Author Topic: Buddhism: Ennis fears the "Thing" (1967); Jack's favorite memory of Ennis (1983)  (Read 59634 times)

Offline lamusica

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1874
  • Gender: Female
The problem with Ennis then was that he believed that stoicism would inevitably lead him to reject his own deep-seated passions.  IMO, Ennis's stoicism was not a rejection of the world of desire, as is understood in Buddhism.  Ironically, it is in the last scene when we see him come closest to this...



What you said, Thomas!
"Let's put a SSSSMILE on your faceeee!"

manhattangirl

  • Guest
The problem with Ennis then was that he believed that stoicism would inevitably lead him to reject his own deep-seated passions.  IMO, Ennis's stoicism was not a rejection of the world of desire, as is understood in Buddhism.  Ironically, it is in the last scene when we see him come closest to this...



Ennis's stocism to me was like the sin of pride, which cost him.  He learned Jack was more honest about who he was, and his love for him.   Ennis I think had a sense of  shame, a sense of letting Jack down sitting there in Jack's parents home.  Jack never denied him, or who he was to him. 

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Thanks lamusica and MG. 

I do think pride was at the root of Ennis's tragic flaw.  He was too proud to own up to who he truly was deep inside -- and his stoicism is therefore the root of the illusion he allowed himself to believe for so long -- that he could deny that love in spite of himself.

From a Buddhist perspective, one can say that the "shock" of love and the tragic end brought Ennis closer to an enlightenment of sorts... 




Offline lamusica

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1874
  • Gender: Female
I stgill have a bit of a problem thinking of Ennis as proud.  To me, the explanation of so much in his character relies on the poor self-image Ennis has.  I just feel his stoic actions are more out of fear than pride.  If he admits he has sexual feelings for another man, he is admitting he is gay and that is dangerous in his eyes, so, the safe thing to do is keep it all inside.  He dissembles in order to keep himself safe from pulic criticism and danger, and also from self-knowledge.  If you don't admit to yourself what you are, you cannot hate yourself for it.
"Let's put a SSSSMILE on your faceeee!"

Offline jetzenpolis

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Gender: Male
  • jetzenpolis
I agree with this. From the moment of the news that they had to bring the sheep down from Jack, There seemed to be a progression of anger that says Ennis was'nt ready to let go . Unprepared for what he knew what would eventually have to happen. The timing of the end was too abrupt for him to accept all at once, as he sees Jack packing, happening too fast.

Ennis leaves the scene to go sit on the hill alone. Perhaps to contemplate his situation and buy more time  to prepare himself. Jack was calm and almost non-chalant about it perhaps to relieve Ennis's panic, Jack's words "time to go cowboy" spelled the end  of his time with Jack.  Time was up and they had to move.,  his violence became the only communication he had. and what Jack thought was a playful wrestling match becomes a fight.

I feel he felt he could never verbally expresses the way he felt out loud to Jack. Helpless to stop the inevitable, with desperation, he lashes out , as if Jack does'nt get what he's feeling. ( I think Jack knew.)  A way to make Jack understand that he wanted more than anything to stay with him, not  marry a woman whom he cared for,  but was not in love with. He now knew what true love felt like, he no longer had  to find it in Alma. Ennis's demeanor  at the truck back in Signal and the breakdown in the alley, imo is evidence of what he preferred, not necessarily what said.  He'd already found  what he needed  in Jack. Indeed he did what society expected of him, does'nt mean he was satisfied with what he got. Who was still the one  for Ennis after 20 yrs? One guess.

I think your description aintfoolin of Ennis's anger (disappointment? despair? desperation?) being in a "progression" is very apt.  Something is going on during their wrestling play that turns very serious in Ennis.  He responds playfully at first when Jack lassos him but...

I agree with you that Ennis thought Jack was taking things too "nonchalant."  The words, "time to go cowboy" must have come as a shock of cold water to Ennis: Jack didn't mean anything by these words but Ennis "knew" that it was the end of their time on Brokeback Mountain.  The spell was broken. 

If Ennis was going to abide by his earlier words to Jack that this was a "one shot deal" (that he spoke to Jack the first evening after the night they had sex together for the first time in the cook camp tent), he knew that the time they had spent together on Brokeback Mountain was coming immediately to an end.  Ennis would be going back to marry Alma, start a family, and be who he thought (probably correctly) his conservative rural Wyoming society thought he should be: a married heterosexual man holding down a job to support a wife and family.

Then there was Jack.  Despite Ennis's belief that he could be the married heterosexual family man living the sort of life the Old West culture he saw himself a part of demanding of him, it would not give him what Jack could give him.  In fact, it could never give him what Jack could give him.

Remember that Ennis, at this point in the story, is unaware of what his feelings for Jack are.  He is, as yet, unconscious that he is in love with Jack.  He thinks that what he feels when they get back to Signal, WY from herding on Brokeback Mt. is just a hangover from drinking - a very bad hangover that gives him the "dry heaves" and makes him feel as if his intestines are being "pulled out yard by yard" - but nothing more than that.  It's only a year later, Ennis later tells Jack in the Siesta Motel four summers afterward in the short story, that he "figured out" what it was.

At that point, by the time Ennis had "figured out" what his feelings for Jack were, Ennis said it was too late.  Both of them were married and had children and wives.  They had to "stay decent."  As Ennis tells Jack, almost as if it was a motto that he condemned himself to live by, "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." 

It was Ennis's father who passed down this philosophy of life to his son: the same father who laughed when he showed his two sons, K.E. at age eleven and Ennis at age nine, the corpse of the old gay rancher Earl in the irrigation ditch, left mutilated, with tire iron welts covering his face.

But I think Ennis had accepted his homosexuality at the point he had "figured out" what happened in the shed (warehouse) in Signal, WY that caused him to have the dry heaves after Jack left in his pickup truck.  He told Jack in the Siesta Motel that he had "wrung it out a hunert times" thinking about Jack since he last saw him.  He was afraid of what antihomosexual vigilantes such as father (whom Ennis said he wouldn't have been surprised if he was the old gay rancher Earl's murderer) might do to him and Jack.  In fact, he expected that if his father had walked into their motel room at the Siesta Motel in 1967, his father would have killed them in their bed.  (Ennis puts himself in the company of the old gay rancher Earl when he thinks of his father doing this to them, too, as well as Earl.)

In a later scene, after Ennis's divorce from Alma, when Ennis & Jack are on one of their "fishing" trips, Ennis asks Jack if he thinks people know who "fellas like us" (homosexual men) are just by the look of them.  Ennis also uses the phrase, "boys like you" to describe other men who go to Mexico for the same reason Jack did (for homosexual sex) at the start of their May 1983 argument.

Of course, for whatever reason, Ennis & Jack still talk about having sex with women over their campfire.  (Annie Proulx describes their lies as the sparks of quickly fading burning embers caught in the updraft of rising smoke.)  Jack says he's cheating on his wife with a Texas ranch neighbor's wife.  (Actually, it's probably his Texas ranch neighbor, Randall, whom Jack is cheating with.)  Ennis says he's "putting the blocks" on a waitress (Cassie, in the movie).

Ennis's desire to live up to the image of being a "settled" married heterosexual family man (wife and children) prevents him from an earlier recognition of his own homosexuality.  The illusions of society's expectations about what is sexually "normal" for everyone destroys Ennis's life.
« Last Edit: Mar 27, 2008, 07:58 PM by jetzenpolis »
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

Offline Matt Nasty

  • formerly zankou1991
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 13666
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • I LOVE JAKE
I think your description aintfoolin of Ennis's anger (disappointment? despair? desperation?) being in a "progression" is very apt.  Something is going on during their wrestling play that turns very serious in Ennis.  He responds playfully at first when Jack lassos him...

I agree with you that Ennis thought Jack was taking things too "nonchalant."  The words, "time to go cowboy" must have come as a shock of cold water to Ennis: Jack didn't mean anything by these words but Ennis "knew" that it was the end of their time on Brokeback Mountain.  The spell was broken.  If Ennis was going to abide by his words to Jack that this was a "one shot deal" (that he spoke to Jack the first evening after the night they had sex together for the first time in the cook camp tent), he knew that the time they had spent together on Brokeback Mountain was coming immediately to an end.  Ennis would be going back to marry Alma, start a family, and be who he thought (probably correctly) whom he thought his conservative rural Wyoming society thought he should be: a married heterosexual man holding down a job to support a wife and family.

Then there was Jack.  Despite Ennis's belief that he could be the married heterosexual family man that the Old West culture he saw himself a part of, it would not give him what Jack could give him.  In fact, it could never give him what Jack could give him.

Remember that Ennis, at this point in the story, is unaware of what his feelings for Jack are.  He is, as yet, unconscious that he is in love with Jack.  (He thinks that what he feels when they get back to Signal, WY from herding on Brokeback Mt. is just a hangover from drinking - a very bad hangover that gives him the "dry heaves" and makes him feel as if his intestines are being "pulled out yard by yard" - but nothing more than that.)  It's only a year later, Ennis later tells Jack in the Siesta Motel four summers afterward in the short story, that he "figured out" what it was.

At that point, when Ennis had "figured out" what his feelings for Jack were, Ennis said it was too late.  Both of them were married and had children with their wives.  They has to "stay decent."  As Ennis tells Jack, almost as if it was a motto that he condemned himself to live by, "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." 

It was Ennis's father who passed down this philosophy of life to his son: the same father who laughed when he showed his two sons, K.E. at age eleven and Ennis at age nine, the corpse of the old gay rancher Earl in the irrigation ditch left mutilated and with tire iron welts covering his face.

But I think Ennis had accepted his homosexuality at the point he had "figured out" what happened in the shed (warehouse) in Signal, WY that caused him to have the dry heaves after Jack left in his pickup truck.  He told Jack in the Siesta Motel that he had "wrung it out a hunert times" thinking about Jack since he last saw him.  He was afraid of what antihomosexual vigilantes such as father (whom Ennis said he wouldn't have been surprised if he was the old gay rancher Earl's murderer) might do to him and Jack.  In fact, he expected that if his father had walked into their motel room at the Siesta Motel in 1967, his father would have killed them in their bed.  (Ennis puts himself in the company of the old gay rancher Earl when he thinks this.)

In the later scene, after Ennis's divorce from Alma, when Ennis & Jack are on one of their "fishing" trips, Ennis asks Jack if he thinks people know who "fellas like us" are just by the look of them.  Ennis also uses the phrase, "boys like you" to describe other men who go to Mexico for the same reason Jack did (for homosexual sex) at the start of their May 1983 argument.

Of course, for whatever reason, Ennis & Jack still talk about having sex with women over their campfire which Annie Proulx describes their lies as the sparks of quickly fading burning embers caught in the updraft of rising smoke.  Jack says he's cheating on his wife with a Texas ranch neighbor's wife.  (Actually, it's probably his Texas ranch neighbor, Randall, that Jack is cheating with.)  Ennis says he's "putting the blocks" on a waitress (Cassie, in the movie).

Ennis's desire to live up to the image of being a "settled" married heterosexual family man (wife and children) prevents him from an earlier recognition of his own homosexuality.  The illusions of society's expectations about what is sexually "normal" for everyone destroys Ennis's life.

well said  :clap: i nearly cried at some parts of your post especially the bits about ennis feelings on the last day on brokeback i often wonder imagine if it had been just a 'on shot deal' imagine if jack never sent ennis that post card if ennis and jack never met up again if ennis and jack had just kept going living their lives never seeing each other again, what would be different how would they live, i suppose it doesnt matter because the fact of the matter was they did meet again.
sorry for being  *o)

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
I stgill have a bit of a problem thinking of Ennis as proud.  To me, the explanation of so much in his character relies on the poor self-image Ennis has.  I just feel his stoic actions are more out of fear than pride.  If he admits he has sexual feelings for another man, he is admitting he is gay and that is dangerous in his eyes, so, the safe thing to do is keep it all inside.  He dissembles in order to keep himself safe from pulic criticism and danger, and also from self-knowledge.  If you don't admit to yourself what you are, you cannot hate yourself for it.

I do see your point, lamusica.  I think there is a lot of truth to what you say.  However, I feel that insecurity breeds a kind of hauteur or even flamboyance that only seeke to hide one's weakness.  We do see this a lot with very insecure people, no?

 

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
I think your description aintfoolin of Ennis's anger (disappointment? despair? desperation?) being in a "progression" is very apt.  Something is going on during their wrestling play that turns very serious in Ennis.  He responds playfully at first when Jack lassos him but...

I agree with you that Ennis thought Jack was taking things too "nonchalant."  The words, "time to go cowboy" must have come as a shock of cold water to Ennis: Jack didn't mean anything by these words but Ennis "knew" that it was the end of their time on Brokeback Mountain.  The spell was broken. 

If Ennis was going to abide by his earlier words to Jack that this was a "one shot deal" (that he spoke to Jack the first evening after the night they had sex together for the first time in the cook camp tent), he knew that the time they had spent together on Brokeback Mountain was coming immediately to an end.  Ennis would be going back to marry Alma, start a family, and be who he thought (probably correctly) his conservative rural Wyoming society thought he should be: a married heterosexual man holding down a job to support a wife and family.

Then there was Jack.  Despite Ennis's belief that he could be the married heterosexual family man living the sort of life the Old West culture he saw himself a part of demanding of him, it would not give him what Jack could give him.  In fact, it could never give him what Jack could give him.

Remember that Ennis, at this point in the story, is unaware of what his feelings for Jack are.  He is, as yet, unconscious that he is in love with Jack.  He thinks that what he feels when they get back to Signal, WY from herding on Brokeback Mt. is just a hangover from drinking - a very bad hangover that gives him the "dry heaves" and makes him feel as if his intestines are being "pulled out yard by yard" - but nothing more than that.  It's only a year later, Ennis later tells Jack in the Siesta Motel four summers afterward in the short story, that he "figured out" what it was.

At that point, by the time Ennis had "figured out" what his feelings for Jack were, Ennis said it was too late.  Both of them were married and had children and wives.  They had to "stay decent."  As Ennis tells Jack, almost as if it was a motto that he condemned himself to live by, "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." 

It was Ennis's father who passed down this philosophy of life to his son: the same father who laughed when he showed his two sons, K.E. at age eleven and Ennis at age nine, the corpse of the old gay rancher Earl in the irrigation ditch, left mutilated, with tire iron welts covering his face.

But I think Ennis had accepted his homosexuality at the point he had "figured out" what happened in the shed (warehouse) in Signal, WY that caused him to have the dry heaves after Jack left in his pickup truck.  He told Jack in the Siesta Motel that he had "wrung it out a hunert times" thinking about Jack since he last saw him.  He was afraid of what antihomosexual vigilantes such as father (whom Ennis said he wouldn't have been surprised if he was the old gay rancher Earl's murderer) might do to him and Jack.  In fact, he expected that if his father had walked into their motel room at the Siesta Motel in 1967, his father would have killed them in their bed.  (Ennis puts himself in the company of the old gay rancher Earl when he thinks of his father doing this to them, too, as well as Earl.)

In a later scene, after Ennis's divorce from Alma, when Ennis & Jack are on one of their "fishing" trips, Ennis asks Jack if he thinks people know who "fellas like us" (homosexual men) are just by the look of them.  Ennis also uses the phrase, "boys like you" to describe other men who go to Mexico for the same reason Jack did (for homosexual sex) at the start of their May 1983 argument.

Of course, for whatever reason, Ennis & Jack still talk about having sex with women over their campfire.  (Annie Proulx describes their lies as the sparks of quickly fading burning embers caught in the updraft of rising smoke.)  Jack says he's cheating on his wife with a Texas ranch neighbor's wife.  (Actually, it's probably his Texas ranch neighbor, Randall, whom Jack is cheating with.)  Ennis says he's "putting the blocks" on a waitress (Cassie, in the movie).

Ennis's desire to live up to the image of being a "settled" married heterosexual family man (wife and children) prevents him from an earlier recognition of his own homosexuality.  The illusions of society's expectations about what is sexually "normal" for everyone destroys Ennis's life.

What struck me the most about what you say here is the importance of appearances for them both -- as if they wish to fit into the world of illusion, of what was decent and "true".


Offline lamusica

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1874
  • Gender: Female
I do see your point, lamusica.  I think there is a lot of truth to what you say.  However, I feel that insecurity breeds a kind of hauteur or even flamboyance that only seeke to hide one's weakness.  We do see this a lot with very insecure people, no?

 

You're absolutely right, Thomas.  Often what we interpret as extreme pride is nothing more than a shield.  It sets up a barrier between the person and all other people. In this case, Ennis set the barrier between himself and Alma, his daughters, Cassie, and maybe other potential friends we didn't know about.
"Let's put a SSSSMILE on your faceeee!"

Offline myprivatejack

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 15750
  • Gender: Female
  • It could be like this,just like this...always
You're absolutely right, Thomas.  Often what we interpret as extreme pride is nothing more than a shield.  It sets up a barrier between the person and all other people. In this case, Ennis set the barrier between himself and Alma, his daughters, Cassie, and maybe other potential friends we didn't know about.
You're right,the both of you.Ennis knew very well how to build some shields around him to cover and protect himself,one of them this of proud.With it,he also give a not always real image of security,of self trust,that was very necessary to hide better his fears.And,at the same time,proud made him more sure in his possibilities and conditions,because one of his faults was not having a very high degree of self-esteem,IMO.

Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
All this makes Ennis very hard to read.  It takes a while to realize that conflicting tendencies do coexist with him.  Illusion or not, his stoicism hides and hints at an underlying conflict deep within.


Offline jetzenpolis

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Gender: Male
  • jetzenpolis
The 1st Time: Ennis Lets Go of Jack (releasing himself from desire)
« Reply #71 on: Apr 03, 2008, 06:49 PM »
well said  :clap: i nearly cried at some parts of your post especially the bits about ennis feelings on the last day on brokeback i often wonder imagine if it had been just a 'on shot deal' imagine if jack never sent ennis that post card if ennis and jack never met up again if ennis and jack had just kept going living their lives never seeing each other again, what would be different how would they live, i suppose it doesnt matter because the fact of the matter was they did meet again.
sorry for being  *o)

Nothing is "off topic" on this topic zankou1991!  Anything having anything to do with suffering is always of interest to Buddhism (which, of course, is always interested in the elimination of any form of suffering).

In the four years between when Jack left Signal, WY (in August 1963 in his pickup truck after Ennis & Jack came down from Brokeback Mt.) and their reunion (at the bottom of the landing steps leading up to Ennis's & Alma's apartment over the laundromat "four summers later") in 1967 in Riverton, WY, Ennis did continue to live his life without Jack.  Even after he had the dry heaves and felt as if his intestines were being pulled out, yard-by-yard, thinking he was suffering an especially bad hangover after Jack left him in Signal, WY (to go to his parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY), Ennis continued to live his life without Jack.

As Annie Proulx narrates, it took Ennis a long time before he felt better after Jack left.  But Ennis did eventually feel better.

In other words, Ennis had overcome the attachment to Jack that was causing his suffering.  Ennis had released himself, somehow, from the suffering caused by his desire for Jack.

Again, as Ennis later told Jack in the Siesta Motel, the first night after their 1967 reunion in Riverton, WY, it took Ennis about a year to "figure out" what made him feel so sick in Signal, WY, after Jack left.  (Ennis then says that if he knew at the time what he knew now, things could have been different for them.  Of course, as Ennis next says to Jack, it was now "too late."  They both had wives and children.)

But if Ennis had wanted to (despite now being married to Alma), he could have easily found Jack.  He knew where Jack lived (assuming Jack had mentioned his parents's ranch and where it was in all the stories he told Ennis about his life growing up while they were sitting around the campfire on Brokeback Mountain).  Jack told Ennis that he was going to his parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY, too, when he left Signal, WY in his truck.

All Ennis had to do find Jack was write a post card, General Delivery, to Jack's parents in Lightning Flat, WY.  He could have asked them to tell how he could get in contact with Jack.  But Ennis chose not to.  He was satisfied having "wrung it out a hunert times" thinking about Jack (while married to Alma) in the years before Jack re-entered his life, again, in 1967.  Jack said it took him a lot of effort to locate Ennis before he could send him his postcard from Texas.

Ennis, at that point, had been willing to let go of Jack.

He was not willing to do it, again.

But Ennis could have used his first separation from Jack in the years before 1967 to guide him to do it again, at the end of the story when Ennis is left alone in his trailer, without Jack, with only the decaying relics of two bloody scentless shirts from Brokeback Mountain hanging on his closet door and a postcard of Brokeback Mt. attached to them.  The world is waiting outside Ennis's trailer bedroom window for him.     
« Last Edit: Apr 03, 2008, 07:12 PM by jetzenpolis »
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

Offline Matt Nasty

  • formerly zankou1991
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 13666
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • I LOVE JAKE
Nothing is "off topic" on this topic zankou1991!  Anything having anything to do with suffering is always an interest to Buddhism (which, of course, is always interested in the elimination of suffering).

In the four years between Jack left Signal, WY in August 1963 in his pickup truck after Ennis & Jack came down from Brokeback Mt. and their reunion at the bottom of the landing steps leading up to Ennis's & Alma's apartment over the laundromat "four summers later" in 1967 in Riverton, WY, Ennis did continue to live his life without Jack.  Even after he had the dry heaves and felt as if his intestines were being pulled out, thinking he was suffering an especially bad hangover after Jack left him in Signal, WY (to go to his parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY) that Annie Proulx narrates, took a long time before he felt better, Ennis did eventually feel better.

In other words, Ennis had overcome the attachment to Jack that was causing his suffering.  Ennis had released himself, somehow, from a painful desire for Jack.

Again, as Ennis later told Jack in the Siesta Motel the first night after their 1967 reunion in Riverton, WY, it took Ennis about a year to "figure out" what made him feel so sick in Signal, WY after Jack left.  (Ennis then says that if he knew at the time what he knew now, things could have been different for them.  Of course, as Ennis next says to Jack, it was now "too late."  They both had wives and children.)

But if  Ennis had wanted to (despite now being married to Alma), he could have easily found Jack.  He knew where Jack lived (if Jack had mentioned where his parents's ranch was in all the stories he must have told Ennis about them while they were sitting around the campfire on Brokeback Mountain).  Jack told Ennis that he was going to his parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY, too, when he left Signal, WY in his truck.

All Ennis had to do find Jack was write a post card, General Delivery, to Jack's parents in Lightning Flat, WY, asking them to tell how he could get in contact with Jack.  But Ennis chose not to.  He was satisfied having "wrung it out a hunert times" thinking about Jack while married to Alma in the years before Jack re-entered his life, again, in 1967.  (Jack said it took him a lot of effort to locate Ennis before he could send him his postcard from Texas.)

Ennis, at that point, had been willing to let go of Jack.

He has that example to use as a model, perhaps, to do it again, at the end of the story.     
hmmm true...

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Nothing is "off topic" on this topic zankou1991!  Anything having anything to do with suffering is always of interest to Buddhism (which, of course, is always interested in the elimination of any form of suffering).

In the four years between when Jack left Signal, WY (in August 1963 in his pickup truck after Ennis & Jack came down from Brokeback Mt.) and their reunion (at the bottom of the landing steps leading up to Ennis's & Alma's apartment over the laundromat "four summers later") in 1967 in Riverton, WY, Ennis did continue to live his life without Jack.  Even after he had the dry heaves and felt as if his intestines were being pulled out, yard-by-yard, thinking he was suffering an especially bad hangover after Jack left him in Signal, WY (to go to his parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY), Ennis continued to live his life without Jack.

As Annie Proulx narrates, it took Ennis a long time before he felt better after Jack left.  But Ennis did eventually feel better.

In other words, Ennis had overcome the attachment to Jack that was causing his suffering.  Ennis had released himself, somehow, from the suffering caused by his desire for Jack.

Again, as Ennis later told Jack in the Siesta Motel, the first night after their 1967 reunion in Riverton, WY, it took Ennis about a year to "figure out" what made him feel so sick in Signal, WY, after Jack left.  (Ennis then says that if he knew at the time what he knew now, things could have been different for them.  Of course, as Ennis next says to Jack, it was now "too late."  They both had wives and children.)

But if Ennis had wanted to (despite now being married to Alma), he could have easily found Jack.  He knew where Jack lived (assuming Jack had mentioned his parents's ranch and where it was in all the stories he told Ennis about his life growing up while they were sitting around the campfire on Brokeback Mountain).  Jack told Ennis that he was going to his parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY, too, when he left Signal, WY in his truck.

All Ennis had to do find Jack was write a post card, General Delivery, to Jack's parents in Lightning Flat, WY.  He could have asked them to tell how he could get in contact with Jack.  But Ennis chose not to.  He was satisfied having "wrung it out a hunert times" thinking about Jack (while married to Alma) in the years before Jack re-entered his life, again, in 1967.  Jack said it took him a lot of effort to locate Ennis before he could send him his postcard from Texas.

Ennis, at that point, had been willing to let go of Jack.

He was not willing to do it, again.

But Ennis could have used his first separation from Jack in the years before 1967 to guide him to do it again, at the end of the story when Ennis is left alone in his trailer, without Jack, with only the decaying relics of two bloody scentless shirts from Brokeback Mountain hanging on his closet door and a postcard of Brokeback Mt. attached to them.  The world is waiting outside Ennis's trailer bedroom window for him.     

Interesting thoughts, jetzenpolis, especially the part of Ennis freeing himself from attachment in the end. 

In some ways, I can see this, and in other ways, I hesitate.  The tears in the end seem to still suggest some form of attachment, no?  Or perhaps it was a moment of weakness, even though he was indeed on the journey of releasing himself from the bonds of passion.

It is a very Buddhist thing: to purge oneself of passion and desire by suffering through it.




Offline jetzenpolis

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Gender: Male
  • jetzenpolis
Interesting thoughts, jetzenpolis, especially the part of Ennis freeing himself from attachment in the end. 

In some ways, I can see this, and in other ways, I hesitate.  The tears in the end seem to still suggest some form of attachment, no?  Or perhaps it was a moment of weakness, even though he was indeed on the journey of releasing himself from the bonds of passion.

It is a very Buddhist thing: to purge oneself of passion and desire by suffering through it.







I'm not claiming that Ennis is a Buddhist in any way, tpe.  I don't think Ennis consciously perceives desire, in general, as the source of suffering in his life, as Buddhism does. 

However, Ennis is certainly aware of there is a price he must pay for having a desire for Jack, especially a desire with any sort of sexual component included in it.  He fears he & Jack might be murdered for their homosexuality by homophobic vigilantes.  He's certainly aware of his rural American Old West's society's repugnance toward his homosexuality. 

In the beginning, when they were on Brokeback Mt., he refuses to believe he is homosexual even after having sex the first time with Jack in the cook camp tent after he gets drunk.  "I ain't no queer," he tells Jack. 

But Ennis also overcomes his ignorance about himself and his sexual nature.  Again, he tells Jack - in the Siesta Motel, the first night they are together again in 1967 after they last saw each other after coming down from Brokeback Mt. to Signal, WY, four years ago in 1963 - he thought he had a hangover (with dry heaves) from drinking too much alcohol when Jack left to go to his parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY, in the northeast corner of the state.  But, a year later, he realized what it was.  (He was in love with Jack.) 

Ennis seems to accept his own homosexuality in a very matter of fact way, once he realizes he is homosexual.  He doesn't seem to fight against this knowledge about himself although it takes him awhile to come to it.  ("I wrung it out a hunert times thinking about you...," as he tells Jack at the Siesta Motel in 1967.)  Ennis also readily admits that he is in love with Jack, even though he doesn't tell him so in so many words.  (It took Ennis a year to figure out what the hangover in Signal, WY was.)

In the short story, Annie Proulx, in describing Ennis's willingness to have sex the first time with Jack (when Jack draws Ennis's hand down to Jack's groin in the cook camp tent), says Ennis is somebody who throws himself "whole heartedly" into whatever he does once he decides to do it.   Ennis didn't have a lot of time to make up his mind in that situation, of course. 

Whichever way he decides to go, the consequences are likely irreversible.  If he refuses Jack's offer to have sex, will Jack ever try again? 

Of course, Ennis doesn't have any time either to think any of this through.  He simply knows he'd like to do it. 

(It's only later that Ennis begins to sort out what happens, very slowly.  At first, the evening after he has sex with Jack and comes back from the herd to the cook camp, he tells Jack, "I ain't no queer.")

Ennis's ability to eventually see who and what he is clearly (a homosexual man who is in love with another homosexual man, Jack) is what Zen Buddhism calls "Beginner's Mind."  Zen seeks to clear the mind of its (intellectualized, socially instilled, or personally desired) preconceptions.  A clear mind, emptied of its preconceptions, sees the world fresh.  It starts all over from the beginning, each time, the mind completely open to what lies before it.

Ennis doesn't come to his "Beginner's Mind" right away though.  It takes him a little time.  But when the realization comes, he accepts it.  He doesn't try to fight it off.  (At least he is this way as far as his reflections about himself go.)

However, he still attempts to keep a social facade of heterosexual "normality" as long as he can with Alma, for example, or anyone else.  Perhaps, for whatever reasons both of them have, he also tries to do this with Jack, even years on into their relationship, even after Ennis's divorce from Alma.  Annie Proulx describes Ennis & Jack sitting around the campfire, telling stories to each other.  The lies they tell each other are lit, burning sparks flying up in the "smoke" of the campfire.  Ennis tells Jack he's putting the "blocks" on a waitress (whatever that is) and Jack tells Ennis he's having an extramarital affair with a Texas ranch neighbor's wife. 

In their May 1983 argument, with Jack asking aloud he'd like to know how he can quit Ennis, Annie Proulx describes it as being as if the ground they were standing on was splitting open with vents of steam releasing all the pent-up anxieties, fears, anger, doubts between themselves that they had set aside and pushed out of sight.  What they put off into a neglected corner for all these years finally begins to rise besides them.  What they had kept hidden from each other was coming into conscious view for them.

But as Annie Proulx adds, it was too late for them (to discuss their differences).  Ennis & Jack would simply set aside all their differences to patch things up "almost to the way they were before" (previous to their argument).  Perhaps their last chance to talk openly with each other, from the heart, was thrown away.  After he leaves, Jack tells his parents in Lightning Flat, WY that he is going to bring in a Texas ranch neighbor to be his ranch partner (no longer talking about Ennis del Mar as his ranch partner on the Twist family ranch).

Jack always had a "Beginner's Mind" when it came to his own homosexuality, I think.  Even when he appeared to agree with Ennis on Brokeback Mt., telling Ennis, "Me, too..." when Ennis declared to Jack, the world, and perhaps himself, "I ain't no queer!," there is a reluctance in Jack's voice that says otherwise (the evening after they first had sex in the cook camp tent when Ennis came up silently, grimly to where Jack was lying on his side on the ground anxiously beneath the sunset).

Jack knew at that time that he was, in fact, queer.  (He was probably agreeing with Ennis in order to keep Ennis from running away from him.)

Perhaps this is what Ennis loved Jack for (Jack's ability to be honest with himself, right away, in the present moment, without having to think it through, without having to wait).  At least, it's a part of what Ennis may have loved Jack for. 

It's the young Jack, as he was at 19 years of age on Brokeback Mt. with wavy hair and buck teeth, who makes Ennis happy the day after when he dreams of him at night in his trailer.  The young Jack's face is as fresh and clear as mountain snow, his cheeks as red rouge as a rose's fragile, tender, richly colored petals.

But Jack was not even conscious - and, at best, not "fully" conscious - of what his sexless hunger for Ennis was in his favorite memory of him was (with Ennis holding him from behind, rocking him into a trance, humming a song to him).  Jack is troubled by the thought (even in his favorite memory of Ennis) that Ennis may be holding him from behind because Ennis does not wish to see that it is Jack he is holding in his arms).

Jack did not have a "Beginner's Mind" about his favorite memory of Ennis.  Jack was not willing to examine the doubts that troubled this favorite memory.

The "garish" can of beans with the dirty spoon sticking out of it sitting on the log ruins Ennis's dreams of Jack at night.  The pillows are wet on those nights rather than the sheets.  (The mature Jack is "garish," perhaps, in comparison to the young Jack.  But it is the mature Jack that Ennis perhaps misses most.)

« Last Edit: Apr 15, 2008, 07:38 PM by jetzenpolis »
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691


Thanks jetzenpolis.  I do agree with you that the Buddhist sentiment is not especially manifest in the character of Ennis.  But I will say that I have tried to elucidate that thr story itself has a very Buddhist point of view.  It is the same with how some scholars have claimed an underlying Buddhist subtext to love stories like Genji Monogatari or the Story of the Stone, for instance.  The characters are so immersed in the world of the senses, but the story uses this to illustrate a very Buddhist perspective in life, through the exposure of the sense and the underlying passions.

I do like your views on the Beginner's Mind, although I am not sure about how far or (at the very least) at what point Ennis accepted his homosexuality -- and I am aware that even the subject of Ennis's homosexuality is not universally accepted here.    Nonetheless, I agree that for Ennis, it was a gradual progression into awareness and acceptance.  I do think that Jack's death is pivotal to the realization, and this I think is in keeping with how Buddhist commentators view the story.


Offline jetzenpolis

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Gender: Male
  • jetzenpolis
Ennis: Old West cowboy proud or Old West settler humble?
« Reply #76 on: Jun 19, 2008, 07:49 PM »
I still have a bit of a problem thinking of Ennis as proud.  To me, the explanation of so much in his character relies on the poor self-image Ennis has.  I just feel his stoic actions are more out of fear than pride.  If he admits he has sexual feelings for another man, he is admitting he is gay and that is dangerous in his eyes, so, the safe thing to do is keep it all inside.  He dissembles in order to keep himself safe from public criticism and danger, and also from self-knowledge.  If you don't admit to yourself what you are, you cannot hate yourself for it.

...Ennis knew very well how to build some shields around him to cover and protect himself, one of them [built] of pride. With it, he also gives an image [that is not always real] of security, of self trust, that was very necessary to hide his fears [better].  And,at the same time, pride made him more sure in his possibilities and conditions, because one of his faults was not having a very high degree of self-esteem, IMO.

One way of answering the question of whether Ennis sought pride or humility is to look at how the self-images [real or imaginary] he sought for in his culture: rural Wyoming in the Mountain West of the United States.  (Brokeback Mountain director Ang Lee associates Ennis's character with the "Old West" and Jack's character with the "New West.")
 
But the Old West of rural Wyoming is not a single world view without internal conflicts of its own.  In other words, the "Old West" culture is not an undivided structural "totality" of consistent ideas (in the terms used by Claude Levi-Strauss, a 20th century French "structural" anthropologist).
 
"Old West" culture, as an ideological "structure," is splintered by many divisions within itself.  As a cultural "structure," the logical consistency of Old West culture can't stand up under its own weight. 
 
Old West culture is not a single unitary mass of cultural ideas, assumptions, habits, traditions, attitudes, etc. that are wholly consistent with each other.  Rather, the various cultural ideas within Old West culture are often in conflict with each other.  Old West culture, thus, is a house is divided against itself. 

(In contrast, the rigorous logic used in mathematics puts together various mathematical formulas in a very formal, logically consistent way.  The logical consistency of an assembly of a selection of mathematical formulas provides the "proof" of a new mathematical theorems, such as Einstein's famous equation: energy= the speed of light squared.)
 
Perhaps the greatest cultural division within Old West culture is the difference (contradiction) between "outlaw" and "settler."  In the cultural mythology of the American West, the "outlaw" includes train robbers, stagecoach robbers, banks robbers, etc.; saloon keepers; gamblers; dance hall girls (prostitutes); drunken brawlers; "shoot out" duels (to see who is the "fastest gun in the West," etc.); cattle rustlers; claim jumpers (of  prospecters' mine claims); etc.  On the opposing side of the cultural divide within Old West culture is the "settler."  The settler culture includes all the stable "law-abiding" members of an Old West society that view themselves, collectively, as part of a community.  The "settler" includes: town bankers; sheriff; storekeepers; local church congregations; school teachers; ranch owners; husbands; wives; children; families; etc.
 
As a cultural figure in Old West society, the "cowboy" seems to fall somewhere in-between the "outlaw" and the "settler."  As are most outlaws (as perceived in the broader American perspective from which I, too, am viewing the Old West), the "cowboy" is: young, male, single, reckless, wild, adventurous, etc.  But the "cowboy" is also seen as vital to the economic health of the settler "community": herding livestock.
 
Livestock ranching, together with mining and logging, is the traditional foundation of the economic "viability" of the American West.  Livestock, timber, and minerals are what the American West "exports" (as "raw," "unfinished" resources) to the rest of the nation and the world.  In return for what the "natural resource extraction" economy of the American Mountain West exports, the rest of the world provides it with what are considered in industrialized Western civilization to be the necessities and luxuries of life: manufactured goods (including textiles, etc.).  The expansion of railroad tracks into the American West allowed its resource extraction economy to grow to a much larger scale than was possible in previous economic eras.
 
The "cowboy" in the cultural perception of the American West is often seen as a "proud" figure.  By contrast, the "settler" is "humble" (unless the settler is a banker or large cattle rancher or some other "important" figure in the community of great economic means).
 
Ennis, although a ranch hand, seems to aspire more to the "settler" side of Old West culture than to either the "cowboy" or "outlaw" ideal (in contrast to Jack).  For example, Ennis offers an explanation to Alma why she should stay home when Jack first comes to Riverton, WY in 1967 (to Ennis's & Alma's apartment over the laundromat at the top of the landing steps where the "thing" causes Ennis to initiate his kiss with Jack).  Ennis tells her that Jack is not a "restaurant type" of guy. 
 
In other words, Ennis views Jack as lacking the proper social manners to be taken out to a restaurant.  This might be more than just an excuse to convince Alma that she'd have a better time staying at home.  Annie Proulx adds that Ennis thinks of all the dirty spoons sticking out of the open cans of beans sitting around the cook camp tent on Brokeback Mt. when he thinks of Jack.
 
This is very much a "settler's" perspective that Ennis takes (upon Jack).  The settler wishes to be a part of the wider civilized world.  The "cowboy" (just as the "outlaw") would, rather than remain outside of it, left alone, on a permanent frontier, away from other people.
 
Ennis seeks to project a self-image of himself as a "settler" rather than as a "cowboy."  He values his humility.
 
Alma shares this perspective.  She, too, favors the "settler" side of Old West culture.  She prefers to be in town where there are people.  In town, there are playmates for the girls, their daughters, Alma, Jr. and Jenny.  She doesn't want to remain isolated on a "lonely" ranch.  She convinces Ennis to move to town by reminding him of his own unhappy "lonely" childhood.
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2008, 07:59 PM by jetzenpolis »
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: Ennis: Old West cowboy proud or Old West settler humble?
« Reply #77 on: Jun 20, 2008, 07:28 AM »

***

Perhaps the greatest cultural division within Old West culture is the difference (contradiction) between "outlaw" and "settler."  In the cultural mythology of the American West, the "outlaw" includes train robbers, stagecoach robbers, banks robbers, etc.; saloon keepers; gamblers; dance hall girls (prostitutes); drunken brawlers; "shoot out" duels (to see who is the "fastest gun in the West," etc.); cattle rustlers; claim jumpers (of  prospecters' mine claims); etc.  On the opposing side of the cultural divide within Old West culture is the "settler."  The settler culture includes all the stable "law-abiding" members of an Old West society that view themselves, collectively, as part of a community.  The "settler" includes: town bankers; sheriff; storekeepers; local church congregations; school teachers; ranch owners; husbands; wives; children; families; etc.
 
As a cultural figure in Old West society, the "cowboy" seems to fall somewhere in-between the "outlaw" and the "settler."  As are most outlaws (as perceived in the broader American perspective from which I, too, am viewing the Old West), the "cowboy" is: young, male, single, reckless, wild, adventurous, etc.  But the "cowboy" is also seen as vital to the economic health of the settler "community": herding livestock.
 
Livestock ranching, together with mining and logging, is the traditional foundation of the economic "viability" of the American West.  Livestock, timber, and minerals are what the American West "exports" (as "raw," "unfinished" resources) to the rest of the nation and the world.  In return for what the "natural resource extraction" economy of the American Mountain West exports, the rest of the world provides it with what are considered in industrialized Western civilization to be the necessities and luxuries of life: manufactured goods (including textiles, etc.).  The expansion of railroad tracks into the American West allowed its resource extraction economy to grow to a much larger scale than was possible in previous economic eras.
 
The "cowboy" in the cultural perception of the American West is often seen as a "proud" figure.  By contrast, the "settler" is "humble" (unless the settler is a banker or large cattle rancher or some other "important" figure in the community of great economic means).
 
Ennis, although a ranch hand, seems to aspire more to the "settler" side of Old West culture than to either the "cowboy" or "outlaw" ideal (in contrast to Jack).  For example, Ennis offers an explanation to Alma why she should stay home when Jack first comes to Riverton, WY in 1967 (to Ennis's & Alma's apartment over the laundromat at the top of the landing steps where the "thing" causes Ennis to initiate his kiss with Jack).  Ennis tells her that Jack is not a "restaurant type" of guy. 
 
In other words, Ennis views Jack as lacking the proper social manners to be taken out to a restaurant.  This might be more than just an excuse to convince Alma that she'd have a better time staying at home.  Annie Proulx adds that Ennis thinks of all the dirty spoons sticking out of the open cans of beans sitting around the cook camp tent on Brokeback Mt. when he thinks of Jack.
 
This is very much a "settler's" perspective that Ennis takes (upon Jack).  The settler wishes to be a part of the wider civilized world.  The "cowboy" (just as the "outlaw") would, rather than remain outside of it, left alone, on a permanent frontier, away from other people.
 
Ennis seeks to project a self-image of himself as a "settler" rather than as a "cowboy."  He values his humility.
 
Alma shares this perspective.  She, too, favors the "settler" side of Old West culture.  She prefers to be in town where there are people.  In town, there are playmates for the girls, their daughters, Alma, Jr. and Jenny.  She doesn't want to remain isolated on a "lonely" ranch.  She convinces Ennis to move to town by reminding him of his own unhappy "lonely" childhood.


I find this very interesting, especially the part about your interpretation of Ennis saying that Jack was not a "restaurant type". 

I wonder if we should split this from the current topic and make it into a separate thread.

Offline Matt Nasty

  • formerly zankou1991
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 13666
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • I LOVE JAKE
Re: Ennis: Old West cowboy proud or Old West settler humble?
« Reply #78 on: Jun 20, 2008, 09:51 AM »
 
One way of answering the question of whether Ennis sought pride or humility is to look at how the self-images [real or imaginary] he sought for in his culture: rural Wyoming in the Mountain West of the United States.  (Brokeback Mountain director Ang Lee associates Ennis's character with the "Old West" and Jack's character with the "New West.")
 
But the Old West of rural Wyoming is not a single world view without internal conflicts of its own.  In other words, the "Old West" culture is not an undivided structural "totality" of consistent ideas (in the terms used by Claude Levi-Strauss, a 20th century French "structural" anthropologist).
 
"Old West" culture, as an ideological "structure," is splintered by many divisions within itself.  As a cultural "structure," the logical consistency of Old West culture can't stand up under its own weight. 
 
Old West culture is not a single unitary mass of cultural ideas, assumptions, habits, traditions, attitudes, etc. that are wholly consistent with each other.  Rather, the various cultural ideas within Old West culture are often in conflict with each other.  Old West culture, thus, is a house is divided against itself. 

(In contrast, the rigorous logic used in mathematics puts together various mathematical formulas in a very formal, logically consistent way.  The logical consistency of an assembly of a selection of mathematical formulas provides the "proof" of a new mathematical theorems, such as Einstein's famous equation: energy= the speed of light squared.)
 
Perhaps the greatest cultural division within Old West culture is the difference (contradiction) between "outlaw" and "settler."  In the cultural mythology of the American West, the "outlaw" includes train robbers, stagecoach robbers, banks robbers, etc.; saloon keepers; gamblers; dance hall girls (prostitutes); drunken brawlers; "shoot out" duels (to see who is the "fastest gun in the West," etc.); cattle rustlers; claim jumpers (of  prospecters' mine claims); etc.  On the opposing side of the cultural divide within Old West culture is the "settler."  The settler culture includes all the stable "law-abiding" members of an Old West society that view themselves, collectively, as part of a community.  The "settler" includes: town bankers; sheriff; storekeepers; local church congregations; school teachers; ranch owners; husbands; wives; children; families; etc.
 
As a cultural figure in Old West society, the "cowboy" seems to fall somewhere in-between the "outlaw" and the "settler."  As are most outlaws (as perceived in the broader American perspective from which I, too, am viewing the Old West), the "cowboy" is: young, male, single, reckless, wild, adventurous, etc.  But the "cowboy" is also seen as vital to the economic health of the settler "community": herding livestock.
 
Livestock ranching, together with mining and logging, is the traditional foundation of the economic "viability" of the American West.  Livestock, timber, and minerals are what the American West "exports" (as "raw," "unfinished" resources) to the rest of the nation and the world.  In return for what the "natural resource extraction" economy of the American Mountain West exports, the rest of the world provides it with what are considered in industrialized Western civilization to be the necessities and luxuries of life: manufactured goods (including textiles, etc.).  The expansion of railroad tracks into the American West allowed its resource extraction economy to grow to a much larger scale than was possible in previous economic eras.
 
The "cowboy" in the cultural perception of the American West is often seen as a "proud" figure.  By contrast, the "settler" is "humble" (unless the settler is a banker or large cattle rancher or some other "important" figure in the community of great economic means).
 
Ennis, although a ranch hand, seems to aspire more to the "settler" side of Old West culture than to either the "cowboy" or "outlaw" ideal (in contrast to Jack).  For example, Ennis offers an explanation to Alma why she should stay home when Jack first comes to Riverton, WY in 1967 (to Ennis's & Alma's apartment over the laundromat at the top of the landing steps where the "thing" causes Ennis to initiate his kiss with Jack).  Ennis tells her that Jack is not a "restaurant type" of guy. 
 
In other words, Ennis views Jack as lacking the proper social manners to be taken out to a restaurant.  This might be more than just an excuse to convince Alma that she'd have a better time staying at home.  Annie Proulx adds that Ennis thinks of all the dirty spoons sticking out of the open cans of beans sitting around the cook camp tent on Brokeback Mt. when he thinks of Jack.
 
This is very much a "settler's" perspective that Ennis takes (upon Jack).  The settler wishes to be a part of the wider civilized world.  The "cowboy" (just as the "outlaw") would, rather than remain outside of it, left alone, on a permanent frontier, away from other people.
 
Ennis seeks to project a self-image of himself as a "settler" rather than as a "cowboy."  He values his humility.
 
Alma shares this perspective.  She, too, favors the "settler" side of Old West culture.  She prefers to be in town where there are people.  In town, there are playmates for the girls, their daughters, Alma, Jr. and Jenny.  She doesn't want to remain isolated on a "lonely" ranch.  She convinces Ennis to move to town by reminding him of his own unhappy "lonely" childhood.

this is really intresting, thanks for sharing with us :)

babytammy7

  • Guest
Amazing post Jetz, and I agree with everything except the part about Jack and the restaurant.

I think that Jack has the proper social manners to be taken out to a restaurant!! Jack liked people and he was used to deal with them. He was the one who wanted to live his love for Ennis in a more open way, he wanted to live with Ennis and not only hidden in the middle of nowhere.
Jack liked travelling too, and he used to take drinks in bars, do rodeos, and meet new people. Jack, was a free spirit, yeah, but we saw him having dinner with Randall, Lureen and Lashauwn, and he was talking and dancing. Jack was for sure the restaurant type, and even more town boy than Ennis. Jack could be the shelter type because he wanted to leave those times with Ennis in the mountain and he wanted to do a normal life living with him in a house of their own, and he was living with Lureen in a town bigger than Riverton, and he was in more contact with people than Ennis. He talked a lot and he could make friends if he wanted. Ennis was the solitary cowboy type, not Jack.

Ennis thinks of all the dirty spoons sticking out of the open cans of beans sitting around the cook camp tent on Brokeback Mt. when he was dreaming about Jack, not thinking about him as you said. He always dreamt about Brokeback Mountain, and I think he did it not because he didn't see Jack in a certain way (restaurant type) but because he was dreaming about the time he was the happiest in his life, the time he met Jack Twist, the time that branded him for the rest of his life.

Ennis said: "You know me, Jack, the only travelling I've done is going around a teapot looking for the handle...", or something like that.  And that was true.  Ennis wouldn't go anywhere outside of a small frame of reference he could hold on to.  It was a great leap for him to move to the apartment over the laundromat- he didn't want to do that.  It was Alma who wanted that. Ennis was happy living somewhere out of the town and he said to Jack up in BBM that he was saving to get his own ranch. Ennis didn't feel confortable with people around him, he was alone in the bars and diners (we see that at least twice in the film) and he didn't speak much. Ennis wouldn't get a job at the power company, making more money. Jack did, he worked as a salesman making good money, dealing with people. That's why I don't think that Ennis wished to be a part of the wider civilized world, as you said. He wanted to have a "normal" life with a wife and kinds, that's true, but he didn't want to make social life, and you see that he didn't want to move to the town and later he didn't want to go with Alma to the church social events. You said that the "cowboy", just like the "outlaw", would left alone, on a permanent frontier, away from other people. And that's the exactly picture of Ennis we got from the film. Ennis wanted to met Jack in the middle of nowhere and then when he divorced Alma, he lived in a cabin far from town, alone, with no people near, and then, at the end, in a trailer, not in a house in town.

I think that Jack was the restaurant type and Ennis not. Maybe Jack was not exactly the Shelter type because he was a dreamer, but Ennis, for me, wasn't that type neither. He was the cowboy type. Jack in his beliefs and way of living became almost a city boy, while Ennis was always a cowboy, the perfect picture of that.

Just my humble opinion. Thank you.  ^f^

Offline Matt Nasty

  • formerly zankou1991
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 13666
  • Country: 00
  • Gender: Male
  • I LOVE JAKE
god thats such a beautiful post tammy  ^f^

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Amazing post Jetz, and I agree with everything except the part about Jack and the restaurant.

I think that Jack has the proper social manners to be taken out to a restaurant!! Jack liked people and he was used to deal with them. He was the one who wanted to live his love for Ennis in a more open way, he wanted to live with Ennis and not only hidden in the middle of nowhere.
Jack liked travelling too, and he used to take drinks in bars, do rodeos, and meet new people. Jack, was a free spirit, yeah, but we saw him having dinner with Randall, Lureen and Lashauwn, and he was talking and dancing. Jack was for sure the restaurant type, and even more town boy than Ennis. Jack could be the shelter type because he wanted to leave those times with Ennis in the mountain and he wanted to do a normal life living with him in a house of their own, and he was living with Lureen in a town bigger than Riverton, and he was in more contact with people than Ennis. He talked a lot and he could make friends if he wanted. Ennis was the solitary cowboy type, not Jack.

***

Very good points, Tammy.

I do think that Ennis openly acknowledged Jack's greater social mobility as well as his greater finesse as far as other people are concerned.  "Some high class entertainment" is one example where we see Ennis poking fun at Jack's world -- a world that Ennis felt he didn't belong. 

Lureen definietly felt that Jack was someone she could be seen with in public occasions, such as the one when Jack met Randall. 

I do think that Ennmis's excuse to Alma was purely a spur of the moment response, in the same way as "He's from Texas" was.  To bring back the Buddhist vein into this, I must say that Ennis being oblivious to Alma while he was packing for the fishing trip is one of those "Zen" moments in the film, where we see Ennis in a totally different plane of consicousness.  It is telling that such as state is rooted on the element of desire.


Offline jetzenpolis

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Gender: Male
  • jetzenpolis
Amazing post Jetz, and I agree with everything except the part about Jack and the restaurant.I think that Jack has the proper social manners to be taken out to a restaurant!! Jack liked people and he was used to deal with them. He was the one who wanted to live his love for Ennis in a more open way, he wanted to live with Ennis and not only hidden in the middle of nowhere. Jack liked travelling too, and he used to take drinks in bars, do rodeos, and meet new people. Jack, was a free spirit, yeah, but we saw him having dinner with Randall, Lureen and Lashauwn, and he was talking and dancing. Jack was for sure the restaurant type, and even more town boy than Ennis. Jack could be the shelter type because he wanted to leave those times with Ennis in the mountain and he wanted to do a normal life living with him in a house of their own, and he was living with Lureen in a town bigger than Riverton, and he was in more contact with people than Ennis. He talked a lot and he could make friends if he wanted. Ennis was the solitary cowboy type, not Jack.Ennis thinks of all the dirty spoons sticking out of the open cans of beans sitting around the cook camp tent on Brokeback Mt. when he was dreaming about Jack, not thinking about him as you said. He always dreamt about Brokeback Mountain, and I think he did it not because he didn't see Jack in a certain way (restaurant type) but because he was dreaming about the time he was the happiest in his life, the time he met Jack Twist, the time that branded him for the rest of his life.Ennis said: "You know me, Jack, the only travelling I've done is going around a teapot looking for the handle...", or something like that.  And that was true.  Ennis wouldn't go anywhere outside of a small frame of reference he could hold on to.  It was a great leap for him to move to the apartment over the laundromat- he didn't want to do that.  It was Alma who wanted that. Ennis was happy living somewhere out of the town and he said to Jack up in BBM that he was saving to get his own ranch. Ennis didn't feel confortable with people around him, he was alone in the bars and diners (we see that at least twice in the film) and he didn't speak much. Ennis wouldn't get a job at the power company, making more money. Jack did, he worked as a salesman making good money, dealing with people. That's why I don't think that Ennis wished to be a part of the wider civilized world, as you said. He wanted to have a "normal" life with a wife and kinds, that's true, but he didn't want to make social life, and you see that he didn't want to move to the town and later he didn't want to go with Alma to the church social events. You said that the "cowboy", just like the "outlaw", would left alone, on a permanent frontier, away from other people. And that's the exactly picture of Ennis we got from the film. Ennis wanted to met Jack in the middle of nowhere and then when he divorced Alma, he lived in a cabin far from town, alone, with no people near, and then, at the end, in a trailer, not in a house in town.I think that Jack was the restaurant type and Ennis not. Maybe Jack was not exactly the Shelter type because he was a dreamer, but Ennis, for me, wasn't that type neither. He was the cowboy type. Jack in his beliefs and way of living became almost a city boy, while Ennis was always a cowboy, the perfect picture of that. Just my humble opinion. Thank you.  ^f^
 

Thanks for the compliment on the post Tammy! 

 
Part One: "Settler" vs. "Outlaw" (Wild West Frontier) Culture; "Old" vs. "New" World
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I think the primary difference between Old West "settler" culture and Old West ("wild" frontier) "outlaw" culture is that the settler culture's main value is "permanence."  Stability, continuous growth, multi-generational habitation of the same place are all included in the Old West settler's ideal of geographic "permanence" (staying put in one place, long term).
 
In order to do this, settler culture requires an economy with sustainable "viability" (over the long term).  In other words, it has to be multi-generational.  It's a place where families can be successfully raised, generation after generation.
 
"Settlement" includes both town and country.  It includes both urban and rural residence.  It's the intention of permanently remaining in a place that's most important to Old West "settler" culture, not that it be solely "urban" rather than "rural."
 
The "Wild West" frontier "outlaw" culture is less interested in economic sustainability.  It's often associated with a "gold rush" mentality, for example, and a "boom and bust" economy. 
 
"Wild West" frontier culture is often violent.  Its shoot outs, robberies, duels, brawls, etc. are legendary and even a celebrated as part of America's cultural mythology of the Old West's "wild frontier."  (It's no place to raise a family, in other words.) 
 
Is the contradiction between "settler" and (frontier) "outlaw" the primary contradiction within Old West culture?  In other words, are "settlers" and (frontier) "outlaws" the two most important cultural ideals dividing Old West culture into opposing sides?
 
Such differences between people's thinking (especially within a culture) not only divide them against each other but can also against themselves.  People are torn apart, within themselves, by conflicting attitudes toward politics, religion, sexuality, etc.  In other words, the same person within Old West culture can be part "settler," part "outlaw," all at the same time. 
 
There could be other types of contradictions within Old West culture that might also be important.
 
One avenue of examining what the most important contradictions (differences of opinion) within Old West culture are might start at what is (culturally perceived as) the "opposite" of Old West culture.  This can be a little complicated because the phrase "Old West" contains two terms (of reference): namely, "old" and "west." 
 
First, break down the differences between "West" and "East" in American culture.  The "West," in American geographical terminology, is used to define one of the most important "regional" differences within American culture. 
 
The opposite of the "West," of course, is the "East."   
 
The American "West" - different in its natural environment, geology, culture, history, climate, economy, etc. than the East - encompasses both the "Old West" and the "New West."  In other words, it's an overall category of geographical description that includes both the "Old" and "New" West. 
 
From the Western perspective, the "East" is seen as a "settled" culture. 
 
Interestingly, America, as a whole, looks to Europe (Britain in particular), to find its "old" country of (European ancestral) origin.  For Americans of any ancestry (Europe, Africa, Asia, South America, etc.), Europe is the standard example of a settled "Old World" civilization that America compares itself to (and measures itself by). 
 
Europe is the original source of what is now American culture. 
 
For example, the birth of eighteenth century ideals of American political democracy is closely tied to precedents in seventeenth century English political history.  The English Civil War between King Charles I and Parliament in the 1640s, resulting in the (temporary) overthrow of the monarchy by Oliver Cromwell, parallels the end of monarchy in the independent American republic declared in 1776. The Ascendency of Parliament in 1689, permanently limited the prerogative of English royal power with a Bill of Rights in the "Glorious Revolution" when William of Orange (King William III) became king.  A century later, in 1789, the U.S. Constitution attached a Bill of Rights of its own.
 
Of course, American culture is also influenced by cultural contributions from other continents.  For example, Buddhism (a cultural "derivation" from Asia, if you wish to describe it that way) influenced Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and other members of the Beat Generation in the America of the 1950s.
 
Americans of all ancestry, of course, share a knowledge of American history, politics, customs, habits, etc.  (However, these are also seen from many opposing perspectives, of course.) 
 
All of American culture has a sort of "split personality" in regard to the issue of "settlement" vs. "frontier."  This might go back to the differences in the two original permanent English-language colonial settlements on the North American continent: Jamestown, Virginia (1607) and Plymouth, Massachusetts (1620).
 
A PBS television documentary series, Secrets of the Dead, discusses the differences between the Jamestown colonists and the Pilgrims who landed at Plymouth Rock on the Mayflower (in the case of "Death at Jamestown").  The Jamestown colonists were primarily commercial in their motivations for coming to the New World.  They were looking for gold.  When the search for that precious metal failed, Virginia's earliest colonists turned to tobacco to "get rich quick."  They also begin to import African slaves to work their plantation fields very early in the 1600s.  The Pilgrims were primarily religious in their motivations for colonizing a New World, rather than commercial.
 
However, the Puritans and Pilgrims who inhabited what would become Massachusetts also sought economic prosperity, too.  Settlers in both Virginia and Massachusetts took land away from the original native tribes inhabiting them.
 
Thus, from its very beginning, America has always been split between two purposes: the "sacred" (religious devotion, political idealism, cultural advancement, etc.) vs. the "profane" (money, the market economy, profit motive, power, competition, etc.).
 
Characterized by this division (contradiction) within American culture, the differences between the American East and West are often perhaps not so much a matter of type but rather of degree. 
 
That is, both the American East and West pursue the same dual purposes (the "sacred" and the "profane").  But they each pursue these two different purposes to a different degree. 
 
The American East, within American culture, is regarded as more "settled" because its English language settlement stretches back to the 1600s, far longer than it does in the American West.
 
Nevertheless, both East and West also share a "wild" (frontier, outlaw) side.  In the American East, this wild side is found in its gangsters, teenage gangs, drug addicts, prostitutes, and other "outlaws" and "outcasts" beyond the fringe of a "mainstream" society.
 
But the American West's frontier "wild" side is much more prominent.  It is one one of the West's most cherished cultural values.  The American East may romanticize such historical figures as the gangster Al Capone in Chicago.  But it is much more ambivalent in its attitude toward its "outlaws" than the American West is (even in Chicago).  The East keeps its outlaws at a greater arm's length distance from its everyday life.
 
 
Part Two: "Old" vs. "New" West
------------------------------
 
The Old West embraces both a "settler" and a wild frontier "outlaw" cultural mentality.  What separates the "Old" from the "New" West is not one having only a "wild frontier" culture and the other only a "settler" culture. 
 
Perhaps, instead, the most important difference between the "New" and "Old" West is how the "New" West seeks the preservation of the "wild frontier" as an environmental, scenic, and even cultural characteristic of the American West. 
 
The Old West sees its natural resources (including its scenic beauty) as "limitless."  It allows itself a more romantic capitalist view of the world, in which the market economy can exploit natural resources forever, without limit, without regulation. 
 
In order to save the West, the New West knows it needs to set priorities about what it thinks is "best" about the West (and, thus, worth preserving).  In other words, the New West knows that it has to choose between competing values to "save" the American West.  (The New West knows it is not a "limitless" frontier, in other words.)
 
The New West is "practical" in the measures it's willing to use in order to preserve the "wildness" threatened by overlogging, overgrazing, strip mining, pollution, uncontrolled growth, dams (water reallocation), etc.  (Doesn't that also make the New West more "devout," or "spiritual," with a greater interest in advocating what's "sacred" in American life: protecting scenic beauty, saving the wild natural environment for future generations?)
 
The New West is not willing to hold onto those traditional Old West values that threaten to destroy all that the New West finds best in the West.   The New West does not wish to exploit itself solely for the commercial purposes of business and profit.
 
 
Part Three: Cowboys (Two Versions of an American "Heroic" Masculine Legend)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Ang Lee, the director of Brokeback Mountain regards Ennis as an embodiment of the "Old West," while he finds Jack to be "New West."  The most important contradiction within "Old West" culture is the difference between the "settler and "outlaw" (frontier).  In his pursuit of his ideal of being a "family man," Ennis stands on the side of the "settler" not the "outlaw" (nor the cowboy). 
 
I'm certain that Ennis belongs to the "settler" side of Old West culture.  Annie Proulx describes him as having a "cattleman's" pleasure in the smell of the dirty diapers of his very young daughters.  These remind him of "fertility" and "fecundity" (of a cattle barn, etc.)
 
Ennis enjoys being a father.  He insists upon remaining one - to the best of his ability and to the full extent of his legal rights for custody of his children - after his divorce from Alma.  (However, after the trauma of his Thanksgiving kitchen argument with Alma, where she accuses Ennis of having sex with Jack on "fishing trips," Annie Proulx says Ennis did not see his daughters for a very long time.)
 
There seems to be some cultural confusion about what the American ideal of a "cowboy" is.  In one version, the "ideal" cowboy is a man "strong" enough to stand on his own, a "rugged individualist."  He is somebody who doesn't allow others to persuade him to give up his own opinions (just so that he can be in "agreement" with a group of his peers).
 
Ennis appears alternately fearful and conformist in regard to his own homosexuality.  Thus, Ennis fails to measure up to the first version of the cowboy "ideal" that says he should be a "individualist" willing to go it "alone" (as a "lone" cowboy) in order to do either:
 
1.) what he wants (without regard for other's opinions);
2.) or what he thinks is "right" (without letting others decide this for him.
 
The first legendary version of the cowboy - the "lone cowboy" - is an ambivalent, complex masculine hero of the American West.  As a hero, he remains embittered, cynical, ornery, and proud.  He's not expected to be otherwise.  (Here, as a Marxist might point out, the psychology of the "lone" cowboy often closely resembles the "rugged" competitive individualism of a nineteenth century robber baron big industrial capitalist titan of industry.)
 
A second version of the American ideal of a "cowboy," however, places the cowboy within a group of his cohorts (fellow cowboys).  He is given a social life.  He becomes a member of a group of cowboys who herd together out on the range.  They come into town on Saturday nigh in "high spirits": drinking, gambling, brawling, and whoring together. 
 
Cowboys, as a group, in this second view of a cowboy, are raucous.  They seek excitement, such as participating in rodeo events: bull riding, calf roping, etc.  They are expected to "whoop it up" for joy during such events.  They are supposed to be so enthusiastic about  participation in dangerous events (sports or otherwise) that they ignore the possibility of their suffering the injuries that typically occur during such events. 
 
Because "wild" cowboys - as a group - provide work that has been historically vital to the cattle ranching and the other agricultural livestock "industries" of the American West, their leisure pursuits seem to be tolerated by the settler culture of the American West - much more than they might otherwise be.  Cowboys are seen as "boys being boys," in other words, as opposed to being thought of as "dangerous" lawbreakers.
 
Jack quit the rodeo because he was already "busted up" and wanted to get out while he was still able to walk away from it.  Ennis, like his father, was never interested in the "8-second ride" (on the back of a bull or "bucking bronco") the rodeo offers its participants.
 
But Jack starts out as a "cowboy" - in spirit, at least.  Only then does he begins to move away from it, perhaps often unconsciously.   
 
Yet, when Jack becomes frustrated (and lonely) at not being able to spend as much time with Ennis as he would like, he seeks solace in Mexico - with "boys like you, Jack" - as Ennis puts it.  Mexico, in Ennis's & Jack's time (the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s) is the late 20th century's version of the modern wild frontier - with all of that Latin American nation's corruption, vice, and Third World poverty.
 
Ennis, perhaps never that much interested in the rodeo, enjoys all the ribald, exuberant antics of Jack on Brokeback Mt.  Ennis frequently follows Jack's lead and joins in.
 
 
Part Four: San Francisco & "Wild West" Tolerance; Conformity of "Settler" Society
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
The Old West's "settler" culture side is perhaps more communal than its "Wild West" frontier culture side.  "Settler" culture presumably has greater "community spirit." 
 
There is a larger concern for others within the settler community reaching beyond the self.  The well-being of family and neighbors are important.  At its highest ideal, "settler" culture is not limited to relations of pure mutual self-interest, such as a business deal in the capitalist market economy (for example, a card game in a frontier town saloon or a mining prospectors' partnership with a town bank or merchant).
 
But "settler" culture may also be more conformist than what's typically associated with a "Wild West" frontier town.  For example, San Francisco, as the ultimate gold rush city (a type of Wild West frontier town), dates its rapid growth dating from the California gold rush of 1849.  San Francisco has a cultural heritage of independent thought and tolerance for the differences between people.  This tolerance, of course, has long included those who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender. 
 
Obviously, San Francisco has always been very different than the cultural world that Ennis perceives himself as being part of: the conservative rural Wyoming of the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s.
 
For Buddhism, the "settler" and "outlaw" cultures of the Old West probably each have  separate advantages and disadvantages of their own.  Certainly, Buddhism would be cautious about the high passions released on the lawless, violent, wild frontier of the Old West.
 
Uncontrolled passions run riot in the wild frontier of Old West legend.  These often lead to violent confrontations in shoot outs, pistol duels, hangings, etc.
 
Gold fever, for example, is an uncontrolled desire to find that precious metal.  It consumes those who fall to prey to it.  Miners and "claim jumpers" kill each other over it.
 
But the frontier Wild West is also free of the moribund social traditions of Old West "settler" culture.  Such stagnant traditions trap people in lives of "quiet desperation." 
 
Obviously, the conformist character common to a homophobic culture would lead many to deny their own sexual orientation in order to "fit in" and be "just like everybody else."  When people attempt to believe they are something they are not, they become stricken within anxiety.  They inevitably fail to fill the expectations they've set for themselves (in order to achieve some impossible social ideal imposed upon them).
   
In Zen Buddhism, "beginner's mind," releases the mind from its preconceptions about what society says is the "proper" way for people to live.  Thus, Buddhism might find at least something comendable in the "freedom" offered by the American West's "outlaw" culture.
 
But, again, Buddhism would not accept the criminality or licentiousness of Old West frontier culture, either.  "Beginner's mind" does not release you from the obligation to follow a "right" path in your life, whatever it might be.
 
Jack stares at Ennis on Brokeback Mountain.  Ennis says, "What?" ("What's on your mind now, Jack?"). 
 
Jack tells Ennis that he's taken by surprise: Ennis is suddenly willing to open up and start talking to him:  "Friend, that's more words than you've spoke in the past two weeks." 
Ennis replies, "Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year." 
 
Ennis, in the past year, has been living with his brother.  But there was "no room" for him any longer when his brother got married.
 
Ennis also found himself engaged to Alma.   His silence toward his fiancé, Alma, during that past year is telling.  He hasn't spoke much in the past year.  He probably hasn't spoken much to Alma in that past year.
 
There certainly seems to be a lack of enthusiasm in Ennis about his pending marriage to Alma (maybe a sense of foreboding, too).  Perhaps Ennis is already aware that he lacks a (sexual) interest in women that "everyone" else seems to have. 
 
That makes Ennis different from others, in his own mind.  He doesn't know what to think about this.  Isn't "everyone" supposed to fall in love, get married, settle down, and have children?  That's what Old West "settler" culture tells him. 
 
This self-doubt about not being the "same" (normal), as everyone else, reappears in Ennis throughout the years. 
 
After the first night Ennis & Jack have sex together in the cook camp tent, Ennis comes back the next evening.  He finds Jack lying on his side looking out over the sunset.  He tells Jack, "You know I ain't queer."  Jack responds, "Me neither." 
 
It's interesting that instead of simply declaring, "I ain't queer," Ennis prefaces his declaration (of not being queer) with an additional qualification of: "You know..."  He seeks reassurance from others, including Jack, that they "know" he's not "queer."  That is, Ennis worries about how he appears to other people, even Jack.   
 
Identifying himself with Old West settler culture (in his aspirations to be a "family man," etc.), it is probably no accident that Ennis worries so much about how others perceive him.  "Can people tell who fellas like us are?," as he confides his fears to Jack. 
 
Jack seems taken by surprise by Ennis's worries (about whether people can "tell" who "fellas" like Ennis & Jack are).  Then again, Jack also takes precautions against the revelation of his own homosexuality.  He keeps all the names and telephone numbers of his "friends" in his head, as Lureen tells Ennis when Ennis calls Jack's number in Childress, TX, long distance from Wyoming.
 
 
Part Five:  Ennis as "Settler" Introvert; Jack as "Outlaw" Extrovert
---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Ennis is an introvert.  But introversion shouldn't be mistaken for either a rejection of human contact or a lack of emotion toward others.
 
Ennis does not seek to escape people's company to live his life, alone, as the classic "lone" cowboy.  Rather, he fears the hurt he suffers when others disappoint him.
 
You can sense Ennis feels abandoned by his brother when his brother got married.  It left "no room" for Ennis, anymore, in his own words.  He had been living together with his brother until then.  Ennis responds warmly to Jack, as a friend, when "none was expected" on Brokeback Mt.  It's Alma who sues for divorce, not Ennis. 
 
In the end, as Larry McMurty & Diana Ossana describe it in their Feb. 28, 2006 interview in The Advocate, Ennis chooses his daughter over his usual "workaholic" escapes into his ranch hand job.  In fact, Ennis says his boss can find a new "cowboy" - if he's not going to give Ennis time off to go to his daughter's wedding.
 
Again, just because somebody is an introvert doesn't mean they don't want to have other people in their lives.  Introverts care about others - as little or as much - as extroverts do.  In other words, introverts don't have a psychological "problem" that needs to be overcome. 
 
Introverts are as mentally healthy as extroverts according to the personality theory developed in the Myers-Briggs (Personality) Type Indicator (MBTI).  "Introversion" and "extroversion" (alternately spelled as "extraversion") are simple variations in human personality, to be accepted rather than "cured."
 
Jack is an extrovert.  His wife, Lureen, tells him he's most successful salesman in the farm implement dealership.  (Obviously, for sales of any sorts, being an extrovert can be a great occupational advantage.) 
 
Furthermore, as an extrovert, Jack probably knows how to get along better with people (especially strangers) than Ennis does, especially on social occasions.  But having good social skills doesn't necessarily make you a better human being. 
 
When Jack & Lureen go to a community social event in Childress, TX, Lureen complains that husbands never ask their wives to dance.  Instead of responding to Lureen's hint (that must have been obvious to Jack), he turns to Randall's wife, LaShawn, and asks her to dance, instead.
 
Ennis had asked Jack how things were between Jack & Lureen in their marriage.  In the end, Jack said their marriage could be conducted over the telephone.   Jack adds, "for what it's worth," he found humor in Lureen's busyness at the office, running here and there as a jackrabbit might. 
 
Of course, it wasn't Lureen whom Jack wanted to spend his life with.  In his marriage to Lureen, Jack was left with a pale shadow of the life he wanted for himself (and Ennis).
 
But Jack's neglect of Lureen contributed to the lack of psychological intimacy in his marriage.  These are the highly predictable consequences of neglect.  If you hurt others, they are more likely to avoid you.  If you neglect others, they are more likely to respond with a lack of interest of their own. 
 
It is possible to imagine Ennis - if he had been there - taking Jack quietly aside and objecting to his neglect of Lureen.  Of course, Ennis never even took Alma to the church dance, when she asked. 
 
Ennis preferred to stay at home to watch TV: a program featuring a dark-haired man with 1970s-style long side burns, dressed in a suit, presumably an urbanite.  Perhaps he drew Ennis's sexual interest. (Alma might have seen this, too, perhaps prompting her to ask Ennis to take her to the church dance, in the first place, in order to distract Ennis from what - or who - he was so intently watching on the small black & white television set in their apartment over the laundromat.)
 
The conversation between Lureen and Randall Malone - left stranded together at their table while Jack dances with a very talkative Lashawn - ends uncomfortably in awkwardness before it even starts.  Perhaps seeing Jack's seeming indifference to Lureen's wish to dance with her husband tells Randall that Jack might not be that interested in his marriage.  Randall might take this further: if Jack is not particularly interested in women, Jack might be open to a sexual invitation from a another man.
 
Perhaps Jack would also recognize that Randall, too (an especially quiet husband), would rather be someplace else than with his wife.
 
Ennis and Jack regard their married lives very differently.  Ennis, at least theoretically, takes his marital obligations between husband and wife more seriously than Jack does.
 
At the Siesta Motel in Riverton, WY in 1967, Ennis says that if he had understood in Signal, WY (the last day Ennis & Jack were together after they came down from Brokeback Mt.) what he did now, "things might have been different" between him and Jack.  (Of course, "might have been" is not the same as "would have been.")
 
But since both of them now had wives and children, they had to be "decent."  Of course, Ennis subsequently also "cheats" on Alma, too.  He goes on frequent "fishing trips" with Jack.
 
Being a "decent" member of the community is how "settlers" viewed their lives in the Old West.  "Outlaws" and "cowboys" were less concerned about this sort of "decency."  They, or course (as "outlaws") seem disinterested in most of the other sorts of "decency" law-abiding society demands.
 
The most important difference (contradiction) between "settler" and "outlaw" is not whether all settlers are "urban" and all outlaws are "rural."  "Outlaws" on the Wild West frontier, such as saloon keepers, dance hall girls, gamblers, etc. are often found in "town."  (Of course, all cowboys are "rural," by definition, since their economic profession is an agricultural occupation.)   
 
It's also not even a question of whether all settlers are "extrovert" and all outlaws are "introvert."  Again, many outlaws, including drunken brawlers, six gun duelers, even train robbers - as well as saloon keepers, dance hall girls, and gamblers - are "extroverts," too.
 
Nor, again, are all cowboys "introverts," either.  Jack, herding sheep out in the open on Brokeback Mountain, remains an "extrovert."  He enjoys talking, roughhousing, and joking with Ennis, encouraging an introverted Ennis to open up.
 
Rather, the primary difference between the Old West "settler" and the Old West "outlaw" is how they view themselves in regard to their society (community).  As a "settler" - even though preferring to be settled on an isolated ranch far from town - Ennis still takes keen interest in being a father to his daughters, Alma, Jr. and Jenny. 
 
In contrast, Jack, seems willing to walk away from his wife, Lureen, and his son, Bobby.  While he may have enjoyed letting his young son drive a big tractor in the farm implement dealership parking lot, he would have left both Lureen and Bobby without a second thought, without a glance backwards, in order to have a "sweet life" together with Ennis.
 
Jack is a rebel.  The "outlaw" side of his character can be found in his willingness to make a "deal" with Lureen's father, L.D. Newsome.  In exchange for leaving Lureen, Jack thinks her father will offer him a sum of money.   Jack proposes in the Siesta Motel in 1967 that he and Ennis can use this money to start up a ranch of their own.
 
There lies the contrast between Ennis (as an admittedly introverted) "settler" (who's also terrified of public exposure of his homosexuality) and Jack (as a cowboy "outlaw").  It can be found in their differing priorities in their romantic lives (as homosexual lovers) for doing what might be in the best interest of their wives and children. 
 
Even for married men in the heterosexual "mainstream," promiscuity is viewed as a questionable way to lead your "social" life, at best.  (A sexual double standard about promiscuity continues to exist in the heterosexual mainstream.  It encourages men to be promiscuous - at least to some degree.  But women are supposed to be in love with their sexual partners.  In the Victorian era of the 19th century, women were supposed to "keep" themselves virgins until they got married, too.)
 
Jack is very promiscuous.
 
Furthermore - as Ennis well knows - it's not women with whom Jack is promiscuous.  However good Jack keeps up an appearance of heterosexual masculinity, Jack's homosexuality will always place him outside of the heterosexual mainstream, of course.
 
Jack, if anything, is far removed the "settler" values of (heterosexual) family, stability, etc.  (Yet Jack, more than anything else, also seeks a stable, long term cohabitation with his male lover, Ennis.  When Jack decides this is no longer possible - on their last day together, the May 1983 argument - he seeks it with Randall.)
 
Of course, as Ennis sees it, Jack is caught by the "thing" between them.  Jack is so emotionally overwhelmed with Ennis, he finds it difficult, if not impossible to have any thoughts to spare for the wife and son he has in Childress, TX.
 
In the Siesta Motel, Ennis declares - to Jack - that he's "wrung it out a hunert times" thinking (fantasizing) about Jack.  He's never thought of anyone else (another man).
 
Jack, telling a lie, says he's never thought of anyone else, either.  (Annie Proulx adds in the short story that Jack rode the bulls rather than rolled his "own.")
 
In a contest between "settlers" and "outlaws," Ennis's preferred cultural identity is his being a "settler."  Ennis's declaration of himself as committed to his marriage to Alma in the Siesta Motel (even as a pretense of homosexual monogamy) would place him outside the "outlaw" camp. 
 
Ennis tells Jack they have to remain "decent" in Riverton, WY in 1967 (the first night they are together since Brokeback Mt.).  In the movie, before Jack comes back into his life in 1967, Ennis fought against "outlaw" bikers who used "rough language" in the presence of wives and children at a 4th of July "family" event.
 
Ennis also chooses a (presumably genuine) homosexual monogamy for himself.  (He says he only thinks of Jack, not other men.) 
 
Gay culture, in general, is very tolerant of most, if not all, types of sexual activities between consenting adults.  Ennis might not choose homosexual promiscuity for himself   but I don't think he'd be morally judgmental about it in others (with the possible exception of his lover, Jack). 
 
In the Siesta Motel, Ennis says that in order for he and Jack to remain decent, they have to remain apart (except once in a while, when and where the "thing" can't harm them).  They need to be careful in case they become overpowered by their emotions for each other, again.  "If you can't fix it, you have to stand it."
 
Of course, Ennis is also afraid of the public exposure of his homosexuality.  But fear is not what Ennis aspires to.  Ennis, in part, aims to do what he feels is "right."  That's a "settler's" perspective, as opposed to an "outlaw's" wild frontier perspective.
 
At the very least, Ennis is probably much more attracted to men, members of his own gender, rather than to women.  But any degree of bisexuality in Ennis would probably be small, in my opinion.  (Women don't seem to excite him.  But Jack does.)
 
So, what must he do to be "right" by Alma and his daughters?  Ennis may be sexually attracted to men rather than women.  Nevertheless, he is married to Alma.  He has a commitment to her. 
 
Ennis does not see her as his ideal romantic partner (since she does not belong to his own gender, the one most sexually exciting to Ennis).  But he knows that she, too, has made a commitment to him (as her romantic ideal). 
 
It's not easy for Ennis to just walk away from his marriage, as Jack seems very willing to do from his marriage to Lureen.  Furthermore, Ennis's commitment as a father to his daughters, if anything, is even more important to him than his marriage. 
 
Ennis also likes being a father. 
 
He tells Jack that he would have like to have had a boy, just as Jack and Lureen do, with their son, Bobby.  Although he said nothing, Ennis must have been taken aback when Jack said he wanted neither sons nor daughters: "none of neither" (in the Siesta Motel, in 1967, that night on the day they had first seen each other in four years).
 
Again, even though Ennis loves Jack, he does not feel free to leave his family.  All he feels he can offer Jack is their getting together "once in a while, way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, but..."  (Jack then cuts in, "Once in a while? Every four fu**in' years?")
 
For Ennis, Jack (a cowboy "outlaw") may represent a side of himself that he is attracted to.  But, as a "settler," Ennis sets being a stable "family man" as his ideal.  He won't allow this attraction to deter him from what Ennis sees as the "right" course to take in his life.
 
Ennis, here, is torn by contradictory emotions and values.  (Ennis does agree to see Jack more than every four years, going on frequent "fishing" trips with him while he remains married to Alma and Jack remains married to Lureen.)
 
Something similar also happens in Jack but in reverse.  Perhaps attracted to Ennis's settler side, Jack begins to fantasize about how the two of them can begin to spend the rest of their lives together.
 
This is not something Jack ever discusses openly (as far as we know) on Brokeback Mountain.  It is the young Jack - 19 yrs. old, with wavy hair and buck teeth - whom Ennis dreams about when he awakes with wet sheets.  But even the young Jack asked Ennis directly, in Signal, WY after they came down from Brokeback Mountain, if Ennis was coming back next year to herd. 
 
The young Jack, when next year came, asked Joe Aguirre if Ennis del Mar had been around.  (Whereupon, in typically bruising words, Joe Aguirre says he doesn't want either of them since they were too busy "stemming the rose" to take care of the sheep.)
 
Yet, without Ennis (to keep him from becoming so lonely he can hardly stand it), Jack is promiscuous ("riding the bulls, rather than roll his own").  Perhaps that changed when Randall asks Jack if he wants to spend a weekend in a cabin.
 
After telling Jack they have to remain decent (by staying with their wives and families), Ennis concludes, "If you can't fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it."  Jack responds, "For how long?"  Jack may be attempting to get Ennis to comprehend the magnitude of this decision.  They will be apart for long periods of time.  They will be together only briefly, then separated again, back to living the pretense of a heterosexual life, a prospect that excites neither of them. 
 
Ennis tries to reassure Jack that they can "ride it" for as long as they can.  (Ennis is saying he won't abandon Jack, even if they can only see each other only briefly, on rare occasions.) 
 
Ennis adds, as a declaration, "There ain't no reins on this one."  It's almost as if he's telling Jack that he won't put any reins on his love for Jack (just as Jack has decided not to put any reins on what Ennis calls the "thing").
 
But Ennis has done just the opposite.  He's tightened the reins severely on the "ride" he's having with Jack.  If they were tightened anymore, he'd choke the horse and kill the "ride."  (In other words, he'd have to become completely abstinent from all sex with Jack.)
 
Ennis attempts to restrain the "thing" from ever taking hold of him (and Jack) in the wrong place, at the wrong time.  Public exposure of their homosexuality could expose them to Old West "vigilante" justice.  (It would not have been surprised Ennis if his father had practiced this sort of justice against Earl, the old gay rancher, whose body lay in the irrigation ditch.  Ennis's father had showed it to Ennis and his older brother, K.E., when they were 9 years and 11 years old.) 
 
Of course, Ennis is afraid of what could happen to him and Jack.  He sought to avoid the risks the "thing" posed to them.  He feared a recurrence of the overwhelming emotions that took over their "good judgment" when Ennis initiated his kiss with Jack at the bottom of the landing steps up to the apartment over the laundromat in Riverton, WY.
 
Ennis had looked to see if anybody was watching them, before letting himself being taken over by the "thing" take  over, too, at the bottom of the landing steps.  He may have never realized that he hadn't been careful enough.   Alma saw what happened from behind the apartment screen door.
 
 
Part Six: "If You Can't Fix It, You Gotta Stand It"; Stoicism; Buddhist 8-Fold Path
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
"If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it" is as good of a summation of stoic philosophy as you might find anywhere.  It defies desire.  It stands for doing what's "right," no matter how much emotion (desire) says to do otherwise. 
 
It spurns the happiness that desire offers us an illusion (a deceiving appearance that turns us back toward our experiencing still more suffering).  If we succumb to desire, Buddhism says it will lead us to the opposite result we hope for.
 
Buddhism offers the "8-fold path" as a precursor to a way of understanding the world that can end our suffering in it. 
 
These 8 points are:
1.) Right Speech
    (speak in a non-hurtful, non-exaggerating, truthful way)
2.) Right Actions
    (wholesome action, avoiding action that would do harm)
3.) Right Livelihood
    (not harmful in any way to oneself or others; directly or indirectly)
4.) Right Effort/Exercise
    (make continuing efforts to improve)
5.) Right Mindfulness/Awareness
    (know things for what they are in a clear, conscious way)
6.) Right Concentration/Meditation
    (examining the present reality within oneself, without craving, without aversion) 
7.) Right Understanding
    (understand reality as it is, not just as it appears to be)
8.) Right Thoughts
    (change the pattern of thinking, to correct erroneous or wrong thoughts)
 
 
Secrets of the Dead (PBS)
"Death at Jamestown"
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_jamestown/index.html
 
Wikipedia: Saddle bronc and bareback riding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddle_bronc_and_bareback_riding
 
Memorable Quotes for Brokeback Mountain (2005)
Internet Movie Data Base (imdb.com)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/quotes "Brokeback's big secrets"

Anne Stockwell interview with "Brokeback Mountain" screenwriters: Larry McMurtry & Diana Ossana
The Advocate (February 28, 2006)
http://www.advocate.com/issue_story_ektid25277.asp
 
"Myers-Briggs Type Indicator" (Wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers_Briggs_Type_Indicator "Buddhism" (Wikipedia)

The Noble Eightfold Path
Main article: Noble Eightfold Path
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism 
 
« Last Edit: Sep 09, 2008, 07:29 AM by tpe »
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

Offline rimasworld

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1574
  • If ya can't fix it ya gotta stand it
Very good points, Tammy.

I do think that Ennis openly acknowledged Jack's greater social mobility as well as his greater finesse as far as other people are concerned.  "Some high class entertainment" is one example where we see Ennis poking fun at Jack's world -- a world that Ennis felt he didn't belong. 

Lureen definietly felt that Jack was someone she could be seen with in public occasions, such as the one when Jack met Randall. 

I do think that Ennmis's excuse to Alma was purely a spur of the moment response, in the same way as "He's from Texas" was.  To bring back the Buddhist vein into this, I must say that Ennis being oblivious to Alma while he was packing for the fishing trip is one of those "Zen" moments in the film, where we see Ennis in a totally different plane of consicousness.  It is telling that such as state is rooted on the element of desire.


I agree, Ennis' body may have been there with Alma but his spirit was elsewhere with Jack and I think it was this way many times during that marriage.   

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Thanks jetzenpolis.  There is a lot of materia in your last post, and perhaps I would want to pick up on a few elements for starters.  I think you or someone else had elucidated a number of points before -- no?

There is one crucial element where stoicism diverges from Buddhism: in that virtue in the former is the same as right reason, whereas in the latter, all reason (and therefore virtue itself) is illusion.   

Hence, Seneca:

Quare non est ullum bonum altero maius? quia non est quicquam apto aptius, quia plano nihil est planius. Non potes dicere hoc magis par esse alicui quam illud; ergo nec honesto honestius quicquam est. Quod si par omnium virtutum natura est, tria genera bonorum in aequo sunt. Ita dico: in aequo est moderate gaudere et moderate dolere. Laetitia illa non vincit hanc animi firmitatem sub tortore gemitus devorantem: illa bona optabilia, haec mirabilia sunt, utraque nihilominus paria, quia quidquid incommodi est vi tanto maioris boni tegitur. Quisquis haec imparia iudicat ab ipsis virtutibus avertit oculos et exteriora circumspicit. Bona vera idem pendent, idem patent: illa falsa multum habent vani; itaque speciosa et magna contra visentibus, cum ad pondus revocata sunt, fallunt. Ita est, mi Lucili: quidquid vera ratio commendat solidum et aeternum est, firmat animum attollitque semper futurum in excelso. illa quae temere laudantur et vulgi sententia bona sunt inflant inanibus laetos; rursus ea quae timentur tamquam mala iniciunt formidinem mentibus et illas non aliter quam animalia specie periculi agitant. Utraque ergo res sine causa animum et diffundit et mordet: nec illa gaudio nec haec metu digna est. Sola ratio immutabilis et iudicii tenax est; non enim servit sed imperat sensibus. Ratio rationi par est, sicut rectum recto; ergo et virtus virtuti; nihil enim aliud est virtus quam recta ratio. Omnes virtutes rationes sunt; rationes sunt, si rectae sunt; si rectae sunt, et pares sunt. Qualis ratio est, tales et actiones sunt; ergo omnes pares sunt; nam cum similes rationi sint, similes et inter se sunt. Pares autem actiones inter se esse dico qua honestae rectaeque sunt; ceterum magna habebunt discrimina variante materia, quae modo latior est, modo angustior, modo illustris, modo ignobilis, modo ad multos pertinens, modo ad paucos. In omnibus tamen istis id quod optimum est par est: honestae sunt. Tamquam viri boni omnes pares sunt qua boni sunt, sed habent differentias aetatis: alius senior est, alius iunior; habent corporis: alius formosus, alius deformis est; habent fortunae: ille dives, hic pauper est, ille gratiosus, potens, urbibus notus et populis, hic ignotus plerisque et obscurus. Sed per illud quo boni sunt pares sunt.

(Why is no good greater than any other good? It is because nothing can be more fitting than that which is fitting, and nothing more level than that which is level.  You cannot say that one thing is more equal to a given object than another thing; hence also nothing is more honourable than that which is honourable.  Accordingly, if all the virtues are by nature equal, the three varieties of goods are equal.  This is what I mean: there is an equality between feeling joy with self- control and suffering pain with self-control.  The joy in the one case does not surpass in the other the steadfastness of soul that gulps down the groan when the victim is in the clutches of the torturer; goods of the first kind are desirable, while those of the second are worthy of admiration; and in each case they are none the less equal, because whatever inconvenience attaches to the latter is compensated by the qualities of the good, which is so much greater.  Any man who believes them to be unequal is turning away from the virtues themselves and is surveying mere externals; true goods have the same weight and the same width. The spurious sort contain much emptiness; hence, when they are weighed in the balance, they are found wanting, although they look imposing and grand to the gaze. Yes, my dear Lucilius, the good which true reason approves is solid and everlasting; it strengthens the spirit and exalts it, so that it will always be on the heights; but those things which are thoughtlessly praised, and are goods in the opinion of the mob merely puff us up with empty joy.  And again, those things which are feared as if they were evils merely inspire trepidation in men's minds, for the mind is disturbed by the semblance of danger, just as animals are disturbed. Hence it is without reason that both these things distract and sting the spirit; the one is not worthy of joy, nor the other of fear.  It is reason alone that is unchangeable, that holds fast to its decisions.  For reason is not a slave to the senses, but a ruler over them.  Reason is equal to reason, as one straight line to another; therefore virtue also is equal to virtue.  Virtue is nothing else than right reason.  All virtues are reasons.  Reasons are reasons, if they are right reasons.  If they are right, they are also equal. As reason is, so also are actions; therefore all actions are equal.  For since they resemble reason, they also resemble each other.  Moreover, I hold that actions are equal to each other in so far as they are honourable and right actions.  There will be, of course, great differences according as the material varies, as it becomes now broader and now narrower, now glorious and now base, now manifold in scope and now limited.  However, that which is best in all these cases is equa]; they are all honourable. In the same way, all good men, in so far as they are good, are equal.  There are, indeed, differences of age, one is older, another younger; of body, one is comely, another is ugly; of fortune, - this man is rich, that man poor, this one is influential, powerful, and well-known to cities and peoples, that man is unknown to most, and is obscure.  But all, in respect of that wherein they are good, are equal.  The senses do not decide upon things good and evil; they do not know what is useful and what is not useful. They cannot record their opinion unless they are brought face to face with a fact; they can neither see into the future nor recollect the past; and they do not know what results from what.  But it is from such knowledge that a sequence and succession of actions is woven, and a unity of life is created, a unity which will proceed in a straight course.  Reason, therefore, is the judge of good and evil; that which is foreign and external she regards as dross, and that which is neither good nor evil she judges as merely accessory, insignificant and trivial.  For all her good resides in the soul. )


In this sense, "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it" is truly closer to stoicism in the classic sense, and that the purging of desires in this case only approximates the Buddhist view.  For Ennis looks upon this as a necessary (or necessitated) virtue, rather than as a rejection of all things illusionary...



Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
I agree, Ennis' body may have been there with Alma but his spirit was elsewhere with Jack and I think it was this way many times during that marriage.   

So true.  Alma and the marriage often looked like an illusion, and that all reality was in his interior love for Jack.

Offline jetzenpolis

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Gender: Male
  • jetzenpolis
Seneca's stoicism vs. Buddhism
« Reply #86 on: Sep 09, 2008, 07:38 PM »
Thanks jetzenpolis.  There is a lot of material in your last post, and perhaps I would want to pick up on a few elements for starters.  I think you or someone else had elucidated a number of points before -- no?

There is one crucial element where stoicism diverges from Buddhism: in that virtue in the former is the same as right reason, whereas in the latter, all reason (and therefore virtue itself) is illusion.   

Hence, Seneca:

(...Accordingly, if all the virtues are by nature equal, the three varieties of goods are equal.  This is what I mean: there is an equality between feeling joy with self- control and suffering pain with self-control.  The joy in the one case does not surpass in the other the steadfastness of soul that gulps down the groan when the victim is in the clutches of the torturer; goods of the first kind are desirable, while those of the second are worthy of admiration...The spurious sort [of "good" (or seemingly "desirable") qualities, "good" (or seemingly "desirable") character traits, "good" (or seemingly "desirable") events, (or seemingly "desirable") "good" (or seemingly "desirable") material conditions, (or seemingly "desirable") good "emotions," etc.] contain much emptiness; hence, when they are weighed in the balance, they are found wanting, although they look imposing and grand to the gaze. Yes, my dear Lucilius, the good which true reason approves is solid and everlasting; it strengthens the spirit and exalts it, so that it will always be on the heights; but those things which are thoughtlessly praised, and are goods in the opinion of the mob merely puff us up with empty joy.  And again, those things which are feared as if they were evils merely inspire trepidation in men's minds, for the mind is disturbed by the semblance of danger, just as animals are disturbed. Hence it is without reason that both these things distract and sting the spirit; the one is not worthy of joy, nor the other of fear.  It is reason alone that is unchangeable, that holds fast to its decisions.  For reason is not a slave to the senses, but a ruler over them....Virtue is nothing else than right reason.  All virtues are reasons...For since they resemble reason, they also resemble each other.  Moreover, I hold that actions are equal to each other in so far as they are honourable and right actions... that which is best in all these cases is equal; they are all honourable. In the same way, all good men, in so far as they are good, are equal.  There are, indeed, differences of age, one is older, another younger; of body, one is comely, another is ugly; of fortune, - this man is rich, that man poor, this one is influential, powerful, and well-known to cities and peoples, that man is unknown to most, and is obscure.  But all, in respect of that wherein they are good, are equal.  The senses do not decide upon things good and evil; they do not know what is useful and what is not useful. They cannot record their opinion unless they are brought face to face with a fact; they can neither see into the future nor recollect the past; and they do not know what results from what.  But it is from such knowledge that a sequence and succession of actions is woven, and a unity of life is created, a unity which will proceed in a straight course.  Reason, therefore, is the judge of good and evil; that which is foreign and external she regards as dross, and that which is neither good nor evil she judges as merely accessory, insignificant and trivial.  For all her good resides in the soul. )


In this sense, "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it" is truly closer to stoicism in the classic sense, and that the purging of desires in this case only approximates the Buddhist view.  For Ennis looks upon this as a necessary (or necessitated) virtue, rather than as a rejection of all things illusionary...




Thanks tpe

I absolutely agree with you that Ennis's philosophy in "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it," more closely approximates Seneca's classical stoicism than Buddhism, although both seek to move past "desire" (craving).  As I understand it, Seneca is saying - in this quote -that "right" reason poses solutions (paths of actions) that may require great suffering for people to successfully traverse their pursuit of what's "good."  The victim of torture refuses to talk, for example. 

In Seneca's stoicism, Ennis must decide, one way or the other, whether the "good" is found in either staying married to Alma and keeping his family intact or sharing his life with Jack (or some combination of the two).  There is pain associated with either decision for Ennis.  But the "good" (decision), according to Seneca, "is what it is," whatever it might be.  Ennis must choose it and abide by the consequences.  In other words, since he "can't fix it" (by making everyone happy, including himself), he must "stand it" (live with the pain following upon taking one course of action in life rather than another).

In fact, Buddhism claims that there is always a "fix" to the situation (no matter what it is): the end of "desire."  The cessation of (craving) desire is the end of suffering.  In other words, Buddhism says that once Ennis's (craving) desires ceases, there would be no need for him to have to "stand it" any longer because his situation (his predicaments) would no longer cause him suffering.  The subsequent clearing of his mind would enable him to obtain greater mental capacities (intellectually, emotionally, intuitively) to find the "right path" (best solution) to the problems and questions facing him.

Ennis struggles to find a "balance" between achieving the "good" (an ideal point which can satisfy the competing claims on him of his marriage to Alma; his being a "decent" parent to Alma, Jr. & Jenny; and his love for Jack) that causes the least amount of emotional harm (suffering) to each of them. 

It's a difficult balance that, in the end, fails.  Alma decides she's had "enough" and divorces Ennis.
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: Seneca's stoicism vs. Buddhism
« Reply #87 on: Sep 10, 2008, 08:11 AM »
Thanks tpe

I absolutely agree with you that Ennis's philosophy in "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it," more closely approximates Seneca's classical stoicism than Buddhism, although both seek to move past "desire" (craving).  As I understand it, Seneca is saying - in this quote -that "right" reason poses solutions (paths of actions) that may require great suffering for people to successfully traverse their pursuit of what's "good."  The victim of torture refuses to talk, for example. 

In Seneca's stoicism, Ennis must decide, one way or the other, whether the "good" is found in either staying married to Alma and keeping his family intact or sharing his life with Jack (or some combination of the two).  There is pain associated with either decision for Ennis.  But the "good" (decision), according to Seneca, "is what it is," whatever it might be.  Ennis must choose it and abide by the consequences.  In other words, since he "can't fix it" (by making everyone happy, including himself), he must "stand it" (live with the pain following upon taking one course of action in life rather than another).

In fact, Buddhism claims that there is always a "fix" to the situation (no matter what it is): the end of "desire."  The cessation of (craving) desire is the end of suffering.  In other words, Buddhism says that once Ennis's (craving) desires ceases, there would be no need for him to have to "stand it" any longer because his situation (his predicaments) would no longer cause him suffering.  The subsequent clearing of his mind would enable him to obtain greater mental capacities (intellectually, emotionally, intuitively) to find the "right path" (best solution) to the problems and questions facing him.

Ennis struggles to find a "balance" between achieving the "good" (an ideal point which can satisfy the competing claims on him of his marriage to Alma; his being a "decent" parent to Alma, Jr. & Jenny; and his love for Jack) that causes the least amount of emotional harm (suffering) to each of them. 

It's a difficult balance that, in the end, fails.  Alma decides she's had "enough" and divorces Ennis.

I agree with your distinction, jetzenpolis.  Indeed, Ennis equates the virtuous path to what is rational or reasonable, and the consequences must be borne, because reason is above feeling.  The fact that he pretty much confesses to failure or near-failure ("I can't stand this any more, Jack") does not change his determination to "stand" it even at that painful moment.  There is virtue even in suffering and defeat.

The "fix" in Buddhism is certainly different from this.  And you know, I wonder whether in the end, Ennis moves closer to this, although the tears in the end would suggest that he is still far from perfect in the Buddhist sense.  The tears would seemingly imply that he is still "standing" it, and that suffering had not ceased.


Offline jetzenpolis

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Gender: Male
  • jetzenpolis
Seneca's stoicism: "equality" of virtues
« Reply #88 on: Sep 11, 2008, 07:52 PM »
Hence, Seneca:

(Why is no good greater than any other good? It is because nothing can be more fitting than that which is fitting, and nothing more level than that which is level...Accordingly, if all the virtues are by nature equal, the three varieties of goods are equal.  This is what I mean: there is an equality between feeling joy with self- control and suffering pain with self-control.  The joy in the one case does not surpass in the other the steadfastness of soul that gulps down the groan when the victim is in the clutches of the torturer; goods of the first kind are desirable, while those of the second are worthy of admiration; and in each case they are none the less equal, because whatever inconvenience attaches to the latter is compensated by the qualities of the good, which is so much greater.  Any man who believes them to be unequal is turning away from the virtues themselves and is surveying mere externals...)



...Indeed, Ennis equates the virtuous path to what is rational or reasonable, and the consequences must be borne, because reason is above feeling.  The fact that he pretty much confesses to failure or near-failure ("I can't stand this any more, Jack") does not change his determination to "stand" it even at that painful moment.  There is virtue even in suffering and defeat.

You said it perfectly, tpe! ...

I think Ennis's stoicism, along with his compassion, his ability to remain cool-headed when faced with the aggressions (verbal and otherwise) of "stud ducks," is one of the qualities I most admire about him.  His determination to "stand it" is remarkable. 

It flies in the face of certain attitudes, at their most popular in the 1960s "sexual revolution," that equate the conscious release of libido to "love."  ("Make love, not war," is an example of a popular slogan of the time containing this idea.)  In other words, if we just had sex, we would "liberate" ourselves (from the constraints of a repressive, anti-creative, war-like, violence-prone, profit-obsessed exploitive society). 

Obviously, gay rights benefited tremendously from the liberations that the sexual revolution did offer.  After all, it was the sexual revolution that successfully promoted the view that all sexual relations between consenting adults (as long as these don't involve violence) was "permissable."

But the proponents of the sexual revolution claimed too much on behalf of its possibilities of human "liberation."  Yes, it's good to reclaim sensual pleasure from a rigid moral code that seeks to contain sexuality within a very tightly enforced set of boundaries (sex only within heterosexual marriage, only for the sake of producing children, etc.).  But having lots of sex, as much as you want, whenever you want it, with whomever you want it does not "guarantee" you will become a better human being.  (The world is filled with lots of cruel, narrow-minded people, who care nothing about others, but who - nevertheless - have had lots of sex.)

A complete abandonment to sensuality risks sexual addiction, too.  Within the gay community - whether it's the gay mainstream or "butch" gay masculinity - there is often a celebration of a sort of blind, wrong-headed, thrill-seeking, constant pursuit of (sexual) "excitement." 

It's not only gay men who fall prey to these obsessive-compulsive attitudes about sex but also heterosexual men.  In fact, in American society, men often seem traditionally limited to only two emotions: 1.) anger; 2.) excitement (thrill-seeking).

In many ways, Ennis provides a counterpoint to all of this.  He's often emotionally vulnerable.  (He regrets the loss of the sheep's life to wild predators when he returns to the herd camp the next day after he first has sex with Jack in the cook camp tent, for example.  He nervously, humbly rests his head on Jack's chest the second night he returns to their tent.) 

But he's also strong and exacting - at least, in his own mind - about what his remaining "decent" requires of him.

The "fix" in Buddhism is certainly different from this.  And you know, I wonder whether in the end, Ennis moves closer to this, although the tears in the end would suggest that he is still far from perfect in the Buddhist sense.  The tears would seemingly imply that he is still "standing" it, and that suffering had not ceased.

Very few of us have achieved complete "enlightenment," in the Buddhist sense.  As far as I might understand it, enlightenment is a full conscious awareness of: (craving) desire as the source of suffering. 

(Buddhism is very hesitant about descriptions of "enlightenment."  It warns us not to trust claims of enlightenment.  Zen says those who are enlightened will never claim to be "enlightened," for example.  There is a Zen koan that says, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.")

But if we are not fully rid of desire, we can still move ourselves forward in that direction.  Of course, overcoming desire may require us to face the pain of a sense of loss.   Thus, there may be many tears and groans as we pull ourselves away from that we clutch at desperately to hold tightly within our grasp.  (Ennis still cries because he still craves the companionship of his lover, Jack.


In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: Seneca's stoicism: "equality" of virtues
« Reply #89 on: Sep 12, 2008, 07:53 AM »
I think Ennis's stoicism, along with his compassion, his ability to remain cool-headed when faced with the aggressions (verbal and otherwise) of "stud ducks," is one of the qualities I most admire about him.  His determination to "stand it" is remarkable. 

It flies in the face of certain attitudes, at their most popular in the 1960s "sexual revolution," that equate the conscious release of libido to "love."  ("Make love, not war," is an example of a popular slogan of the time containing this idea.)  In other words, if we just had sex, we would "liberate" ourselves (from the constraints of a repressive, anti-creative, war-like, violence-prone, profit-obsessed exploitive society). 

Obviously, gay rights benefited tremendously from the liberations that the sexual revolution did offer.  After all, it was the sexual revolution that successfully promoted the view that all sexual relations between consenting adults (as long as these don't involve violence) was "permissable."

But the proponents of the sexual revolution claimed too much on behalf of its possibilities of human "liberation."  Yes, it's good to reclaim sensual pleasure from a rigid moral code that seeks to contain sexuality within a very tightly enforced set of boundaries (sex only within heterosexual marriage, only for the sake of producing children, etc.).  But having lots of sex, as much as you want, whenever you want it, with whomever you want it does not "guarantee" you will become a better human being.  (The world is filled with lots of cruel, narrow-minded people, who care nothing about others, but who - nevertheless - have had lots of sex.)

A complete abandonment to sensuality risks sexual addiction, too.  Within the gay community - whether it's the gay mainstream or "butch" gay masculinity - there is often a celebration of a sort of blind, wrong-headed, thrill-seeking, constant pursuit of (sexual) "excitement." 


It's not only gay men who fall prey to these obsessive-compulsive attitudes about sex but also heterosexual men.  In fact, in American society, men often seem traditionally limited to only two emotions: 1.) anger; 2.) excitement (thrill-seeking).

In many ways, Ennis provides a counterpoint to all of this.  He's often emotionally vulnerable.  (He regrets the loss of the sheep's life to wild predators when he returns to the herd camp the next day after he first has sex with Jack in the cook camp tent, for example.  He nervously, humbly rests his head on Jack's chest the second night he returns to their tent.) 

But he's also strong and exacting - at least, in his own mind - about what his remaining "decent" requires of him.



There is always that tension between the Apollonian and Dionysian tendencies of human nature, no?  Ennis is perhaps a great embodiment of this tension, as much as Jack is a subtle embodiment of the Dionysian nature, IMO.  The tension is of course very much a part of the sexual revolution and the resulting reaction.  From this same tension also arises Ennis's implicit stoicism, and it also enobles him, in a way -- in spite of his many weaknesses.  It does give him the "decency" that we refer to.


   
Quote
Very few of us have achieved complete "enlightenment," in the Buddhist sense.  As far as I might understand it, enlightenment is a full conscious awareness of: (craving) desire as the source of suffering. 

(Buddhism is very hesitant about descriptions of "enlightenment."  It warns us not to trust claims of enlightenment.  Zen says those who are enlightened will never claim to be "enlightened," for example.  There is a Zen koan that says, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.")

But if we are not fully rid of desire, we can still move ourselves forward in that direction.  Of course, overcoming desire may require us to face the pain of a sense of loss.   Thus, there may be many tears and groans as we pull ourselves away from that we clutch at desperately to hold tightly within our grasp.  (Ennis still cries because he still craves the companionship of his lover, Jack.

Yes, I think this is the best way of understanding the older Ennis in the Buddhistic context.  It is a movement towards enlightenment, brought out through the "dream" of pain and suffering -- a spiritual cleansing of sorts.