnitude of Ennis's sacrifice over the years is precisely because of that stoicism of Ennis's. The confrontation scene shows us, and them, just how little they each understand of the other's feelings - Jack doesn't realize how difficult this has been on Ennis, Ennis doesn't realize how much his resistance has hurt Jack. They've each been wrapped up in their own pain and personal frame of reference that they weren't able to see things from the other's eyes. This conversation was quite an awakening for both of them, I'm sure.

And you're absolutely right about two things:

- It's not all Ennis's fault. He's as much a victim of circumstance as Jack. It's just that he was the one who had the power to change things, in appearance. The reality is that he simply couldn't exercise that power, and he didn't even know he had it.

- "The irresistible force met the immovable object.

It was only after Jack's death, that the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain."


Beautifully said.

[lancecowboy]

LC, you have just hit on exactly why I love Jack. He loved one person steadfastly his whole adult life. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't particularly sophisticated. For him, it was simple - I love Ennis, everything revolves around that.

I wish I could believe a little bit more the rest of what you say, but I just don't see it happening. I don't know that there was anything Jack could say to unlock Ennis's resistance to having a life together. Not his resistance to Jack, which was obviously shattered years before, but to the idea that they had any viable options. It's easy to be frustrated with Ennis, but it's also part of why I feel so protective towards him, and hurt for him so much. He was bound by lessons that were just too deeply ingrained to be able to see around. This is also why I love him - because, even with all of that going on inside of him, he did, as you pointed out, sacrifice and make the effort to keep seeing Jack all those years.

Well, FlwrChild, I have always felt people can change to a certain degree but that's my naivete again. However, I can see what you mean, that Ennis, being stuck in a small rural community all his life, never traveled far, and probably never bothered to learn more about the outside world, would continue down the path that his father set for him with the Earl scene, feeling powerless to change.

I don't see Jack as being overly self-centered or self-absorbed though (I know, no one is surprised by that ). Part of the reason that he is unaware of the magnitude of Ennis's sacrifice over the years is precisely because of that stoicism of Ennis's. The confrontation scene shows us, and them, just how little they each understand of the other's feelings - Jack doesn't realize how difficult this has been on Ennis, Ennis doesn't realize how much his resistance has hurt Jack. They've each been wrapped up in their own pain and personal frame of reference that they weren't able to see things from the other's eyes. This conversation was quite an awakening for both of them, I'm sure.

I see what you mean, echoing what manhattangirl said about the scene being an affirmation of their love for each other, that the scene allowed them to say to each other how they felt about each other, even though the dialog was painfully awkward, reflecting the stoic reticent nature of Ennis, and in a way, Jack the not-so-great communicator, who gets tongue-tied around the love of his life. We all get the same symptoms ... when our feelings overwhelm our mouth to say how we truly feel. And it's never easy to open up and say what we truly feel, while remaining open to receive to perceive what the other person is truly saying. Two way open communication is so hard, at the best of times, that it's amazing what they accomplished in that scene.

And you're absolutely right about two things:

- It's not all Ennis's fault. He's as much a victim of circumstance as Jack. It's just that he was the one who had the power to change things, in appearance. The reality is that he simply couldn't exercise that power, and he didn't even know he had it.

Ennis was so unconscious of so much about himself...that he was loved, not only by Jack, but also by Cassie, and Alma Jr... I guess when Ennis was so wrapped up in his thought about being found out, about missing Jack, it was easy to be unconscious of other important parts of his life.

Most of all, Ennis grew up without confidence in himself. From the beginning trailer scene to the end of the movie, Ennis gained confidence from Jack's love, by reflecting the bravado that he love to see in Jack. That was the beauty of their soul-mate love - Jack had the confidence but not the cowboy skills while Ennis had the cowboy skills but not the confidence. Together on Brokeback Mountain they were perfectly fitted together. When Jack drove off that summer in '63, he left behind a friend who helped him turn his ideas into reality, make his dreams come true. For Ennis, walking down that lonely stretch of highway was painful because his confidence just left him in the dust, his joie de vivre just drove off into the sunset. He was left alone again, like in his childhood, like on that grassy hill on the mountain before the lasso scene. With all the self-doubt, all the sadness, Ennis was stuck, as he said in the motel room, with just the practical things in life, like making a living, taking care of the two girls. Dreaming what could be, thinking of the sweet life, was not his forte and not what he thought was possible.

As you said, the tragedy of the movie is not so much just the death of Jack, or the loneliness of Ennis as an old man. It is the missed opportunities for them to say to each other their true feelings, society's pink elephant be d@#$ed. It is the missed opportunities for Ennis to embrace Jack's dream of a sweet life.

- "The irresistible force met the immovable object.

It was only after Jack's death, that the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain."

Beautifully said.

Thanks, 

I just watched the movie, from beginning to end, again for the first time after a couple weeks. It's just as powerful, and  now I can see what you mean by Ennis' stoicism getting in the way of his expressing his feelings for Jack. In the short story, the motel confession would be much more satisfying to Jack, but then the tragic element would be lost.

[ayasha]

ayashae , I can relate to what you shared here.  Although the fear to reciprocate may not have been the same as the one Ennis exhibited and Jack endured, it is of the same substance.

As FlwrChild said, we all share a personal connection with the story, and I would not be surprised if the fear of love is at the core for many of us.  It's more universal than most people would want to admit, I believe.  This is why this topic moves us so.

I totally agree with that. At least I see it too often around, not only in myself

[lancecowboy]

...If I was being so unpleasant, why the hell was he still trying to be good to me?? ...What do you want from me you idiot!?!?  ... I wondered myself one thousand times why he was interested in me and I used to have the bitterest thoughts: He's in need of a girlfriend, he doesn't know me actually, as soon as he notices the way I am he'll be disappointed etc...FlwrChild spoke about self esteem, I totally agree. When you hate yourself you can't understand others loving you, so you try to keep them at distance. Accepting that love is a threat to all your mind patterns, meaning to become a different person...That is a harder thing to do than stay comfortable in your cocoon in isolation. There are fear of love, and fear of life as Tony said.

That was the way it started, and it lasted around 5 years more or less. With time, I had no more rough impulses towards him, but kindness and deep affection, even if I was always confused and wondering what was going on in his head...or heart. We never had a romantic relationship since I always thought sincerely, he deserved to be corresponded, and I wasn't able to be as good as he was to me. I didn't want to give him a chance, just to try, and then leave him and hurt him much more than he could hurt me, I always thought it wasn't fair for him. During those 5 years, he got a couple of girlfriends, never too serious, and in the meantime, I knew he still had a soft spot for me. We did never speak openly about it...but I knew his attitudes, his looks...and a gossip friend of him who I always tried to avoid, cause he spoke a bit too much about our common friend. Maybe I was just silly, I don't know yet.

Now, I can only think he loved me, with my lights and darks. I can't say that it was my BbM...I can't compare, but Cassie and Ennis story recalls my own story with this guy. Just I was Ennis and he was Cassie. And despite of my self analysis, I'm not sure that I've learnt the lesson  time will tell I suppose.

Sorry that I've finally made this longer than I planned, hope I haven't bored you to tears.

Ayashae, you know how preoccupied I had been these last few weeks, and I just read your courageous and moving account. I can only say what I learned from Dr. Phil once, that it is important to have a healthy self-image. It is what I am learning from LNJ's Awakening post in another thread. I understand exactly how you feel or felt, because I was exactly the same way, until I understood the love that broke down my walls, just as Ennis understood Jack's love in SNIT. But he never fully felt it in his heart, in his soul, until he found those two shirts, and finally, with tangible evidence of Jack's unfailing faithful devotion to him, Ennis was transformed, when his heart and soul were freed from the chains of fear, of self-doubt. I understood and learned the lesson twenty odd years ago, and am continually learning it everyday because it is almost a fight against some old habit. I was going to say almost like alcoholism, there is no cure, just continually managed everyday.

Having this forum, with all the love and kindness, with all the good and compassionate people, helps me a great deal. Knowing, feeling, accepting the love that I was given many years ago, and now, changed, and continually change my life. I hope your learning and knowing that you are also loved, worthy of great love, will continually to help you find your heaven on earth, and be happy.

Te quiero, mi amiga. 
Usted es una persona maravillosa, capaz de gran bondad y merecedora de grandes elogios. Usted tiene mi cariño interminable.



I love you, my friend.
You are a wonderful person capable of great kindness and deserving of great praise. You have my unending affection.

[FlwrChild]

Thanks, 

I just watched the movie, from beginning to end, again for the first time after a couple weeks. It's just as powerful, and  now I can see what you mean by Ennis' stoicism getting in the way of his expressing his feelings for Jack. In the short story, the motel confession would be much more satisfying to Jack, but then the tragic element would be lost.

LC, your entire post summed things up very well. And I agree with this. Part of me has always wished that Ennis in the movie had been a little more forthcoming about his feelings in that scene, but it fit with the way he was fleshed out for the movie, so...sigh...

I think it's interesting that in the SS, Ennis is shown to be a little more open and tender with Jack (the motel scene admission and the "Little darlin'" in the reunion scene) and in the movie he's shown to be a little more so with his children (in the SS he was fairly cavalier about seeing them after the Thanksgiving blow-out with Alma). In either case, his conflicted feelings about what he could or could not do to alter the direction of his life was well illustrated. As you said, the missed opportunities probably caused the most tragedy.

Ayashae, I'll add one of mine to LC's     I'm awfully glad you're here.

[ayasha]

My senses are a bit dull today, so I owe you better words, and many comments in everybody's great posts, in my next ones...now I just can say THANK YOU, and those feelings are mutual  YOU ARE WONDERFUL 

[Tony]

     Am off on a quirky sidebar to the issue of love (what? Tony quirky?...nah, totally normal...maybe).  We all know that we would admire to be
loved--it's very reassuring, if not flattering.  But I wonder how many of us can admit occasional doubts as to our capacity to love, and am not
being sexist, but this may be more of an issue for guys.
   There's that old song: "Why can't I fall in love, like any other man....and maybe, then, I'll know..what kind of fool I am."  There is the question
of defining your feelings.  Maybe sometimes two lovers wonder, how much of this is sex, how much is companionship, how much is making sure
you are not alone.  Those aren't love.
   It can be a fearful question because we have to dig deep in our souls.  Do you REALLY love this or that family member, for example, or is it
because you're supposed to love them?
  Nobody stays "in love" 24 hours a day-you couldn't function.  So just a slight further look at our two guys---turning the tables, and wondering
if they had trouble believing they could love, really love, as well as the question, were they loved.  There has to be some turmoil in defining your
own feelings, and a small part of the turmoil might well have been for Ennis and Jack, a full, consistent, enduring definition of their feelings
for the other as love.
  So then, added to Fear of Love, which we know was very real, from our vantage point, maybe, off and on, they did, like so many others, if
they only admitted it, wonder about the real force within them, and whether it could be defined as love.
   Aarkghk!  Too wordy!  What I mean is, did they ever doubt not only the others love, but their own?  It would be a very small part of the
equation, but self-doubt as to one's own capacity to love can screw up the works as good as anything else.  This isn't going anywhere, but
am always trying for a fuller picture, and I do wonder.

[lancecowboy]

     Am off on a quirky sidebar to the issue of love (what? Tony quirky?...nah, totally normal...maybe). 

Tony, like Cassie said to Alma jr. after she said her daddy may not be the marrying kind, and that Cassie was good enough...you may not say much, but you get your point across. And you ain't as quirky as you think you are. Your insights always get me thinking into new territories and pushing new boundaries. Sometimes into places I don't want to or need to go, and you are understanding enough not to push too far. I appreciate that.

We all know that we would admire to be
loved--it's very reassuring, if not flattering.  But I wonder how many of us can admit occasional doubts as to our capacity to love, and am not
being sexist, but this may be more of an issue for guys.

I think it is not so much sexist, but the dichotomy of the human sexual nature. Women tend to be more in touch with their feelings, especially their feelings about love; men to be less in tune and understanding about them. Women talk about their feelings all the time, especially with each other; men, especially cowboys, never or hardly ever talk about feelings, especially love. It is why Alma Jr. was so touched, moved to tears, when Ennis asked her if Kurt loved her. It must be the first time he talked to her about love.

   There's that old song: "Why can't I fall in love, like any other man....and maybe, then, I'll know..what kind of fool I am."  There is the question
of defining your feelings.  Maybe sometimes two lovers wonder, how much of this is sex, how much is companionship, how much is making sure
you are not alone.  Those aren't love.
   It can be a fearful question because we have to dig deep in our souls.  Do you REALLY love this or that family member, for example, or is it
because you're supposed to love them?

It took me a long time to learn or understand about love, since I am your typical guy who never talked about feelings with buddies or anyone. I always thought love was what you feel, like in the movies, until I read M.Scott Peck's book "Road Less Traveled" and realized that love is not about feelings, but about actions. It is not lust, but the sexual acts that merge two egos. It is not romance, but the little acts of loving kindness without being asked that make the person feel special. It is not the feeling of camaraderie but the constant watching out for one another, being there for one another. In my opinion, it is not so much about digging deep into the soul, because that means getting into the metaphysical nature of how deep is the soul. But instead, IMO, it is about how much are we willing to do for love, how much are we willing to sacrifice of our own self for the one loved. Would we be willing to drive fourteen hours each way to meet two three times a year, a week at a time? Would we be willing to quit our jobs to meet for just a week, doing what we do every day at the job? Would we be willing to give up everything, even our own life, for the sake of the person we love? These are tangible measures that does not require metaphysics.

  Nobody stays "in love" 24 hours a day-you couldn't function.  So just a slight further look at our two guys---turning the tables, and wondering
if they had trouble believing they could love, really love, as well as the question, were they loved.  There has to be some turmoil in defining your
own feelings, and a small part of the turmoil might well have been for Ennis and Jack, a full, consistent, enduring definition of their feelings
for the other as love.

Although it is out of context, I find a passage from the New Testament appropriate when understanding love: Those who save their own life will lose it, but those who give up their own life for my sake, will gain eternal life.

IMO, it is similar in love, those who seek their own selfish fulfillment will never find love, but those who would give up their own identity for the sake of their loved one will know true love. The key to a healthy long lasting true love relationship is to find a balance between self-denial and self-protection. The miracle of miracles that brought Ennis and Jack together was their being able to build a relationship of trust, of friendship, and finally of love, slowly and naturally, without interference from third parties, without distraction from other temptations, and without external forces that push any new found equilibrium out of balance. Aquirre was the closest to a force that almost destroyed their relationship, when he called them down earlier than planned.

  So then, added to Fear of Love, which we know was very real, from our vantage point, maybe, off and on, they did, like so many others, if
they only admitted it, wonder about the real force within them, and whether it could be defined as love.
   Aarkghk!  Too wordy!  What I mean is, did they ever doubt not only the others love, but their own?  It would be a very small part of the
equation, but self-doubt as to one's own capacity to love can screw up the works as good as anything else.  This isn't going anywhere, but
am always trying for a fuller picture, and I do wonder.

Self-doubt is the antithesis of anything worthwhile in life, and most of all, the nemesis of true love.

True love like Jack's gives confidence to Ennis - bullying and belittling turns away love, while generating self-doubt.

I kinda had it on the tip of my tongue, until you pushed the envelop, Tony, and pushed it clearly out into the open. Where the light of day can show the truth, and burn away the dross. Thanks.

[Tony]

      Hi, Lance---that was such a careful commentary and everything you said was appreciated.  Was moved to try my first cut, copy, paste,
but am totally a klutz- it didn't fly, so will work from memory.
     You had said something about balancing giving one's self up and self-protection, and that is exactly what is healthy.  Branching off from
that, Bishop Fulton Sheen had a t.v. program where he emphasized, on the subject of love, that self-love was not wrong-we were made that
way, and that we must learn to love ourselves first before we can give love to others.  And I think he meant what you were saying-balance.
He was talking long before the catch-phrase "low self-esteem" was being used, and it goes to---a healthy balance.  Except, he did note it's
often hard to love yourself.  Wonder what he would have made of Ennis' insecurities.
   Lance-I don't understand how you feel my posts can "push" -even though you meant that in a very constructive way.  Am not an aggressive
person, so when people have a reaction, I really think it's because I'm the odd man out, the outsider of the tribal village and so, am unaware
that anything from that perspective jolts others.  Your reactions- a serious and decent hearing of someone else's point of view, can make you
feel pushed, but that's you at work, not me.  Your own taking other people seriously.  And this is so very superior to those who hear a different
point of view and quietly..gnash their teeth.  You are a better person for that, and it will keep you a step ahead of those less open-minded
to anything different.
  Which reminds me--Ayashae's very courageous post had many of the elements we have been covering.  Which just strengthens my belief that
there are universal themes of great importance in BBM, and we are right to keep exploring and keep loving, and keep...looking for more.

[lancecowboy]

      Hi, Lance---that was such a careful commentary and everything you said was appreciated.  Was moved to try my first cut, copy, paste,
but am totally a klutz- it didn't fly, so will work from memory.
     You had said something about balancing giving one's self up and self-protection, and that is exactly what is healthy.  Branching off from
that, Bishop Fulton Sheen had a t.v. program where he emphasized, on the subject of love, that self-love was not wrong-we were made that
way, and that we must learn to love ourselves first before we can give love to others.  And I think he meant what you were saying-balance.
He was talking long before the catch-phrase "low self-esteem" was being used, and it goes to---a healthy balance.  Except, he did note it's
often hard to love yourself.  Wonder what he would have made of Ennis' insecurities.

Hey, Tony. I am glad you agree with my take on the balance between self-love and loving others. I respect your insights, so I feel good that you agree with me on this. Thank you.

I don't agree with Bishop Fulton Sheen, however, that it is hard to love oneself. It is only for those who have been brow-beaten by the system, or by bullies, or by abusive spouses, etc, who have trouble with self-love. Ennis, for example, had trouble because he grew up alone with out many loving people. There are others who grew up similarly and choose to love themselves more than others. It all depends on the person's personality, character, and many other innate factors. People are hard to predict, because we all come in a spectrum of possibilities, not either-or, but many shades of colors. On the one extreme is the totally self-absorbed selfish to the point of social psychopath, like the serial killers, etc. On the other extreme is the totally self-denied, who depends on everyone else for their opinions, their decisions, etc. I think most healthy adults fall into the middle somewhere, with a clear and effective balance between self-love and love for others.

   Lance-I don't understand how you feel my posts can "push" -even though you meant that in a very constructive way.  Am not an aggressive
person, so when people have a reaction, I really think it's because I'm the odd man out, the outsider of the tribal village and so, am unaware
that anything from that perspective jolts others.  Your reactions- a serious and decent hearing of someone else's point of view, can make you
feel pushed, but that's you at work, not me.  Your own taking other people seriously.  And this is so very superior to those who hear a different
point of view and quietly..gnash their teeth.  You are a better person for that, and it will keep you a step ahead of those less open-minded
to anything different.

Please don't misunderstand my use of the word "push" in the aggressive (pushy) sense. I meant it as a compliment. As in pushing the envelop of performance, by the Top Guns in the naval aviator sense. If I recall correctly, you had some naval background, and I thought you might pick up on that. I did use the phrase pushing the envelop, did I not?

In any case, I do NOT think you are aggressive. You are  indeed out there on the leading edge and that's perfectly good for you and for society. We need pioneers who take us to unexplored territories.

Thank you for your compliments. I strenuously force myself to be open-minded. Sometimes I have been accused of the opposite, which really hurt. Your acute observations are much appreciated.

  Which reminds me--Ayashae's very courageous post had many of the elements we have been covering.  Which just strengthens my belief that
there are universal themes of great importance in BBM, and we are right to keep exploring and keep loving, and keep...looking for more.

I totally agree with you that Brokeback Mountain is a classic movie that will merit study in university. The themes are as universal as those in Shakespeare's plays. If you ever want to write a text book etc, please feel free to call on me. I'd love to do anything connected with Brokeback Mountain. It would be a labor of love.

[Tony]

    Don't know about trying for a textbook-not qualified.  But, Lance, I sure do appreciate it when you and I accidentally collaborate, as in,
I do an ungainly, complicated post and, to my great relief, you untangle it.  I go---phew, saved by Lance.
   Anyway, am not up to much of value on this topic tonight.  Have been wallowing in old, romantic songs.  The latest- "If I Loved You..", from
one of those older Broadway shows.  In the song, he expresses the greatest of all loves, but hides behind the tentative, qualifying  "if".
And I see Ennis and Jack doing that, constantly upholding and signalling their love over the years, and yet, like the song, qualifying and
cloaking the possible depth of the love.  Dancing around the central issue, always leaving an avenue of escape, if not loved as much in return.
Of no use, tonight, but did want to thank you for saving my hide, several times, from posts I had made that were not so orderly as they should
have been.  It's usually tpe who does the mercy work when I get unreadable.

[lancecowboy]

    Don't know about trying for a textbook-not qualified.  But, Lance, I sure do appreciate it when you and I accidentally collaborate, as in,
I do an ungainly, complicated post and, to my great relief, you untangle it.  I go---phew, saved by Lance.
   Anyway, am not up to much of value on this topic tonight.  Have been wallowing in old, romantic songs.  The latest- "If I Loved You..", from
one of those older Broadway shows.  In the song, he expresses the greatest of all loves, but hides behind the tentative, qualifying  "if".
And I see Ennis and Jack doing that, constantly upholding and signalling their love over the years, and yet, like the song, qualifying and
cloaking the possible depth of the love.  Dancing around the central issue, always leaving an avenue of escape, if not loved as much in return.
Of no use, tonight, but did want to thank you for saving my hide, several times, from posts I had made that were not so orderly as they should
have been.  It's usually tpe who does the mercy work when I get unreadable.

Goodness gracious, Tony, I didn't do much, and certainly not up to the scholarly standard that tpe puts into his classical posts. Your post was well organized and eloquent, perhaps not up to your own demanding standards, but certainly up to par.

I love what you write about Ennis and Jack dancing around their love for each other, with so many hypothetical and euphemistically speaking hyperbole.  They don't say much about their feelings for each other, but they keep hinting at it, waiting for the other to pick up the cue and make the commitment. When Jack took the plunge by the river, he got shot down. All the hinting and dancing kept their relationship going, but also stressed Jack to no end. Poor Jack.

You mentioned a bout of PBS recently. Old romantic songs may not be the best medicine. I hope they don't have the same effect on you as Kenny Chesney on me. I found Josh Groban's spiritually uplifting songs, and Ronan Keating's honest insight into relationships to be much better shields against PBS. Just my two cents worth.

Hope you feel better.

[tpe]

LC, you have just hit on exactly why I love Jack. He loved one person steadfastly his whole adult life. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't particularly sophisticated. For him, it was simple - I love Ennis, everything revolves around that.


I wish I could believe a little bit more the rest of what you say, but I just don't see it happening. I don't know that there was anything Jack could say to unlock Ennis's resistance to having a life together. Not his resistance to Jack, which was obviously shattered years before, but to the idea that they had any viable options. It's easy to be frustrated with Ennis, but it's also part of why I feel so protective towards him, and hurt for him so much. He was bound by lessons that were just too deeply ingrained to be able to see around. This is also why I love him - because, even with all of that going on inside of him, he did, as you pointed out, sacrifice and make the effort to keep seeing Jack all those years.

I don't see Jack as being overly self-centered or self-absorbed though (I know, no one is surprised by that ). Part of the reason that he is unaware of the magnitude of Ennis's sacrifice over the years is precisely because of that stoicism of Ennis's. The confrontation scene shows us, and them, just how little they each understand of the other's feelings - Jack doesn't realize how difficult this has been on Ennis, Ennis doesn't realize how much his resistance has hurt Jack. They've each been wrapped up in their own pain and personal frame of reference that they weren't able to see things from the other's eyes. This conversation was quite an awakening for both of them, I'm sure.

And you're absolutely right about two things:

- It's not all Ennis's fault. He's as much a victim of circumstance as Jack. It's just that he was the one who had the power to change things, in appearance. The reality is that he simply couldn't exercise that power, and he didn't even know he had it.

- "The irresistible force met the immovable object.

It was only after Jack's death, that the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain."


Beautifully said.

It was quite difficult to get Ennis, no?  That fact that Jack largely succeeded belies the inherent difficulty, IMO.

[ayasha]

There are so many topics in this thread...I'd like to comment many of all them, but I don't know where to start: this is like a tree branching all the time, and I'm not as fast! Anyway I agree with most of the opinion, and even when I don't, the arguments are beautifully and also consistently explained   

I don't see Jack as being overly self-centered or self-absorbed though (I know, no one is surprised by that ). Part of the reason that he is unaware of the magnitude of Ennis's sacrifice over the years is precisely because of that stoicism of Ennis's. The confrontation scene shows us, and them, just how little they each understand of the other's feelings - Jack doesn't realize how difficult this has been on Ennis, Ennis doesn't realize how much his resistance has hurt Jack. They've each been wrapped up in their own pain and personal frame of reference that they weren't able to see things from the other's eyes. This conversation was quite an awakening for both of them, I'm sure.

I don't think Jack was self centered either, but the opposite, I think he's patient and generous, and gives the best of him, for 20 years to make their relationship work. IMO this is because he understands, better than anyone else Ennis' handicaps, that's why I think Jack knows what Ennis's going through, and that's why he's understanding, subtle and extremely tactful, trying to convince Ennis to get 'a sweet life together'. Maybe I'm going agaisnt the mainstream here, but IMO, Jack is in touch with his emotions, his capability for communication is much higher than Ennis'. In many scenes, I find Jack's dealing skilfully with the circumstances...I don't know if I'm explaining my point clearly   I've got the feeling that when speaking about emotions, Jack is an adult trying to be careful with the emotions of a kid...Hope this won't be misunderstood.

But we must take into account that after 20 years, he can lose this control, he's a human being, his patience is not infinite, he's tired, frustrated, deeply sad, and I'm sure that many times, he's got doubts about Ennis' feelings. Maybe, for the 1st time in 20 years Jack is starting to lose his unwearying faith in Ennis, that's why Jack tries to take him to the limit, show him a true possibility of losing him, “a way to rouse Ennis into action” as tpe said.

[ayasha]

 

I am sorry to be harsh on Jack here, but it's not all of Ennis' fault.

His innate stoicism made the situation worse. If he had needed to be with Jack more often, Jack might have been able to convince him to move in together sooner. The irresistible force met the immovable object.

It was only after Jack's death, that the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain.

You're right my friend, it's not Ennis fault either. Despite all I've just said about Jack, it doesn't mean we can put the blame in Ennis. No way.

We have spoken about it in other threads right? IMO, Ennis has suffered the “abandonment” of everyone he’s ever loved when he was a kid, when he was very vulnerable: In those moments every experience leaves a deep trace in our personality… those traces become our second nature. Only with a lot of help and a lot of self analysis, we can be aware of them. That wasn’t Ennis case, of course.

Tony said “he (Ennis) learned to survive by keeping to himself.  And along comes Jack, a direct threat to that way of life”  I totally agree with that, and I must add, this way of life was, as I said above, his second nature. Not a habit, not a conscious decision, that attitude was himself. That’s why he says ‘it’s because of you that I’m nothing, I’m nowhere’: He’s betraying all his mind patterns, his self-concept, his so called values, opinions…

Ennis’ resistance to a sweet life is not cowardice, it’s the fear of alienation. By accepting he loves Jack, everything he is would crumble. How couldn’t we understand that disturbing scary possibility? He’ll need to wonder: who am I? The implications of that situation, for Ennis have existential proportions. No wonder he needs to protect himself against it, with all the weapons at his hand.

Ok this is getting too obscure, and I’ve already written too long, again sorryyyy...I’ll better finish this post here Thanks

[lancecowboy]

[...]

I don't think Jack was self centered either, but the opposite, I think he's patient and generous, and gives the best of him, for 20 years to make their relationship work. IMO this is because he understands, better than anyone else Ennis' handicaps, that's why I think Jack knows what Ennis's going through, and that's why he's understanding, subtle and extremely tactful, trying to convince Ennis to get 'a sweet life together'. Maybe I'm going agaisnt the mainstream here, but IMO, Jack is in touch with his emotions, his capability for communication is much higher than Ennis'. In many scenes, I find Jack's dealing skilfully with the circumstances...I don't know if I'm explaining my point clearly   I've got the feeling that when speaking about emotions, Jack is an adult trying to be careful with the emotions of a kid...Hope this won't be misunderstood.

But we must take into account that after 20 years, he can lose this control, he's a human being, his patience is not infinite, he's tired, frustrated, deeply sad, and I'm sure that many times, he's got doubts about Ennis' feelings. Maybe, for the 1st time in 20 years Jack is starting to lose his unwearying faith in Ennis, that's why Jack tries to take him to the limit, show him a true possibility of losing him, “a way to rouse Ennis into action” as tpe said.

I agree with you and am afraid that I was misunderstood. I agree that Jack had been patient and kind throughout the beginning of their 20 years together. I was referring ONLY to their last meeting, and perhaps after the divorce scene, the Mexico scene, the Thanksgiving scene. There was a progressive trend for Jack to become more self-centered and alienated from Ennis. Not that I blame him. He had been a saint until Ennis kicked him in the gut with the divorce scene, etc. And as I explained, trying to rouse someone into action by using someone else, to induce jealousy, or whatever, is simply wrong. To threaten ending the relationship is more viable, and Ennis will probably respond better. Problem is, Jack did not want to end it either. His "I wish I knew how to quit you" is exactly the sentiment, the short leash that he spoke of, not of Ennis' doing, but his own desires.

And I agree with you that Jack had been the adult in the relationship, treating Ennis' child gently, until the last few years. IMO.

[lancecowboy]

You're right my friend, it's not Ennis fault either. Despite all I've just said about Jack, it doesn't mean we can put the blame in Ennis. No way.

We have spoken about it in other threads right? IMO, Ennis has suffered the “abandonment” of everyone he’s ever loved when he was a kid, when he was very vulnerable: In those moments every experience leaves a deep trace in our personality… those traces become our second nature. Only with a lot of help and a lot of self analysis, we can be aware of them. That wasn’t Ennis case, of course.

Tony said “he (Ennis) learned to survive by keeping to himself.  And along comes Jack, a direct threat to that way of life”  I totally agree with that, and I must add, this way of life was, as I said above, his second nature. Not a habit, not a conscious decision, that attitude was himself. That’s why he says ‘it’s because of you that I’m nothing, I’m nowhere’: He’s betraying all his mind patterns, his self-concept, his so called values, opinions…

Ennis’ resistance to a sweet life is not cowardice, it’s the fear of alienation. By accepting he loves Jack, everything he is would crumble. How couldn’t we understand that disturbing scary possibility? He’ll need to wonder: who am I? The implications of that situation, for Ennis have existential proportions. No wonder he needs to protect himself against it, with all the weapons at his hand.

Ok this is getting too obscure, and I’ve already written too long, again sorryyyy...I’ll better finish this post here Thanks

Not at all, dear friend. You are very clear, and I appreciate the excellent analysis. I agree that Ennis was not the kind of person who had a lot of help and a lot of self-analysis to understand his fear of alienation, etc. He was who he was, yet he accepted his love for Jack, even unspoken. I don't think he wanted to protect himself from Jack. That part of your post I disagree with. I agree that he did not perceive himself as queer, and therefore would not pursue the lifestyle that Jack proposed. He would only accept Jack on his own term, however distorted it may be, it is his reality.

What makes the movie a treasure to me, is precisely the self-discovery for Ennis, first at the diner with Cassie's "Girls don't fall in love with fun", and then the closet with the two shirts. The resulting transformation for the man, as seen in his ability to related to Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr in the trailer, is a fantastic testimonial for the benefits of self-awareness, self-understanding, self-analysis.

[ayasha]

I agree with you and am afraid that I was misunderstood. I agree that Jack had been patient and kind throughout the beginning of their 20 years together. I was referring ONLY to their last meeting, and perhaps after the divorce scene, the Mexico scene, the Thanksgiving scene. There was a progressive trend for Jack to become more self-centered and alienated from Ennis. Not that I blame him. He had been a saint until Ennis kicked him in the gut with the divorce scene, etc. And as I explained, trying to rouse someone into action by using someone else, to induce jealousy, or whatever, is simply wrong. To threaten ending the relationship is more viable, and Ennis will probably respond better. Problem is, Jack did not want to end it either. His "I wish I knew how to quit you" is exactly the sentiment, the short leash that he spoke of, not of Ennis' doing, but his own desires.

I think we meant the same but we're facing the argument from different perspective Perhaps some words are backhanded...I just meant that Jack, looking for his interests after 20 years had no negative connotation: 'self-centered' seems to me a negative expresion, but it's something you have to be sometimes, for the sake of the relationshìp.

[ayasha]

Not at all, dear friend. You are very clear, and I appreciate the excellent analysis. I agree that Ennis was not the kind of person who had a lot of help and a lot of self-analysis to understand his fear of alienation, etc. He was who he was, yet he accepted his love for Jack, even unspoken. I don't think he wanted to protect himself from Jack. That part of your post I disagree with. I agree that he did not perceive himself as queer, and therefore would not pursue the lifestyle that Jack proposed. He would only accept Jack on his own term, however distorted it may be, it is his reality

This time I was misunderstood...I didn't mean he wants to protect himself from Jack, but from "the nothing and nowhere", I don't know if I was clear at that...

He accepts Jack, as you said, in a distorted way, in order to protect his reality, the only reality he's ever known. Without that reality, without that distorsion, 'he's nothing and nowhere'

What makes the movie a treasure to me, is precisely the self-discovery for Ennis, first at the diner with Cassie's "Girls don't fall in love with fun", and then the closet with the two shirts. The resulting transformation for the man, as seen in his ability to related to Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr in the trailer, is a fantastic testimonial for the benefits of self-awareness, self-understanding, self-analysis.

Here I agree 100% with you...After 20 years, and a big shock, Ennis is able to reach self awareness, to do this self analysis: "the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain" as you beautifully said 

[tpe]

What makes the movie a treasure to me, is precisely the self-discovery for Ennis, first at the diner with Cassie's "Girls don't fall in love with fun", and then the closet with the two shirts. The resulting transformation for the man, as seen in his ability to related to Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr in the trailer, is a fantastic testimonial for the benefits of self-awareness, self-understanding, self-analysis.

Agreed, especially with the scenes you mention here.  Even though I think that there was still fear within Ennis by the end of the movie, I do believe that he was no longer afraid of his love for Jack.  Does this make sense?

[tpe]

This time I was misunderstood...I didn't mean he wants to protect himself from Jack, but from "the nothing and nowhere", I don't know if I was clear at that...

He accepts Jack, as you said, in a distorted way, in order to protect his reality, the only reality he's ever known. Without that reality, without that distorsion, 'he's nothing and nowhere'

An interesting point of view.  I must admit that I didn't look at it this way, but this certainly makes sense.  I had always wonderedd if I had missed something in Ennis's outburst in the last confrontation.  I had always taken that statement from Ennis at face value -- that he had done nothing with his life.

[lancecowboy]

I think we meant the same but we're facing the argument from different perspective Perhaps some words are backhanded...I just meant that Jack, looking for his interests after 20 years had no negative connotation: 'self-centered' seems to me a negative expresion, but it's something you have to be sometimes, for the sake of the relationshìp.

I am not sure I understand the meaning of backhanded words. Perhaps you can be so kind to explain its meaning.

As for the negative connotation of self-centered, there isn't any until the context is specified. As you said, sometimes it is necessary to be self-centered to protect the relationship, as in this case with Jack.

I guess in a way, I did perceive a "LITTLE" of negative selfishness (which always has negative connotations). Ennis is so used to doing the little things for Jack, like at their last scene, with Ennis helping Jack with his saddle to the truck, almost in an attitude of servitude. And Jack took it for granted, without even a word of thanks. And cowboy or not, there was less and less affection between them, unlike 'em earlier days when they would horseplay on the mountain and joke with each other. Now they just complain about this or that. Mostly Jack complaining and Ennis agreeing. It was a relationship getting poisoned by Jack's increasing feeling of rejection from Ennis, whether perceived or real. Not that I blame Jack, just the reality of a long-distance relationship carried on over thousands of miles.

So a little shaking up was necessary. I guess it is easy as armchair lovers to say what Jack and Ennis should have done to make their relationship better. It is a lot harder to make love work. And the tragedy of it all, is that Ennis was almost there, when Jack was killed. Ennis had a lot of help from Cassie, whether he or she knew it or not. She was emotionally Ennis' teacher.

[lancecowboy]

[...]
What makes the movie a treasure to me, is precisely the self-discovery for Ennis, first at the diner with Cassie's "Girls don't fall in love with fun", and then the closet with the two shirts. The resulting transformation for the man, as seen in his ability to related to Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr in the trailer, is a fantastic testimonial for the benefits of self-awareness, self-understanding, self-analysis.

Agreed, especially with the scenes you mention here.  Even though I think that there was still fear within Ennis by the end of the movie, I do believe that he was no longer afraid of his love for Jack.  Does this make sense?

I don't believe Ennis was ever afraid of his love for Jack after SNIT. He was only afraid of the lifestyle and social consequences of that lifestyle. By the reunion scene, any doubt of his love for Jack has evaporated. Ennis was hooked. Jack was hooked. They were Brokeback Mountained.

The trouble was Ennis did not have an alternative to how to handle it. Jack's question in the motel scene, "what do we do now?" was never satisfactorily answered in Ennis' mind. He was always stuck. Not until he met Cassie, and Jack's Ma, was he able to accept that love in the social sense, because he finally felt accepted, as a person, without condition. Cassie showed him that he was loved, in spite of all the things he did to her (not answering her calls, etc) and Jack's Ma simple was compassion and love personified. He had no place to hide from them, and finally faced up to the two shirts. It was a culmination of a long journey of self-discovery.

[lancecowboy]

This time I was misunderstood...I didn't mean he wants to protect himself from Jack, but from "the nothing and nowhere", I don't know if I was clear at that...

He accepts Jack, as you said, in a distorted way, in order to protect his reality, the only reality he's ever known. Without that reality, without that distorsion, 'he's nothing and nowhere'

[...]

Yes, I agree and sorry that I misunderstood. I see what you mean now. Are you referring to the feeling he got when they parted back in '63, when Ennis got that empty feeling, he got sick in the alley. His loneliness became so overwhelming, that he was nothing, he was nowhere. He had so embedded his own identity with Jack, that without Jack, he was nothing and nowhere. If he had moved in with Jack, as Jack had wanted, then he would be even more dependent on Jack. He was afraid of that, as evident by the riverside dish washing scene when Jack told him to move to Texas, and he retorted with why not have you and Lureen adopt the girls etc. He wanted independence, which cowboy doesn't?, and he was more and more embedded into this relationship with Jack that by his nature, loving and lonely, he was afraid of losing his own identity, however distorted. On Brokeback Mountain, he is always the better cowboy, the man. Jack was dependent on him for many things. So the relationship was at least temporarily and circumstantially in balance. Outside of that, Jack became more and more dominant, financially and emotionally, so Ennis was even more afraid. In someway, Ennis never fully trusted Jack.

In any relationship, trust is always difficult. Jack's foray into Mexico, etc, did not help the situation. It is not a matter of blame; it is a matter of taking responsibility for one's own actions. There may be reasons for what Jack had done, but at the same time, to just excuse the actions would not help the relationship, either. Ennis was afraid of losing Jack, and facing the nothingness again. Jack did not alleviate that fear but made it worse in that last scene. When Ennis found the two shirts, after a long grieving period, he finally learned to trust Jack.

 

[lancecowboy]

This time I was misunderstood...I didn't mean he wants to protect himself from Jack, but from "the nothing and nowhere", I don't know if I was clear at that...

He accepts Jack, as you said, in a distorted way, in order to protect his reality, the only reality he's ever known. Without that reality, without that distorsion, 'he's nothing and nowhere'

[...]

An interesting point of view.  I must admit that I didn't look at it this way, but this certainly makes sense.  I had always wonderedd if I had missed something in Ennis's outburst in the last confrontation.  I had always taken that statement from Ennis at face value -- that he had done nothing with his life.

Yup. It's what I love about this forum. Everyone brings something different, and I always learn something new and valuable.

Thanks, ayashae. 

[tpe]

I don't believe Ennis was ever afraid of his love for Jack after SNIT. He was only afraid of the lifestyle and social consequences of that lifestyle. By the reunion scene, any doubt of his love for Jack has evaporated. Ennis was hooked. Jack was hooked. They were Brokeback Mountained.

The trouble was Ennis did not have an alternative to how to handle it. Jack's question in the motel scene, "what do we do now?" was never satisfactorily answered in Ennis' mind. He was always stuck. Not until he met Cassie, and Jack's Ma, was he able to accept that love in the social sense, because he finally felt accepted, as a person, without condition. Cassie showed him that he was loved, in spite of all the things he did to her (not answering her calls, etc) and Jack's Ma simple was compassion and love personified. He had no place to hide from them, and finally faced up to the two shirts. It was a culmination of a long journey of self-discovery.

I had wondered though about the meanings one can pin on Ennis's statements: "It's you that made me like this", etc. during the last confrontation.  I had always felt that there was a part of Ennis that tried to distance itself from the love of Jack.  I think I talked about this with you somewhere else, no?  Earlier in thie thread, perhaps?  I must check! 

But I agree that then fear also carried a socila dimension -- of the wider world's disapproval.  But I somehow felt that there was also something inside him that also disapproved. 

[ayasha]

I think we meant the same but we're facing the argument from different perspective Perhaps some words are backhanded...I just meant that Jack, looking for his interests after 20 years had no negative connotation: 'self-centered' seems to me a negative expresion, but it's something you have to be sometimes, for the sake of the relationshìp.

I am not sure I understand the meaning of backhanded words. Perhaps you can be so kind to explain its meaning.
As for the negative connotation of self-centered, there isn't any until the context is specified. As you said, sometimes it is necessary to be self-centered to protect the relationship, as in this case with Jack.

I've just read my paragraph again, and you're right, it's not clear. What I meant was simpler than that: After 20 years being mostly altruistic, a bit of selfishness was good to balance the situation

As regards the negative connotation of 'self centered': When I translated that expresion, didn't sound good to me   That's why I didn't like those words. But it was just a subjective perception...Actually I didn't know which is the connotation of that expresion in English but, if you said that it depends on the context, I take it for granted

[ayasha]

Guys, your last posts have made me noticed of something about Ennis that I hadn't seen before

I have to go now, but I'll post a bit later...Hope the discussion won't develop too much or I'll get lost again! 

[FlwrChild]

Yes, I agree and sorry that I misunderstood. I see what you mean now. Are you referring to the feeling he got when they parted back in '63, when Ennis got that empty feeling, he got sick in the alley. His loneliness became so overwhelming, that he was nothing, he was nowhere. He had so embedded his own identity with Jack, that without Jack, he was nothing and nowhere. If he had moved in with Jack, as Jack had wanted, then he would be even more dependent on Jack. He was afraid of that, as evident by the riverside dish washing scene when Jack told him to move to Texas, and he retorted with why not have you and Lureen adopt the girls etc. He wanted independence, which cowboy doesn't?, and he was more and more embedded into this relationship with Jack that by his nature, loving and lonely, he was afraid of losing his own identity, however distorted. On Brokeback Mountain, he is always the better cowboy, the man. Jack was dependent on him for many things. So the relationship was at least temporarily and circumstantially in balance. Outside of that, Jack became more and more dominant, financially and emotionally, so Ennis was even more afraid. In someway, Ennis never fully trusted Jack.

In any relationship, trust is always difficult. Jack's foray into Mexico, etc, did not help the situation. It is not a matter of blame; it is a matter of taking responsibility for one's own actions. There may be reasons for what Jack had done, but at the same time, to just excuse the actions would not help the relationship, either. Ennis was afraid of losing Jack, and facing the nothingness again. Jack did not alleviate that fear but made it worse in that last scene. When Ennis found the two shirts, after a long grieving period, he finally learned to trust Jack.

 

Wow. I have to admit that I don't see it that way at all. It's just not my interpretation of things, but I find your analysis fascinating nevertheless. Thanks for sharing. As you said, everyone brings something different to the discussions and I love hearing all of the theories and insights.
 

[FlwrChild]

I had wondered though about the meanings one can pin on Ennis's statements: "It's you that made me like this", etc. during the last confrontation.  I had always felt that there was a part of Ennis that tried to distance itself from the love of Jack.  I think I talked about this with you somewhere else, no?  Earlier in thie thread, perhaps?  I must check! 

But I agree that then fear also carried a socila dimension -- of the wider world's disapproval.  But I somehow felt that there was also something inside him that also disapproved. 

I agree, Thomas. As much as a big part of his heart was unlocked by both SNIT and the reunion, I don't think that Ennis was fully freed of his inner battle until Jack died. The force of that knowledge and how he felt about it, followed by the discovery of the shirts, put the final piece in place for him, imo.