Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

[lancecowboy]

[...]

You are of course familiar with the central tenet of Shaun in "Shelter" -- if you don't take, how will you ever get what you desire?
 

Hmm...I guess it's not off topic since this thread is about friendship, sex and love, which is exactly what I love about Shelter. However, with respect to those who have not yet seen the movie, I won't jump into the story and give everything away.

I agree with you that the central tenet is a powerful one, and it is one that I love about the movie. However, I think we need to keep in mind the context of this tenet. It is about taking what has already been given...i.e. the love between Shaun and Zach, the love between Ennis and Jack. Yes, both Zach and Ennis should reach out and take the love that has been offered to them. No, neither Zach nor Ennis should go to Mexico or where ever to find substitutes when they are love-sick for Shaun or Jack.

*** SPOILERS TO SHELTER FOLLOW ***

I love the scene in the diner...and I will only say this once...when Zach was asked if "he was seeing other guys" or "do you think he is hot" that he got visibly angry and annoyed. To him, the man loyal to family to the core, such talk is simply not acceptable. I believe it is the same with Ennis. By the way, notice how clever I left out the name of the person doing the talking.  One of my favorite characters, like Jack's Ma.

Yes, when love founds us, it is right and proper, to reach out, and take the hand...like Zach did at the end...ooops, I said too much. 

[tpe]

Hmm...I guess it's not off topic since this thread is about friendship, sex and love, which is exactly what I love about Shelter. However, with respect to those who have not yet seen the movie, I won't jump into the story and give everything away.

I agree with you that the central tenet is a powerful one, and it is one that I love about the movie. However, I think we need to keep in mind the context of this tenet. It is about taking what has already been given...i.e. the love between Shaun and Zach, the love between Ennis and Jack. Yes, both Zach and Ennis should reach out and take the love that has been offered to them. No, neither Zach nor Ennis should go to Mexico or where ever to find substitutes when they are love-sick for Shaun or Jack.

*** SPOILERS TO SHELTER FOLLOW ***

I love the scene in the diner...and I will only say this once...when Zach was asked if "he was seeing other guys" or "do you think he is hot" that he got visibly angry and annoyed. To him, the man loyal to family to the core, such talk is simply not acceptable. I believe it is the same with Ennis. By the way, notice how clever I left out the name of the person doing the talking.  One of my favorite characters, like Jack's Ma.

Yes, when love founds us, it is right and proper, to reach out, and take the hand...like Zach did at the end...ooops, I said too much. 

*** SPOILERS TO SHELTER FOLLOW ***

   Sorry lance, I didn't mean to derail the current discussion, but I agree with you that there are fruitful comaprisons and contrasts/differences between the 2 love relationships.  And of course, the times and the worlds in which they occur are so so different.  Zach was blessed with an eventually supportive group of friends and even his sister understood in the end.  We can't say the same for Ennis, and to take in his context was much much more difficult and problematic than in the case of Zach.

It goes to show that love, friendship, and sex rely heavily on the context in which they flower or wither.  Things could have been different for Ennis, had he lived in a different time or place.

[Tony]

     Am glad Shelter entered into the discussion, because any film or story, paralleling BBM, and used to compare and contrast what's up between Ennis and Jack seems relevant.  We bring in all kinds of stories as examples, so, that isn't new.  I haven't seen that film but Andrew and Thomas haven't used it without explaining where it fits in, and so, have managed to see their points.
   It might seem the over-all topic we are on, friendship leading to sex, and then to love, is just too simple to bother with.  But I still think there can be imbalances that help explain Ennis and Jack and so it's worth a go.  I'd almost drift, at times, into Ennis, above all else, even the sex, wanting a sacred friendship love, but that romantic love kept defining itself as there and challenging him.  Jack, it could be, ranked the friendship least, and went straight for a haunting romantic love, which needed constant reassurance from sex.  Imbalances, with Ennis not keeping up, nor understanding which was which.
   

[tpe]

     Am glad Shelter entered into the discussion, because any film or story, paralleling BBM, and used to compare and contrast what's up between Ennis and Jack seems relevant.  We bring in all kinds of stories as examples, so, that isn't new.  I haven't seen that film but Andrew and Thomas haven't used it without explaining where it fits in, and so, have managed to see their points.
   It might seem the over-all topic we are on, friendship leading to sex, and then to love, is just too simple to bother with.  But I still think there can be imbalances that help explain Ennis and Jack and so it's worth a go.  I'd almost drift, at times, into Ennis, above all else, even the sex, wanting a sacred friendship love, but that romantic love kept defining itself as there and challenging him.  Jack, it could be, ranked the friendship least, and went straight for a haunting romantic love, which needed constant reassurance from sex.  Imbalances, with Ennis not keeping up, nor understanding which was which.
   

Interesting that you mention this, because I was watching a landmark presentation on Public Television on the history of the gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender communities in Chicago, and they talk about how Romantic friendships -- not supposedly sexual -- were much more common in the 19th century than in the 20th, and that they closely paralleled intense life-long, committed friendships, similar to the so-called "Boston Marriages" between people of the same sex. 

I wonder whether Jack's may be categorized in terms of a romantic friendship in the beginning, in contrast to romantic love (which came later).  The difference lies in the 19th century distinction that romantic love could have been sexual, whereas romantic friendships -- while very sensual and physical in expression -- remained largely platonic.

So I would propose Jack developing from such a romantic friendship to romantic love, which actually has a sexual element in it, although idealized.

[Tony]

    Dear Thomas - that was really pertinent information, there, based on historical models in the past.  I hope I've got it right:
               romantic friendships - sensual, but rarely sexual
               romantic loves - usually leading to sex

     This, of course, makes "Friendship, sex, and love..." as a topic, somewhat more complex, but if it's there, and IMO, it IS there, what you did was to add a critical dimension.
     I would add, I really don't think this was just the 19th century.  I have a very strong belief that men and women "bonded" with someone of the same gender, all the way back through the history of humanity, that it was non-sexual, and that, essentially, homophobia, where it may have always been around, has accelerated in modern times, terrorizing people and stealing from them any chance of fulfillment from friendship loves, whether romantic or not.
   David and Jonathon, Henry 1V (?) and Thomas a Becket, Henry VIII and Thomas More, Mary Stuart and Arabella Stuart, Queen Anne and the Duchess of Marlboro are examples of the famous, but how many farmers and soldiers formed solid loves, which now would come under fire from homophobes as being gay, or from gays as needing to be "outted"?  SOMETHING was there that was permitted and not condemned and which has been STOLEN from Western culture in modern times.
  Well, you've mentioned Jack as moving from romantic friendship to romantic love, and I've used the term "sacred friendship" for Ennis' initial feelings.
I am thinking, they mean the same thing.  And I do believe you are right, Jack went from one stage to the next fairly quickly.  This undermines the hopes of those who want to see massive sexual attraction, repressed, outside Aguirre's trailer.  But it does not undermine the general theory that both were awakening to same-gender leanings, so I hope no one gets miffed there.
   Gosh, I wish I had seen that program.

[babytammy7]

So I would propose Jack developing from such a romantic friendship to romantic love, which actually has a sexual element in it, although idealized.

Totally agree about this, Thomas. I've always thought that in some way Jack idealized the BBM's Ennis and their summer up in there. Maybe he thought that living with Ennis could be like what they did in BBM. And I think because that idealization of BBM's Ennis, his most precious memory ever was the DE, and maybe that's why he wanted his ashes scattered up there too...because for him staying in BBM was the best time in his life ever, and I'm not saying that it was not, but maybe he had very sweet moments after that too, just like the reunion kiss...But I think he idealized BBM, and the altar to venerate that idealized love was his closet, where those shirts reminded him of that "perfect" time in the mountain when he was young and free, and where their love was "perfect" too. Yeah, I think that maybe he saw the love and the time they shared in BBM as a perfect, or at least as the happiest one. And I know that Jack always loved Ennis with all his heart (I'm a Jack girl, don't forget it), but I think too that he spent 20 years looking for something like he had up in BBM. Those shirts, his desire to have his ashes there, his very precious memory and the fact that he said to Lureen that his favorite place was BBM, make me thing that maybe he idealized that place, that love and that Ennis...and he never gave up his fight to get all those wonderful things back. I think that maybe it's why they never returned to BBM (like the SS and the screenplay say), because it was like a sacred place, a sacred memory that they both never wanted to stain. And that's why he said that they only thing they had now was BBM. They didn't return there ever, so why did he say that BBM was everything what they got? I think that he said that like saying that the only thing they had for real was their memory of BBM and the now gone time they spent there. Maybe Jack spent 20 years with Ennis living thanks to those memories of BBM, hoping that one day he could live that again, the full love, the freedom...He said that everything was built on that, in BBM, and I agree...It was like saying that their love was built in just an idealized time and love that they couldn't forget. I mean, how many millions of people think that their first love was the best one, the only true? And how many people say that some summer or a certain time spent somewhere was the most special precious ever? And we all know that all that people are in some way idealizing that time or that love. We always idealize our beloved ones, especially when we are apart, and old people use to talk about their young loves like they were totally perfect...And I can see that in Jack. That older bitter Jack maybe thought that the BBM's Ennis and that time in BBM were almost perfect, and he, with the time passing by, idealized that memory as we all do with our loved old memories. My heart breaks when I see that old Jack...serious, tired, hardly speaking, with a broken look in his face...so different from that smiling sweet funny Jack so full of life...Jack lived dreaming, dreaming a very idealized dream, and when the reality hit him it was so much for him to bear.

Now, I think that what I said has nothing to do with what you wrote, friend!!   Sorry, I just saw the word "idealized" and I got carry away.   Really sorry about this. If you think that this post is shit just move it to another thread where it has something to do with the topic, or just erase it!! Thank you!!  

[Tony]

I think that maybe it's why they never returned to BBM (like the SS and the screenplay say), because it was like a sacred place, a sacred memory that they both never wanted to stain.

    Why move it when you can quote it?  The sacred place, the sacred memory, .... each was of romantic love that was, in the squalid world below, always under threat, always difficult to restore to the same level, as that up on the mountain.  Thanks, Tammy, and please don't apologize for being....right.

[tpe]

    Dear Thomas - that was really pertinent information, there, based on historical models in the past.  I hope I've got it right:
               romantic friendships - sensual, but rarely sexual
               romantic loves - usually leading to sex

     This, of course, makes "Friendship, sex, and love..." as a topic, somewhat more complex, but if it's there, and IMO, it IS there, what you did was to add a critical dimension.
     I would add, I really don't think this was just the 19th century.  I have a very strong belief that men and women "bonded" with someone of the same gender, all the way back through the history of humanity, that it was non-sexual, and that, essentially, homophobia, where it may have always been around, has accelerated in modern times, terrorizing people and stealing from them any chance of fulfillment from friendship loves, whether romantic or not.
   David and Jonathon, Henry 1V (?) and Thomas a Becket, Henry VIII and Thomas More, Mary Stuart and Arabella Stuart, Queen Anne and the Duchess of Marlboro are examples of the famous, but how many farmers and soldiers formed solid loves, which now would come under fire from homophobes as being gay, or from gays as needing to be "outted"?  SOMETHING was there that was permitted and not condemned and which has been STOLEN from Western culture in modern times.
  Well, you've mentioned Jack as moving from romantic friendship to romantic love, and I've used the term "sacred friendship" for Ennis' initial feelings.
I am thinking, they mean the same thing.  And I do believe you are right, Jack went from one stage to the next fairly quickly.  This undermines the hopes of those who want to see massive sexual attraction, repressed, outside Aguirre's trailer.  But it does not undermine the general theory that both were awakening to same-gender leanings, so I hope no one gets miffed there.
   Gosh, I wish I had seen that program.

I do think the term "sacred friendships" means the same thing, Tony.  And yes, I do agree that it is not just the 19th century.  I think what clouds the distinction today is the inability of people nowadays to believe that such friendships could exist.    For some reason, today's more "accepting" environment has made people feel either suspicious of people's intentions, or assume that anything goes nowadays.  In the latter case, people have lost the subtlety of distinctions, I guess.  But I think these less subtle attitudes can be extrapolated into much of 20th century USA (in contrast to certain places in Europe at the time), and Jack's and Ennis world can be subjected to such an extrapolation.

[tpe]

Totally agree about this, Thomas. I've always thought that in some way Jack idealized the BBM's Ennis and their summer up in there. Maybe he thought that living with Ennis could be like what they did in BBM. And I think because that idealization of BBM's Ennis, his most precious memory ever was the DE, and maybe that's why he wanted his ashes scattered up there too...because for him staying in BBM was the best time in his life ever, and I'm not saying that it was not, but maybe he had very sweet moments after that too, just like the reunion kiss...But I think he idealized BBM, and the altar to venerate that idealized love was his closet, where those shirts reminded him of that "perfect" time in the mountain when he was young and free, and where their love was "perfect" too. Yeah, I think that maybe he saw the love and the time they shared in BBM as a perfect, or at least as the happiest one. And I know that Jack always loved Ennis with all his heart (I'm a Jack girl, don't forget it), but I think too that he spent 20 years looking for something like he had up in BBM. Those shirts, his desire to have his ashes there, his very precious memory and the fact that he said to Lureen that his favorite place was BBM, make me thing that maybe he idealized that place, that love and that Ennis...and he never gave up his fight to get all those wonderful things back. I think that maybe it's why they never returned to BBM (like the SS and the screenplay say), because it was like a sacred place, a sacred memory that they both never wanted to stain. And that's why he said that they only thing they had now was BBM. They didn't return there ever, so why did he say that BBM was everything what they got? I think that he said that like saying that the only thing they had for real was their memory of BBM and the now gone time they spent there. Maybe Jack spent 20 years with Ennis living thanks to those memories of BBM, hoping that one day he could live that again, the full love, the freedom...He said that everything was built on that, in BBM, and I agree...It was like saying that their love was built in just an idealized time and love that they couldn't forget. I mean, how many millions of people think that their first love was the best one, the only true? And how many people say that some summer or a certain time spent somewhere was the most special precious ever? And we all know that all that people are in some way idealizing that time or that love. We always idealize our beloved ones, especially when we are apart, and old people use to talk about their young loves like they were totally perfect...And I can see that in Jack. That older bitter Jack maybe thought that the BBM's Ennis and that time in BBM were almost perfect, and he, with the time passing by, idealized that memory as we all do with our loved old memories. My heart breaks when I see that old Jack...serious, tired, hardly speaking, with a broken look in his face...so different from that smiling sweet funny Jack so full of life...Jack lived dreaming, dreaming a very idealized dream, and when the reality hit him is was so much for him to bear.

Now, I think that what I said has nothing to do with what you wrote, friend!!   Sorry, I just saw the word "idealized" and I got carry away.   Really sorry about this. If you think that this post is shit just move it to another thread where it has something to do with the topic, or just erase it!! Thank you!!  

Far from it, I think it is an excelent point, Tammy.  I do feel that Jack idealized the whole thing, and in a way, that kept him going over the years, in spite of the more disappointing reality.  But most of all, I do think that the shirts in the closet do embody that idealization, and I suggest that Ennis understood the power of this vision (enough to evoke all of what remained of BBM) when he discovered them after Jack's death.

Idealizations have such power -- to push back the bonds of reality even for one moment and see things for what they could be or what they could have been.

[lancecowboy]

Totally agree about this, Thomas. I've always thought that in some way Jack idealized the BBM's Ennis and their summer up in there. Maybe he thought that living with Ennis could be like what they did in BBM. And I think because that idealization of BBM's Ennis, his most precious memory ever was the DE, and maybe that's why he wanted his ashes scattered up there too...because for him staying in BBM was the best time in his life ever, and I'm not saying that it was not, but maybe he had very sweet moments after that too, just like the reunion kiss...But I think he idealized BBM, and the altar to venerate that idealized love was his closet, where those shirts reminded him of that "perfect" time in the mountain when he was young and free, and where their love was "perfect" too. Yeah, I think that maybe he saw the love and the time they shared in BBM as a perfect, or at least as the happiest one. And I know that Jack always loved Ennis with all his heart (I'm a Jack girl, don't forget it), but I think too that he spent 20 years looking for something like he had up in BBM. Those shirts, his desire to have his ashes there, his very precious memory and the fact that he said to Lureen that his favorite place was BBM, make me thing that maybe he idealized that place, that love and that Ennis...and he never gave up his fight to get all those wonderful things back. I think that maybe it's why they never returned to BBM (like the SS and the screenplay say), because it was like a sacred place, a sacred memory that they both never wanted to stain. And that's why he said that they only thing they had now was BBM. They didn't return there ever, so why did he say that BBM was everything what they got? I think that he said that like saying that the only thing they had for real was their memory of BBM and the now gone time they spent there. Maybe Jack spent 20 years with Ennis living thanks to those memories of BBM, hoping that one day he could live that again, the full love, the freedom...He said that everything was built on that, in BBM, and I agree...It was like saying that their love was built in just an idealized time and love that they couldn't forget. I mean, how many millions of people think that their first love was the best one, the only true? And how many people say that some summer or a certain time spent somewhere was the most special precious ever? And we all know that all that people are in some way idealizing that time or that love. We always idealize our beloved ones, especially when we are apart, and old people use to talk about their young loves like they were totally perfect...And I can see that in Jack. That older bitter Jack maybe thought that the BBM's Ennis and that time in BBM were almost perfect, and he, with the time passing by, idealized that memory as we all do with our loved old memories. My heart breaks when I see that old Jack...serious, tired, hardly speaking, with a broken look in his face...so different from that smiling sweet funny Jack so full of life...Jack lived dreaming, dreaming a very idealized dream, and when the reality hit him is was so much for him to bear.

Now, I think that what I said has nothing to do with what you wrote, friend!!  Sorry, I just saw the word "idealized" and I got carry away.  Really sorry about this. If you think that this post is shit just move it to another thread where it has something to do with the topic, or just erase it!! Thank you!! 

Tammy, amiga! I am so glad to see you posting in this thread, with you usual Shelter prolific length! I don't see us getting over 100 pages in a month, not without some serious gorgeous pictures, but your post is definitely amazing. I love everything you said, and it ties together what Thomas and Tony have been saying with the idealization that you remind us...Annie Proulx purposely made Brokeback Mountain a place they never went back to visit, as you said, so they would not disturb the memory of that summer of '63. It was sacred memory that cannot be duplicated. The idea that the two shirts represented that idealization is an powerful one. In a sense, the romantic idealization that Jack dreamed for their cow and calf operation was transferred to Ennis when he held those two shirts, when he relived the dozy embrace, embracing those two shirts....

The idealization of first love...of those special moments...of those special places...in a way, I see Annie Proulx using the distance to Brokeback Mountain to represent the barrier that we all have, in time. We can never relive the special first love, the first kiss (I love the comment by Trevor thanking Jonah for arranging the shoot sequence so they shot the kissing scenes like it was in the film, so their first kiss was a real first kiss between them). We idealize moments in our lives because we must...to relive those special moments...over and over. That's what Ennis did while brooding over his beer after beer sitting in the bar alone, when Cassie came on to him. That's what Ennis did while eating his apple pie alone, when Cassie came over to tell him girls don't fall in love for fun. It finally occurred to him that all the thinking over and over, the wrunging out hundreds of time...is no longer just lust having fun, it was love. In a way, it is the same that happened when Zach and Shaun broke up...Zach thinking over and over the passionate night...the first kiss...Instead of memories of Brokeback Mountain, he had memories of his firsts....  Don't we all?

[babytammy7]

Aww, Thomas, Tony, Andrew!! Thank you so much for not thinking I'm a cow in front of a computer, saying nonsenses!! 

I agree with all of you.

I've been reading this thread since Tony wrote that first post..and I wanted to write a post a lot of times, but you all say wonderful deep poetic things and, most of times, I just don't know how to say what I'm thinking..so I remain in silence. But I love everything you write here, Tony, Thomas, Andrew, WW, AF, MG!!!  Keep writing please!!

[welshwitch]

"Wither is fled he visonary gleam?
Where is it now, the glory and the dream?"

Isn't that what they glimpsed up on the mountain, and never recaptured?

[tpe]

Aww, Thomas, Tony, Andrew!! Thank you so much for not thinking I'm a cow in front of a computer, saying nonsenses!! 

I agree with all of you.

I've been reading this thread since Tony wrote that first post..and I wanted to write a post a lot of times, but you all say wonderful deep poetic things and, most of times, I just don't know how to say what I'm thinking..so I remain in silence. But I love everything you write here, Tony, Thomas, Andrew, WW, AF, MG!!!  Keep writing please!!

Don't hesitate to write what you think here, Tammy.  We are all open to the discussion, and there are no hard truths in this one. 

[tpe]

"Wither is fled he visonary gleam?
Where is it now, the glory and the dream?"

Isn't that what they glimpsed up on the mountain, and never recaptured?

When old age shall this generation waste,   
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe   
Than ours...

The vision is gone, but truth and beauty remains.  That is all we know, and need to know.

[manhattangirl]

"Wither is fled he visonary gleam?
Where is it now, the glory and the dream?"

Isn't that what they glimpsed up on the mountain, and never recaptured?

And maybe that's the beginning and the ending.   In ss they never went back to Brokeback, they never talk about the sex, they never utter the word "love", why?     It was all emotional and physical, but nothing intellectual, they never discussed it.    It's like they were in "season", an emotional and physical need that continued for all those years, (sorry for being so crude).  How can a relationship grow when lovers are just living off of one moment in time.   

JMO.

[tpe]

And maybe that's the beginning and the ending.   In ss they never went back to Brokeback, they never talk about the sex, they never utter the word "love", why?     It was all emotional and physical, but nothing intellectual, they never discussed it.    It's like they were in "season", an emotional and physical need that continued for all those years, (sorry for being so crude).  How can a relationship grow when lovers are just living off of one moment in time.   

One moment in time can be an eternity.  Sorry if this sounds like a cliche, but it's true.  Sometimes, the rest of our lives are driven by one fleeting vision.  And even if the vision fades away, the beauty of the vision remians (to quote Cavafy) like perfume
that goes on clinging to my flesh.

[manhattangirl]

One moment in time can be an eternity.  Sorry if this sounds like a cliche, but it's true.  Sometimes, the rest of our lives are driven by one fleeting vision.  And even if the vision fades away, the beauty of the vision remians (to quote Cavafy) like perfume
that goes on clinging to my flesh.[/i]

Like Ennis trying to catch the scent of Jack on the shirt, but only left with the memory of him.

[manhattangirl]

After that summer was over,  didn't it seem like both were frozen in that moment, and didn't know how to make the next step in a relationship.   There were no stages, at the age of 25, 35, 40, they were still living that summer over and over again.  They both lived in '63, and stayed in '63.    I can understand the enormous pain each went through at the final confrontation, it took twenty years to even acknowledge that there were something deep between them.   

Just a thought.

[Tony]

How can a relationship grow when lovers are just living off of one moment in time.   

    Yeah, there's something to that, MG, that the relationship didn't seem to grow, and that was Jack's complaint: All we got is Brokeback Mountain. 
        So, in that sense, there was the problem ---it didn't go anywhere.  Offsetting that, however, were the 20 years, which is nothing to overlook.  That they kept coming back to each other, regularly, by a profound commitment, has to mean something.  And it did, to them.  But there was, as you say, no growth towards that full and complete relationship that would have made for a happy ending.  As to why it didn't grow to completion, well, that's what we're still looking over, year after year, as will be those who follow us.

[manhattangirl]

    Yeah, there's something to that, MG, that the relationship didn't seem to grow, and that was Jack's complaint: All we got is Brokeback Mountain. 
        So, in that sense, there was the problem ---it didn't go anywhere.  Offsetting that, however, were the 20 years, which is nothing to overlook.  That they kept coming back to each other, regularly, by a profound commitment, has to mean something.  And it did, to them.  But there was, as you say, no growth towards that full and complete relationship that would have made for a happy ending.  As to why it didn't grow to completion, well, that's what we're still looking over, year after year, as will be those who follow us.

Tony, I'm thinking of the mindset of both men.  Ennis holding on to this stubborn insistance on being so closeted right up till midlife with choices in life limiting to him now.   Jack, insisting on a life that he sees not as something for the future, but needs to happened now.  The clock was ticking, it's not '63 anymore but '83. 

[Tony]

        Dear Manhattangirl, - yes, I do see how frustrated you and so many others are (and Jack was) about Ennis' mindset.  Aintfoolin tended to agree, somewhat, on something I had posted on another thread, so I'll go on and do it again.
        We Brokies divide up as to whether Ennis would ever change, and I am of the belief that he was so broken in spirit, which showed in the diner, that he was headed for change.
       I've used the example of earthquakes.  The tectonic plates we are all on, the land itself, is under pressure which builds up slowly and then is released suddenly in an earthquake, with the land mass moving forward, and then becoming stable again.  That's Ennis, to me.  Stubborn as a mule, but those forces were building up and he would....change.  He had before.  To same gender sex in FNIT.  To tenderness and loving in SNIT.  And to the only arrangement he felt he could sustain, after the reunion - regular meeting up.....forever.  Jack's bitterness, never seen by him before, was working on his mind, and, in the diner, he was fading away from the dilemma.
    But MG, as the next meet-up approached, I feel he knew he couldn't go without offering Jack.....something.  He never got the chance.  So there's the difference, maybe.... some see an Ennis eternally paralyzed, and I see an Ennis that could not live without Jack, and so would have to make some changes.
       "I wish I could quit you..."
       "Well, why don't you...?  It's because of you I'm this way...."
Ennis never once said he would quit Jack, in that confrontation.  Which means, just like that lonesome trip to the tent before SNIT, Ennis, once again.... would have to make a move.

[manhattangirl]

        Dear Manhattangirl, - yes, I do see how frustrated you and so many others are (and Jack was) about Ennis' mindset.  Aintfoolin tended to agree, somewhat, on something I had posted on another thread, so I'll go on and do it again.
        We Brokies divide up as to whether Ennis would ever change, and I am of the belief that he was so broken in spirit, which showed in the diner, that he was headed for change.
       I've used the example of earthquakes.  The tectonic plates we are all on, the land itself, is under pressure which builds up slowly and then is released suddenly in an earthquake, with the land mass moving forward, and then becoming stable again.  That's Ennis, to me.  Stubborn as a mule, but those forces were building up and he would....change.  He had before.  To same gender sex in FNIT.  To tenderness and loving in SNIT.  And to the only arrangement he felt he could sustain, after the reunion - regular meeting up.....forever.  Jack's bitterness, never seen by him before, was working on his mind, and, in the diner, he was fading away from the dilemma.    But MG, as the next meet-up approached, I feel he knew he couldn't go without offering Jack.....something.  He never got the chance.  So there's the difference, maybe.... some see an Ennis eternally paralyzed, and I see an Ennis that could not live without Jack, and so would have to make some changes.
       "I wish I could quit you..."
       "Well, why don't you...?  It's because of you I'm this way...."Ennis never once said he would quit Jack, in that confrontation.  Which means, just like that lonesome trip to the tent before SNIT, Ennis, once again.... would have to make a move.

What you said is so true.   There were many seismic shifts Ennis went through.  The one so telling for me was his acknowledgement to Alma of his relationship with Jack.  Not one time did  he deny Jack.    But after the final confrontation he knew he could lose him.   And again you're right on that point, losing Jack was not an option, but conceding something to Jack was.     
 

 

[jackster]

Wonderful posts here everywhere by everyone.

    Yeah, there's something to that, MG, that the relationship didn't seem to grow, and that was Jack's complaint: All we got is Brokeback Mountain. 
        So, in that sense, there was the problem ---it didn't go anywhere. . . .

Absolutely, it didn't go anywhere . . . .  Where could it go?

There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours. They believed themselves invisible . . . .

Aren't we (and the boys) presented with what amounts to a perfect reality? A perfect solitary world with no outside intrusions, undesirable elements. Part of the conundrum the boys faced is when you've seen (or lived) perfection - where DO you go? How do you go? No wonder they never went back, the vision is destroyed by returning. The best you can do is faithfully maintain a sacred relic (the shirts) as Jack did.

What we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that . . .

Like the vision of the Garden of Eden, a vision of perfection on earth.

[Tony]

     Dear Jackster - your underlying theme of the mountain being a Garden of Eden, which is lost against the realities of the world below, always holds up and crosses paths with many topics.  But I got a little twitchy when I read that Ang Lee said something similar (hmmm....no, identical) last year, long after you had introduced this theme.  So, I go: "Is Ang Lee, er.....logging in and reading.....Jackster?", or is it just you had a line on his thinking from a good reading of Annie and a good take on the movie?  Dammit, Jackster, none of them ever seem to quote the rest of us.
  Even so, it is true.  Where were they to go?  From the enchantment, the idyll of the mountain, to the harsh reality of the Real World.  And Jack wants, not to go back to the mountain, but to.....the Promised Land, and they ended up wandering in the wilderness for 20 years, harrassed, as were the Israelites, by the spiteful tribes of Amelikites, always blocking their way (and to this day, a code-word in Jewish thinking for mindless obstruction of the right to happiness, once given, ever promised).
  "I told you, Jack....it ain't gonna be like that....".  Ennis knew the Amelikites well.  Jack believed in the promise, inherent in their golden summer.
All we are left with, ourselves, is wondering, as I have with Manhattangirl, if they were very near to the Promised Land, before Jack's death left nothing but a metaphysical arrival, and triumph, rather than a ranch together (complete with Aintfoolin's shotgun and Rottweilers).  And we're still here, not knowing.

[aintfoolin]

Wonderful posts here everywhere by everyone.

Absolutely, it didn't go anywhere . . . .  Where could it go?

There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours. They believed themselves invisible . . . .

Aren't we (and the boys) presented with what amounts to a perfect reality? A perfect solitary world with no outside intrusions, undesirable elements. Part of the conundrum the boys faced is when you've seen (or lived) perfection - where DO you go? How do you go? No wonder they never went back, the vision is destroyed by returning. The best you can do is faithfully maintain a sacred relic (the shirts) as Jack did.

What we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that . . .

Like the vision of the Garden of Eden, a vision of perfection on earth.

 Certainly they happened upon the perfect setting, indeed, a "garden of eden". Like Jack says, "Everything is built on that", that  experience on that  isolated, majestic place, Brokeback Mt., their dreams, their love and all that came with it. good and bad,   Just two cowboys with both their heads literally in the clouds, looking down upon ordinary life , they were living an extraordinary exisitence up there, the friendship, the excellent compatability in the bedroll, and a perfect love, all come out of this perfect setting called Brokeback Mt...

  I think Jack thought mostly in terms of a continuence of his experience and continued to do so throughout the relationship , a hope to build on what began up there culminating into a sweet life with Ennis., while Ennis saw  the experience as a "one shot" experience come to an end. His was a broken road filled with doubt, fear and confusion, therefore he needed distance. Feared what he could not understand or completly accept about himself and his relationship with Jack. He was indeed "stuck", in the  bliss of Brokeback Mt. 1963.

 But for practically 3/4 of a summer, they lived as close to perfection as it comes.  They were alone , one on one up there just being Jack and Ennis , accepting each other as is. Imo , they were each other's best friend AND each other's worst enemy in the way they figured this thing. Like oil and water, they were shaken  to blend together by a force of nature while on Brokeback, within that mix, friendship, sex and  then love sustained them, then seperated again after they return to the real  stagnant world.
  Personality did'nt change much, Ennis still stubborn and reserved, Jack still open and full of hope. Outside of that, it was  the love  and friendship that manifested itself into their seperate lives and kept them  coming back together for 20 years. Yes, the Mt. was perfection, but they were not as human beings, yet love found them within their own space and place.  My take.

[Tony]

  They were alone , one on one up there just being Jack and Ennis , accepting each other as is.  

     That was, apparently, part of the paradise, being alone.  And in coming down from the mountain, they re-entered the Real World, hostile to their Eden.  But am wondering if two lovers ever really can reject the outside world, long-term.  I wonder if any love between 2 people can be so complete as to enable complete satisfaction without interaction with the rest of humanity.
   There was oppression down from the mountain, but wouldn't they have been stolen from if they had never had the others that developed, in their lives?
Ennis never seeing the love of 2 daughters.   Jack never seeing his parents again, and never having at least the chance for Lureen to work out, somehow?
   Maybe Eden is a bad place, if you stay there too long.  For all the hurts and losses, and the corruption of the Real World, maybe no 2 lovers can completely escape the human race, as maybe we need more than just that one, true love, we need a better world for that love to settle into, mixing with so many others in good will.  And, of course, that wasn't there.
  The Eden on the mountain would have grown stale, with just the 2 of them alone.  They needed a better world to return to.  Funny thing about that.  Their story, BBM, is a move in that direction, playing its part in altering what is outside of Eden.

[manhattangirl]

Before anything else, they had to settle the struggle between themselves.   Their fear of society, (more Ennis's fear) was played out between the both of them.   Didn't the dream of BBM, turned out to be a road block, than a beacon of hope.  There were no natural progression in the relationship, from the excitement of a new relationship that turns to the hardwork of keeping the relationship.  Everytime they met they pick up where they left off, the "'63 state of mind", as the year past them by. 

Personal note:  I've been in a relationship now for 8 years, we think of  with fondness of how we met, and think of how it felt, but the ensuing years was understanding each others, tears, arguments, love,  the hard work, and knowing we both want what we have.  Was it like for Jack and Ennis?  It was too much time apart, and when together, they spent a lot of time just catching up. 

It all came out in the final confrontation, "the damn few times we were together in twenty years".  They deeply love each other, but were afraid of that love being rooted, not understanding it already was.   

[tpe]

Like Ennis trying to catch the scent of Jack on the shirt, but only left with the memory of him.

Exactly.  Thanks MG. 

Many times, memories are the only thing we have left.  But some memories die hard.    For Ennis, it was the only thing he had left, but it will be with him till the day he dies, apparently...

[tpe]

How can a relationship grow when lovers are just living off of one moment in time.   

    Yeah, there's something to that, MG, that the relationship didn't seem to grow, and that was Jack's complaint: All we got is Brokeback Mountain. 
        So, in that sense, there was the problem ---it didn't go anywhere.  Offsetting that, however, were the 20 years, which is nothing to overlook.  That they kept coming back to each other, regularly, by a profound commitment, has to mean something.  And it did, to them.  But there was, as you say, no growth towards that full and complete relationship that would have made for a happy ending.  As to why it didn't grow to completion, well, that's what we're still looking over, year after year, as will be those who follow us.

Yes, there is something in what MG noted.  For a relationship (friendship or love) to grow, it must not remain static.  And this was certainly Jack's point.  But think of this another way: even if nothing really changed during the nearly 20 years they were together, that single memory born in the summer of 63 was enough to sustain them throughout the entire time.  It shows us the power of that vision -- and I think the memory continued to live on in Ennis even after Jack had passed away.  Perhaps it was all the more stronger...

 

[tpe]

Wonderful posts here everywhere by everyone.

Absolutely, it didn't go anywhere . . . .  Where could it go?

There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours. They believed themselves invisible . . . .

Aren't we (and the boys) presented with what amounts to a perfect reality? A perfect solitary world with no outside intrusions, undesirable elements. Part of the conundrum the boys faced is when you've seen (or lived) perfection - where DO you go? How do you go? No wonder they never went back, the vision is destroyed by returning. The best you can do is faithfully maintain a sacred relic (the shirts) as Jack did.

What we got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that . . .

Like the vision of the Garden of Eden, a vision of perfection on earth.

It is a perfect reality.  A reality that remains vivid but is always hermetic.  That is why they never came back, IMO.  It was the moment when friendship grew into love, and from that love came understanding, if not the courage to live it out under open skies.