Topic: When Jack got mad...

[tpe]

But Lureen was not privy to what Alma was.

Exactly, which was certainly most convenient foer him, no?  The fact that they had ceased togenuinely love each other after a while made it a pure marriage of convenience.  Jack could do whatever he wanted and still had the family business to support him.  Lureen had a good salesman and a token husband to take her to socials, etc.  Is this too cynical?

We are not sure if she even suspected. It's his life, Ennis approving of it shoud'nt matter after some point.  Jack would get mad and live a life of constant frustration , but continue on the same path. He wanted a little cow-calf operation and wanted Ennis to share , but that was'nt happening. I just feel he had options other than the approach he took.  But why stay in the marriage? when he had the chance to break free? To trade convenience for happiness does'nt make sense to me.

It looked to me that she never suspected -- she was too engrossed in the business to really care, I think.  Hence, her surprise in the phone conversation with Ennis.

Jack getting mad during the final confrontation shows his frustration primarily with Ennis, I believe.  At that point, he had really ceased to care about Lureen.  As was hinted at by Jack's father when Ennis visited LF, he was all to ready to divorce Lureen at any time.  But so long as Ennis refused, he saw no reason to change because the root of his frustration lay with Ennis and not with Lureen.

[tpe]

I agree with the smowkescreen but what's about Billy?  There a short scene in the movie about Jack asking Lureen to call the school about their son, it's more clear in the book that Jack is concerned about his son... at that time divorce mean in most cases kids stay with mothers.  He might have say also he didn't want kids (in the SS) but I'm quite sure he loved Bobby and cared for him (still from the SS, his concerns about Bobby's dislexia).  He probably wnated to stay around Bobby because of LD's influence too.

I do think he loved Bobby, but I suspect that Jack would have sacrified even him for a life with Ennis.  In the end, perhaps a gulf had opened up between father and son, on account of the in-laws and Lureen.  It would seem that he was prepared to give up Lureeen and Bobby to go with Randall.  So again, Jack's anger and frustration was more on hir relationship with Ennis going nowhere -- he didn't seem to worry too much about what it would mean for himself and his family, if he and Ennis did finally get together.



 

[myprivatejack]

Exactly, which was certainly most convenient foer him, no?  The fact that they had ceased togenuinely love each other after a while made it a pure marriage of convenience.  Jack could do whatever he wanted and still had the family business to support him.  Lureen had a good salesman and a token husband to take her to socials, etc.  Is this too cynical?



It looked to me that she never suspected -- she was too engrossed in the business to really care, I think.  Hence, her surprise in the phone conversation with Ennis.

Jack getting mad during the final confrontation shows his frustration primarily with Ennis, I believe.  At that point, he had really ceased to care about Lureen.  As was hinted at by Jack's father when Ennis visited LF, he was all to ready to divorce Lureen at any time.  But so long as Ennis refused, he saw no reason to change because the root of his frustration lay with Ennis and not with Lureen.

Yes,I also think that the root of all Jack's frustration and former anger's burst was his not always easy relationship with Ennis.His marriage was the already said "smokescreen" altogether with a social respectability in all the senses; for me,that gives a reason to Jack's life,at least in what material aspects regards specially.However,in what concerns to Bobby,I tend to agree with Cham in that,meanwhile he couldn´t obtain anything better from life,one of the good things of his patience could be avoiding, as it was possible, an excessive influence over the boy on LD's part.Jack had to win some points in his husband's role and,when this wasn't possible before Lureen's eyes,all what remained to him was to have authority as a father before Bobby's eyes.It's to say,not losing everything...Because the greatest Jack's struggle-letting aside the "sweet life together"-had always been gaining other people's trust in his possibilities: with his father,his father-in-law,his wife,his son...That's one of the reason why he fell for Ennis; he admired and valued him for what he was,and trusted in him as nobody before and nobody after.

[babytammy7]

Yes,I also think that the root of all Jack's frustration and former anger's burst was his not always easy relationship with Ennis.His marriage was the already said "smokescreen" altogether with a social respectability in all the senses; for me,that gives a reason to Jack's life,at least in what material aspects regards specially.However,in what concerns to Bobby,I tend to agree with Cham in that,meanwhile he couldn´t obtain anything better from life,one of the good things of his patience could be avoiding, as it was possible, an excessive influence over the boy on LD's part.Jack had to win some points in his husband's role and,when this wasn't possible before Lureen's eyes,all what remained to him was to have authority as a father before Bobby's eyes.It's to say,not losing everything...Because the greatest Jack's struggle-letting aside the "sweet life together"-had always been gaining other people's trust in his possibilities: with his father,his father-in-law,his wife,his son...That's one of the reason why he fell for Ennis; he admired and valued him for what he was,and trusted in him as nobody before and nobody after.

Totally agree, Ali!!! Beautiful post. 

[myprivatejack]

Totally agree, Ali!!! Beautiful post. 

dear.But what´s sure is that Jack is also a complex character,even if Ennis has more nuances.

[tpe]

Yes,I also think that the root of all Jack's frustration and former anger's burst was his not always easy relationship with Ennis.His marriage was the already said "smokescreen" altogether with a social respectability in all the senses; for me,that gives a reason to Jack's life,at least in what material aspects regards specially.However,in what concerns to Bobby,I tend to agree with Cham in that,meanwhile he couldn´t obtain anything better from life,one of the good things of his patience could be avoiding, as it was possible, an excessive influence over the boy on LD's part.Jack had to win some points in his husband's role and,when this wasn't possible before Lureen's eyes,all what remained to him was to have authority as a father before Bobby's eyes.It's to say,not losing everything...Because the greatest Jack's struggle-letting aside the "sweet life together"-had always been gaining other people's trust in his possibilities: with his father,his father-in-law,his wife,his son...That's one of the reason why he fell for Ennis; he admired and valued him for what he was,and trusted in him as nobody before and nobody after.

I think the issue with Bobby is slightly more simple than say the case between Ennis and his daughters.   Although he colved him, it looked to me that he was willing to give up proximity in order to be with Ennis, because he dreamed of leaving Texas and going back to LF, no?

So, Jack's anger was directed more at his inability to move on from what was clearly a done-deal for him, IMO.  He seemed to have looked at things a bit more simplistically: drop everything in order to be with Ennis.

 

[Matt Nasty]

I think the issue with Bobby is slightly more simple than say the case between Ennis and his daughters.   Although he colved him, it looked to me that he was willing to give up proximity in order to be with Ennis, because he dreamed of leaving Texas and going back to LF, no?

So, Jack's anger was directed more at his inability to move on from what was clearly a done-deal for him, IMO.  He seemed to have looked at things a bit more simplistically: drop everything in order to be with Ennis.

 

hmmmm  i think i agree.

[Scott6373]

For me his anger was very simple.  It was out of frustration...at nearly everything in his life.  Nothing in his life had turned out the way he wanted it to (even though he could only say those things Ennis...and only once at that), which ironically is a sentiment that Ennis verbalized.  He certainly could never tell his wife how he envisioned his life turning out.  He couldn't tell MT or OMT...what he was experiencing was much like all folks in their late 30's-mid40's experience;  The feeling of being jipped or cheated out of the life they wanted.

[aintfoolin]

 i totally agree. His anger stemmed from frustration of not getting what he wanted out of life. So many ostacles and no real outlet to voice that frustration except with Ennis. Wether it was Agirre's rules, his relationship with his father, to not eating beans it was always  Ennis he used for his sounding board. 

I do think he loved and cared about his son, but the fact that he was willing to leave them in a moment's notice had Ennis said yes speaks to a distant lonliness at home. Lureen did'nt even attempt to defend him against being called a "pissant" by one of their clients. This was  her husband for goodness sake! He was convienient for the business, but beyond that, their partnership left much to be desired.

[tpe]

For me his anger was very simple.  It was out of frustration...at nearly everything in his life.  Nothing in his life had turned out the way he wanted it to (even though he could only say those things Ennis...and only once at that), which ironically is a sentiment that Ennis verbalized.  He certainly could never tell his wife how he envisioned his life turning out.  He couldn't tell MT or OMT...what he was experiencing was much like all folks in their late 30's-mid40's experience;  The feeling of being jipped or cheated out of the life they wanted.

i totally agree. His anger stemmed from frustration of not getting what he wanted out of life. So many ostacles and no real outlet to voice that frustration except with Ennis. Wether it was Agirre's rules, his relationship with his father, to not eating beans it was always  Ennis he used for his sounding board. 

I do think he loved and cared about his son, but the fact that he was willing to leave them in a moment's notice had Ennis said yes speaks to a distant lonliness at home. Lureen did'nt even attempt to defend him against being called a "pissant" by one of their clients. This was  her husband for goodness sake! He was convienient for the business, but beyond that, their partnership left much to be desired.

I also agree, for all the outward look of prosperity and "success", Jack understood that he had been living a sham life all those years.  I would even suggest that some of the anger and frustration he felt was also directed at himself, for not trying harder to make his dream a reality.  He was at the border of no longer giving in -- playing hardball, with Ennis, we might say...

[Scott6373]

I would even suggest that some of the anger and frustration he felt was also directed at himself, for not trying harder to make his dream a reality.

The sad part, and only we know this as readers/viewers, is that there was no amount of trying Jack could have done to change the direction of his relationship with Ennis.  It simply was not going to happen, and trust me on this one, we humans don't like to let go of those kinds of dreams easily, if at all.  If I were Jack's friend, I would have told him:  "Better to love a good memory, than love alone."

He was at the border of no longer giving in -- playing hardball, with Ennis, we might say...

I am of the opinion that Jack had no intention of ever seeing Ennis again after their last meeting.  This probably would not have actually come to fruition (see my comment above), but I do believe that was fully and righteously his intention.

[tpe]

The sad part, and only we know this as readers/viewers, is that there was no amount of trying Jack could have done to change the direction of his relationship with Ennis.  It simply was not going to happen, and trust me on this one, we humans don't like to let go of those kinds of dreams easily, if at all.  If I were Jack's friend, I would have told him:  "Better to love a good memory, than love alone."

I am of the opinion that Jack had no intention of ever seeing Ennis again after their last meeting.  This probably would not have actually come to fruition (see my comment above), but I do believe that was fully and righteously his intention.

Certainly, I felt that in the end of the Last Confrontation, Jack looked like he was resolved to move on.  But I wonder/speculate whether this resolve can actually last, especially if he moved back to LF, and be in closer proximity with Ennis.  I think this is exactly how you feel...

And yes, I think that Jack had realized that there were things that were beyond the power of changing, and his last look in the final confrontation seems to suggest weariness and resignation -- of some final defeat, I would dare say.

[Scott6373]

And yes, I think that Jack had realized that there were things that were beyond the power of changing, and his last look in the final confrontation seems to suggest weariness and resignation -- of some final defeat, I would dare say.

I wasn't always of this opinion however.  Recently though, I have found myself in the unenviable postion of having to walk away from love because it would not have ever worked.  It doesn't devalue the quality of the love, it just means that you are loving yourself more than the dream.  It's sad, but it shows (on Jack's part at least) a willingness to work on becoming the man he was born to be; a fact that makes his death even harder to reconcile.

[Matt Nasty]

Certainly, I felt that in the end of the Last Confrontation, Jack looked like he was resolved to move on.  But I wonder/speculate whether this resolve can actually last, especially if he moved back to LF, and be in closer proximity with Ennis.  I think this is exactly how you feel...

And yes, I think that Jack had realized that there were things that were beyond the power of changing, and his last look in the final confrontation seems to suggest weariness and resignation -- of some final defeat, I would dare say.

i dont know maybe its just me but i never seen the final confrontation that way i seen it just them getting things into the open. i think If jack hadnt died and the post card from ennis about november had arived i think jack would have been going to see ennis without hesitation, JMO

[FlwrChild]

Scott, I've walked in those shoes too.

And Thomas, I do agree about the weariness and resignation, and even the final defeat. But, like Matt, and following the original SS, I don't think Jack was ready to move on yet. Wished he was, maybe, but I believe he would have been there in November. What might have happened after that, we'll never know.

[Matt Nasty]

Scott, I've walked in those shoes too.

And Thomas, I do agree about the weariness and resignation, and even the final defeat. But, like Matt, and following the original SS, I don't think Jack was ready to move on yet. Wished he was, maybe, but I believe he would have been there in November. What might have happened after that, we'll never know.

also something that makes me even more think jack wasnt going to move on was when he said "I wish i knew how to quit you" he wished he knew but he didnt something in that suggests to me jack knew he couldnt move on from ennis.

[Scott6373]

Oh I fully agree that Jack may have ended up going back to Ennis in November...it took me 6 months to fully break free...I kept going back even when I knew it wasn't good for either one of us.  Eventually though, Jack would have stopped I think...probably too late in his life...which is a situation I wished to avoid.

[tpe]

Scott, I've walked in those shoes too.

Same here.

And Thomas, I do agree about the weariness and resignation, and even the final defeat. But, like Matt, and following the original SS, I don't think Jack was ready to move on yet. Wished he was, maybe, but I believe he would have been there in November. What might have happened after that, we'll never know.

Fair enough.  I had admitted before that I go back and forth on this, although I feel that the last look indicates a loss of hope, even though the love endured.

[Scott6373]

Oh I fully agree that Jack may have ended up going back to Ennis in November...it took me 6 months to fully break free...I kept going back even when I knew it wasn't good for either one of us.  Eventually though, Jack would have stopped I think...probably too late in his life...which is a situation I wished to avoid.

I hate quoting myself...but better than editing...

That is why I think Jack was an angry man...I felt that anger rising up from resentment and hurt, and knew that it had to end for both our sakes.

[FlwrChild]

Thomas, there is a lot in that last look, isn't there?

And Scott, I know what you mean. I just don't think that Jack was at that point in his heart yet. It can take a long time to go from feeling those things to acting on them.


I wonder which would make me sadder - Jack dying without ever fulling resolving his relationship with Ennis or Jack living long enough to lose that love and finally break free of the love that was both sustaining him and killing him slowly.

[tpe]

I hate quoting myself...but better than editing...

That is why I think Jack was an angry man...I felt that anger rising up from resentment and hurt, and knew that it had to end for both our sakes.

I did feal that there was an element of sacrifice in that parting.

[tpe]

Thomas, there is a lot in that last look, isn't there?

A LOT! 

And Scott, I know what you mean. I just don't think that Jack was at that point in his heart yet. It can take a long time to go from feeling those things to acting on them.


I wonder which would make me sadder - Jack dying without ever fulling resolving his relationship with Ennis or Jack living long enough to lose that love and finally break free of the love that was both sustaining him and killing him slowly.

I think he would have preferred dying unfulfilled than having recourse to the latter. 

[FlwrChild]

Me too Thomas. 

[Matt Nasty]

me three

but me possibly in my naivity i still think Ennis and jack would have kept meeting forever and nothing could have stopped that but anyway this is probably way OT so ill shut up lol.

[athena0204]

me three

but me possibly in my naivity i still think Ennis and jack would have kept meeting forever and nothing could have stopped that but anyway this is probably way OT so ill shut up lol.

No, Matt. It's not naivety. Their love was so true and deep that nothing could ever break it. I have a question, though. I'm a little confused on the time line...the last time they met  before Jack's death, when Ennis said he couldn't see Jack again until November instead of August...the year was 1982, but what was the month when they last saw each other? And when does Jack actually die (or get killed, as I believe happened)?

[FlwrChild]

athena, if I recall correctly (I'd have to check), the timeline is slightly different in the movie than in the original SS, so it's a little confusing. I finally chose not to get too caught up on the year and to just concentrate on the months, as you asked about.

My sense is that it was late winter/early spring when they had their final trip (because Jack was complaining about the cold), and this was why Jack was upset about losing August - waiting 'til November would mean more months apart. As to when Jack died, that too is somewhat unclear. All we know for sure is that it was sometime between that last meet and November, and long enough past for Ennis's postcard to be returned and Jack's ashes to be distributed between Texas and Lightning Flat.

[athena0204]

athena, if I recall correctly (I'd have to check), the timeline is slightly different in the movie than in the original SS, so it's a little confusing. I finally chose not to get too caught up on the year and to just concentrate on the months, as you asked about.

My sense is that it was late winter/early spring when they had their final trip (because Jack was complaining about the cold), and this was why Jack was upset about losing August - waiting 'til November would mean more months apart. As to when Jack died, that too is somewhat unclear. All we know for sure is that it was sometime between that last meet and November, and long enough past for Ennis's postcard to be returned and Jack's ashes to be distributed between Texas and Lightning Flat.

So it was probably March of 1982? So Ennis finds out about Jack's death in the spring of 1983...about a year after he last saw him? So Ennis doesn't really find about Jack's death until months after it occurs.

[FlwrChild]

No, by my calculations, Ennis would have found out about Jack in the fall of the same year they last met. It was the postcard he'd sent to Jack to confirm meeting in November that was returned with the deceased stamp. So presumably it was sometime in October most likely. Because otherwise he would already have been to the meeting spot and known that something was up when Jack didn't show. So my guess is they met perhaps in March, Jack died in late spring or summer (I can't help wondering always if it happened in August, which just makes my heart hurt more ), and Ennis found out about it around October.

The scene with Junior in the movie is not meant, I believe, to be seen as right after the vist to LF, but after some time has passed since he brought the shirts home with him.

[athena0204]

No, by my calculations, Ennis would have found out about Jack in the fall of the same year they last met. It was the postcard he'd sent to Jack to confirm meeting in November that was returned with the deceased stamp. So presumably it was sometime in October most likely. Because otherwise he would already have been to the meeting spot and known that something was up when Jack didn't show. So my guess is they met perhaps in March, Jack died in late spring or summer (I can't help wondering always if it happened in August, which just makes my heart hurt more ), and Ennis found out about it around October.

The scene with Junior in the movie is not meant, I believe, to be seen as right after the vist to LF, but after some time has passed since he brought the shirts home with him.

Oh, okay I see. Jack must have died sometime between March and November of '82 or '83, depending on the actual year they last met. Probably around August, like you said. Then when Ennis finds out about it, it's most likely in the fall. The scene with Junior, then is a several weeks or perhaps a few months after Ennis's visit to Lightning Flat. Sorry, I get so confused when I try to figure out the time line.

[FlwrChild]

I know. Me too.