Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

[tpe]

Certainly they happened upon the perfect setting, indeed, a "garden of eden". Like Jack says, "Everything is built on that", that  experience on that  isolated, majestic place, Brokeback Mt., their dreams, their love and all that came with it. good and bad,   Just two cowboys with both their heads literally in the clouds, looking down upon ordinary life , they were living an extraordinary exisitence up there, the friendship, the excellent compatability in the bedroll, and a perfect love, all come out of this perfect setting called Brokeback Mt...

  I think Jack thought mostly in terms of a continuence of his experience and continued to do so throughout the relationship , a hope to build on what began up there culminating into a sweet life with Ennis., while Ennis saw  the experience as a "one shot" experience come to an end. His was a broken road filled with doubt, fear and confusion, therefore he needed distance. Feared what he could not understand or completly accept about himself and his relationship with Jack. He was indeed "stuck", in the  bliss of Brokeback Mt. 1963.

IN a sense, I think Ennis understood in the alley way that the one shot thing had turned into something he deeply cared about, and it tore him apart thinking that he let Jack go.

But for practically 3/4 of a summer, they lived as close to perfection as it comes.  They were alone , one on one up there just being Jack and Ennis , accepting each other as is. Imo , they were each other's best friend AND each other's worst enemy in the way they figured this thing. Like oil and water, they were shaken  to blend together by a force of nature while on Brokeback, within that mix, friendship, sex and  then love sustained them, then seperated again after they return to the real  stagnant world.
  Personality did'nt change much, Ennis still stubborn and reserved, Jack still open and full of hope. Outside of that, it was  the love  and friendship that manifested itself into their seperate lives and kept them  coming back together for 20 years. Yes, the Mt. was perfection, but they were not as human beings, yet love found them within their own space and place.  My take.

I think all their trips to the mountains served as memorials/commemorations of the ideal of 63.  They tried to repacture the essence, even though they understood that they could never go back.  As I said in the previous post, the line that divided friendship and love was crossed, and each of them understood that as much as they cared for each other on many levels, the wareness that a line had been crossed had robbed them of some unique innocence.

[jackster]

Tony, I’m sorry I seem to have veered this off your topic here a bit - but I really love what everyone has written here (you, tpe, MG, ain’t, BT, LC) about the vision of perfection up on the mountain. What a great parable Annie (and Ang, et al) has left us. I hope my use of the term “parable’ won’t offend, but it seems to me that is what it truly is and why it is we are all still in the very real grip of this story years and years on. It speaks to our daily lives, our imagined lives, our wished for lives, and our feared for lives.

The enjoyment in reading what and how you all see and understand this story is immense.

[lancecowboy]

Before anything else, they had to settle the struggle between themselves.   Their fear of society, (more Ennis's fear) was played out between the both of them.   Didn't the dream of BBM, turned out to be a road block, than a beacon of hope.  There were no natural progression in the relationship, from the excitement of a new relationship that turns to the hardwork of keeping the relationship.  Everytime they met they pick up where they left off, the "'63 state of mind", as the year past them by. 

Personal note:  I've been in a relationship now for 8 years, we think of  with fondness of how we met, and think of how it felt, but the ensuing years was understanding each others, tears, arguments, love,  the hard work, and knowing we both want what we have.  Was it like for Jack and Ennis?  It was too much time apart, and when together, they spent a lot of time just catching up. 

It all came out in the final confrontation, "the damn few times we were together in twenty years".  They deeply love each other, but were afraid of that love being rooted, not understanding it already was.   

There is never enough time, to be in all the topics, and post all my thoughts. I love the discussion in this topic, and I love this in particular, manhattangirl. Thank you for sharing a personal and deeply meaningful part of yourself.

I love the image of Brokeback Mountain as the roadblock on the journey of their relationship to discover each other. As we discussed before, one of the major problems between Ennis and Jack was their lack of verbal communication, even though they understood instinctive how each other felt, often times, they never truly discussed their lives together, except for the oblique conversations by the river. They never struggled together, as you said. They simply hid in the mountains together. Jack wanted to get out into the real world, but Ennis was too afraid. They hit this roadblock. What to do?

I believe every relationship, as Tony asserted in the topic title...progresses and evolves. And as tpe pointed out, cannot remain static. A stagnant relationship will not last as soon as someone evolves to a higher plane, and that is what love is suppose to do, lifting us higher. So a stagnant relationship is not a loving relationship. It has to change with love, not stay the same with fear. But the change, I think, has to come with love, as the two shirts did for Ennis, and not with force, as the last meeting turned into a confrontation. How we evolve a relationship is just as important as whether it moves along its natural course or not.

JMHO.

[Tony]

I hope my use of the term “parable’ won’t offend, but it seems to me that is what it truly is and why it is we are all still in the very real grip of this story years and years on. It speaks to our daily lives, our imagined lives, our wished for lives, and our feared for lives.

     Dear Jackster - I had never thought of the story as a parable, but it does have those elements there that make it so very real on a day-to-day basis, which is essential to a parable.  Someone on another thread has criticized the movie for selling a "Hollywood" version of love that is destructive and phony, in that it is unattainable and unrealistically romantic.
   But the various displays of realism (from Ennis kicking the box behind the girls on the swing set, to Jack's failure with the rodeo clown, to his not catching the keys tossed to him by his father-in-law), all add up to day-to-day humanity, which is part of a parable's realism.  It may be the epic saga, which CAN be romanticized has been combined with the parable genre and THAT's what kicked our hind parts.
   

[Tony]

  For a relationship (friendship or love) to grow, it must not remain static.  And this was certainly Jack's point. 
 

     Several people are agreeing, here, that relationships must not stay the same.  If this means adapting as things come along, am sure that is so, but if what is meant is some kind of "ever-onward progress", like there HAS to be change, am dragging my heels on this one.  Am a great believer in, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
    As for quoting Thomas above, yes, Jack wanted change.  Of a certain kind, to a ranch for the two of them.  It's just as likely, having gotten that change, he then would want....stasis.  Stability.
    Am not splitting hairs, here.  Change can be best followed by settling down and enjoying what has been achieved.  Adapting is normal.  But always trying for better, always supposing there IS better, is a modernism that leaves us always discontent.  IMO, if Jack got his ranch with Ennis, he'd want the same sense of forever that was the illusion on the mountain, but could be found as real, at last.  No further change needed.  Except Ennis should occasionally bottom, to annoy Aintfoolin.  Other than that ---stasis, IMO, is what Jack would then want.

[babytammy7]

Yes, there is something in what MG noted.  For a relationship (friendship or love) to grow, it must not remain static.  And this was certainly Jack's point.  But think of this another way: even if nothing really changed during the nearly 20 years they were together, that single memory born in the summer of 63 was enough to sustain them throughout the entire time.  It shows us the power of that vision -- and I think the memory continued to live on in Ennis even after Jack had passed away.  Perhaps it was all the more stronger...

 

I totally agree, Thomas. Gorgeous post. I quote word by word. I think that that vision was so powerful that Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered there, not where his mama was gonna be, not in the familiar place with Lureen or Bobby, his son, but up there in BBM, a place where he spent a real little time, and that place was his favorite one. 20 years of relationship, 39 years of life, and his favorite place was again one where he only spent what? 2 months? That was his favorite place because that was his favorite memory, BBM and Ennis in BBM, and the sweet, free, caring Ennis of BBM. For me Jack wanting his ashes there is as powerful as the shirts!! He spoke about BBM to Lureen a lot of times, he kept dreaming about that place, he remember clearly that DE with all its details. Jack kept living in BBM, even though he left 20 years ago, and I think that for Ennis it was the same. So you're right friend. The proof is that Ennis dreamt about Jack when Jack died. But he didn't dream about Jack when he was 20, or 25, or 30 or 38. He dreamt about 19 years old Jack, and he dreamt that they were around a campfire up in BBM!! That's say it all for me. Amazing how the memory of that tiny bit of time in a mountain  sustained them throughout a lifetime and beyond. Hey, I think that was love, right?  :\'( :\'( :\'(

[babytammy7]

     Several people are agreeing, here, that relationships must not stay the same.  If this means adapting as things come along, am sure that is so, but if what is meant is some kind of "ever-onward progress", like there HAS to be change, am dragging my heels on this one.  Am a great believer in, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
    As for quoting Thomas above, yes, Jack wanted change.  Of a certain kind, to a ranch for the two of them.  It's just as likely, having gotten that change, he then would want....stasis.  Stability.
    Am not splitting hairs, here.  Change can be best followed by settling down and enjoying what has been achieved.  Adapting is normal.  But always trying for better, always supposing there IS better, is a modernism that leaves us always discontent.  IMO, if Jack got his ranch with Ennis, he'd want the same sense of forever that was the illusion on the mountain, but could be found as real, at last.  No further change needed.  Except Ennis should occasionally bottom, to annoy Aintfoolin.  Other than that ---stasis, IMO, is what Jack would then want.

Agree too friend, because in a way Jack didn't want change. I mean, you can think that he wanted change because he wanted to live with Ennis and quit those fishing trips...but for me he just wanted what he got in BBM. Up there he lived with Ennis, he saw Ennis every day and he almost slept with Ennis every night, so then, later, after the reunion, he just wanted back what they had in BBM. The change had been precisely marry and get away from each other. Jack wanted, uh, you say stasis, so that, stasis..he wanted the things just to be like they were in BBM and don't change ever. JMHO!! 

Did I express myself well?  I hate my English. 

[Tony]

  Yes.

[manhattangirl]

     Several people are agreeing, here, that relationships must not stay the same.  If this means adapting as things come along, am sure that is so, but if what is meant is some kind of "ever-onward progress", like there HAS to be change, am dragging my heels on this one.  Am a great believer in, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
    As for quoting Thomas above, yes, Jack wanted change.  Of a certain kind, to a ranch for the two of them.  It's just as likely, having gotten that change, he then would want....stasis.  Stability.
    Am not splitting hairs, here.  Change can be best followed by settling down and enjoying what has been achieved.  Adapting is normal.  But always trying for better, always supposing there IS better, is a modernism that leaves us always discontent.  IMO, if Jack got his ranch with Ennis, he'd want the same sense of forever that was the illusion on the mountain, but could be found as real, at last.  No further change needed.  Except Ennis should occasionally bottom, to annoy Aintfoolin.  Other than that ---stasis, IMO, is what Jack would then want.

I can't help but think this is like a loving engaged couple and the  woman planning on a life together, and the man, saying "Hey why change things now, it's going OK?"  The woman will wait, until their final confrontation.   Relationship either evolve, change, grow or die.  " You didn't want it Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, everything is built on that."  Things may not have changed between them, but the words were spoken, heartfelt, gut wrenching. 

We see Jack's transformation as the years went by, his changing appearance, and his demeanor, and the growing fear of his own life has reached a status quo.  He needed that "sweet life", and when it didn't happen, he drank and probably relived that dozy embrace over and over, he was stuck on Brokeback, but not by choice.   

Jack understood Ennis that first summer to the final confrontation, he knew this might be far as they would get, but then just maybe......Ennis would always pull him back to believing.

I feel we underestimate Jack sometime, he got it, he understood, he took the shirts, he realized that it might be all he would get.    JMO     

[tpe]

     Several people are agreeing, here, that relationships must not stay the same.  If this means adapting as things come along, am sure that is so, but if what is meant is some kind of "ever-onward progress", like there HAS to be change, am dragging my heels on this one.  Am a great believer in, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
    As for quoting Thomas above, yes, Jack wanted change.  Of a certain kind, to a ranch for the two of them.  It's just as likely, having gotten that change, he then would want....stasis.  Stability.
    Am not splitting hairs, here.  Change can be best followed by settling down and enjoying what has been achieved.  Adapting is normal.  But always trying for better, always supposing there IS better, is a modernism that leaves us always discontent.  IMO, if Jack got his ranch with Ennis, he'd want the same sense of forever that was the illusion on the mountain, but could be found as real, at last.  No further change needed.  Except Ennis should occasionally bottom, to annoy Aintfoolin.  Other than that ---stasis, IMO, is what Jack would then want.

Hello Tony.  I was deciding yesterday whether or not to say that a changing relationship doesn't mean moving forward.  I wanted to say yesterday that healthy relationships move back and forth, always testing the boundaries of the people involved. 

I certainly felt that the Last Confrontation was necessary.  The problem was not that it occurred; the problem was more about such confrontations not occurring more frequently.  As they say in the art of raising plants and flowers, if you are not killing some of them, then you are not trying hard enough.  I think some of us here have voiced the opinion that perhaps Jack should have confronted Ennis early on in the relationship -- it could have brought things to a head. 

[tpe]

I totally agree, Thomas. Gorgeous post. I quote word by word. I think that that vision was so powerful that Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered there, not where his mama was gonna be, not in the familiar place with Lureen or Bobby, his son, but up there in BBM, a place where he spent a real little time, and that place was his favorite one. 20 years of relationship, 39 years of life, and his favorite place was again one where he only spent what? 2 months? That was his favorite place because that was his favorite memory, BBM and Ennis in BBM, and the sweet, free, caring Ennis of BBM. For me Jack wanting his ashes there is as powerful as the shirts!! He spoke about BBM to Lureen a lot of times, he kept dreaming about that place, he remember clearly that DE with all its details. Jack kept living in BBM, even though he left 20 years ago, and I think that for Ennis it was the same. So you're right friend. The proof is that Ennis dreamt about Jack when Jack died. But he didn't dream about Jack when he was 20, or 25, or 30 or 38. He dreamt about 19 years old Jack, and he dreamt that they were around a campfire up in BBM!! That's say it all for me. Amazing how the memory of that tiny bit of time in a mountain  sustained them throughout a lifetime and beyond. Hey, I think that was love, right?  :\'( :\'( :\'(

Thanks Tammy. 

I think that Jack's wish about his ashes has something to say about the role of his love, sex, and also friendship with Ennis.    It showed that in spite of all the disappointments with Ennis later on, Jack understood that there was something more than just sex and the sensual element that kept them togeter -- it was a sense of understanding each other in a way that only deep friends can do -- exceeding even the understanding shared by casual lovers.  In short, what I am saying is that although they continued to love each other throughout the rest of their lives, I claim that love had become less physical -- less sensual -- and had moved to something akin to friendship.  I guess this is what many people mean when they refer to partners growing old in their love.  For in spite of all the misunderstandings and inevitable heartaches, they are secure in the knowledge that the love will stay on even as they move apart.

[aintfoolin]

I can't help but think this is like a loving engaged couple and the  woman planning on a life together, and the man, saying "Hey why change things now, it's going OK?"  The woman will wait, until their final confrontation.   Relationship either evolve, change, grow or die.  " You didn't want it Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, everything is built on that."  Things may not have changed between them, but the words were spoken, heartfelt, gut wrenching. 

We see Jack's transformation as the years went by, his changing appearance, and his demeanor, and the growing fear of his own life has reached a status quo.  He needed that "sweet life", and when it didn't happen, he drank and probably relived that dozy embrace over and over, he was stuck on Brokeback, but not by choice.   

Jack understood Ennis that first summer to the final confrontation, he knew this might be far as they would get, but then just maybe......Ennis would always pull him back to believing.

I feel we underestimate Jack sometime, he got it, he understood, he took the shirts, he realized that it might be all he would get.    JMO     

 I don't feel anyone is underestimating Jack here. He "got it" as you say, understood that this may not go in the direction he wanted in Signal and of course he hoped for the best after Brokeback. He felt the dozy embrace, read the reunion kisses perfectly ,saw Ennis literally change before his eyes in SNIT.  He knew Ennis in ways Ennis did'nt even know himself.
The thing is Ennis made Jack feel he was CAPABLE of change, by all means.  Ennis was doing alot of things  wrong, yes but he was doing alot of things right.

Their relationship did evolved, feelings grew, lives were changed ,and both were imo aware of what had happened, but Brokeback  continued to cast a giant shadow over the relationship in many ways. Each of them dealt personally with their profound  experiences up there, what they came away from it feeling about each other and themselves, the roles in which they saw themselves. All the elements of a good relationship were there as I see it, love, desire, friendship, a longing to be together , but in order for change to take place, there must be communication. Lance spoke of it  briefly in an above post. Imo, nothing can replace good old-fashioned verbal communication. Every lover wants to hear it, "I love you", "I need you" , indeed they were saying  it to each other only in gestures and actions which I don't feel was enough for Jack after some time.  It became almost essential for him.
Jack knew Ennis was  certainly no Shakespere, he was'nt asking for that, however, any   way Ennis could put it , in his own words, would have been acceptable.  Jack needed to hear Ennis's thoughts , what he expressed so well through actions  and gestures alone. Words have  the power to change, as we all saw in the confrontation , though this was a negative ,angry , frustrated Jack, perhaps thru that frustration, had he thrown in an a  good *god-da--mit, I love you Ennis* , maybe,  like a good meal, this would have stuck with Ennis, nourished his undeniable appetite for for Jack in ways never before presented to him and helped him to break down the walls of resistance.  What would Ennis think about that? and what more could Jack say or do?  Perhaps those words  would'nt have made a difference, but at least it would have left  Ennis something to chew on and Jack could have walked away in good consious, knowing he had said them.
 Jack gave Ennis an understanding of what he felt was going on, certainly within his right after so much sacrifice,  . Fear held Ennis captive, Jack loved Ennis, therefore Jack was held captive also.

I choose to believe that Ennis really wished he could find a way to change, but there was so much he feared for the both of them, he did'nt know how to.  Jack had waited long enough and still there was this one little tiny  step left for Ennis to take and Jack would have what Tony said so well ...Stability.  The sweet life. All the consistent perks of Brokeback 1963, Ennis by his side ...without the time limits. I think he felt, with everything they did have, togetherness would breed change. Maybe not all at once but over time... he could let it be.

  His hope was that one day Ennis could change , cross over that line , take that final step, break free of the  chains of fear,  unlock the cage in which it held them and take the leap to freedom with him. They were so close before fate intervened and took Jack , leaving Ennis with the tragic reality of never having  expressed his love for his friend and lover of 20 years and the difference it might have made. Ironically, thru the shirts, Jack had the last say in the matter. They said everything Ennis so desperatly needed to hear.  They spoke of a remebrance that the same  love they found on Brokeback, is the same  love  that's always been, as then , now, and forever.  My take.Thanx.

Hey Tony,
 There is very little Ennis could do to annoy me for very long, but bottom Ennis...? well now your toying with my fantasy...   Nah, just kiddin.  

[tpe]

***

Their relationship did evolved, feelings grew, lives were changed ,and both were imo aware of what had happened, but Brokeback  continued to cast a giant shadow over the relationship in many ways...

***

They spoke of a remebrance that the same  love they found on Brokeback, is the same  love  that's always been, as then , now, and forever.  My take.Thanx.

***

I highlight here points that I find to be particularly insightful to me.  Thanks AF.

[babytammy7]

Amazing post AF. You always got me open mouth and wide eyes. I love everything you said. Thank you. 

[manhattangirl]

I don't feel anyone is underestimating Jack here. He "got it" as you say, understood that this may not go in the direction he wanted in Signal and of course he hoped for the best after Brokeback. He felt the dozy embrace, read the reunion kisses perfectly ,saw Ennis literally change before his eyes in SNIT.  He knew Ennis in ways Ennis did'nt even know himself.
The thing is Ennis made Jack feel he was CAPABLE of change, by all means.  Ennis was doing alot of things  wrong, yes but he was doing alot of things right.

Their relationship did evolved, feelings grew, lives were changed ,and both were imo aware of what had happened, but Brokeback  continued to cast a giant shadow over the relationship in many ways. Each of them dealt personally with their profound  experiences up there, what they came away from it feeling about each other and themselves, the roles in which they saw themselves. All the elements of a good relationship were there as I see it, love, desire, friendship, a longing to be together , but in order for change to take place, there must be communication. Lance spoke of it  briefly in an above post. Imo, nothing can replace good old-fashioned verbal communication. Every lover wants to hear it, "I love you", "I need you" , indeed they were saying  it to each other only in gestures and actions which I don't feel was enough for Jack after some time.  It became almost essential for him.
Jack knew Ennis was  certainly no Shakespere, he was'nt asking for that, however, any   way Ennis could put it , in his own words, would have been acceptable.  Jack needed to hear Ennis's thoughts , what he expressed so well through actions  and gestures alone. Words have  the power to change, as we all saw in the confrontation , though this was a negative ,angry , frustrated Jack, perhaps thru that frustration, had he thrown in an a  good *god-da--mit, I love you Ennis* , maybe,  like a good meal, this would have stuck with Ennis, nourished his undeniable appetite for for Jack in ways never before presented to him and helped him to break down the walls of resistance.  What would Ennis think about that? and what more could Jack say or do?  Perhaps those words  would'nt have made a difference, but at least it would have left  Ennis something to chew on and Jack could have walked away in good consious, knowing he had said them.
 Jack gave Ennis an understanding of what he felt was going on, certainly within his right after so much sacrifice,  . Fear held Ennis captive, Jack loved Ennis, therefore Jack was held captive also.

I choose to believe that Ennis really wished he could find a way to change, but there was so much he feared for the both of them, he did'nt know how to.  Jack had waited long enough and still there was this one little tiny  step left for Ennis to take and Jack would have what Tony said so well ...Stability.  The sweet life. All the consistent perks of Brokeback 1963, Ennis by his side ...without the time limits. I think he felt, with everything they did have, togetherness would breed change. Maybe not all at once but over time... he could let it be.

  His hope was that one day Ennis could change , cross over that line , take that final step, break free of the  chains of fear,  unlock the cage in which it held them and take the leap to freedom with him. They were so close before fate intervened and took Jack , leaving Ennis with the tragic reality of never having  expressed his love for his friend and lover of 20 years and the difference it might have made. Ironically, thru the shirts, Jack had the last say in the matter. They said everything Ennis so desperatly needed to hear.  They spoke of a remebrance that the same  love they found on Brokeback, is the same  love  that's always been, as then , now, and forever.  My take.Thanx.

Hey Tony,
 There is very little Ennis could do to annoy me for very long, but bottom Ennis...? well now your toying with my fantasy...   Nah, just kiddin.  

All you said is true and beautifully said.   IMO, Jack couldn't be the one to slap Ennis in the back of the head and say, "hey I love you".  I always felt Jack tiptoed around it because, deep inside he knew or felt, Ennis really never accepted the fact, that he was a man.   I always wondered why he kept the secret of the shirts, why he always returned to Ennis, even after the nameless lovers, his taking up with Randall. 

Ennis may have feared society because his relationship with Jack, Jack feared Ennis because of the relationship with him.   Jack could have told Ennis he love him till he was blue in the face.  It had to be Ennis to say it out loud,  That's was the one thing I think Jack needed, the "sweet life" was just that way of saying I love you.

[tpe]

All you said is true and beautifully said.   IMO, Jack couldn't be the one to slap Ennis in the back of the head and say, "hey I love you".  I always felt Jack tiptoed around it because, deep inside he knew or felt, Ennis really never accepted the fact, that he was a man.   I always wondered why he kept the secret of the shirts, why he always returned to Ennis, even after the nameless lovers, his taking up with Randall.  

Ennis may have feared society because his relationship with Jack, Jack feared Ennis because of the relationship with him.   Jack could have told Ennis he love him till he was blue in the face.  It had to be Ennis to say it out loud,  That's was the one thing I think Jack needed, the "sweet life" was just that way of saying I love you.

I do think that Jack held back because he felt that this was how Ennis wanted it, and I do believe that he was justified in doing so.  Verbally, it seemed like very little was openly discussed, except during the more confrontational moments.  As I had said earlier, I do feel that their love sort of transformed into a deeper form of love cum friendship, which is certainlu much more than just sensual love.

IMO, Jack never told Ennis about the shirts because he was not sure how Ennis would have reacted.  On the surface, it looks like a form of sexual fetishism on Jack's part.  But I think it is much more than that.  The blood of course had everything to do with it -- it was like a compact, a love cum friendship sealed in blood.  For Jack to have revealed this to Ennis would have been to expose himself completely, and Jack was unsure if Ennis really wanted to see/acknowledge everything that openly.  So it certainly ties with your comment about Jack tiptoeing around Ennis.  Jack had learned that this was how Ennis wanted it.

[Tony]

    Dear Thomas - it's possible Jack kept the bloody shirts because they were tangible proof of love, from Ennis. In the "Fear of Love" thread, I may have made too much of the fight on Brokeback Mountain, or may not have.  That Ennis reacted violently, perhaps to their separation, was a hope Jack could cling to, that he had finally gotten a rise out of someone.  Someone cared enough to be enraged.  But to test that, for him, risked finding out that, no, the fight was not over love, over separating, but something else.  The solution was to take no risks, and keep those shirts, as a constant hope....there was unusual, tangled, difficult to explain proof, but proof all the same....Ennis had loved him.  A possible reading.

[babytammy7]

Yeah, like tony said those shirts were a proof of Ennis love too. I mean, those shirts remind Jack of that precious time in the mountain when Ennis was free to love him.

I've always thought that he didn't tell Ennis because maybe Ennis at first wouldn't understand and then maybe would laugh at him for being such a silly boy, keeping shirts like treasures in a total romantic way. But I think you all saw a deeper meaning than what I saw. I always wondered why he didn't tell Ennis about it in the reunion after those 4 years separated; and then I wondered why he didn't tell Ennis in some of those fishing trips, because maybe Ennis would have changed like he did after seeing them when Jack died. But Jack couldn't know that, couldn't imagine how deeply Ennis was moved by that discovering. I bet Jack thought Ennis would never understand it.

The fact that Jack never burned those shirts talks to me about endless hope and devotion. He kept hoping even in the worst moments, and at the end, even if he decided to quit, he kept "adoring" Ennis in the altar of his room through those shirts; because when a relationship ends that doesn't mean that love is over too.

I'm marveled at Jack every time.

[manhattangirl]

I do think that Jack held back because he felt that this was how Ennis wanted it, and I do believe that he was justified in doing so.  Verbally, it seemed like very little was openly discussed, except during the more confrontational moments.  As I had said earlier, I do feel that their love sort of transformed into a deeper form of love cum friendship, which is certainlu much more than just sensual love.

IMO, Jack never told Ennis about the shirts because he was not sure how Ennis would have reacted.  On the surface, it looks like a form of sexual fetishism on Jack's part.  But I think it is much more than that.  The blood of course had everything to do with it -- it was like a compact, a love cum friendship sealed in blood.  For Jack to have revealed this to Ennis would have been to expose himself completely, and Jack was unsure if Ennis really wanted to see/acknowledge everything that openly.  So it certainly ties with your comment about Jack tiptoeing around Ennis.  Jack had learned that this was how Ennis wanted it.

The blood on the shirts to me is as close physically Jack could have Ennis near him, not to get too religious the body and blood of Christ comes to mind.   IMO, Ennis always had Jack. Jack was never that far away from Ennis.   Jack sought him out the following summer, but after four years,Jack still needed him,and went looking for him.  When Jack said "I wish I could quit you", he never did, not one time, he couldn't,  he belonged to Ennis.   

That's why I feel, it wasn't was up to Jack to say the words, it was on Ennis to acknowledge the "thing" was love, and to accept Jack, to look him in the face finally and say this is us, this who we are, and I love you.

A lot to to ask of someone as damaged as Ennis, but he got it finally.   

[tpe]

    Dear Thomas - it's possible Jack kept the bloody shirts because they were tangible proof of love, from Ennis. In the "Fear of Love" thread, I may have made too much of the fight on Brokeback Mountain, or may not have.  That Ennis reacted violently, perhaps to their separation, was a hope Jack could cling to, that he had finally gotten a rise out of someone.  Someone cared enough to be enraged.  But to test that, for him, risked finding out that, no, the fight was not over love, over separating, but something else.  The solution was to take no risks, and keep those shirts, as a constant hope....there was unusual, tangled, difficult to explain proof, but proof all the same....Ennis had loved him.  A possible reading.

The shirts also epitomized the fact that loving Ennis was a struggle, and Jack probably also needed a reminder of this throughout the years.

[tpe]

Yeah, like tony said those shirts were a proof of Ennis love too. I mean, those shirts remind Jack of that precious time in the mountain when Ennis was free to love him.

I've always thought that he didn't tell Ennis because maybe Ennis at first wouldn't understand and then maybe would laugh at him for being such a silly boy, keeping shirts like treasures in a total romantic way. But I think you all saw a deeper meaning than what I saw. I always wondered why he didn't tell Ennis about it in the reunion after those 4 years separated; and then I wondered why he didn't tell Ennis in some of those fishing trips, because maybe Ennis would have changed like he did after seeing them when Jack died. But Jack couldn't know that, couldn't imagine how deeply Ennis was moved by that discovering. I bet Jack thought Ennis would never understand it.

Well, wnat you said here is also very true, Tammy.  I don't think we have one single reason for why Jack kept this to himself over the years.

The fact that Jack never burned those shirts talks to me about endless hope and devotion. He kept hoping even in the worst moments, and at the end, even if he decided to quit, he kept "adoring" Ennis in the altar of his room through those shirts; because when a relationship ends that doesn't mean that love is over too.

I'm marveled at Jack every time.

This exactly what I mean when I say that loving Ennis epitomized a struggle for Jack. 

[tpe]

The blood on the shirts to me is as close physically Jack could have Ennis near him, not to get too religious the body and blood of Christ comes to mind.   IMO, Ennis always had Jack. Jack was never that far away from Ennis.   Jack sought him out the following summer, but after four years,Jack still needed him,and went looking for him.  When Jack said "I wish I could quit you", he never did, not one time, he couldn't,  he belonged to Ennis.   

That's why I feel, it wasn't was up to Jack to say the words, it was on Ennis to acknowledge the "thing" was love, and to accept Jack, to look him in the face finally and say this is us, this who we are, and I love you.

A lot to to ask of someone as damaged as Ennis, but he got it finally.   

Blood has always had a sacred as well as a profane connotation.  Blood as food is forbidden in many religions, yet sacrificial blood is also the sacred elixir that binds parties to a covenant.  The connotation is therefore both forbidden and sacred at the same time...

[Tony]

    Baby Tammy has asked everybody to look at a music video of the Dozy Embrace, as she loves it so much.  So do I, but I went to the SS and the changes in the film, and, for me, there is no question ---- Jack was wrong.

   Annie left a lot of open space in her story, and she has Ennis hugging Jack from behind, no sexuality, and Jack's conclusion was that Ennis would not do that face-to-face because "...he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held." And maybe they'd never get much farther than that.
That's Jack's sense of the Dozy Embrace.  It is not given as a fact by Annie, only as his perception.  And he was wrong.
  Ennis knew who he was holding, and clung to him and rocked him sweetly.  In the SS, he is humming softly, in the film, a nursery song.  And he spoke to him, chiding him for sleeping on his feet like a horse.  Those interactions show an active, conscious awareness on Ennis' part as to whom he was holding and loving on.
   But if Jack was wrong in his conclusion, and he was, we are still left, then, with an extremely important insight into Jack's thinking - he did not believe Ennis was accepting him as his lover.  And these misperceptions plague both of them throughout the story. Each was aware of extreme love for the other. Neither saw sufficient proof that love was fully returned.  They kept failing to read the non-verbal signals, which were all either were capable of.
   So friendship - they knew they had a once-in-a-lifetime friendship.  Sex - they darned sure knew they'd worked that out.  But Love?  They had no certainty of the other.  The same shy concealment of the shirts is directly tied to Jack's inability to accept the Dozy Embrace as meant for him and him only.   Jack was wrong.  The Dozy Embrace wasn't a half-measure from Ennis, all Jack could hope for or get.  It was one of the most loving embraces there could be, and if Ennis could not face him, it was not because he denied it was Jack, it was because he would have broken down completely.  Ennis risked it all, there, clinging to Jack, and rocking him protectively and humming.  My apologies for no IMHO on this one.  Jack was wrong.  Ennis loved him.

[lancecowboy]

    Baby Tammy has asked everybody to look at a music video of the Dozy Embrace, as she loves it so much.  So do I, but I went to the SS and the changes in the film, and, for me, there is no question ---- Jack was wrong.

   Annie left a lot of open space in her story, and she has Ennis hugging Jack from behind, no sexuality, and Jack's conclusion was that Ennis would not do that face-to-face because "...he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held." And maybe they'd never get much farther than that.
That's Jack's sense of the Dozy Embrace.  It is not given as a fact by Annie, only as his perception.  And he was wrong.
  Ennis knew who he was holding, and clung to him and rocked him sweetly.  In the SS, he is humming softly, in the film, a nursery song.  And he spoke to him, chiding him for sleeping on his feet like a horse.  Those interactions show an active, conscious awareness on Ennis' part as to whom he was holding and loving on.
   But if Jack was wrong in his conclusion, and he was, we are still left, then, with an extremely important insight into Jack's thinking - he did not believe Ennis was accepting him as his lover.  And these misperceptions plague both of them throughout the story. Each was aware of extreme love for the other. Neither saw sufficient proof that love was fully returned.  They kept failing to read the non-verbal signals, which were all either were capable of.
   So friendship - they knew they had a once-in-a-lifetime friendship.  Sex - they darned sure knew they'd worked that out.  But Love?  They had no certainty of the other.  The same shy concealment of the shirts is directly tied to Jack's inability to accept the Dozy Embrace as meant for him and him only.   Jack was wrong.  The Dozy Embrace wasn't a half-measure from Ennis, all Jack could hope for or get.  It was one of the most loving embraces there could be, and if Ennis could not face him, it was not because he denied it was Jack, it was because he would have broken down completely.  Ennis risked it all, there, clinging to Jack, and rocking him protectively and humming.  My apologies for no IMHO on this one.  Jack was wrong.  Ennis loved him.

Once again, my dear friend, you amaze me. Jack was wrong?! Ennis did not deny his love for Jack?! What?

  If, as you said, Jack's perception of the dozy embrace was wrong, and in fact, the entire problem with the relationship was based on this misconception, then it seems to make sense of the lack of Jack trying to propose the cow and calf operation to Ennis again. I have always wondered why this was never mentioned again. How can Jack give up on a sweet dream so easily?!

Given your insight, I would speculate that somehow, Jack always felt Ennis did not accept their love for each other ("I ain't queer....a one shot thing...) so he always operated within the relationship with that assumption. His proposal for the cow and calf operation, then, took real courage, and faith. When Ennis talked about Earl, he felt "shot down" once again. When Ennis rejected him after the divorce, it was further proof that in his mind, Ennis did not love him, but only used him for "fun". Did Ennis use him for fun only? Was the misery and divorce that plagued Ennis the result of a man who used his best friend only for fun? I think Ennis knew, and knew for sure after Cassie in the diner, that it was not just fun, but love. It may be that Jack thought it was just fun, or even verbalized this to Ennis on more than one occasion, to assure Ennis that it wasn't serious, so as not to scare Ennis off. Afterall, is this not the modus operandi that Christian used to get his men in Latter Days? So, instead of the speech that Aaron gave to Christian, Jack got the tale of Earl. It would seem the misconception was justified due to Ennis' own inability to articulate his own feelings.

I think, with some reservations, that I agree with you on the point that Jack was wrong, that Ennis indeed was aware of his love for Jack, but I disagree that he was wrong to NOT see Ennis' love. I think, Ennis had to bear some responsibility to his lack of demonstration of his love. It was a two-way street, block by gridlock of social pressure, personality, and circumstance. If Ennis did not have Alma in the summer of '63, I have no doubt that the story would be a lot different.

Thanks, Tony, for an interesting angle. And I think Jack was justified in his misconception. It was the reason for the twenty years of too much driving and too little time.

[FlwrChild]

Hmm, it's an interesting take, but I still disagree. I don't think that Jack was wrong. I also don't think that he was judging Ennis, just acknowledging what he was capable of. Of course Ennis knew who he was holding. Through all their times together over the years, he knew who he was with. But even so, he resisted acknowledging all of the aspects of their relationship, trying to tell himself it was just "this thing", that existed somehow outside of everything else.

And I don't think that he was necessarily aware on the deepest level that what he felt for Jack was love (I think that realization wasn't fully formed until after Jack's death) but I think he was uncomfortably aware that what Jack felt for him was something strong and outside his range of understanding. I think that Ennis was able to consciously demonstrate his love, even while trying to hide from the knowledge of it - he quit job after job, he endured a near poverty life style, fought against his own self-censure, and still showed up every time to be with Jack.

I agree that neither felt secure about the other's love and each did his share of putting on a brave face and treading only where he felt safe to do so. The final confrontation revealed some of each man's insecurities.

I also agree that the dozy embrace "was one of the most loving embraces there could be" and maybe Ennis was able to be that demonstrative and revealing of his affections precisely because it allowed him to maintain that thin barrier. And I don't think that Jack saw it as a half measure from Ennis. I think he recognized that it was a revealing moment, a dropping of Ennis's defenses and this is why he cherished the memory so deeply. And why he always longed to reconnect with those rare, open moments.

I just don't think that Jack believed that Ennis was using him for fun either, despite what he said during the final confrontation. I think he was frustrated by the idea that Ennis didn't need what they had the way he did, and he was also willing to acknowledge that he himself needed to be able to be with someone that way in a way that Ennis clearly didn't understand. "You have no idea how bad it gets", recognizing that in this anyway, they have a different center of gravity, if you will. 

As to why Jack didn't pitch the cow & calf operation again, we need to remember that he first proposed that sweet life in 1967, and Ennis gave him a very compelling reason as to why it couldn't happen. So he made the concession of getting together once in a while out in the middle of nowhere, both because he thought that Ennis was worth it and because he presumably thought that in time he might be able to change Ennis's mind. As is evidenced by the divorce scene, where he shows up certain that Ennis is ready to make a life together. And remember, that was in 1975. So the timeline fits a wait and hope philosophy on Jack's part, and once the divorce debacle took place, it's clear why Jack wouldn't bring his pitch back to the plate again. I'm not sure it's as much about how he thinks Ennis feels as it is about what Ennis would be willing to do.

So I don't think that Jack was wrong about Ennis because I see his reflection of that moment a little differently. So it follows that I can't see his 'mistake' as a factor in the problems they had in their relationship either. But I think that a lot of the points brought up by Tony and lancecowboy while looking at that angle are valid and fit with my view, both of their relationship and some of the issues that plagued it.

[manhattangirl]

    Baby Tammy has asked everybody to look at a music video of the Dozy Embrace, as she loves it so much.  So do I, but I went to the SS and the changes in the film, and, for me, there is no question ---- Jack was wrong.

   Annie left a lot of open space in her story, and she has Ennis hugging Jack from behind, no sexuality, and Jack's conclusion was that Ennis would not do that face-to-face because "...he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held." And maybe they'd never get much farther than that.
That's Jack's sense of the Dozy Embrace.  It is not given as a fact by Annie, only as his perception.  And he was wrong.
  Ennis knew who he was holding, and clung to him and rocked him sweetly.  In the SS, he is humming softly, in the film, a nursery song.  And he spoke to him, chiding him for sleeping on his feet like a horse.  Those interactions show an active, conscious awareness on Ennis' part as to whom he was holding and loving on.
   But if Jack was wrong in his conclusion, and he was, we are still left, then, with an extremely important insight into Jack's thinking - he did not believe Ennis was accepting him as his lover.  And these misperceptions plague both of them throughout the story. Each was aware of extreme love for the other. Neither saw sufficient proof that love was fully returned.  They kept failing to read the non-verbal signals, which were all either were capable of.   So friendship - they knew they had a once-in-a-lifetime friendship.  Sex - they darned sure knew they'd worked that out.  But Love?  They had no certainty of the other.  The same shy concealment of the shirts is directly tied to Jack's inability to accept the Dozy Embrace as meant for him and him only.   Jack was wrong.  The Dozy Embrace wasn't a half-measure from Ennis, all Jack could hope for or get.  It was one of the most loving embraces there could be, and if Ennis could not face him, it was not because he denied it was Jack, it was because he would have broken down completely.  Ennis risked it all, there, clinging to Jack, and rocking him protectively and humming.  My apologies for no IMHO on this one.  Jack was wrong.  Ennis loved him.

Jack wasn't wrong, I feel at this point (dozy embrace), he fell in love with Ennis.  There is a point when we realize we are in love, and this was Jack's.   Ennis embraced him, held him, showed him openly love that no one else had, (except maybe his mother), and Ennis took Jack with the same love, shown by his mother, the non sexual, unconditional love both men craved, and found in each other.

Why do you think that Jack held on to this memory, it wasn't the FNIT, SNIT, or even the reunion, it was that moment of unguarded openness, and love.  And when did he remember this moment?  The final confrontation, when things are seemingly falling apart, and all things unsaid were being said.  No Tony, Jack was not wrong, he was in love, in its purest sense, and wanted desperately to return to it, hold on to it.

[tpe]

    Baby Tammy has asked everybody to look at a music video of the Dozy Embrace, as she loves it so much.  So do I, but I went to the SS and the changes in the film, and, for me, there is no question ---- Jack was wrong.

   Annie left a lot of open space in her story, and she has Ennis hugging Jack from behind, no sexuality, and Jack's conclusion was that Ennis would not do that face-to-face because "...he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held." And maybe they'd never get much farther than that.
That's Jack's sense of the Dozy Embrace.  It is not given as a fact by Annie, only as his perception.  And he was wrong.
  Ennis knew who he was holding, and clung to him and rocked him sweetly.  In the SS, he is humming softly, in the film, a nursery song.  And he spoke to him, chiding him for sleeping on his feet like a horse.  Those interactions show an active, conscious awareness on Ennis' part as to whom he was holding and loving on.
   But if Jack was wrong in his conclusion, and he was, we are still left, then, with an extremely important insight into Jack's thinking - he did not believe Ennis was accepting him as his lover.  And these misperceptions plague both of them throughout the story. Each was aware of extreme love for the other. Neither saw sufficient proof that love was fully returned.  They kept failing to read the non-verbal signals, which were all either were capable of.
   So friendship - they knew they had a once-in-a-lifetime friendship.  Sex - they darned sure knew they'd worked that out.  But Love?  They had no certainty of the other.  The same shy concealment of the shirts is directly tied to Jack's inability to accept the Dozy Embrace as meant for him and him only.   Jack was wrong.  The Dozy Embrace wasn't a half-measure from Ennis, all Jack could hope for or get.  It was one of the most loving embraces there could be, and if Ennis could not face him, it was not because he denied it was Jack, it was because he would have broken down completely.  Ennis risked it all, there, clinging to Jack, and rocking him protectively and humming.  My apologies for no IMHO on this one.  Jack was wrong.  Ennis loved him.

Interesting take.

However we feel about the Dozy Embrace, I think we can safely acknowledge that people can be deeply in love without seeming to be open about it, even to each other and to themselves.

Love is a powerful and complicated thing.  In many many cases, we love a person in spite of himself and (more importantly) in spite of outrselves.  In many many cases, there is no need for certainty about a person when we love -- because, as the old cliche says -- love is blind to all the rest.

[Tony]

  If, as you said, Jack's perception of the dozy embrace was wrong, and in fact, the entire problem with the relationship was based on this misconception, then it seems to make sense of the lack of Jack trying to propose the cow and calf operation to Ennis again. this was never mentioned again. 

   Hi, Andrew - I think I gave the wrong impression, if anyone thought I was saying all the problems derived from Jack's getting the Dozy Embrace wrong.  Clearly, both of them just didn't get the non-verbal signals right.  I've mentioned before that Ennis going to sulk on the hill when they were told to leave the mountain early was based on Ennis seeing no overt sadness from Jack over their having to separate.  Which was followed by rage, when Jack continued to make light of that, by means of the lasso.  Jack seemed indifferent.
   Hmmm...that brings up a thought---what if Ennis saw the relationship as possible only as it had existed on the mountain-separate from time and space, and the next 20 years were only a concession to his once and only time of freedom?  That would make Jack's complaint - "All we GOT is Brokeback Mountain..." turn out to be a more significant complaint.  And his choice of his ashes to be spread on the mountain, a final concession to Ennis' mental fixation on that idyllic time, giving up and giving in to Ennis' limits.
  But I strayed.  No, all the problems didn't come from Jack not seeing the Dozy Embrace correctly (I stand by Ennis knowing WHO he was loving on, which Jack seemed to doubt).  There were too many missed signals on both sides.  In short, each felt their love was not matched, and therefore better kept somewhat hidden, as to intensity.  The worst event would not be final separation.  The worst event would be confirmation the other didn't love.  It would be too risky to find out.

[Tony]

I agree that neither felt secure about the other's love and each did his share of putting on a brave face and treading only where he felt safe to do so. The final confrontation revealed some of each man's insecurities.

    This was what I was trying to say, above.  But, clearly, neither knew the depth of the other's love and that is why I said Jack's perception was wrong.
That can't be so very radical an idea, since we do know  they both had misperceptions that crippled the relationship.

[Tony]

  I feel at this point (dozy embrace), he fell in love with Ennis.  There is a point when we realize we are in love, and this was Jack's.   Ennis embraced him, held him, showed him openly love that no one else had, (except maybe his mother), and Ennis took Jack with the same love, shown by his mother, the non sexual, unconditional love both men craved, and found in each other.

    Manhattangirl, my post wasn't as clear as I had hoped.  I was challenging Jack's perception that Ennis' embrace was kind of neutral and not directed towards him and him only.
   But your suggestion this was where Jack fell in love is way interesting.  Romantic love can be born of certainty and doubt, mixed together, luring the lover onwards. You did agree Ennis showed open love for him, but, in Jack's mind, there was still room for doubt. But that he would, himself, love, yes, that he could do, and that he could be sure of.  That might be where it happened, for Jack.  For Ennis?  Could we ever know?