Topic: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes

[manhattangirl]

I sometimes think that in the end, love also became something very unreal with Ennis -- the stuff of dreams, I guess.  In this case, the sexual dreams with Jack had become a substitute for the reality.  It is as if dreams became a sort of reality for him.  Would you agree?

Wouldn't you say AP put at the of ss exactly at what all you been saying, the dreams of Jack, the can of beans with spoon handle jutting out of it, that turned into tire irons.  His sheet wet, some times his pillow, the feeling of joy, the feeling of grief.   And the open space between what he knew, and what he tried to believe.

His love for Jack, his need sexually for Jack, and the ever present fear of tire irons.   All will be with him.   Do any of think he's even able to find that resolution, do you think he was even meant to find peace?

[tpe]

Oh absolutely tpe.


From the short story:

"....He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream............lets a panel of the dream slide forward. If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong."

The opening. 

[tpe]

Beautiful and touching. I feel like crying.

That's right about Ennis, Thomas. And OT, I especially relate to those words.

I think in many ways, each of us sometimes live in our dreams, and sometimes, we dream through life.

[tpe]

Wouldn't you say AP put at the of ss exactly at what all you been saying, the dreams of Jack, the can of beans with spoon handle jutting out of it, that turned into tire irons.  His sheet wet, some times his pillow, the feeling of joy, the feeling of grief.   And the open space between what he knew, and what he tried to believe.

His love for Jack, his need sexually for Jack, and the ever present fear of tire irons.   All will be with him.   Do any of think he's even able to find that resolution, do you think he was even meant to find peace?

The dreams become a marriage of fear and love, don't you think?  And yes, I do think the dreams as described are very sexually charged.  The spoon and tire-iron are very phallic, IMO. 

[aintfoolin]

I feel his dreams of Jack reflected his thoughts. I think it shows he thought of Jack often after his death. I can see him going to sleep hoping to have dreams of him. Maybe he found a profound sad peace within it over time. Also for him a way to keep Jack with him forever. Within his dreams of Jack, he can feel him again, that is the joy for him, but when he awakes it's back to hoping and thinking about him. There had to be so many things in his everyday life that took his mind back to Jack often. Various interactions with friends and loved ones , the mountain setting in the background  postcards and everytime he opened that closet. Reminders that Jack had been there. It all helps to shadow the regrets and no doubt , guilt he carried with him. For him, Jack was so close and yet so far everyday of his life. Perhaps whenever he wanted to feel close to Jack, he'd look to the mountain , or the shirts and find peace in them. In his  daydreams Jack's love once again lives. Jack's gift to him, the lessons of  a love and friendship so strong  that even death can't hold it.

 Wether he ever found true peace or not, that's what I'd  call ,a love everlasting.

[babytammy7]

I feel his dreams of Jack reflected his thoughts. I think it shows he thought of Jack often after his death. I can see him going to sleep hoping to have dreams of him. Maybe he found a profound sad peace within it over time. Also for him a way to keep Jack with him forever. Within his dreams of Jack, he can feel him again, that is the joy for him, but when he awakes it's back to hoping and thinking about him. There had to be so many things in his everyday life that took his mind back to Jack often. Various interactions with friends and loved ones , the mountain setting in the background  postcards and everytime he opened that closet. Reminders that Jack had been there. It all helps to shadow the regrets and no doubt , guilt he carried with him. For him, Jack was so close and yet so far everyday of his life. Perhaps whenever he wanted to feel close to Jack, he'd look to the mountain , or the shirts and find peace in them. In his  daydreams Jack's love once again lives. Jack's gift to him, the lessons of  a love and friendship so strong  that even death can't hold it.

 Wether he ever found true peace or not, that's what I'd  call ,a love everlasting.

OMG AF!! You did it again. I quote your whole heartbreaking so beautiful post!! I'm moved to tears here.  :\'( :\'( :\'( I don't why but just in this moment you touched my heart so deeply with that image of Ennis and his dreams. Damn.  :\'( :\'( :\'( If I could say to you what I'm feeling in this very moment...... :\'( :\'(

[Tony]

    Baby Tammy, Aintfoolin is on a roll.  On another thread, she just called the relationship between Jack and Ennis "a marriage of the heart".  And I just saw your post on the photo thread.  You guys are gonna do me in, so am outta here.  They loved, we loved....and it's a whole lotta hurtin'.

[aintfoolin]

Aww, thanx BT and Tony,. Their story is a sad  :\'(one that can bring so many tears, but there were also moments  of overwelming joy in their story. Moments that also brought tears to my eyes for them. For instance the now infamous reunion scene where hope and joy ruled.
 Neither one really knew what to expect. Jack, driving all the way from Texas on a wing and a prayer that Ennis will recieve him as he hoped he would, but never in his wildest dreams did he think his stoic, now married cowboy, would  bolt down those stairs, arms open before jack got to them, loose all control, and shed all modesty like he did and lay the greatest kiss in all  of moviedom  :d)on him ,practically in the middle of the street of all places!  This was unbeleivible. Jack had to be swept off his feet , caught totally off-guard by Ennis's show of need for him after 4 long years and boy, did it show!  Neither could get close enough , as some have said.The longer Ennis waited in that apartment, the more anxious he became to see em. He had to be telling  himself and coming to the full realization that there trully was "no reins on this one" .
This one was real, Ennis sending up a prayer a thanks for his unexpected luck. His "rodeo" had finally returned, giving him that second chance to never again let him go again.  A chance to correct his mistake of "63".  Though they had to meet in the middle of nowhere, Ennis never did let him go again, until fate intervened, and even then, their love prevailed.
 And Jack, oh my, the thoughts that must have went thru his mind as he redlined it to Riverton, peddle to the metal when Ennis answered the postcard "you bet"  That said Ennis would see him and he could come but..... What would he find? How would Ennis treat him? Would he find Ennis a settled, happily married man, who wanted to put Brokeback behind him and just remain good friends? Put yourself in Jack's place and I'm sure you gotta smile. Ennis was thinking the army got Jack was was possibly killed in the raging war in Vietnam. But there he was, alive and well with that killer smile on his face, in his arms once again.

 It was so sweet to see this and I cried at their newly found  happiness of reunion. I feel that every stolen moment they had together  from then on was filled with this happiness and no matter what happened later on , nothing could take those moments away from them.Yes, there are many moments of sadness in the film where they paid the price for their love, an emotional rollercoaster,  and love definitly hurts sometime,  but remember SNIT and other moments when , outstanding  gladness filled them too. Jack and Ennis ..forever. Thanx.

[babytammy7]

Aww, thanx BT and Tony,. Their story is a sad  :\'(one that can bring so many tears, but there were also moments  of overwelming joy in their story. Moments that also brought tears to my eyes for them. For instance the now infamous reunion scene where hope and joy ruled.
 Neither one really knew what to expect. Jack, driving all the way from Texas on a wing and a prayer that Ennis will recieve him as he hoped he would, but never in his wildest dreams did he think his stoic, now married cowboy, would  bolt down those stairs, arms open before jack got to them, loose all control, and shed all modesty like he did and lay the greatest kiss in all  of moviedom  :d)on him ,practically in the middle of the street of all places!  This was unbeleivible. Jack had to be swept off his feet , caught totally off-guard by Ennis's show of need for him after 4 long years and boy, did it show!  Neither could get close enough , as some have said.The longer Ennis waited in that apartment, the more anxious he became to see em. He had to be telling  himself and coming to the full realization that there trully was "no reins on this one" .
This one was real, Ennis sending up a prayer a thanks for his unexpected luck. His "rodeo" had finally returned, giving him that second chance to never again let him go again.  A chance to correct his mistake of "63".  Though they had to meet in the middle of nowhere, Ennis never did let him go again, until fate intervened, and even then, their love prevailed.
 And Jack, oh my, the thoughts that must have went thru his mind as he redlined it to Riverton, peddle to the metal when Ennis answered the postcard "you bet"  That said Ennis would see him and he could come but..... What would he find? How would Ennis treat him? Would he find Ennis a settled, happily married man, who wanted to put Brokeback behind him and just remain good friends? Put yourself in Jack's place and I'm sure you gotta smile. Ennis was thinking the army got Jack was was possibly killed in the raging war in Vietnam. But there he was, alive and well with that killer smile on his face, in his arms once again.

 It was so sweet to see this and I cried at their newly found  happiness of reunion. I feel that every stolen moment they had together  from then on was filled with this happiness and no matter what happened later on , nothing could take those moments away from them.Yes, there are many moments of sadness in the film where they paid the price for their love, an emotional rollercoaster,  and love definitly hurts sometime,  but remember SNIT and other moments when , outstanding  gladness filled them too. Jack and Ennis ..forever. Thanx.

Damn, Af, you make me cry even with your happy sweet posts.  :\'( :\'( :\'( What you said here is a huge beautiful truth, but hey, a very moving one, so... :\'( :\'( :\'(

[aintfoolin]

Tickets to see this film should a came with a box of tissues,what a roller-coaster ride this was. ! So go on and cry, I've never cried at ANY film before, but this one got me.

Now for something very...ahem... delicate?

BBM sex scene we did'nt see is the motel room scene. Obviously the eventually made it to the bed cuz there they were, all snuggled up and Jack talking about 4 yrs. and swearing to god, he did't know they would get back into it again, then having to relent. Can you imagine this session? Talk about no reins. My god, there could'nt have been any rules here. 4 long yrs worth of pent up passion. I imagine the first time was over pretty fast., the second a marathon. When we see them , they're taking a cigararette break. Ennis looks very sleepy and content, now, some say you can tell by the hair who did what to whom, ,but I don't think roles were their first priority. I imagine they did it all at least one time!.

The conversation afterwards  with Jack asking  "Old Brokeback got us good don't it"? and at that moment Ennis strokes Jack's arm as confirmation. This is what I love about Ennis, he complicated and reserved, but can say so much with one little gesture  or speak loud and clear without one word uttered ( maybe a grunt)such as this. A tribute to Heath Ledger's excellent craft and range as an actor. He totally immersed himself into this character , Ennis Del Mar. They both , he and Jake put heart and soul into these two characters Jack and Ennis and it is what we , the viewer sees coming thru so well. They made us laugh, cry, angry, and glad. i think Brokeback got us all good.  Artistic excellence, personified.

[babytammy7]

Tickets to see this film should a came with a box of tissues,what a roller-coaster ride this was. ! So go on and cry, I've never cried at ANY film before, but this one got me.

Now for something very...ahem... delicate?

BBM sex scene we did'nt see is the motel room scene. Obviously the eventually made it to the bed cuz there they were, all snuggled up and Jack talking about 4 yrs. and swearing to god, he did't know they would get back into it again, then having to relent. Can you imagine this session? Talk about no reins. My god, there could'nt have been any rules here. 4 long yrs worth of pent up passion. I imagine the first time was over pretty fast., the second a marathon. When we see them , they're taking a cigararette break. Ennis looks very sleepy and content, now, some say you can tell by the hair who did what to whom, ,but I don't think roles were their first priority. I imagine they did it all at least one time!.

The conversation afterwards  with Jack asking  "Old Brokeback got us good don't it"? and at that moment Ennis strokes Jack's arm as confirmation. This is what I love about Ennis, he complicated and reserved, but can say so much with one little gesture  or speak loud and clear without one word uttered ( maybe a grunt)such as this. A tribute to Heath Ledger's excellent craft and range as an actor. He totally immersed himself into this character , Ennis Del Mar. They both , he and Jake put heart and soul into these two characters Jack and Ennis and it is what we , the viewer sees coming thru so well. They made us laugh, cry, angry, and glad. i think Brokeback got us all good.  Artistic excellence, personified.

Totally agree!! 

And for sex scene missing and the passion that sure was there...... let me quote Jack in the SS:

“Christ, it got to be all that time a yours a-horseback makes it so goddam good.  

And Ennis was...

Ennis lay spread-eagled, spent and wet, breathing deep, still half tumescent...  Jesus, what an image!!!

I think that says everything about how amazing the sex was!!

[Matt Nasty]

Totally agree!! 

And for sex scene missing and the passion that sure was there...... let me quote Jack in the SS:

“Christ, it got to be all that time a yours a-horseback makes it so goddam good.  

And Ennis was...

Ennis lay spread-eagled, spent and wet, breathing deep, still half tumescent...  Jesus, what an image!!!

I think that says everything about how amazing the sex was!!

i think your right 

[aintfoolin]

Oh...MY...GOD... these images, " spread-eagle, wet and STILL half tumescent? , , That's it!  now ya gone and done it. I'm turning on the fan And we've all seen Ennis "a-horseback" right?. He rides pretty damn good imo!  . They must have been everywhere , the bed, the floor, the chair....god at least they left the lamps upright and the curtains hangin..... and they both appeared to have a little shine to em. This had to be excellent, "gut-wrenching sex. god, now I'm sweating.

[Matt Nasty]

Oh...MY...GOD... these images, " spread-eagle, wet and STILL half tumescent? , , That's it!  now ya gone and done it. I'm turning on the fan And we've all seen Ennis "a-horseback" right?. He rides pretty damn good imo!  . They must have been everywhere , the bed, the floor, the chair....god at least they left the lamps upright and the curtains hangin..... and they both appeared to have a little shine to em. This had to be excellent, "gut-wrenching sex. god, now I'm sweating.

OMG... now im sweating too thinking of jack doing those things 

[manhattangirl]

I guess with Alma it was part of the deal, with Jack it was straight up need.

[Matt Nasty]

The "Was Ennis Gay" and the equivalent Jack threads also have extensive discussions revolving around sexual identity, but I think you mean that their sexual history is relevant to whether they were active or passive? 

The primary question at hand is whether or not each one took on a rigid sexual role (passive vs. active) or whether they were more versatile.  When we discuss their possible sexual histories, perhaps we can make a direct connection to this question?

I'll wait for additional input/comments.

IMO, i think they where versitile. i mean we know in SNIT ennis was the active role. but the way they were lying in the motel scene it appeared to me jack had been the active partner, also the way the ss describe the motel scene and the way everything is after it seems to me as jack was the active partner.

[manhattangirl]

IMO, i think they where versitile. i mean we know in SNIT ennis was the active role. but the way they were lying in the motel scene it appeared to me jack had been the active partner, also the way the ss describe the motel scene and the way everything is after it seems to me as jack was the active partner.

I see your point.

Those non verbal signals were working overtime right from the start of the reunion with the "kiss", Ennis need for Jack, and Jack, surprise, and maybe a bit of anger for Ennis not reaching out for him sooner, left Ennis spread eagle, spent, wet, and with a touch, or move by Jack, could make him start all over again, I could see Jack taking Ennis, and Ennis letting him, Jack would have wanted Ennis in everyway.  Don't you?

[Matt Nasty]

I see your point.

Those non verbal signals were working overtime right from the start of the reunion with the "kiss", Ennis need for Jack, and Jack, surprise, and maybe a bit of anger for Ennis not reaching out for him sooner, left Ennis spread eagle, spent, wet, and with a touch, or move by Jack, could make him start all over again, I could see Jack taking Ennis, and Ennis letting him, Jack would have wanted Ennis in everyway.  Don't you?

i agree, i think there was likely no place on either body, no sensation that coukd be caused, that ennis and jack wouldnt want to explore IMO they wanted to know each other fully body and soul.

[babytammy7]

Oh...MY...GOD... these images, " spread-eagle, wet and STILL half tumescent? , , That's it!  now ya gone and done it. I'm turning on the fan And we've all seen Ennis "a-horseback" right?. He rides pretty damn good imo!  . They must have been everywhere , the bed, the floor, the chair....god at least they left the lamps upright and the curtains hangin..... and they both appeared to have a little shine to em. This had to be excellent, "gut-wrenching sex. god, now I'm sweating.

  You got that right girl!! 

I'm a puddle on the floor!!!  Jesus!!! Jack said that Ennis did it soooooo good...... Need a shower now....

[myprivatejack]

What is this,huh? I'm away for 4 days and when I'm back,you're speaking about SEX in the motel scene¡ And,what's worst,speculating about HOW THIS NIGHT WOULD BE¡       
Imagine two persons who haven't could forget each other for four years and who finally find each other with the same passion,magnified for the time's passing¡ One of them-Ennis-who has learned a lot since his virginal times in BBM and the other-Jack-who has spent these years riding more than bulls... Mix it all and the result gets as long as your imagination could ¡. I think this night there would be no rules,no prohibitions,no fears...         

[manhattangirl]

Exactly, no total submission or total domination of one over the other.  The one thing, the only thing that either could give each other is their bodies, and in the way the other wanted to have him or to be had.   And I think that what scared the heck out of Ennis, he knew where it came to Jack there was no control, or limits and so the rules of engagement for the future.  I just wonder was it out fear of discovery or his fear of what Jack does to him when he's near him.

 

[myprivatejack]

When I was speaking about no fears I meant neither fear of discovering new pleasures and practices,nor fear of anything Jack could do to make him obtain them.Being as Ennis was,surely in another times when routine could weigh more ,his masculinity's image could prevail,but I guess that not in that night...

[manhattangirl]

When I was speaking about no fears I meant neither fear of discovering new pleasures and practices,nor fear of anything Jack could do to make him obtain them.Being as Ennis was,surely in another times when routine could weigh more ,his masculinity's image could prevail,but I guess that not in that night...

I totally understand you, you're talking of Ennis and letting what happen that night happen.  His guard was down that night, passion ruled.

[orangetruck]

I find it a most wonderful irony that it is a manifestation of a passive, hidden love (i.e., the shirts in jack's closet) that finally gets to Ennis.  Passivity can be powerful, especially when it is like grass bending before the strong wind.

I really like the cinematic motion this beautiful statement gives me,  Thomas. 

[tpe]

Thanks oragetruck.    I have to say that passivity can be powerful, especially when the character (i.e., Ennis) isn't even aware of how strong a hold he has on things.

[manhattangirl]

It takes me awhile, tpe speaks of passivity of Ennis, I see it in that SNIT.  Sex was going to happen that night, both knew it, but how the sex would occur.  Ennis's passivity was indeed powerful that night.   

Jack taking touching his arm, taking the hat from his hands, and gently as he could kisses him, Ennis pulls away a little, then yields.  How did this effect Jack, what was it telling Jack?   Would Ennis always yield to him?   Was Jack the only person Ennis felt he didn't have to take, but could be taken. 

How much did this mean to a man like Ennis, to be held, made love to, and yielding to whatever Jack wanted, because in doing that he was loved, being loved, and giving that love in return.   There must be a point in men like Ennis where they feel totally vulnerable, and maybe in the arms of the one person who knows what they need, and gives it to them.

JMO. 

 

[Matt Nasty]

It takes me awhile, tpe speaks of passivity of Ennis, I see it in that SNIT.  Sex was going to happen that night, both knew it, but how the sex would occur.  Ennis's passivity was indeed powerful that night.   

Jack taking touching his arm, taking the hat from his hands, and gently as he could kisses him, Ennis pulls away a little, then yields.  How did this effect Jack, what was it telling Jack?   Would Ennis always yield to him?   Was Jack the only person Ennis felt he didn't have to take, but could be taken. 

How much did this mean to a man like Ennis, to be held, made love to, and yielding to whatever Jack wanted, because in doing that he was loved, being loved, and giving that love in return.   There must be a point in men like Ennis where they feel totally vulnerable, and maybe in the arms of the one person who knows what they need, and gives it to them.

JMO. 

 

good post i think this is very plausible and likely IMO

[tpe]

It takes me awhile, tpe speaks of passivity of Ennis, I see it in that SNIT.  Sex was going to happen that night, both knew it, but how the sex would occur.  Ennis's passivity was indeed powerful that night.   

Jack taking touching his arm, taking the hat from his hands, and gently as he could kisses him, Ennis pulls away a little, then yields.  How did this effect Jack, what was it telling Jack?   Would Ennis always yield to him?   Was Jack the only person Ennis felt he didn't have to take, but could be taken. 

How much did this mean to a man like Ennis, to be held, made love to, and yielding to whatever Jack wanted, because in doing that he was loved, being loved, and giving that love in return.   There must be a point in men like Ennis where they feel totally vulnerable, and maybe in the arms of the one person who knows what they need, and gives it to them.

JMO. 

The way Ennis yields to Jack in the SNIT indeed strikes me as beautiful in that Ennis fully exposes his vulnerability to Jack as in no other time, except perhaps in his collapse close to the end of the last Confrontation.    It was a pure act of giving.

[Matt Nasty]

The way Ennis yields to Jack in the SNIT indeed strikes me as beautiful in that Ennis fully exposes his vulnerability to Jack as in no other time, except perhaps in his collapse close to the end of the last Confrontation.    It was a pure act of giving.

yes a pure submision off all that he was its beautiful

[Raisa]

The way Ennis yields to Jack in the SNIT indeed strikes me as beautiful in that Ennis fully exposes his vulnerability to Jack as in no other time, except perhaps in his collapse close to the end of the last Confrontation.    It was a pure act of giving.

I quote this. Beautifully put together.

Though in the movie we tend to see that Ennis is the more dominant, active in masculine way (sorry I don't have the right words),  SNIT shows something of his other side. I personally have always wanted to think that their roles weren't so tightly fixed, that there were versatileness. I haven't read much fan fic, but some, and after reading fic that shows Ennis predominantly active I have felt little bit disturbed, cos I felt somewhat other way. OK, it is totally a world of its own. In the original AP's story and movie I have seen/wanted to see more variations. Jack is the more flexible, the one who can take different roles - although I see him more submissive by nature - but I just can't see Ennis only dominant. this is what i think and how i want it to be in my imagination.