Author Topic: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes  (Read 90081 times)

Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #120 on: Apr 25, 2008, 07:28 AM »
Fantastic all these last posts¡  :clap: I really believe Jack was in control of the relationship in a more physical way-doubtless for me...-; but in an emotional,psychological and/or sentimental side,he took the control that Ennis and his reactions "allowed" him to have.And,on the other hand,for me is also clear that Jack-as Aintfoolin says-held the key of the relationship and his continuity; if it lasted so many years,it's because Jack knew more or less well how to cope with the situation,forcing Ennis to a point and relaxing "the leash" when his lover could feel himself too anguished and overwhelmed.Sometimes to be able to get something more from him,sometimes for not scaring him...In this sense,as in so many others,they were complementaries,although never completely.

I can see your point.  Certainly, from the point of view of Ennis, Jack had all the things that gave him greater flexibility and more options.  Did Ennis scretly resent this, I wonder?  Perhaps he thought that Jack was more in control of his own destiny, not realizing that he {Ennis) held the missing piece for Jack's fulfillment.  I sense a bit of irony in all this...


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #121 on: Apr 25, 2008, 10:49 AM »
Thanks AF.  I really think your calling to mind Proulx's symbolism behind the Jack Twist name is so apt in this discussion of roles.  In many ways, Jack was really the "rider" here -- the rider in the relationship.    In many ways, he certainly was in control, but he allowed passivity to get the better of him and lose this advantage. 

Did he last the 8 seconds, symbolically speaking? 

I agree, but did he last the whole 8 seconds? I'd say he did.

 His times with Ennis can only be measured in moments. He hung onto the bull as Flower Child said and rode it out for 20 years. Once or twice a year was all he could get. He took it. Was a tough ride , at times hanging on some times on a wing and a prayer. .. It was the love he had for Ennis that sustained him

 Ennis is totally complicated, has his own way of figuring things. All his life Jack had known rejection, and even humiliation., now he's got bigger problems. He finds love, but the man he loves, finds a rejection and a humiliaton for who he is.  The very part of his lover he so desperatly needs.

 Jack was a winner. having  his love for Ennis  tested and was definitly not found lacking. It was proven  tried and true. When everything else in his life seemed out of control, it was the love and need for Ennis, It was  the one  sure thing he knew he had . It gave him hope against all hope  to keep trying. Ennis had no need to test Jack's love  or control for/over him.  Ennis's love and need for Jack WAS Jack's control. 8 seconds, such a short period of time to stay on a raging bull, but it can seem like eons. I think he won the the ride, but after 20 years still could'nt claim the prize.Thanx.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #122 on: Apr 25, 2008, 11:22 AM »
OMG aintfoolin, that was beautiful, imo heartbreakingly accurate, and absolutely made me cry. :\'(  <^(

Thank you for such an insightful description. :^^)
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #123 on: Apr 25, 2008, 12:07 PM »
Thanks FlowrChild , Everytime I watch the film, I am so touched by Jack's human virtues. A true survivor.  %) %)
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #124 on: Apr 25, 2008, 12:35 PM »
 %) too.


You know, I think both these men have so much more going on with them than casual viewers tend to see. I think if you watch the film with not just an open mind, but an open heart, you have the chance to see so much more in them.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #125 on: Apr 25, 2008, 01:20 PM »
%) too.


You know, I think both these men have so much more going on with them than casual viewers tend to see. I think if you watch the film with not just an open mind, but an open heart, you have the chance to see so much more in them.

I agree, what we see in alot of cases is...ourselves. They took us on a journey, along the way, I felt every emotion I have. Jack and Ennis grabbed our hearts and to this day they still won't let go. They taught us that love sometimes hurts deep once it finds you , but that same love can bring a restoration of hope and happiness of a lifetime as long as we remember how we came to know it.Whatever the basis of Jack's love for Ennis was , he must have felt Ennis was worth waiting for.

 Though in the end he did'nt achieve fully what he sought to achieve , but I don't think he would have traded one moment of their time together for the world.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #126 on: Apr 25, 2008, 02:11 PM »
I don't think he would either.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

babytammy7

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #127 on: Apr 25, 2008, 02:20 PM »
I agree, but did he last the whole 8 seconds? I'd say he did.

 His times with Ennis can only be measured in moments. He hung onto the bull as Flower Child said and rode it out for 20 years. Once or twice a year was all he could get. He took it. Was a tough ride , at times hanging on some times on a wing and a prayer. .. It was the love he had for Ennis that sustained him

 Ennis is totally complicated, has his own way of figuring things. All his life Jack had known rejection, and even humiliation., now he's got bigger problems. He finds love, but the man he loves, finds a rejection and a humiliaton for who he is.  The very part of his lover he so desperatly needs.

 Jack was a winner. having  his love for Ennis  tested and was definitly not found lacking. It was proven  tried and true. When everything else in his life seemed out of control, it was the love and need for Ennis, It was  the one  sure thing he knew he had . It gave him hope against all hope  to keep trying. Ennis had no need to test Jack's love  or control for/over him.  Ennis's love and need for Jack WAS Jack's control. 8 seconds, such a short period of time to stay on a raging bull, but it can seem like eons. I think he won the the ride, but after 20 years still could'nt claim the prize.Thanx.

Utterly beautiful as always, AF!!  ^f^ You really know how to touch a heart.

Offline bearhugman

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #128 on: Apr 25, 2008, 07:17 PM »
Well it's so easy for us to think that Jack had any control in this relationship, but believe me, I've been there. Imo, he never thought he had any control. He was just hanging onto Ennis with all his might. He pushed here and there, and backed off when he feared Ennis would get skittish and bolt.

I think tpe's question about him lasting the 8 seconds is perfect, because my answer would be yes. He lasted the full 8 seconds because he rode it as long as he was alive. And just like with a bull, you know that you can never actually control the animal - you just hope that you can hold on and not get thrown.
Just want to thrown in my two cents, and it may have been discussed elsewhere.
It seems to me that the more times I watch their first time on bb the more control of the situation Jack appears to have. He knows what he wants and he seems to know how to get it. But contrast that with his life after, from myself having hope in him, in his 'truthfullness' regarding his love for Ennis and maybe his sense of what is 'right' (for him), to dispare that, once he left Bb he like Ennis becomes just as much a product of their times and place. Jack does not appear to relearn/reawaken his (truthfullness to self ) over the coming years. Entering the eighties could have seen him live his life openly (as gay) in other cities and to be honest he may have been heading that way after 'the last' meeting'.
I perfer to have hope for Ennis as well,  a good example of the road travelled by some in Ennis's situation is a story  by Adam Sutton called 'Say It Out Load' This man over came the harshest internalised homophobia to become true to his sexuallity/self.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #129 on: Apr 25, 2008, 07:57 PM »
I agree fully that it probably never crossed his mind that he was ever in control.  He could have been in control, but it never really crossed his mind to be in such a position, IMO.


"For how long?"

"For as long as we can ride it...  There are no reins on this one..."


He really took this to heart.



I always loved this.

I still find a link back to when they're sorting sheep and Ennis says to Jack: We gotta stick this one out Jack..

For how long

For as long as we can ride it

Ain't no reins on this one.


When they were sorting all the mixed up sheep after slacking off out there falling in love, metaphorically there were no reins. I think, despite how (un)aware Ennis was of his sexuality or attraction towards Jack, he could have been saying this from the moment they shook hands or sooner. Out on a limb, I also like to consider that Jack, from the moment he met Ennis, understood a possible true love was in this other man, and it would be a journey ahead towards the connection he'd make with Ennis. The verbalization and the signs of this force of nature were just trickling down a little Old Rose stream into an oasis of their love. And anytime spent outside of bathing each other here, was the time to dry and crumble and fall apart; in final confrontation, when Jack 'broke the rules' and wanted to bathe outside of that sparce oasis, Ennis indeed crumbled and fell to the ground and held by Jack, he had to confront the love between them. He had to, for the first time, mesh his fear and his love together and know that one does beat the other; fear is only the absense of love.
Later when this sinks through his stoic shell, he pursues jack via postcards, etc. But of course we know where that went. He with the shirts falls apart inside. Now he understands that what he feels naturally inside is as painful, heartbreakingly beautiful, real and more imporant than the paperbag he had carried along the way to an odd-job up on a mountain. What you feel is who you are and who you are is beautiful. I get that sentiment from him when he's in the trailer, adjacent Alma Jr., looking out the window quietly talking to himself, this self that processes the lost love before it does the immediate and practical.
Oh yes he has changed immensely.
Up on Brokeback, SNIT, I believe any thing ("roles" if we must) was open, very open. When you're bathing your lover, you want to clean them all the f*** over.)
« Last Edit: Apr 25, 2008, 08:07 PM by orangetruck »
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #130 on: Apr 26, 2008, 06:24 AM »
amazing post justin :), i loved some of your metaphors like the oasis and abthing that was such a great post :)

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #131 on: Apr 26, 2008, 06:30 AM »
amazing post justin :), i loved some of your metaphors like the oasis and abthing that was such a great post :)

Thanks. There's a darkness and depth and slight spot of light in Ennis' eyes at the end in the trailer, isn't there?
Reminds me of 2 oasis in a dark dark desert with a tiny reflection of the moon in them.
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

manhattangirl

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #132 on: Apr 26, 2008, 07:18 AM »
Ennis, as it was stated earlier was pretty complicated guy.  Trying to live his life, appearing conventional, loving Jack on the "down low", and thinking this all he could expect.  No matter Ennis's "low startle" point, not one time did he ever stop answering Jack's call to him.  Alma or Cassie couldn't quiet the need he had that was only Jack's.  Ennis actively defends Jack against Alma, the truth known he never stops seeing Jack.   He sacrificed that one good paying job, so he could at any moment be with him, and didn't understand why Jack turns on him.

Ennis handles things his own way indeed.  The "Earl and Rich" world, society,  was what he try to protect both of them from.   But Jack himself,  his commitment, his love, his body, was one thing that Ennis had a fear and great need for, but doubted that Jack had the same need for him.  He could kill Jack if ever found out that Jack would give himself to anyone else, or even think of leaving him.  But what could he do really?  No matter how hard Jack tried, or could have tried, talk to him, pushed him, stood on his head and whistle "Dixie", that wouldn't have been enough.  For Ennis the only way for him to understand that they were OK, was something he had to discover for himself, and understand for himself.

For Ennis it was "Will you leave me too?"  so many in his life left him already.

Just a thought.

  

« Last Edit: Apr 27, 2008, 06:24 AM by manhattangirl »

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #133 on: Apr 26, 2008, 07:38 AM »
great post MG parts of that really tugged on my heart strings

Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #134 on: Apr 28, 2008, 08:11 AM »
I agree, but did he last the whole 8 seconds? I'd say he did.

 His times with Ennis can only be measured in moments. He hung onto the bull as Flower Child said and rode it out for 20 years. Once or twice a year was all he could get. He took it. Was a tough ride , at times hanging on some times on a wing and a prayer. .. It was the love he had for Ennis that sustained him

 Ennis is totally complicated, has his own way of figuring things. All his life Jack had known rejection, and even humiliation., now he's got bigger problems. He finds love, but the man he loves, finds a rejection and a humiliaton for who he is.  The very part of his lover he so desperatly needs.

 Jack was a winner. having  his love for Ennis  tested and was definitly not found lacking. It was proven  tried and true. When everything else in his life seemed out of control, it was the love and need for Ennis, It was  the one  sure thing he knew he had . It gave him hope against all hope  to keep trying. Ennis had no need to test Jack's love  or control for/over him.  Ennis's love and need for Jack WAS Jack's control. 8 seconds, such a short period of time to stay on a raging bull, but it can seem like eons. I think he won the the ride, but after 20 years still could'nt claim the prize.Thanx.

OMG aintfoolin, that was beautiful, imo heartbreakingly accurate, and absolutely made me cry. :\'(  <^(

Thank you for such an insightful description. :^^)

I echo FlwrChild's thanks here, AF.  Very beautiful.  Yes, one can be a winner even as one falls in battle.  The fact that Jack's death did bring about a transformation in Ennis made all the difference.




Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #135 on: Apr 28, 2008, 08:17 AM »
I always loved this.

I still find a link back to when they're sorting sheep and Ennis says to Jack: We gotta stick this one out Jack..

For how long

For as long as we can ride it

Ain't no reins on this one.


When they were sorting all the mixed up sheep after slacking off out there falling in love, metaphorically there were no reins. I think, despite how (un)aware Ennis was of his sexuality or attraction towards Jack, he could have been saying this from the moment they shook hands or sooner. Out on a limb, I also like to consider that Jack, from the moment he met Ennis, understood a possible true love was in this other man, and it would be a journey ahead towards the connection he'd make with Ennis. The verbalization and the signs of this force of nature were just trickling down a little Old Rose stream into an oasis of their love. And anytime spent outside of bathing each other here, was the time to dry and crumble and fall apart; in final confrontation, when Jack 'broke the rules' and wanted to bathe outside of that sparce oasis, Ennis indeed crumbled and fell to the ground and held by Jack, he had to confront the love between them. He had to, for the first time, mesh his fear and his love together and know that one does beat the other; fear is only the absense of love.
Later when this sinks through his stoic shell, he pursues jack via postcards, etc. But of course we know where that went. He with the shirts falls apart inside. Now he understands that what he feels naturally inside is as painful, heartbreakingly beautiful, real and more imporant than the paperbag he had carried along the way to an odd-job up on a mountain. What you feel is who you are and who you are is beautiful. I get that sentiment from him when he's in the trailer, adjacent Alma Jr., looking out the window quietly talking to himself, this self that processes the lost love before it does the immediate and practical.
Oh yes he has changed immensely.
Up on Brokeback, SNIT, I believe any thing ("roles" if we must) was open, very open. When you're bathing your lover, you want to clean them all the f*** over.)

amazing post justin :), i loved some of your metaphors like the oasis and abthing that was such a great post :)

I find it a most wonderful irony that it is a manifestation of a passive, hidden love (i.e., the shirts in jack's closet) that finally gets to Ennis.  Passivity can be powerful, especially when it is like grass bending before the strong wind.


Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #136 on: Apr 28, 2008, 08:20 AM »
Ennis, as it was stated earlier was pretty complicated guy.  Trying to live his life, appearing conventional, loving Jack on the "down low", and thinking this all he could expect.  No matter Ennis's "low startle" point, not one time did he ever stop answering Jack's call to him.  Alma or Cassie couldn't quiet the need he had that was only Jack's.  Ennis actively defends Jack against Alma, the truth known he never stops seeing Jack.   He sacrificed that one good paying job, so he could at any moment be with him, and didn't understand why Jack turns on him.

Ennis handles things his own way indeed.  The "Earl and Rich" world, society,  was what he try to protect both of them from.   But Jack himself,  his commitment, his love, his body, was one thing that Ennis had a fear and great need for, but doubted that Jack had the same need for him.  He could kill Jack if ever found out that Jack would give himself to anyone else, or even think of leaving him.  But what could he do really?  No matter how hard Jack tried, or could have tried, talk to him, pushed him, stood on his head and whistle "Dixie", that wouldn't have been enough.  For Ennis the only way for him to understand that they were OK, was something he had to discover for himself, and understand for himself.

For Ennis it was "Will you leave me too?"  so many in his life left him already.

Just a thought.

I think Ennis perhaps never understood whay Jack loved him so.  Perhaps his passivity is but a manifestation of a strong insecurity: that he could not believe that Jack's love for him was REAL.


Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #137 on: Apr 28, 2008, 10:30 AM »
I think Ennis perhaps never understood whay Jack loved him so.  Perhaps his passivity is but a manifestation of a strong insecurity: that he could not believe that Jack's love for him was REAL.



i think you could be onto something here.

(side note: you know tpe its amazing how much you can say in just a few words. :))

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #138 on: Apr 28, 2008, 01:30 PM »
I find it a most wonderful irony that it is a manifestation of a passive, hidden love (i.e., the shirts in jack's closet) that finally gets to Ennis.  Passivity can be powerful, especially when it is like grass bending before the strong wind.


Beautiful, tpe. The whole thing. ^f^ And this as well:


"Yes, one can be a winner even as one falls in battle.  The fact that Jack's death did bring about a transformation in Ennis made all the difference."


It really does, I think. Otherwise, the story would truly be a tragedy in every way. But instead it can give us hope, and I believe it allows Jack to rest happy, knowing that Ennis finally experienced and understood that.



For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

babytammy7

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #139 on: Apr 28, 2008, 04:20 PM »

It really does, I think. Otherwise, the story would truly be a tragedy in every way. But instead it can give us hope, and I believe it allows Jack to rest happy, knowing that Ennis finally experienced and understood that.

I find it a most wonderful irony that it is a manifestation of a passive, hidden love (i.e., the shirts in jack's closet) that finally gets to Ennis.  Passivity can be powerful, especially when it is like grass bending before the strong wind.


I echo FlwrChild's thanks here, AF.  Very beautiful.  Yes, one can be a winner even as one falls in battle.  The fact that Jack's death did bring about a transformation in Ennis made all the difference.

Thomas and Barb, this is so true and damn beautiful. Thank you.  ^f^

manhattangirl

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #140 on: Apr 28, 2008, 09:41 PM »
I think Ennis perhaps never understood whay Jack loved him so.  Perhaps his passivity is but a manifestation of a strong insecurity: that he could not believe that Jack's love for him was REAL.

Not so much why Jack loved him, but that he was loved at all. Was it OK to have feelings of love? The one word that was never uttered.  Didn't the shirts prove to Ennis that it was?    He was loved.   

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #141 on: Apr 28, 2008, 10:09 PM »



It really does, I think. Otherwise, the story would truly be a tragedy in every way. But instead it can give us hope, and I believe it allows Jack to rest happy, knowing that Ennis finally experienced and understood that.





I love this.  ^f^
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #142 on: Apr 29, 2008, 07:52 AM »
Thanks friends.

It really does, I think. Otherwise, the story would truly be a tragedy in every way. But instead it can give us hope, and I believe it allows Jack to rest happy, knowing that Ennis finally experienced and understood that.

Jack would have been very surprised that for all his attempts at getting Ennis to budge, it is that very thing he keeps hidden that finally gets to Ennis.  Why didn't Jack tell Ennis about the shirts?  My suspicion is that it revealed too much, made Jack feel too vulnerable.  Yes, he would have been happy also to see that this passive manifestation of his love -- secreted for years -- succeeded when his more direct attempts failed.

Not so much why Jack loved him, but that he was loved at all. Was it OK to have feelings of love? The one word that was never uttered.  Didn't the shirts prove to Ennis that it was?    He was loved.   

Yes, I think it is significant that the word is never uttered in direct connection with Jack. 

Perhaps Ennis never thought that his feelings (as well as Jack's) couldn't possibly be true love.  Perhaps he never really understood until the end what deep love was all about?  Or are we wrong in that he perhaps passively assumed it as a matter of fact?


manhattangirl

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #143 on: Apr 30, 2008, 05:32 AM »
[quote author=tpe link=topic=13155.msg751613#msg751613 date=

Perhaps Ennis never thought that his feelings (as well as Jack's) couldn't possibly be true love.  Perhaps he never really understood until the end what deep love was all about?  Or are we wrong in that he perhaps passively assumed it as a matter of fact?

[/quote]

His question to Alma, Jr. shows us that the word love, the feeling of love, was becoming more of reality to him after Jack's death.   I think part of his torture was dealing with that feeling he had for Jack  was love, this is man who had a hard time dealing with his sexual need for him, let alone with the idea that all he feels for Jack was in the end,  love, and he was loved in return. It all was so risky for him, this man who was controlled, guarded, reserve.  This man who loved someone who could make lose all of that control, feared whether he was loved at all. 

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #144 on: Apr 30, 2008, 05:46 AM »
His question to Alma, Jr. shows us that the word love, the feeling of love, was becoming more of reality to him after Jack's death.   I think part of his torture was dealing with that feeling he had for Jack  was love, this is man who had a hard time dealing with his sexual need for him, let alone with the idea that all he feels for Jack was in the end,  love, and he was loved in return. It all was so risky for him, this man who was controlled, guarded, reserve.  This man who loved someone who could make lose all of that control, feared whether he was loved at all. 

I agree with you,MG,in that Ennis problems come from the possibility that what he felt for Jack was love.His denials not only were about sharing his life with another man,but also about the feeling itself for this man.To wish sharing your life with someone you must be sure that you love that person; and that's what Ennis denied to himself all his life,denying his own feelings and wishes,disguising them with the name of "friend"-that in this case gets all its meaning in all senses-.These denials became fear and this fear ruled all his actions,feelings and thoughts: fear of loving and being loved,fear of the commitment,fear of society,fear of himself,and above all,one of his contradictions,fear of LOOSING but also fear of HAVING this man,the root of all his problems at the end...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline FlwrChild

  • Jack + Ennis
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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #145 on: Apr 30, 2008, 08:01 AM »
I completely agree with you guys on that. And I do believe that it was the shock of Jack's death that allowed him to see what he'd lost. It was enough to give him the strength to call Lureen, and then to go to Lightning Flat, which took so much courage on his part considering the man he was and the things he'd struggled with for so long.

Then finding the shirts showed him how much Jack loved him, had always loved him, and that what they had was indeed love, no matter what he'd been telling himself all those years.

The Ennis who walks into that kitchen with those shirts, fully intent on taking them with him, and the Ennis who says "Jack, I swear" is not the same Ennis who'd been fighting his own demons, along with society's, all that time. This Ennis knew and acknowledged that what he felt for Jack was love, and had the gift of knowing that Jack loved him, to help temper the loss and the regrets for what might have been.


I've been so moved by your posts. Thank you for sharing. ^f^
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #146 on: Apr 30, 2008, 08:48 AM »
I sometimes think that in the end, love also became something very unreal with Ennis -- the stuff of dreams, I guess.  In this case, the sexual dreams with Jack had become a substitute for the reality.  It is as if dreams became a sort of reality for him.  Would you agree?


Offline FlwrChild

  • Jack + Ennis
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Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #147 on: Apr 30, 2008, 09:33 AM »
Oh absolutely tpe.


From the short story:

"....He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream............lets a panel of the dream slide forward. If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong."

For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline myprivatejack

  • Jack + Ennis
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  • It could be like this,just like this...always
Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #148 on: Apr 30, 2008, 11:34 AM »
I sometimes think that in the end, love also became something very unreal with Ennis -- the stuff of dreams, I guess.  In this case, the sexual dreams with Jack had become a substitute for the reality.  It is as if dreams became a sort of reality for him.  Would you agree?

I completely agree,Thomas: when you have nothing in real life,you're used to live of dreams for the present and future and of memories for the past.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

babytammy7

  • Guest
Re: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes
« Reply #149 on: Apr 30, 2008, 04:46 PM »
I completely agree with you guys on that. And I do believe that it was the shock of Jack's death that allowed him to see what he'd lost. It was enough to give him the strength to call Lureen, and then to go to Lightning Flat, which took so much courage on his part considering the man he was and the things he'd struggled with for so long.

Then finding the shirts showed him how much Jack loved him, had always loved him, and that what they had was indeed love, no matter what he'd been telling himself all those years.

The Ennis who walks into that kitchen with those shirts, fully intent on taking them with him, and the Ennis who says "Jack, I swear" is not the same Ennis who'd been fighting his own demons, along with society's, all that time. This Ennis knew and acknowledged that what he felt for Jack was love, and had the gift of knowing that Jack loved him, to help temper the loss and the regrets for what might have been.


I've been so moved by your posts. Thank you for sharing. ^f^

Beautiful and touching. I feel like crying.

I sometimes think that in the end, love also became something very unreal with Ennis -- the stuff of dreams, I guess.  In this case, the sexual dreams with Jack had become a substitute for the reality.  It is as if dreams became a sort of reality for him.  Would you agree?


That's right about Ennis, Thomas. And OT, I especially relate to those words.