Author Topic: Maybe you're a sinner (Read 98727 times)

welshwitch · « **Reply #150 on:** Jul 06, 2006, 06:22 AM »

Yes, this scene is all subtext and implication.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #151 on:** Jul 06, 2006, 08:20 AM »

Jack got Ennis to flirt,did'nt he? Perhaps we should call Dr. Jack F---ckin Twist!

frances · « **Reply #152 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 06:10 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Feb 23, 2006, 09:43 PM

Quote from: Ennis del Mar
Uh uh, speak for yourself. You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity.

Was Ennis telling Jack he was a virgin?

I read somewhere that in the intermediate script draft revised by J. Schamus Ennis's line actually was: You may be a sinner, but Alma's not yet given me the opportunity... (or something very similar to that).

That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say (in the version we know) that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.

tpe · « **Reply #153 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 06:42 PM »

Quote from: frances on Jul 12, 2006, 06:10 PM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Feb 23, 2006, 09:43 PM
Quote from: Ennis del Mar
Uh uh, speak for yourself. You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity.

Was Ennis telling Jack he was a virgin?

I read somewhere that in the intermediate script draft revised by J. Schamus Ennis's line actually was: You may be a sinner, but Alma's not yet given me the opportunity... (or something very similar to that).

That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say (in the version we know) that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.

Very interesting. I think the final version is much more effective -- and deliciously ambuguous, no?

frances · « **Reply #154 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 07:02 PM »

Absolutely. It increases that ever-present ambiguity.

tpe · « **Reply #155 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 07:06 PM »

Quote from: frances on Jul 12, 2006, 07:02 PM

Absolutely. It increases that ever-present ambiguity.

It is double-edged. And it hangs over them like a sword of Damocles...

NoReins · « **Reply #156 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 02:15 AM »

Quote from: frances on Jul 12, 2006, 06:10 PM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Feb 23, 2006, 09:43 PM
Quote from: Ennis del Mar
Uh uh, speak for yourself. You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity.

Was Ennis telling Jack he was a virgin?

I read somewhere that in the intermediate script draft revised by J. Schamus Ennis's line actually was: You may be a sinner, but Alma's not yet given me the opportunity... (or something very similar to that).

That would or could merely mean that he hasn't had sex with Alma. For him just to say (in the version we know) that he hasn't yet had the opportunity--period--I think implies that he hasn't had sex--period.

That's very interesting Frances. I think if they'd used that original line there would have been no room for discussion about whether Ennis was flirting with Jack. Much better as it is, I reckon.

welshwitch · « **Reply #157 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 05:19 AM »

Th implications of that ? hypothetical line would have changed the whole meaning of the scene, as it implies what Ennis hasn't had the chance of is hetero sex with Alma, whom he sees as his only possibility; it could also be read as his implying that Jack is already a "sinner" in having had hetero sex ( or indeed snorted coke, played in a boy band, etc) All Jack's mentioned is the possibility of going to hell, which can be achieved in numerous ways.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #158 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 01:36 PM »

It obviously implies that Ennis feels that Jack has experienced alot more "worldly" situations (as in a spiritual context) than he has . This may inclue sex.partying, drinkin......etc After Jack's comment about "fellas like me and you marching off to hell), He is speaking in terms of his mom's religious beliefs.But when Ennis says what he does about "opportunity" He is letting Jack know that he has'nt had as much of a chance to "sin as he has,but from the look in his eyes , he'd be willing to make up that lost time with Jack. this is MO.

welshwitch · « **Reply #159 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 03:58 PM »

I agree; he's been drinking and is feeling a bit reckless and wants to give the impression that he's "up for it" even if he hasn't had the opportunities Jack has. He certainly implies that the chance to be a sinner isn't something he would avoid.

ms.bluesky · « **Reply #160 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 04:08 PM »

i agree

BBBOY · « **Reply #161 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 04:10 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 13, 2006, 03:58 PM

I agree; he's been drinking and is feeling a bit reckless and wants to give the impression that he's "up for it" even if he hasn't had the opportunities Jack has. He certainly implies that the chance to be a sinner isn't something he would avoid.

Quite so Welshwitch. He certainly does not look like a shrinking violet as he says those words. There is that little smile pushing them out.

CherryCake · « **Reply #162 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 09:01 PM »

Quote from: BBBOY on Jul 13, 2006, 04:10 PM

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 13, 2006, 03:58 PM
I agree; he's been drinking and is feeling a bit reckless and wants to give the impression that he's "up for it" even if he hasn't had the opportunities Jack has. He certainly implies that the chance to be a sinner isn't something he would avoid.

Quite so Welshwitch. He certainly does not look like a shrinking violet as he says those words. There is that little smile pushing them out.

OOOH.... That's right he does that smile... also too, I notice he is looking right as Jack, trying to catch his eye, so to speak... Then he looks down.....

BBBOY · « **Reply #163 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 09:12 PM »

Quote from: CherryCake on Jul 13, 2006, 09:01 PM

Quote from: BBBOY on Jul 13, 2006, 04:10 PM
Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 13, 2006, 03:58 PM
I agree; he's been drinking and is feeling a bit reckless and wants to give the impression that he's "up for it" even if he hasn't had the opportunities Jack has. He certainly implies that the chance to be a sinner isn't something he would avoid.

Quite so Welshwitch. He certainly does not look like a shrinking violet as he says those words. There is that little smile pushing them out.

OOOH.... That's right he does that smile... also too, I notice he is looking right as Jack, trying to catch his eye, so to speak... Then he looks down.....

Ennis the innocent. perhaps we need to re-assess him.

welshwitch · « **Reply #164 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 06:39 AM »

He may be inexperienced - doesn't mean he's an innocent. He's lived on ranches and presumably among ranch-hands since he was ? fifteen.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #165 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 07:25 AM »

Right you are. He may not be a sinner but he's defintly under suspision!!

welshwitch · « **Reply #166 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 07:29 AM »

And "I haven't yet had the opportunity" suggests he's only waiting for it to arise. No, appear. No, present itself. No, come up. S**t!

ms.bluesky · « **Reply #167 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 04:02 PM »

i think that was flirty and very umm ennis

NoReins · « **Reply #168 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 04:08 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 14, 2006, 07:29 AM

And "I haven't yet had the opportunity" suggests he's only waiting for it to arise. No, appear. No, present itself. No, come up. S**t!

LMAO

gimmejack · « **Reply #169 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 08:37 PM »

Quote from: ms.bluesky on Jul 15, 2006, 04:02 PM

i think that was flirty and very umm ennis

Anyone capable of getting Mr. stoic DelMar to flirt like he was...deserves everything he got in that tent!!!

BBBOY · « **Reply #170 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 09:08 PM »

Quote from: gimmejack on Jul 15, 2006, 08:37 PM

Quote from: ms.bluesky on Jul 15, 2006, 04:02 PM
i think that was flirty and very umm ennis
Anyone capable of getting Mr. stoic DelMar to flirt like he was...deserves everything he got in that tent!!!

and Jack got what he wanted!

dalemidex · « **Reply #171 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 09:47 PM »

While there are many ways to get to hell, I do think the exchange between the two is 100% about sex.

Swearing? Drinking? Gambling? They did this kind of thing without batting an eye.

Lying? Disrespecting parents? Missing church? That's kid stuff to worry about.

Murder? Gluttony? Jealousy? Thievery? Drugs? Not these guys.

Nahh, "Sin" for an averagle 19 year old male in 1963 was S E X. And I think that's exactly what he was talking about.

BBBOY · « **Reply #172 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 09:50 PM »

Quote from: dalemidex on Jul 16, 2006, 09:47 PM

While there are many ways to get to hell, I do think the exchange between the two is 100% about sex.

Swearing? Drinking? Gambling? They did this kind of thing without batting an eye.

Lying? Disrespecting parents? Missing church? That's kid stuff to worry about.

Murder? Gluttony? Jealousy? Thievery? Drugs? Not these guys.

Nahh, "Sin" for an averagle 19 year old male in 1963 was S E X. And I think that's exactly what he was talking about.

Excellent observation dalemidex. You are right, back in the 60's about the only sin we could think of was sex. There weren't many other options then.

edgar · « **Reply #173 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 11:38 PM »

Quote from: BBBOY on Jul 16, 2006, 09:50 PM

Quote from: dalemidex on Jul 16, 2006, 09:47 PM
While there are many ways to get to hell, I do think the exchange between the two is 100% about sex.

Swearing? Drinking? Gambling? They did this kind of thing without batting an eye.

Lying? Disrespecting parents? Missing church? That's kid stuff to worry about.

Murder? Gluttony? Jealousy? Thievery? Drugs? Not these guys.

Nahh, "Sin" for an averagle 19 year old male in 1963 was S E X. And I think that's exactly what he was talking about.

Excellent observation dalemidex. You are right, back in the 60's about the only sin we could think of was sex. There weren't many other options then.

Especially in the United States, which is more conservative about sex than, say, Europe.

Especially in rural[/] America.

Sex in conservative circles was taboo even to talk about back then... Many parents would never have dreamed of talking about sex with their children...

I can remember growing up in a rural area in the 60's and a local radio station wouldn't play a certain song because it used the word "sexy."

So "sin" was a euphemistic way to discuss sex.

welshwitch · « **Reply #174 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 04:42 AM »

That was a totally fascinating post. Things in the UK must have been different even then - I was in London in the sixties as a student and no-one I knew was talking about sex - they were all getting into it. Same with drugs - I knew they were around and knew people who used them. Oddly the one thing people didn't do was drink much - partly because of having to get around on public transport, and because public drunkennness was much more stigmatised then than now. Watching BBM I was surprised by the assunption that they would drink constantly, and spirits at that, and would smoke, specially as much they did.

So their idea of what constitutes sin was related to sex because other things were't an issue for them, either because they didn't see them as wrong or because they didn't have access to/know about them. Makes sense and shows what a difference growing up in one place as opposed to another can make. I don't think it was possible to be "rural" in the Jack and Ennis was in 60s England - not so sure about the three Celtic countries, but I remeber being surprised by aspects of the same thing when we were in some southern and western states even in the 80s and 90s.

ksxks · « **Reply #175 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 05:55 PM »

Quote from: edgar on Jul 16, 2006, 11:38 PM

Quote from: BBBOY on Jul 16, 2006, 09:50 PM
Quote from: dalemidex on Jul 16, 2006, 09:47 PM
While there are many ways to get to hell, I do think the exchange between the two is 100% about sex.

Swearing? Drinking? Gambling? They did this kind of thing without batting an eye.

Lying? Disrespecting parents? Missing church? That's kid stuff to worry about.

Murder? Gluttony? Jealousy? Thievery? Drugs? Not these guys.

Nahh, "Sin" for an averagle 19 year old male in 1963 was S E X. And I think that's exactly what he was talking about.

Excellent observation dalemidex. You are right, back in the 60's about the only sin we could think of was sex. There weren't many other options then.

Especially in the United States, which is more conservative about sex than, say, Europe.

Especially in rural[/] America.

Sex in conservative circles was taboo even to talk about back then... Many parents would never have dreamed of talking about sex with their children...

I can remember growing up in a rural area in the 60's and a local radio station wouldn't play a certain song because it used the word "sexy."

So "sin" was a euphemistic way to discuss sex.

Very cool discussion indeed -- I am convinced they were both talking about sex, and they both knew it. I grew up in almost the same era, though in the city, and though we "did" sex, we didn't talk about it very openly. But I grew up pretty loose; can't use me as an example. (And also, the social mores made an abrupt change in, say, 1966, compared to 1963. 1963 was still the Kennedy years; 1966 was the beginning of psychedelic hippie and radical-riot years.) As for Ennis and Jack, the other "sins" didn't really apply to them, as dalemidex pointed out.

In any event, I adore this flirty Ennis so much, so that's what I want to think -- that it was a direct come-on to Jack: "Give me an oportunity to sin." I'm glad they decided not to put the Alma line in.

kathy

gimmejack · « **Reply #176 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 05:59 PM »

What Alma line? from the SS??? Refresh my memory please???

ksxks · « **Reply #177 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 09:24 PM »

Quote from: gimmejack on Jul 17, 2006, 05:59 PM

What Alma line? from the SS??? Refresh my memory please???

See above, Reply #153, about a draft of screenplay.

kathy

gimmejack · « **Reply #178 on:** Jul 18, 2006, 04:27 AM »

AHHH, TYVM! As TPE stated the delicious ambiguity is much better!!!

edgar · « **Reply #179 on:** Jul 18, 2006, 11:13 PM »

Quoting from my earlier post...

"Sex in conservative circles was taboo even to talk about back then..."

I guess I should have said that sex was more taboo to talk about than to perform. It was not long ago in America that a movie could show many killings and get a PG. It could show people having sex (as long as there was no frontal nudity, or maybe a breast or two, and some other limitations) and get a PG.

However, a single use of the word "f*ck" would get it an R.

(These rules are no longer in effect, especially since PG-13 came in between the two ratings.)

And since Ennis is so shy, his use of a transparent code to talk about his (lack of) sexual experience--and show interest in Jack's sexual experience--by saying "You may be a sinner..." was a very big step.